Battle Maison Discussion & Records

I'm wondering how this team will work out..?

Durant @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252, HP, 252 Speed, 4 Defense
Entrainment
X-Scizzor
Iron Head
Crunch

Dragonite @ Focus Sash
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Protect
Dragon Dance
Fire Punch
Dragon Claw

Mawile @ Mawilite
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Intimidate (Huge Power)
EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Sp. Defense, 4 Defense
Protect
Swords Dance
Taunt
Sucker Punch
 
I did a live record with my Doubles team (Dusclops/Aron/Kangaskhan/Conkeldurr) and uploaded it on YouTube.
In case anyone wants to see the team in action, here's the link;

Battle Maison Super Doubles Live Record


The video follows 17 battles in a row, from 201 till 217.
Unfortunately, there's no Walrein4 or Abomasnow in the video but I do get to face dual ghosts twice in a row, which is nice.
 
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I did a live record with my Doubles team (Dusclops/Aron/Kangaskhan/Conkeldurr) and uploaded it on YouTube.
In case anyone wants to see the team in action, here's the link;

Battle Maison Super Doubles Live Record

The video follows 17 battles in a row, from 200 till 217.
Unfortunately, there's no Walrein4 or Abomasnow in the video but I do get to face dual ghosts twice in a row, which is nice.
It says video unplayable for me ): would have been nice to see how it's done
 

cant say

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Just posting to vent my frustration at the pre-battle 40 sets. They're so unpredictable and manage to pull off the stupid combos they are intended to run when if you tried the same it would never work... I've already lost once at 38 in a 1v1 with Avalugg vs Greninja3 - I went for Mirror Coat since they all run special moves which would be preferred against me, but he went for Rock Slide, understandable given Avalugg's Ice typing, it's also Protean so I can Earthquake on the next turn to kill it, but he goes for Grass Knot and crits me to death (did calcs, I survive non-crit RS+GK) - and just now to last-mon Luxray2 - I had 1HP Gengar and 100% Sharpedo left (used Avalugg to beat Empoleon2), so that should be an easy DBond kill with Gengar, except Quick Claw activates and kills me... Sharpedo goes in which can tank a Discharge due to him having zero SpA investment and 2HKO with Crunch, except he gets ANOTHER Quick Claw activation, paralyses me with Discharge, I cop a full paralyses to stop me firing off the crucial Crunch, and to top it off / rub it in he gets ANOTHER Quick Claw activation to finish me off. I'm not a maths genius but my calcs have shown that string of events to be a 0.0006% chance ,u_u

I did a live record with my Doubles team (Dusclops/Aron/Kangaskhan/Conkeldurr) and uploaded it on YouTube.
In case anyone wants to see the team in action, here's the link;

Battle Maison Super Doubles Live Record


The video follows 17 battles in a row, from 201 till 217.
Unfortunately, there's no Walrein4 or Abomasnow in the video but I do get to face dual ghosts twice in a row, which is nice.
Damn I knew the team was effective but that video makes it look too easy! To be honest, I actually got a little bored and gave up watching :p
 
Just posting to vent my frustration at the pre-battle 40 sets. They're so unpredictable and manage to pull off the stupid combos they are intended to run when if you tried the same it would never work... I've already lost once at 38 in a 1v1 with Avalugg vs Greninja3 - I went for Mirror Coat since they all run special moves which would be preferred against me, but he went for Rock Slide, understandable given Avalugg's Ice typing, it's also Protean so I can Earthquake on the next turn to kill it, but he goes for Grass Knot and crits me to death (did calcs, I survive non-crit RS+GK) - and just now to last-mon Luxray2 - I had 1HP Gengar and 100% Sharpedo left (used Avalugg to beat Empoleon2), so that should be an easy DBond kill with Gengar, except Quick Claw activates and kills me... Sharpedo goes in which can tank a Discharge due to him having zero SpA investment and 2HKO with Crunch, except he gets ANOTHER Quick Claw activation, paralyses me with Discharge, I cop a full paralyses to stop me firing off the crucial Crunch, and to top it off / rub it in he gets ANOTHER Quick Claw activation to finish me off. I'm not a maths genius but my calcs have shown that string of events to be a 0.0006% chance ,u_u
I know exactly how you feel, pal. I still haven't forgotten my humiliating defeat against the derpy Eeveelution team encountered during the mid-30s a while ago.

There's a ton of Swagger in pre-40 sets, also, a move I hate seeing, and it seemed to me like a general lack of offensiveness in a great deal of Set 1-2 pokes, at least compared to the latter two.

Another reason I prefer getting the pre-40s done with ASAP is because they take with them CB Slaking3 and Archeops3, and while the latter can still be used by Skaters, at least you won't face banded Head Smash from that bird via general trainers. The fewer setup lead nukers, the better.
 
I'm wondering how this team will work out..?

Durant @ Choice Scarf
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Truant
EVs: 252, HP, 252 Speed, 4 Defense
Entrainment
X-Scizzor
Iron Head
Crunch

Dragonite @ Focus Sash
Nature: Jolly
Ability: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Speed, 4 HP
Protect
Dragon Dance
Fire Punch
Dragon Claw

Mawile @ Mawilite
Nature: Adamant
Ability: Intimidate (Huge Power)
EVs: 252 Attack, 252 Sp. Defense, 4 Defense
Protect
Swords Dance
Taunt
Sucker Punch
In general, Substitute or a coverage move is going to be better than Taunt for anything that can directly boost its stats to +6. Roar/Whirlwind users are very rare and should be KOed by a +6 attack (except for possibly Skarmory, which you just have to KO as soon as possible if it leads). You don't need to use Taunt to set up Sucker Punch either because the AI won't be that tricky about whether it chooses to attack or uses a status move. Anything faster than Mawile is going to use a status move regardless, and anything slower could just die to a +6 Iron Head.

Of all the sweepers you've listed, Mega Tyranitar with Substitute replacing Taunt looks the best - KO the first Pokemon as regular Tyranitar and then you can do stuff like MEvo and Protect to break a Focus Sash.
 
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NoCheese

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Updated through here. Sorry about the delay since the last update. As always, please let me know if you spot any errors or omissions!

As for as my own streak, am ongoing at 500 with Dragonite / Suicune / Mega Metagross. Definitely grateful for SimicCombine's suggestion of Mega Metagross over Mega Scizor, as it's served very well.

Had a ridiculously close call at battle 488 versus Cryogonal / Slurpuff / Medicham though. Lead Cryogonal survived Metagross's attack thanks to its Sash and froze it with Blizzard, and with Metagross out, Slurpuff was not the second Poke I wanted to see. I ended up needing a timely burn from Scald on Medicham to save me, and still barely survived. I think I've been luckier than average on this streak, with few runs of bad luck coming in critical situations (sure, the AI's had the usual runs of stat drops and critical hits and such, but rarely in places where I can't afford them). So though the team is clearly strong, and has a chance to go much deeper, I'm fully aware that it's also quite capable of losing the very next battle.

Looking back at 488, it's possibly correct to switch Suicune into Cryogonal instead of Metagross, since Scald is insurance against a freeze, but Icy Wind + Explosion on Cryogonal make setting up Suicune much less reliable than I'd like. Had I known what was incoming, I'd have absolutely gone to Suicune, since that keeps Metagross safe to come in after Suicune faints, and Mega Metagross destroys Slurpuff and Medicham. But more generally and against unknown second and third foes, having a fully healthy Suicune in reserve seems more useful than a somewhat damaged and not-really-set-up Suicune in play. Remember, the only reason not to go to Metagross here is the freeze chance, so when comparing Suicune, I have to presume a Blizzard freeze on the switch, and I risk being caught damaged and completely un-set up in the face of an Explosion on the next turn while I'm stuck thawing with Scald.

For reference, the battle is FLCW-WWWW-WWXF-8CNB.

Partway through my streak I also decided, perhaps foolishly, to decorate Suicune and earn it every possible ribbon for an ORAS caught Pokemon, so I'm now stuck with the silly contest ribbon animation upon switching in, but oh well, I figured a Maison hero like Suicune deserves some extra love, especially since I fully expect to use it in future generations.

