Are you smoking crack? Nobody uses either of these Pokemon, why would they be OU? At the very MOST they could be BL. Learn your tiers.
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32 turns of stall in the Hail: Walrein
- Thread starter Dragontamer
- Start date
Are you smoking crack? Nobody uses either of these Pokemon, why would they be OU? At the very MOST they could be BL. Learn your tiers.
Yes I'm on crack but it seems like everyone and their mom/brother/cousins are using this right now on shoddy..
I know the tiers very well and the stuff that can break this for the most part is not UU.
Actually it seems like every other team is a hail team on Shoddy :[
The thing is, it's really the strategy that's good, not just Walrien/Abamosnow or whatever. Besides, if it isn't executed perfectly it's quite vulnerable. Without toxic spikes, or if Walrien loses his Lefties to Knock Off, or if the hail is removed after your Snow Warning poke is killed... it's quite beatable.
Actually, yes, and he para'd my Vaporeon at one point so I never managed to BP that Aqua Ring to Aerodactyl. Dusknoir did have it though, and trust my when I say this: Dusknoir recovering during a Sandstorm is an incredibly large nuisance. I particularly like my set because the most common counters to Dusknoir (STAB Pusuiters) get owned by Focus Punch and are usually facing a Sub when they come in.
Using them both together is great because Dusknoir can usally stop the spinner and they won't do enough damage to it to break through Subs. Later, Aero abuses the hell out of Sandstorm and in general takes out any kind of disabling or recovery move.
It also doesn't hurt that the rest of my team is fairly sturdy and covers itself fairly well.
The fact that this and a few other factors started a hailstorm fad in Shoddy makes me very sad.
On the plus side, when I was running BL/UU, I managed to KO an Abomasnow starter with my Torkoal/Forretress-wannabe starter. That was fun.
But yes, this only makes games boring. Someone just start using Feint as a gimmick against these teams, please.
On the plus side, when I was running BL/UU, I managed to KO an Abomasnow starter with my Torkoal/Forretress-wannabe starter. That was fun.
But yes, this only makes games boring. Someone just start using Feint as a gimmick against these teams, please.
Why are people thinking so hard about this?
The counters are very well known and have been mentioned in this thread already. The counters are just not that common.
1. Weather Changers -- Sunny Day ain't looking so nice as grass are weak to blizzard, and fire is weak to surf... but good prediction switches that around as grass is strong to surf and fire is strong to blizzard. Then my ice team is weak to fire entirely, and my Abomasnow will never be able to switch into a fire pokemon to start the hail again.
Solarbeam however, gives me a free switch to Abomasnow. It resists, weakens solarbeam due to hail, and then turns it into 2 turns again.
Rain Dance is perhaps a bit more conservative but will still work as Kabutops gains Swift Swim and STAB on stone edge on top of 115 base attack. Rain Dance essentially gives +2 speed on swift swim water pokemon in a single turn, so it should be good to a whole team anyway.
2. Preventing the sub/protect combo. Roar Suicune has been mentioned already. Also, the toxic spikes is easily prevented by a toxic spikes absorber.
3. Hard counters. Stone Edge DD Taunt Gyarados with leftovers is already mentioned as a counter to non-Blizzard Walreins. T-tar has the benefit of changing the weather AND nearly countering this walrein.
Granted, you have to think about this during your team building, but I can see any of these guys working out very well against the Walrein. If its a big enough threat, I can see any of these guys fitting in like a lego block into a team.
The counters are very well known and have been mentioned in this thread already. The counters are just not that common.
1. Weather Changers -- Sunny Day ain't looking so nice as grass are weak to blizzard, and fire is weak to surf... but good prediction switches that around as grass is strong to surf and fire is strong to blizzard. Then my ice team is weak to fire entirely, and my Abomasnow will never be able to switch into a fire pokemon to start the hail again.
Solarbeam however, gives me a free switch to Abomasnow. It resists, weakens solarbeam due to hail, and then turns it into 2 turns again.
Rain Dance is perhaps a bit more conservative but will still work as Kabutops gains Swift Swim and STAB on stone edge on top of 115 base attack. Rain Dance essentially gives +2 speed on swift swim water pokemon in a single turn, so it should be good to a whole team anyway.
2. Preventing the sub/protect combo. Roar Suicune has been mentioned already. Also, the toxic spikes is easily prevented by a toxic spikes absorber.
3. Hard counters. Stone Edge DD Taunt Gyarados with leftovers is already mentioned as a counter to non-Blizzard Walreins. T-tar has the benefit of changing the weather AND nearly countering this walrein.
Granted, you have to think about this during your team building, but I can see any of these guys working out very well against the Walrein. If its a big enough threat, I can see any of these guys fitting in like a lego block into a team.
ONe thing, in the sun, surf is neatral.
These teams are common enough on shoddy now that anyone leading with abomasnow is pretty much predictable. Once you know what to expect, it's not difficult to prevent the setup, and ice is such a lousy typing that they're at a big disadvantage in an even battle. Walrein is worthy of BL because of this, but definitely not OU.