Good luck on the streaks all!
 

turskain

activated its Quick Claw!
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Updated through here. Sorry about the delay since the last update. As always, please let me know if you spot any errors or omissions!

As for as my own streak, am ongoing at 500 with Dragonite / Suicune / Mega Metagross. Definitely grateful for SimicCombine's suggestion of Mega Metagross over Mega Scizor, as it's served very well.

Had a ridiculously close call at battle 488 versus Cryogonal / Slurpuff / Medicham though. Lead Cryogonal survived Metagross's attack thanks to its Sash and froze it with Blizzard, and with Metagross out, Slurpuff was not the second Poke I wanted to see. I ended up needing a timely burn from Scald on Medicham to save me, and still barely survived. I think I've been luckier than average on this streak, with few runs of bad luck coming in critical situations (sure, the AI's had the usual runs of stat drops and critical hits and such, but rarely in places where I can't afford them). So though the team is clearly strong, and has a chance to go much deeper, I'm fully aware that it's also quite capable of losing the very next battle.

Looking back at 488, it's possibly correct to switch Suicune into Cryogonal instead of Metagross, since Scald is insurance against a freeze, but Icy Wind + Explosion on Cryogonal make setting up Suicune much less reliable than I'd like. Had I known what was incoming, I'd have absolutely gone to Suicune, since that keeps Metagross safe to come in after Suicune faints, and Mega Metagross destroys Slurpuff and Medicham. But more generally and against unknown second and third foes, having a fully healthy Suicune in reserve seems more useful than a somewhat damaged and not-really-set-up Suicune in play. Remember, the only reason not to go to Metagross here is the freeze chance, so when comparing Suicune, I have to presume a Blizzard freeze on the switch, and I risk being caught damaged and completely un-set up in the face of an Explosion on the next turn while I'm stuck thawing with Scald.

For reference, the battle is FLCW-WWWW-WWXF-8CNB.

Partway through my streak I also decided, perhaps foolishly, to decorate Suicune and earn it every possible ribbon for an ORAS caught Pokemon, so I'm now stuck with the silly contest ribbon animation upon switching in, but oh well, I figured a Maison hero like Suicune deserves some extra love, especially since I fully expect to use it in future generations.

Good luck on the streaks all!
With the freeze risk, losing Metagross entirely (unless it thaws quickly) is a much larger threat than taking on the second Pokémon with a +0 Suicune that has taken some damage. Dragonite/Aegislash/Greninja is a different team, but even with Greninja being a lot worse at taking freezes than Suicune (sometimes risking dying, taking significant damage, or being locked into an unpreferable move as a result of the freeze), letting the Scald user tank the Freeze risk is nearly always better.

Cryogonal is also really weak:

252 SpA Cryogonal Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 33-40 (15.9 - 19.3%)
0 Atk Cryogonal Explosion vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 37-44 (17.8 - 21.2%)

A freeze followed by an instant Explosion (or more crits/freezes) is the only way you're going to end up without an intact Sub against the second Pokémon. Compare that to Metagross - if Cryogonal were to instantly freeze and then Explode against it (all its attacks suck and the AI likes exploding), you'd be in an even worse position with a frozen Metagross unable to do anything against the second Pokémon. Getting Metagross frozen still doesn't guarantee full set-up for Suicune - it can still blow up instantly afterwards and leave you with only +1 or a Sub.
 

NoCheese

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turskain: Aye, upon reflection you're right. I guess I've been overvaluing a "fresh" Suicune.

Really, the set of things that beat Suicune when it's already in at 60% from Blizzard freeze + Explosion (no sub, Chesto Berry still intact) can't be that much larger than the set of things where Suicune is at 100% but still needs to switch in. And to the extent that Blizzard doesn't freeze and I get to Sub, Suicune absolutely covers more things if it is already in at 55% (high 20% estimate of Blizzard damage) behind a damaged Sub than it does if it has to switch in fresh. So even in the worst case scenario for Suicune, the risk of completely losing Metagross indeed seems a very poor trade off.

So good call, and thanks! (Though I fear this also shows why my streaks tend to be solid, but not elite level. Over a long streak, even relatively small negative expected value plays will eventually cost you. Time to tighten up my play!)

EDIT: The only potential complicating factor is the possibility of things that Suicune can't switch into and beat, can't beat if it's already in at 60%, but can not only beat but also fully set up on if I sac another poke to get Suicune safely in at 100%. This is probably more of a theoretical issue than anything, though. This would almost certainly involve something with 15 PP or so of immediate very damaging physical attacks (not just sub breaking, but 50% or so level) whose other attacks are much weaker. I can't really think of a good example, though. Certainly, getting a free switch into something like Barbaracle4 eases things, and depending on the hit and crit rolls often lets me get in one more Calm Mind than otherwise, but even there, I win and get to partially set up switching in and don't typically get to fully set up off the free switch. So this is more of a completionist monologue than a real objection.
 
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cant say

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I know exactly how you feel, pal. I still haven't forgotten my humiliating defeat against the derpy Eeveelution team encountered during the mid-30s a while ago.

There's a ton of Swagger in pre-40 sets, also, a move I hate seeing, and it seemed to me like a general lack of offensiveness in a great deal of Set 1-2 pokes, at least compared to the latter two.

Another reason I prefer getting the pre-40s done with ASAP is because they take with them CB Slaking3 and Archeops3, and while the latter can still be used by Skaters, at least you won't face banded Head Smash from that bird via general trainers. The fewer setup lead nukers, the better.
Yeah I absolutely despise Swagger / Confide, as well as Yawn as it forces me to switch which messes up my Sash / Sturdy and stuff. My strategy heavily relies on knowing the sets so I can Counter / Mirror Coat / Destiny Bond appropriately but I'm finding it really hard with all the random mixed attackers / stupid luck the AI has gotten against me recently. I would normally whip out my TFlame / Kang / Azu team to storm through the first 40 but that would go against my whole trophy run idea.

NoCheese I've done the same for my Gengar, I didn't think it would be that annoying since I don't switch a lot with this team but I found it tedious when trying to stall Yawn. The ribbon effect seems like a longer animation than the shiny one (albeit only slightly) and gets old quick. The shiny animation never even bothered me when I was switch stalling with Aegislash / Hydreigon..
 
How not to Build a Battle Maison Team

(Long post about purposefully underpowered teams ahead.)

I have been really busy recently, so my research on whether the AI counterteams is postponed indefinitely. (aka recording all the pokes makes it slow as all get out)

But I have not been too busy to see how "bad" of a team I can try to get to 50 wins in a row. Bad is relative, but so far I have found out that the drop off from the staples to mere decent pokemon is huge in how hard the battles are, even when enemies don't have perfect IVs yet. I have lots of pokemon in my PC just rotting, so I should put them to some use. I have had two runs both die on battle 29, with the old combination of bad luck and misplays, but both has pretty good luck to have not died earlier. Battle 29 is usually around the point that a poke other than Kanga makes its first appearance, for reference. :P

Try number one:

Yanmega @ Choice Specs
Tinted Lens
Modest 6 HP/252 Att/252 Spd
Bug Buzz
Air Slash
Shadow Ball
Giga Drain

This guy is kinda Greninja-ish in one way. He can spam STAB moves on lots of pokes. He is super duper slow. 95 speed is glacial when you have to kill or be killed. Still kinda can get the job done.

With that said, let me rail on about the evolution of the special sweeper lead, a battle tower staple for me ever since Starmie rocked the Crystal battle tower. Except Greninja, who is by far the best and you should use no other, the other decent/ok/passable/not-that-embarrassing ones have ups and downs. Latios, Azelf, Starmie all can do some trick to make themselves maybe better than Greninja in very rare situations, and also have great coverage. Sadly, no thinking is required thanks to our pal Mr. Ninja.

Yanmega is not one of these pokemon, never use it, unless you love pain. (Rocky, fiery pain)

Mawile @ Mawilite
Intimidate
Adamant 252 HP/252 Att/ 6 Spd
Play Rough
Sucker Punch
Iron Head
Sword Dance

The first pokemon I bred in Gen 6 was Mawile, because I thought he would be good in the maison. Silly me. I was tricked by the massive damage that I failed to realize that Burn is around every corner, and this guy is completely helpless versus every fire type and Earthquake in the maison, if you have not set up. Notice that sweet, sweet shared weakness with my first poke. He bailed me out a lot, but that came with a 10% chance of losing every time I called upon his power. I didn't even make it far enough to live the dream vs Cress2.

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Iron Fist
Adamant 252 HP/252 Att/ 6 SpDef
Drain Punch
Mach Punch
Ice Punch
Bulk Up

Unlike my first two idiots, this guy was better than expected. I know this guy can get to 50 somehow, even if he is pretty useless in the actual Battle 50. I looked up every moveset I faced for a chance to set this guy up, and he is like a bad Scizor- he can set up fully against a decent number of guys, but can get a boost or two and be at good health against some more. He even has priority (that doesn't hit Gengar, watch out for that. Or Crobat)

Last poke Chesnaught3 was able to beat my 40% HP +4 Mawile to put this team out of its misery.

Attempt #2

Zoroark Life Orb
Illusion
Modest 6 HP/252 Sp Att/252 Spd
Dark Pulse
Extrasensory
Flamethrower
Nasty Plot

This guy would be Timid if I didn't have a shiny Modest one just gathering dust already in my PC. He might need the power though. Zoroark is outclassed by a lot, unless you are going for AI abuse cheese, which I am. First AI poke with a Psychic attacking move is usually +6 for free, but some tanky pokemon will status you first, or set up Trick Room. Umbreon2 was more interested in Payback-ing my "Gurdurr" than using Stored Power, even with two Work Ups already.

Sceptile@ Sceptilite
Overgrow
Adamant 6HP/252 Att/252 Spd
Leaf Blade
Outrage
Drain Punch
Swords Dance

A fast mon that can take a hit and dish them out. Sadly you cannot switch directly into Thunder Wave, something I consider very essential when actually trying to make an actual good team. Try as I might, the fact that he already resists electric makes it tough to get free Swords Dances off on the mega evo turn.

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Iron Fist
Adamant 252 HP/252 Att/ 6 SpDef
Drain Punch
Mach Punch
Ice Punch
Bulk Up

1. Better than Conk at this setup business.
2. The Fairy Weakness is real.
3. Guts would help a lot, but 20% more damage is hard to ignore, especially when going for the Drain Punch + Mach Punch kills.

This team lost to the old Static Raichu paralyzing Sceptile, and then Slurpuff sweeping my helpless Sceptile and Gurdurr afterwards. I might have been able to pull it out if I could see into the future and know the AI would use Fake Tears even though it had me dead with Dazzling Gleam anyway, but sadly I could not.


What I knew but see more clearly from this experience-
1. Battles 1-10 are torture for teams not using the best of the best pokemon. Aromatisse1 is a perfect example.
2. Speed is very important to avoid that nasty status stuff.
3. Suicune and Scizor can set up on a lot of stuff. Everything Gurdurr can plus many, many more.
4. Defensive synergy wins games.
 
It doesn't help that Super Singles can be even more unforgiving than Multis. At least in Multis, the opponent checking your own poke doesn't mean your partner can't easily nuke it. With Singles, you either have an answer to the problem at hand or you don't, and oftentimes your answer is just a "maybe."

I don't have a Zoroark, or a Sceptile, but Yanmega and especially M-Mawile have done phenomenally for me in other formats (read: TR Triples. What else.) You're definitely right that synergy is crucial and it's the way merely decent pokes integrate extremely well into teams with goodstuffs. Dutch split skulls with a M-Manectric of all things.
 
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NoCheese

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Well, once again, I make a post in the middle of an active streak and boom, I lose not very long after, this time at 511 wins in super singles for Dragonite / Suicune / Mega Metagross. Yes, yes, I know there's no actual connection between posting and losing, but this game sure plays on the human mind's penchant for superstition. The good news, at least, is that I didn't lose to a misplay. But before I discuss the details of the loss, let's look at the team.

Dragonite @_Lum Berry
Trait: Multiscale
Nature: Adamant (+Att, -Spa)
-Outrage
-Earthquake
-Fire Punch
-Dragon Dance

Stats: 167 / 204 / 115 / 108 / 120 / 132
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 6 / 252 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 252

--

Suicune @_Chesto Berry
Trait: Pressure
Nature: Bold (+Def, - Att)
-Scald
-Calm Mind
-Substitute
-Rest

Stats: 205 / 82 / 183 / 110 / 136 / 107
IVs: 30 / 24 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 240 / 0 / 252 / 0 / 4 / 12

--

Metagross @_Metagrossite
Trait: Clear Body --> Tough Claws
Nature: Jolly (+Spe, -Spa)
-Iron Head
-Thunder Punch
-Ice Punch
-Bullet Punch

Stats (pre-Mega Evolution): 156 / 187 / 150 / 103 / 110 / 134
Stats (post-Mega Evolution): 156 / 197 / 170 / 112 / 130 / 178
IVs: 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31 / 31
EVs: 4 / 252 / 0 / 0 / 0 / 252

Like my biggest non-Durant streak from last generation, which used Garchomp / Suicune / Ferrothorn, this is a classic Dragon / Water / Steel squad. The Fairy type really put the nail in Choice Band Garchomp's coffin as far as massive streaks are concerned, but Dragonite is an easy replacement and a marvelously effective lead, and is objectively better for this sort of team even without the Fairy issue. Multiscale + Lum Berry make it very hard to OHKO or cripple Dragonite, so its usually easy to get one Dance in, and even where opening with Dragon Dance would be bad (such as against Tyrantrum4), Outrage gives enough power to OHKO or severely dent a lot of things without a boost.

Dragon Dance, Outrage, and Earthquake are all standard, but the final slot is more debatable. I like Fire Punch for its ability to shred Steel / Bug types and allowing me to OHKO many lead Grass types after a Dance or two without locking myself into Outrage. Extreme Speed is less exciting than it might otherwise be since I'm running the full 252 Speed EVs, so I outrun more after one Dance and everything after two, but is a decent other option, and looks better still with a bulkier spread. Roost feels a little greedy since it leaves me completely unable to hit Togekiss, but it can be very effective. If I replay the team, I may give turskain's bulky build a try, though it would not have guaranteed my survival in the losing battle. Interestingly, Extreme Speed would have, so there's a point in favor of experimenting with that.

Suicune is my favorite Maison pokemon, and just absurdly good in Singles play. It can switch into and set up on so many Pokemon, and incidentally solves a bunch of common problems like dealing with opposing Trick Roomers and Rest users. I've long been an advocate of the Substitute + Chesto Berry combination since it lets Suicune set up on many otherwise threatening physical attackers by Sub-stalling out their most damaging move, and Suicune feels nearly invincible behind a Sub at +6 / +6. Pressure is of course the only available ability, but it plays so perfectly on Suicune that it deserves special note. Sub-stalling out threatening moves before setting up would be far harder, and sometimes impossible, without the PP drain from Pressure. For example, Suicune can comfortably beat Barbaracle4 (though it can't usually set up all the way to +6), but without Pressure, this would be vastly more difficult. Normally, Hidden Ability releases are exciting, but if they ever release Water Absorb Suicune, I fear it will be permanently stuck on the bench in singles play. Foes with Water Absorb and related abilities can be irritating for a mono-Water attacker, of course, but Suicune can easily stall most of them out, so it's not too big of an issue. Dragonite draws Ice-type attacks, and Suicune easily beats many of their users, with Scald as insurance against a Freeze on the switch, so it's not hard to see why Dragonite and Suicune show up together on so many teams.