I played against one of these today, but it didn't work out too well, since I had a Hariyama with Cross Chop and Bullet Punch. The ability to go last behind the sub, and hit again before the next one eventually won the game, along with my Leftovers Scizor, but it was still pretty annoying to fight
This is a pretty decent set. If you don't know what's going on, or your team is just particularly weak to this kind of thing then you could be in for some trouble, but most of the time you can just use some smart playing to get past it.
This is a pretty decent set. If you don't know what's going on, or your team is just particularly weak to this kind of thing then you could be in for some trouble, but most of the time you can just use some smart playing to get past it.
STALLrein is more like it.
I was testing this WALLrein on Shoddy and it worked wonders!! Really, poison the foe and stall 32 turns. Wow!!
*runs off to breed Spheals*
*runs off to breed Spheals*
I call mine Stalin *shot*
And yeah, this Walrein works wonders. I was so rushy to test it I forgot to add Leftovers to half my team, including it, lol. By the way, I need to fix some things... Defensive Drapion without Earthquake is a sad accordian :[
Hmm another good counter is anything that uses knock off, although the main knock off users are weak to ice and special moves, not to mention knock off will never work on a sub.
Glalie, the pseudo-Phione (or is Phione the pseudo glalie??) can also stall and wall with ice body, though not quite as effectively as Walrein. Still, two stallers as these could hurt a team very badly. And instead of roaring, he can taunt. I think it'd work well on a hail team with walrein.
Glalie, the pseudo-Phione (or is Phione the pseudo glalie??) can also stall and wall with ice body, though not quite as effectively as Walrein. Still, two stallers as these could hurt a team very badly. And instead of roaring, he can taunt. I think it'd work well on a hail team with walrein.
I will put in my two cents
I don't understand why people so amazed by this, it is nice fit on hail team but since hail teams normally like 95% of the time have a huge weakness to fire\rock\ or fighting.It normally takes superhuman prediction or flawed opposing teams for hail teams to work.
Also I don't see huge difficultly in countering either are several methods in countering other than what dragontamer mention, like switching back forth between a sleep talking Cresselia and Blissey,sacrifice and kill,psudeo haze it out deal with later.
I like the effort and thought put in threads like this,I like creative use of uu pokemon to have over used applications.Well thought out idea like this thread ,Chainchomp,growthran makes coming to smogon fun but let not go over board the idea is good but not earth shattering.
Also this not shot(maybe a little shot) at dragontamer but i love the way he plugs his idea in other threads it is thing of sheer beauty.
I also have to give credit dragontamer again,at begin of the D/P metagame people where laughing at the use of toxic spikes like if you were using dig or blast burn.I could not understand at time why people didn't like a move that poisoned almost every poke entered in a battle.People use guts/heracross excuse but that never made that much sense to me,three main pokes with guts are afraid of gliscor but anyways I couldn't at the time make people see toxic spikes was good move but people are certain seeing it now.
I don't understand why people so amazed by this, it is nice fit on hail team but since hail teams normally like 95% of the time have a huge weakness to fire\rock\ or fighting.It normally takes superhuman prediction or flawed opposing teams for hail teams to work.
Also I don't see huge difficultly in countering either are several methods in countering other than what dragontamer mention, like switching back forth between a sleep talking Cresselia and Blissey,sacrifice and kill,psudeo haze it out deal with later.
I like the effort and thought put in threads like this,I like creative use of uu pokemon to have over used applications.Well thought out idea like this thread ,Chainchomp,growthran makes coming to smogon fun but let not go over board the idea is good but not earth shattering.
Also this not shot(maybe a little shot) at dragontamer but i love the way he plugs his idea in other threads it is thing of sheer beauty.
I also have to give credit dragontamer again,at begin of the D/P metagame people where laughing at the use of toxic spikes like if you were using dig or blast burn.I could not understand at time why people didn't like a move that poisoned almost every poke entered in a battle.People use guts/heracross excuse but that never made that much sense to me,three main pokes with guts are afraid of gliscor but anyways I couldn't at the time make people see toxic spikes was good move but people are certain seeing it now.
I don't expect you to be amazed. But I do see some flaws in your argument.
1. GUTS Stone edge from HERACROSS allows Walrein to put up a sub and then out-stall Heracross to the hail.
2. Similarly, Cross Chop from Electivire allows Walrein to use Subsitute. It is a very bulky pokemon and the hail just makes it more so. Similarly, CB Brick Break from Weavile doesn't even do 50% damage all the time, and it will die to Toxic Spikes anyway.
3. Walrein is water/ice, so it isn't weak to fire. An important asset to an hail team regardless.
As stated before, unless you're packing huge attack and stab bonuses (like Close Combat Heracross, which Walrein won't be able to get a sub up but it will survive non-boosted ones (like Scarf non-guts close combat)), Walrein will get the sub up and then out-stall your pokemon. Hell, no form of Garchomp can break the combo of Walrein. Chainchomp Draco meteor is too weak, and CB Outrage is also too weak.