My EV spread is perhaps a little unusual. The 12 Speed EVs put Suicune at 107 Speed, which importantly avoids all Speed ties. Speed ties are really awkward for anything using Substitute because it makes knowing when to re-Sub more difficult and puts you at risk of your opponent catching you without a Sub when it breaks your sub going second on one turn and then goes first the next. Bumping to 109 Speed is another viable option since that also avoids ties and lets you outspeed Excadrill, and additional Speed bumping might be defensible on certain teams, but any investment beyond 12 EVs would force me to either lower Defense or HP, and since I want Suicune's Subs to be able to survive as many physical attacks as possible, the tradeoff seems unwise here. Note that Jumpman16's higher Speed spread is built around Icy Wind and outspeeding Garchomp4 at -1, so it's not applicable here. 240 HP EVs, coupled with an IV of 30, give Suicune 205 HP, just enough to make four 51 HP Substitutes and have one HP left over. Even with maximum investment, Suicune's Subs can't be any bigger, so not going all the way to 248 EVs (252 doesn't help with a 30IV) is basically painless. The 4 EVs in Special Defense are a "free" stat point since they wouldn't help in HP or Speed. If Suicune also had a 31 IV in HP, I could drop HP investment to 236 and also grab a bonus stat point in Special Attack, but I was really sick of soft resetting, so I'll have to accept that loss. Compared to my old slightly weaker Suicune from Soul Silver, these IVs and EVs give me two more points of Defense and one of Special Defense. This isn't a huge difference, but it can be relevant, particularly against attacks that sometimes break and sometimes don't break Suicune's Subs, such as certain STAB Rock Slides and non-STAB Earthquakes from bulky foes. Even one more turn of Sub survival over the course of a battle can ease the Sub-stall --> set up process.

While Dragonite and Suicune are the real workhorses of the team, Metagross is the glue, and its bulk, power, Speed, and typing really do a nice job of covering the weaknesses of the Dragonite + Suicune core. I originally used Mega Scizor in this role, as its ability to set up with Swords Dance is very appealing, but was dissapointed in the fact that Mega Scizor's unboosted Bullet Punch has only a 50% chance to OHKO Slurpuff4, which if it survies can OHKO Scizor in return and which neither Dragonite nor Suicune loves facing. SimicCombine helpfully suggested Iron Head / Thunder Punch / Ice Punch / Bullet Punch Mega Metagross as a better answer to Slurpuff, and I've been very happy with it ever sense. The EV spread is basic and boring, but effective. Since Metagross can't boost, it wants all the power it can get, and since there are so many threats running around with base 100 to 110 Speed, anything but Jolly with 252 Speed EVs is a losing proposition. Being notably slower on the turn I Mega Evolve can be frustrating, but thankfully, Metagross's bulk means it can usually take that first hit safely, and there's no room for Protect.

Iron Head is the obvious STAB choice, particularly since this team really appreciates the Fairy coverage, and the flinch chance can be very convenient. While multiple Steel-type moves may seem wasteful, the priority from Bullet Punch is too good to pass on, particularly since Tough Claws does a decent Technician imitation and gives the move a surprising amount of power. Ice Punch + Thunder Punch give wonderful coverage and both benefit from Tough Claws. I've been tempted to try to squeeze in Earthquake over Thunder Punch, but since Dragonite already carries it, and Earthquake doesn't get the Tough Claws boost, I've been reasonably satisfied with current move options. Earthquake would have saved me in my losing battle, but there's been plenty of other battles where the coverage from Thunder Punch has been a large help, though admittedly, Suicune's ability to dominate most Water-types means Thunder Punch isn't quite as important is it might otherwise be. With no recovery or boosting moves, Metagross doesn't often just switch in and sweep through the foes, but thankfully, that's not its job. Usually, just taking out one threat to Dragonite and Suicune is sufficient, and Metagross is very good at trading for value, knocking out one foe and getting a minimum of a Bullet Punch off on the next. It also loves to come in against a weakened foe after a teammate is KOed, KO with Bullet Punch on the Mega Evolution turn, and be happily running at full Mega Evolved Speed for its fight against the next opponent.

Play with the team is usually pretty simple. The order of preferences is as follows:
1. If Suicune can safely switch in and set up, do so.
2. If Dragonite can safely Dragon Dance and then attempt to sweep, do so.
3. If neither of these work, play according to the usual "which play minimizes my risk in the bad state of the world?" heuristic, though, as identified by turskain earlier, I sometimes fail to apply this part properly.

A few additional tips, some general, some absurdly specific:

Where possible, Dragonite loves grabbing a second Dragon Dance, and this is often worth sacrificing HP/Multiscale or a Lum Berry to obtain. First, at +2, Dragonite outspeeds the entire Maison, so things like a subsequent enemy Choice Scarf Terrakion or Manectric become non-issues. Additionally, +2, Fire Punch OHKOes bulky Grass-types that +1 can't, allowing you to KO them without locking into Outrage. Conversely, remember that neutral STAB Outrage still outdamages 2x super effective Fire Punch, so where you are only at +1, Outrage is often correct against bulky Grass-types. Don't be afraid to run the calcs when you're uncertain.

Where you can, avoid locking into Outrage on the first turn, since if the foe has a Fairy-type in reserve, they'll bring it in second after an Outrage KO. Steel-type follow ups raise similar issues. Obviously where Outrage gets the KO and your other moves don't, Outrage away, but don't lock yourself in where you don't have to. Related to this, it's usually safe to Outrage on the second foe, since if the opponent had a Fairy type in reserve, it usually would have been brought in after the first foe fainted.

Keep track of opposing PP with Suicune, particularly when trying to stall out certain moves. This goes double against anything with Destiny Bond. There is no feeling worse than miscounting or not paying attention and losing a fully set-up Suicune behind a Sub to a Destiny Bond.

Against Walrein4, your goal is to ensure you get Suicune in safely. Once in, Suicune can set up on and easily defeat Walrein, but if you switch in directly, you risk losing to a OHKO on the switch. Accordingly, Dragonite should Dragon Dance against Walrein. If you've Danced twice without getting hit by Sheer Cold, you have the option to Outrage and KO Walrein, but losing Dragonite is just fine, since that gives Suicune the free switch to get safely behind a Sub and start setting up.

Thanks to Multiscale, it's often correct to Dragon Dance against foes that can outspeed Dragonite and hit it super effectively. STAB Ice-type moves can often KO through Multiscale (and are typically set-up bait for Suicune), but Rock- and Dragon-type moves usually won't even with critical hits. This is particularly helpful against Veterans using Latios and Latias. +1 Dragonite can handle a bunch of the Maison's legendary Pokemon, so its very much worth getting beaten on that first turn to be able to then Outrage through the foe's team at +1.

Lead Starmie4 is a big issue, since with enough bad luck, it can hax its way through the entire team. +1 Dragonite outspeeds and OHKOes with Outrage, so if you are already set up, you are safe. On the first turn against a lead Starmie, I typically just Dragon Dance, since I'll survive a crit, and Lum Berry can cure a Freeze, but I'm dead to a flinch. This streak, I was lucky and didn't face many lead Starmies, but they always scare me. Metagross is a decent check too thanks to Thunder Punch + Bullet Punch, but flinch hax remains a very live issue.

Lead Rock-types, particularly those with good bulk and/or Sturdy, can be very irritating, weakening me for teammates, though they aren't huge threats all by themselves. They hit Dragonite hard with their STAB attacks, and if Sturdy, Dragon Dance + Earthquake doesn't get the job done. Similarly, most Rock types carry Earthquake, so if Metagross can't OHKO them, they'll hit it back very hard. Thankfully, Bullet Punch solves what would otherwise be big issues with things like Aerodactyl and Archeops. Suicune can't always stall out Rock Slide + Earthquake (though it often can), so though it beats most bulky-Rock types, where it can't stall out the most powerful moves it can't set up much, making it vulnerable to future foes. Regirock2 is especially irritating since it not only carries a Custap Berry and can be Sturdy, but it also uses Explosion.

Really fast foes in general can also be irksome, particularly when they have a chance to flinch or paralyze, though Dragonite's Lum Berry does good work in mitigating some of this. This makes Roller Skaters, who use lots of fast Electric-types, my least liked opposing trainer class.

I lost to a seemingly unthreatening team of Gengar / Nidoqueen / Manectric. Gengar led, and Dragonite took a Sludge Bomb while Dragon Dancing. It Outraged the next turn and OHKOed Gengar, and then also OHKOed Nidoqueen. Scarf Manectric was the foe's final Pokemon, and it KOed Dragonite with a critical hit with Thunder. I then sent out Metagross, which Mega Evolved and hit Manectric with Ice Punch. Thunder hit again, doing notably more than 50%, so Metagross used Bullet Punch the next turn, which took Manectric to a tiny sliver of health, quite possibly 1HP. Thunder hit again, KOing Manectric. I then sent out Suicune, and Thunder hit again, criting again, OHKOing Suicune, defeating me in a battle that looked completely safe after the first two KOs.

A few postmortem calcs are in order. Dragonite was at 123 HP after the Sludge Bomb. Without a crit, Thunder can't KO it, but with a crit, a KO is just barely guaranteed against my spread (123 - 145 damage). Mega Metagross's Ice Punch deals 64.1% - 75.8% to Manectric, while Bullet Punch deals 25.5% - 30.3%. So I had a chance at the 2HKO, but couldn't quite get there. The 2HKO from Thunder is almost guaranteed on Metagross (Thunder deals 48.7% - 57.6%), but a crit would have had zero chance to OHKO. Thunder can't OHKO Suicune absent a crit (70.2%-82.9%), but a crit is indeed guaranteed to OHKO.

What could have saved me? Sadly (or perhaps happily, since it means I don't have to kick myself) I don't think I could have reasonably played around this loss. Dancing a second time against Gengar leaves me dead to a crit and even if I survive, I'm at very low health and at high risk of losing my Berry to Sludge Bomb poisoning, making attacking after a single Dragon Dance the correct play. Accordingly, the only option is to look to my sets and spreads.

Spreadwise, turskain's Dragonite Spread of 52 HP / 4 Special Defense would have given me a decent chance to survive, but not guaranteed it. Assuming a similar damage roll on Sludge Bomb, Dragonite with such a spread would have been at no more than 130 HP (six more HP from the HP EVs, one more HP from the single extra point of Special Defense). A crit on Thunder does at least 130 damage 5/8 of the time.

Movewise, Extreme Speed on Dragonite would have guaranteed the win absent bad paralysis hax on Metagross. Earthquake on Metagross would have done likewise. So making a move change is tempting. However, while it's easy to identify changes that would have ensured a win this battle, there's a real danger that I'm forgetting other situations where my current spreads and sets served me better. One of the dangers in Maison teambuilding is overcompensating for an unusual loss, and I want to be careful not to do so here. Fundamentally, I know that the team is reasonably vulnerable to hax, and on long streaks, it's going to catch up with you. That doesn't mean it's easy losing to four hits in a row from a 70% accurate move + two crits at exactly the wrong times (a crit on Metagross wouldn't have mattered) + rolling just low enough on Metagross's damage rolls to miss the 2HKO, but it's something that, given enough time, will absolutely happen. So perhaps I should just accept it as a low probability loss, treat it as an acceptable risk, and not mess with the builds. Thoughts?


Proof Video: C9CG-WWWW-WWXF-BJHN

Note that while I'm considering giving this squad another run, I'm also tempted to see if I can find Mega Slowbro a home by pairing it with semi-crippling, semi-attacking Memento Latios. Memento plays very nicely with Mega Slowbro, solving the problem of Slowbro having to switch in while not Mega Evolved, and also benefiting from Mega Slowbro's immunity to critical hits preventing crits from bypassing Memento's stat drops. I played around with this a little bit with Accupressure Drapion last generation with only limited success, but Mega Slowbro may be better suited to the role.
 
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Jumpman16

np: Michael Jackson - "Mon in the Mirror" (DW mix)
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My best attempt at this involves changing a little more than just the variables, with x= Spikes (with Sash on Greninja), z= Scarf Durant and y being a DD-Return-Protect-Sub/EQ/Roost Mega Mence that can have an easier time with Spikes nullifying Sash/Sturdy as long as Greninja plays more like a suicide spiker that can also KO many Explosion users before bowing out.

With a more conventional team, leads like Crobat and Zebstrika would require a status absorber. Looking at the very thin pool of those, Chansey doesn't do well against strong Rock moves as you said, Gliscor would likely place too much of an Ice-resisting burden on Greninja, and Suicune would likely be too redundant with Greninja. Looking at these troublesome areas, it seems like that thanks to Fairy types, there hasn't been a proper replacement for something like ScarfChomp in past gens, which could switch in on a lot of the 110+ base speed mons and take care of them without majorly losing momentum.

This is where my creativity hits a brick wall in Singles; you pretty much have to use a lead that hits hard enough to preemptively KO stuff like a CB Tyrantrum, but you also have to switch in against all the bulky stuff that can status your lead and basically put you in a 2-on-3 situation. With those constraints, there's not too much left besides MKhan-Gliscor and Dragon-Suicune.
The more I thought about this, the more I liked it. Full disclosure—the primary reason I am avoiding the use of Durant is because "I didn't come up with it". Not that anyone would be deeply offended if someone were to say there wasn't all that much to come up with as soon as Truant was revealed as its hidden ability, but there you go. The more I think about it as far as this logic problem is concerned, the more Durant made practical, efficient sense beyond any issues with originality and creativity I have. Your slight tweaks are great, with Sash primarily for Aero4 since CH SE can kill on the switch, and spikes being a nice catchall for foe Sash/Sturdy stuff that Salamence can truly 1HKO (basically only Cryo4 and Gliscor4 aren't addressed by Spikes vs SR, and Sala always beats Gliscor4 anyway and "Cryo is why I want Sub on Sala").

I didn't *really* want to forego LO on Greninja, though, and could/would easily sac Greninja to Aero4 to get Durant in, to turn Salamence into a win condition at~+4 and Subbed. And with keeping LO, the main issue I arrived at was Jolteon, which requires a Greninja sacrifice for the same reason Aero did, and then you come to the problem of "well, if I use Protect on Sala, I'm left with DD, Return and...Sub? Where's Roost sigh". Didn't want to do away with Roost because many lead fighters Greninja has to switch out of are "win condition" setup fodder for Megasala, but only with Roost.


So I shelved the idea and went back to my "pert or zone or lum scizor with 252+ atk to guarantee ohko on aero..." line of thinking. The goal is to use standard Greninja (give or take a move) and Megasala (so sorry turskain but you're disqualified lol). I liked insanemaniac's thought process for the options but was looking for one solid one. VaporeonIce went at this the way I would have...I have like a book's worth of stream-of-consciousness theorymon thoughts.

I finally finally finally arrived (again) at this:

(its really the blue one but w/e)
Gastrodon (F) @ Leftovers ** KY
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252Def/4SpA/252SpD
Lv. 50 stats: 186/86/120/113/147/59
Nature: Calm
~ Scald
~ Toxic
~ Protect
~ Recover

Aero? Check. Electrics? Check. (Raichu can't even 2HKO with GK after Protect, fuck off you don't deserve to be 110 speed.) Gardevoir? Check! (Calm, Protect, and Recover allow it to stall out Moonblast after hitting with Toxic even with a CH, which is important since it doesn't discourage Moonblast which checks the rest of my team.) Haxorus/Garchomp? Check. (Excadrill failed here). Arti2? ...check please? (Protect on Sheer Cold, Toxic through Lum a couple times, pray lol.) Snorlax? Check. (I don't mind par that much against Lax, and if it's Immunity Scald will probably burn, have to be FP like a million times to not Recover.)

I had bred a Swampert but didn't like how it fared against Gardy. Recover absolutely sells Gastrodon in this instance, being able to be a poor man's Gliscor (which I'd use in a heartbeat if not for the hilariously glaring double 4x weak because it checks all the boxes, including Arti1 (fun fact: I have beaten Arti1 and its three ice moves with my Kanglicune Gliscor 1-on-1). Toxic is the best way to beat Lati@s (and Gardy), and I realized how much I wanted Scald to almost completely eradicate another kind of status in Freeze. I really wanted to fit Yawn somewhere but Protect is the best way for this set to deal with Arti1 (which beats Salamence unless I've done ~38% of prior damage to it so Aerilate Return can OHKO).

Feel free to tell me what Gastrodon misses, or don't and I can find out on my own and go back to the drawing board, or finally be motivated to actually use Kangliscune again soon. As for my streak progress:



(i wish there were an effortless way to make those pics smaller but I cannot be bothered to actually "host" these)

Would probably have been more, but this happened lol: 4GXG-WWWW-WWXF-AST9

If you're like me, you don't actually want to go through the effort to watch that, because maybe you're doing something else on your DS, and you may not even have Wi-Fi available atm, but it's a bit worth it, especially if you're paying attention to the nuances of how improbable everything was.

I'll be playing with Ninja/Sala/Gastro until I get bored or discover a glaring flaw (like Moonblast/Sub/CM/Rest Cresselia hating P24 and its thunderwave especially when it Traces Protean [Analytic wouldn't kick in on a Paralyzed opponent], that sure wasn't a "waste" of three days of SRing...).
 
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cant say

twitch.tv/jakecantsay
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Just posting to vent my frustration at the pre-battle 40 sets. They're so unpredictable and manage to pull off the stupid combos they are intended to run when if you tried the same it would never work...
Add Meganium2 to the list. I was down to another 1v1 due to Gengar taking out the lead, then being outsped and KO'd by Sceptile, Sharpedo was forced to Destiny Bond it straight away to get rid of it, which left just Avalugg. Avalanche is a 2HKO providing it Petal Blizzards both turns, except it instead used Double Team + Rest and stalled out my moves. I should have switched in Avalugg on Sceptile since it was the physical attacking set, then waited until Meganium was asleep to switch in Sharpedo to DBond kill it

All this pre-40 losing is really taking a toll on my self esteem, lol
 

turskain

activated its Quick Claw!
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
I've been nitpicking on EV spreads on a few occasions.

EVing can be hard, but with helpful tools, it can be a lot faster and less error-prone. You will want a damage calculator, and two very helpful tools for creating defensive EV spreads:

http://survivalcalc.appspot.com/
http://pokestudio.altervista.org/defevs.php

Pokémon Attack Survival Calculator is exactly what it sounds like - it is a tool to calculate defensive EV spreads for surviving specific attacks, and it can do pretty much everything.

PHP Defense Effort Values is a simpler tool for calculating efficient defensive spreads for general bulk.



I'll get straight to the point, so we'll assume you know what you're looking to do. Let's use the Gastrodon spread I use as an example - the goal was to survive special STAB Grass attacks with Assault Vest, with the rest of the EVs invested into Defense. First, I arbitrarily cut Special Attack investment to 220 for 154 Special Attack to maximize the gains from using a positive nature, since I wanted as many spare defensive EVs as I could afford. After doing calcs on select attacks such as Typhlosion4 Solar Beam, Trevenant4 Energy Ball, Gourgeist3 Energy Ball and Ludicolo4 Giga Drain (note: Ludicolo4 doesn't actually have Giga Drain, but it didn't matter much since its imaginary power is very similar to the other attacks), I found that surviving Typh4 Solar Beam would require a lot more investment than I liked and decided that surviving the latter three STAB attacks was as far as I would go.

Inputting the appropriate values into Survival Calculator using Gourgeist3 Wise Glasses Energy Ball (the strongest of the three similarly powered attacks I was considering) as the reference attack, the calculator suggested a spread of 180 HP / 92 Def / 12 SDef - I did some manual calcs, and the spread seemed satisfactory, so I went with it. This was initially for a Rain team in Triples.

After using 180/0/92/220/12/0 Gastrodon in Doubles for a streak, some of the initial assumptions were wrong and adjusted accordingly:
-Ludicolo4 was not a relevant threat because it prefers to target Talonflame with Hydro Pump, is OHKO'd by Brave Bird, and has Grass Knot instead of Giga Drain
-Gourgeist3 wasn't too relevant because of its rarity
-220+ SAtk Gastrodon Earth Power OHKOs Jolteon4 15/16 of the time - I had arbitrarily cut Special Attack, but it turned out to be a suitable power target (OHKOing it every time would require 244 SAtk EVs).

Surviving Trevenant4 Energy Ball was still relevant, as it holds an Iron Ball to outspeed Gastrodon under Trick Room and is relatively common. The attack was slightly less powerful than the other two, so I could move 16 EVs from HP to Def to hit 207 HP to minimize residual damage (which Gastrodon was suffering frequently - 209 HP is one above a multiplier of 16, maximizing residual damage, while 207 is one below a multiplier of 16, minimizing residual damage) and slightly increase physical bulk while still surviving Trevenant4 Energy Ball. As a result, Gourgeist3 Energy Ball has a 1/16 chance to KO.

I checked the sanity of the tweaked 164/0/108/220/12/0 spread using PHP Defense Effort Values - inputting the appropriate values and checking "Sandstorm" for the Assault Vest effect and moving the slider to the right, 164/108/12 was returned. I was satisfied with this, and went and EV'd Clear Smog Gastrodon with the new spread.



For another example: Rotations Dragonite with a spread of 212/84/12/0/12/188. The speed target remained the same, but I wanted to survive Sawk4 Stone Edge and STAB Blizzards if possible - I also wanted to be able to use Substitute four times at full HP and maximize the durability of the substitute, and maximize Roost recovery by having an odd HP number (recovery moves that heal 50% of the Pokémon's health round up, so a 174-HP Dragonite and 173-HP Dragonite both recover an identical amount of health). I initially cut attack heavily to an arbitrary 44 Atk EVs to free up defensive EVs to play with; with the available defenses, it was possible to achieve all of the goals and survive Sawk4 Stone Edge and Articuno1 Blizzard. I then checked if the Attack cut cost any KOs and found out that Volcarona required 84 Attack EVs to OHKO at +2, so I increased Attack to that and started compromising on defenses. With 84 Atk and 188 Spe, there were 236 defensive EVs to go around. After calcing the relevant attacks, 228 HP / 4 Def / 4 SDef failed to survive Sawk4 Stone Edge; the minimum investment required for it was 212 HP / 12 Def, which led to the final spread of 212 HP / 12 / 12 SDef which also conveniently survived Articuno1 Blizzard 15/16 of the time. 212 HP also hit 193 HP for four 48HP Substitutes, maximizing their durability.

I didn't use the defense EV calculators for this spread since it turned out to be simple and finished it in manual calculations on the seat - but to check it now, I input the appropriate attacks (Sawk4 Life Orb Mold Breaker Stone Edge and Articuno1 Blizzard) into Survival Calculator, which returns 212 HP / 12 Def / 12 SDef. Manual EVing can work perfectly fine while being fast, but sanity checking with the calculators anyway helps spot mistakes and optimize the spreads further.



I'll now nitpick other players' EV spreads using some of the methods I've demonstrated. I hope you'll find the criticism constructive.



First, Jumpman's classic Icy Wind Suicune with 196/0/252/0/0/60. It is EV'd to survive +2 Garchomp CH EQ.

Inputting this attack into Survival Calculator, it instantly returns 236HP/212Def which still survives the attack while having 5 more HP (a direct increase in special bulk) and only marginally less general physical bulk.



The second example is VaporeonIce's Durant spread of 220/4/108/0/84/92, which aims to survive two Carbink4 Power Gems, Breloom4 CH Focus Punch, and additionally survives Blaziken4 Flame Charge. As Blaziken4 Flame Charge is the stronger attack, it is used as the comparative attack.

Inputting the values into Survival Calculator (50.01 in the "percentage of HP left" field instead of the default 0.01 to calculate for avoiding a 2HKO instead of avoiding an OHKO), it returns a spread of 252/116/44 with Flame Charge dealing ~96% max.

We can also calc something else fun regarding this Durant. Breloom4 CH FP survival was an important target in addition to Carbink4 Power Gem, and after Speed was cut, there were plenty of EVs to accomplish both - but what if we could not cut Speed so much and had to compromise on these two attacks with a lesser amount of EVs to survive them?

Going back to Survival Calculator, let's input Breloom4 CH Focus Punch as the comparative attack instead of the stronger Flame Charge - set the Damage Multiplier field to 1.5 for a critical hit. Check "Survive Comparative Attack" and then press Find Minimum EVs, and we see that 252HP/44Def/44SDef - or 340 total defensive EVs would be the minimum investment required to achieve both of these goals.

Now, I don't know of a better spread for this Durant - the existing spread is already very good. You could change Flame Charge into the main attack, and opt to maximize special bulk with the rest of the EVs - in fact, if you do this, it returns 220/108/84, the exact spread of VaporeonIce's Durant that he arrived at by doing damage calculations by hand! Note that you can and should use both manual calculations and these calculators when developing EV spreads - if you find a nice calculation like Blaziken4 Flame Charge on this Durant when theorymoning a spread, it can be a good attack to EV against using Survival Calculator.

Finally, a screenshot of what the minimum EVs calc done in this paragraph looks like for an example of usage, since the calculator is a bit unwieldy. Be sure to read the instructions linked at the bottom of its page as well.

(I had Substitute checked from doing the Dragonite calc earlier in this post - Find Minimum EVs ignores this, so it doesn't affect the result here and its impact is minimal as it only avoids having the HP number be divisible by 4 if checked.)
 
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The more I thought about this, the more I liked it. Full disclosure—the primary reason I am avoiding the use of Durant is because "I didn't come up with it". Not that anyone would be deeply offended if someone were to say there wasn't all that much to come up with as soon as Truant was revealed as its hidden ability, but there you go. The more I think about it as far as this logic problem is concerned, the more Durant made practical, efficient sense beyond any issues with originality and creativity I have. Your slight tweaks are great, with Sash primarily for Aero4 since CH SE can kill on the switch, and spikes being a nice catchall for foe Sash/Sturdy stuff that Salamence can truly 1HKO (basically only Cryo4 and Gliscor4 aren't addressed by Spikes vs SR, and Sala always beats Gliscor4 anyway and "Cryo is why I want Sub on Sala").

I didn't *really* want to forego LO on Greninja, though, and could/would easily sac Greninja to Aero4 to get Durant in, to turn Salamence into a win condition at~+4 and Subbed. And with keeping LO, the main issue I arrived at was Jolteon, which requires a Greninja sacrifice for the same reason Aero did, and then you come to the problem of "well, if I use Protect on Sala, I'm left with DD, Return and...Sub? Where's Roost sigh". Didn't want to do away with Roost because many lead fighters Greninja has to switch out of are "win condition" setup fodder for Megasala, but only with Roost.


So I shelved the idea and went back to my "pert or zone or lum scizor with 252+ atk to guarantee ohko on aero..." line of thinking. The goal is to use standard Greninja (give or take a move) and Megasala (so sorry turskain but you're disqualified lol). I liked insanemaniac's thought process for the options but was looking for one solid one. VaporeonIce went at this the way I would have...I have like a book's worth of stream-of-consciousness theorymon thoughts.

I finally finally finally arrived (again) at this:

(its really the blue one but w/e)
Gastrodon (F) @ Leftovers ** KY
Ability: Storm Drain
EVs: 252Def/4SpA/252SpD
Lv. 50 stats: 186/86/120/113/147/59
Nature: Calm
~ Scald
~ Toxic
~ Protect
~ Recover

Aero? Check. Electrics? Check. (Raichu can't even 2HKO with GK after Protect, fuck off you don't deserve to be 110 speed.) Gardevoir? Check! (Calm, Protect, and Recover allow it to stall out Moonblast after hitting with Toxic even with a CH, which is important since it doesn't discourage Moonblast which checks the rest of my team.) Haxorus/Garchomp? Check. (Excadrill failed here). Arti2? ...check please? (Protect on Sheer Cold, Toxic through Lum a couple times, pray lol.) Snorlax? Check. (I don't mind par that much against Lax, and if it's Immunity Scald will probably burn, have to be FP like a million times to not Recover.)

I had bred a Swampert but didn't like how it fared against Gardy. Recover absolutely sells Gastrodon in this instance, being able to be a poor man's Gliscor (which I'd use in a heartbeat if not for the hilariously glaring double 4x weak because it checks all the boxes, including Arti1 (fun fact: I have beaten Arti1 and its three ice moves with my Kanglicune Gliscor 1-on-1). Toxic is the best way to beat Lati@s (and Gardy), and I realized how much I wanted Scald to almost completely eradicate another kind of status in Freeze. I really wanted to fit Yawn somewhere but Protect is the best way for this set to deal with Arti1 (which beats Salamence unless I've done ~38% of prior damage to it so Aerilate Return can OHKO).

Feel free to tell me what Gastrodon misses, or don't and I can find out on my own and go back to the drawing board, or finally be motivated to actually use Kangliscune again soon. As for my streak progress:



(i wish there were an effortless way to make those pics smaller but I cannot be bothered to actually "host" these)

Would probably have been more, but this happened lol: 4GXG-WWWW-WWXF-AST9

If you're like me, you don't actually want to go through the effort to watch that, because maybe you're doing something else on your DS, and you may not even have Wi-Fi available atm, but it's a bit worth it, especially if you're paying attention to the nuances of how improbable everything was.

I'll be playing with Ninja/Sala/Gastro until I get bored or discover a glaring flaw (like Moonblast/Sub/CM/Rest Cresselia hating P24 and its thunderwave especially when it Traces Protean [Analytic wouldn't kick in on a Paralyzed opponent], that sure wasn't a "waste" of three days of SRing...).
That replay was painful. It's a friendly reminder that sometimes, the Maison just decides "you lose," and that's it. My moment of comeuppance will probably come when Taunt misses a lead Zapdos 2, then it uses Double Team and causes me to miss a few more times before KOing Whimsicott, then it KOs Durant with Heat Wave when Entrainment misses, then it burns Drapion with Heat Wave or I fail to stall it out. That, or I'll lose to a stupid misplay (which kind of almost happened last night).

I'm running a new, bad Singles team that I'm determined to get to 200. I've already lost six or seven times, but all of them were due to misplays (my best streak so far ended because of the most egregious misplay). It was several crippling flaws, but it uses one of my favorite Pokemon without relying entirely on established Maison powerhouses to carry it through (it uses one established Pokemon and two that haven't made the leaderboard yet). Hopefully I'll get the Starf Berry, then I'll post about it when I lose (which will probably be battle 202 or so).
 
After defeating Morgan, I decided to try to get a little further in super rotations with this team. I made it past the next ten battles, but two of them had Walrein4 and I was terrified if fissure or sheer cold was to hit. Luckily, it kept missing and I was able to take it out. I forgot to record one of those battles but FFPG-WWWW-WWXF-B3AT is the code for other one. To deal with Walrein4 and Donphan4, I've thought about keeping a Pokemon with sturdy in the bench so I can switch it out on those OHKO moves, but most of them are rock, steel, or ground types and didn't seem like a good idea. Maybe it'd be better to put Porygon2 in the back, while I have something with substitute in one of the leading spots. Thoughts?

On unrelated news, these videos are just for the lolz.
Y3KW-WWWW-WWXF-B3A6: I got cocky with using sacred sword with Aegislash which led to a really annoying mind game.
2MJG-WWWW-WWX9-7HEP: This was from my super triples 180 win streak. I should have made safer decisions instead of thinking that an enemy is going to faint.
 
After defeating Morgan, I decided to try to get a little further in super rotations with this team. I made it past the next ten battles, but two of them had Walrein4 and I was terrified if fissure or sheer cold was to hit. Luckily, it kept missing and I was able to take it out. I forgot to record one of those battles but FFPG-WWWW-WWXF-B3AT is the code for other one. To deal with Walrein4 and Donphan4, I've thought about keeping a Pokemon with sturdy in the bench so I can switch it out on those OHKO moves, but most of them are rock, steel, or ground types and didn't seem like a good idea. Maybe it'd be better to put Porygon2 in the back, while I have something with substitute in one of the leading spots. Thoughts?

On unrelated news, these videos are just for the lolz.
Y3KW-WWWW-WWXF-B3A6: I got cocky with using sacred sword with Aegislash which led to a really annoying mind game.
2MJG-WWWW-WWX9-7HEP: This was from my super triples 180 win streak. I should have made safer decisions instead of thinking that an enemy is going to faint.
You REALLY want something with Sub in one of the lead spots; if it has some respectable speed and bulk, that's even better. Getting up a free Substitute in Rotations is golden, and given the AI's unpredictable move selections, they'll often pick a move that will fail to break the Sub. Gliscor is the king of this, though striking the right balance between speed (to block potentially fatal hits) and bulk (to help its Subs survive) is tricky. I liked using fast Gliscor because it would consistently beat Veterans (most of their Pokemon are slower than max Speed Gliscor; the ones that aren't usually can't beat Gliscor, with the exception of Tornadus and Taunt Virizion). I used Gliscor in the back, but it was sometimes annoying to have to sacrifice something to bring it in, since you'll never want to switch into it if the opponent still has a Water- or Ice-type move on the board.

Stall Skarmory could do similar things to Gliscor, and is actually fairly good at it, while completely blocking stuff like Donphan and most Ground-types. Unfortunately, it's also complete set-up bait for those Curse+Rest users, and it has two of the most annoying weaknesses in the Maison (Fire and Electric, due to their secondary effects that can annoy any potential switch-in). It would also probably have a harder time in Rotations than in Singles, because it would have to use Toxic on the entire team before using Fly to dodge attacks would actually do anything.
 
You REALLY want something with Sub in one of the lead spots; if it has some respectable speed and bulk, that's even better. Getting up a free Substitute in Rotations is golden, and given the AI's unpredictable move selections, they'll often pick a move that will fail to break the Sub. Gliscor is the king of this, though striking the right balance between speed (to block potentially fatal hits) and bulk (to help its Subs survive) is tricky. I liked using fast Gliscor because it would consistently beat Veterans (most of their Pokemon are slower than max Speed Gliscor; the ones that aren't usually can't beat Gliscor, with the exception of Tornadus and Taunt Virizion). I used Gliscor in the back, but it was sometimes annoying to have to sacrifice something to bring it in, since you'll never want to switch into it if the opponent still has a Water- or Ice-type move on the board.

Stall Skarmory could do similar things to Gliscor, and is actually fairly good at it, while completely blocking stuff like Donphan and most Ground-types. Unfortunately, it's also complete set-up bait for those Curse+Rest users, and it has two of the most annoying weaknesses in the Maison (Fire and Electric, due to their secondary effects that can annoy any potential switch-in). It would also probably have a harder time in Rotations than in Singles, because it would have to use Toxic on the entire team before using Fly to dodge attacks would actually do anything.
I've thought about Gliscor, but wouldn't heal bell sort of interfere with poison heal? As for Skarmory, I really don't want to have another steel type, which adds another fire weak Pokemon.

I've been thinking of who I should use mostly to help deal with OHKO moves, and I thought of competitive Milotic. How's this set?

Milotic
Ability: Competitive
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
IVs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
- Scald
- Substitute
- Protect
- Light Screen / Haze / Safeguard (this would mean Audino can use protect to self heal) / Toxic?

In the lead, intimidate would just boost its power and max defense investment actually puts defense 1 point lower than its special defense for download. As for the hold item, I could use a light clay if I use light screen, but not sure if I try using a different move.
 
I've thought about Gliscor, but wouldn't heal bell sort of interfere with poison heal? As for Skarmory, I really don't want to have another steel type, which adds another fire weak Pokemon.

I've been thinking of who I should use mostly to help deal with OHKO moves, and I thought of competitive Milotic. How's this set?

Milotic
Ability: Competitive
Nature: Bold
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
IVs: 31/x/31/31/31/31
- Scald
- Substitute
- Protect
- Light Screen / Haze / Safeguard (this would mean Audino can use protect to self heal) / Toxic?

In the lead, intimidate would just boost its power and max defense investment actually puts defense 1 point lower than its special defense for download. As for the hold item, I could use a light clay if I use light screen, but not sure if I try using a different move.
Yeah, the Poison Heal + Heal Bell interaction is annoying; I was thinking about it more generally than on your specific team.

I like the Milotic set, and here's why: your team is crushingly weak to Pokemon with Curse+Rest+Earthquake. Even the ones with just Curse+Earthquake can cause problems by KO'ing Aegislash (your only real answer to them), but with Rest, you'll have an incredibly hard time stalling them out. While Aegislash can beat them, if your opponent has anything that beats Aegislash, you'll be at huge risk every time they come out.

...EXCEPT HAZE TOTALLY NEGATES THAT, which is glorious. Scald is a highly spammable move (unless crap like Storm Drain Cradily is on the board), because even if it does minimal damage (which it usually will), you can burn things with it. Haze does have the weakness of being dead weight against anything that doesn't set up, but fortunately, Milotic's bulk can mitigate that a little bit. Milotic also tanks Ground and Fire moves aimed at Aegislash nicely (Rhyperior EQ does under 50%, which is hilarious). Electric-types become your worst enemy, though, so sticking with Garchomp as your backup is probably a good idea. I'm iffy about Scarf, though, but try it out and see what works (maybe the classic Lum Berry+Sub+SD set, which also blocks OHKO moves). Having two Ice-resists and two Dragon-resists/immunities really helps Garchomp.

Milotic could run Sitrus Berry, or you could use one of these two baller items I totally forgot existed until recently:

Kee Berry: If held by a Pokémon, this Berry will increase the Pokémon's Defense stat when hit by a physical attack
Maranga Berry: If held by a Pokémon, this Berry will increase the Pokémon's Sp. Defense stat when hit by a special attack

These are awful in competitive play, and unfortunately, they don't protect your Pokemon from crits. But when you take an already hugely bulky Pokemon and slap on +1 Def or +1 SpDef, it becomes significantly harder to take down. I would probably choose the Kee Berry for Milotic, because most Life Orb attackers are physical anyway. Calcs:

252+ Atk Life Orb Sawk Close Combat vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 79-95 (39.1 - 47%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Armaldo Stone Edge vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Milotic: 76-91 (37.6 - 45%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

That is HILARIOUS bulk. Maranga seems less helpful because 1) You probably won't beat Electrics anyway, and 2) You resist most other relevant special attacks (Ice, Water, Fire). It may be useful against Grass, though, since it prevents Roserade 4's Giga Drain from having the chance to 2HKO.
 
That feeling when you realise too late that you misentered some info into your damage calc and actually got lucky as hell that it played out in your favor.

*ahem* turns out 50% HP M-Blastoise has a guaranteed OHKO on Landorus2 with Water Spout... ...in singles. 37.5% odds with the spread penalty. Whew. <_<

In other news, I witnessed one of few instances first-turn AI Explosion was its best possible option, though not to give the AI any credit, for it couldn't have known what would happen. Regirock2 with its irksome Custap Berry but Clear Body, thereby ensuring that the Water Spout the following turn would be fatal anyway (it's the move in question that left MB's HP halved.)

For such a solid team (two Fake Out leads plus Intimidate) this particular run has been giving me a lot of hell. The AI has run their own faster Fake Out leads and I've faced a couple dual Taunts; fortunately they used those moves stupidly.

Edit: laaaawwwwl I spoke too fucking soon. After spending a minute mulling over my options of a replacement for Scrafty, who killed itself while taking down Sibyl's Zapdos, I finally settle on Emboar instead of Reuniclus. Virizion appears right in front of it, and then her final poke, Heatran, between Claydol and 'Stoise. Not even going to bother reminding myself which one is sashed/Shuca. Bout time they threw me a little bone.
 
Kee Berry: If held by a Pokémon, this Berry will increase the Pokémon's Defense stat when hit by a physical attack
Maranga Berry: If held by a Pokémon, this Berry will increase the Pokémon's Sp. Defense stat when hit by a special attack
Where can I get these berries?
 

NoCheese

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Where can I get these berries?
If you have X or Y, Kee Berries grow as a mutation from Liechi and Ganlon berries being planted next to each other (use surprise mulch to boost your chances), while Maranga Berries require adjacent Salac and Petaya Berry plantings.

In ORAS you can get both from secret pals with the Gather Berries skill.
 
If I have 150 wins in XY super doubles, would I have a record? I can't tell if it's still being updated; 116 as the lowest record seems low to me.
 

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