Switching back and forth gives _me_ an advantage. What? You think that I'm ONLY going to leave Walrein in there? A free switch is a free switch and I can switch to any of my pokemon who can get a good advantage on your team. (Subseeding Abomasnow for instance takes care of the Cresselia / Blissey problem... and then most phazers (except Roar Suicune who doesn't like Leech Seed so much) can't take a NeverMeltIce Blizzard from this guy, and Blissey can't take a focus punch)
Think, it takes 2 pokemon for you to counter a single one... and it isn't even a real counter. I can just use roar and toxic spikes your sweeper. The "switching back and forth" strategy only works when you assume I'm using only Walrein. Remember, it is a team game.
Walrein is strong enough to take a pursuit from anyone (even T-Tar) and come back later, while at the same time CB Adamant Dugtrio doesn't even guarantee a 2-hit KO with Stone Edge when you factor in hail, leftovers, and a turn of protect. 53.61% - 62.98% damage according to Metalkid.
Then of course, I use either blizzard OR Surf for the guarenteed OHKO on Dugtrio.
Its more like sacrifice, revenge-counter while I switch out to my next counter to your revenge killer. You can't force a kill with pursuit or Dugtrio, and Trapinch is too slow and Walrein will out-stall. And of course, Wobuffet is banned.
The only standard psudeo hazer who will roar it out first is Suicune + roar (brought up so far... please tell me if I've missed any). Walrein is faster than Donphan, Swampert, and even Skarmory. So most standard phazers simply do not work against a smart opponent.
Don't get my above criticism too far :-p I do agree that this isn't an "earth shattering" idea, but it is an interesting team member and it seems to deal with a huge number of problems pretty well (particularly, the ones you brought up). And it does use a very UU pokemon for the job, which is always a crowd pleaser.
I find that the main problem with this set is the huge amount of set-up. Granted, I've gone entire battles without getting a chance to use Walrein and that is okay. Its a strategy that is there when you need it.
Sigh. If you don't like a defense tier analysis, don't read it. >_<. However, there is no other way for me to estimate the defensive strength of this guy. If you got a better way of coming up with the information I came up with (that is, this guy is about as strong as Weezing in Physical Def, and about as strong as Dusknoir in special defense), please tell me. Till then, I'll be using Defense tiers in my analysis.
I don't force anyone to use Defense Tiers. And I don't expect you to belittle me because I'm using what I feel is the most effective means of communication. Its barely 2 paragraphs and makes up a very small portion of my post.
That is actually a key point. Toxic Spikes is half of what makes this set good. When those rogue Drapions, Roserades and so forth come in and ruin the setup you know you're screwed, or at least put in a very big disadvantage.
Fire,Fighting,rock .Hail teams have a general large exploitable weakness,which your team manages to cover it,but when covering poke aka froslass or walrein gets damage enuff your team gets cut up like butter a fire poke or fighting poke .
I could do poke beat poke counter reply game ,it would be of waste time. I have already state that i think the walrein set work,now that actually put a little more thought it should be very effective situationally with teams now not carrying rapid spin or psudeo hazer move in teams like they did in R/S.
I could do poke beat poke counter reply game ,it would be of waste time. I have already state that i think the walrein set work,now that actually put a little more thought it should be very effective situationally with teams now not carrying rapid spin or psudeo hazer move in teams like they did in R/S.
There is a difference between mono-ice teams and Hail teams.
Mono-ice teams that have decent defense against fighting/rock/fire typed attacks are quite rare (Froslass for Fighting, Thick Fat Walrein for Fire, Mamoswine for Rock lol). On the other hand, a team abusing just Abomasnow/Walrein can use much better options like Donphan, Cresselia and Milotic to handle the weakness' of the ice type.
That being said, I don't really love the idea of all-out stall, but I guess with such few people using Heal Bell/Aromatherapy/Rapid Spin these days, it could work.
Holy christ, this has gone on long enough.
I'm not going to get into the counter game, because that's been argued to death and back. My qualm is with everyone saying "hay Dragonguy, good job creating this set!" Fact is, he probably ripped it off some Japanese guys on PBR. Literally the second fight I had on Wifi the day that game was released (months ago now, mind you) was against a Japanese battler using this very strategy. He led with Scarf Abomasnow (which is better than Sub/Seed in 3v3), followed it up with Toxic Spikes Tentacruel, and rounded it out with the set you're all calling Stallrein now. I had battled the same strategy multiple times by different Japanese players before this thread was even conceived.
So unless Dragontamer has a Japanese pack and had been using this strategy on PBR for months before he decided to make a post about, he ripped it off. Sure, he could have came up with it on his own without seeing it there, but given how precisely emulated it is, I find that hard to believe. Now if he wants to be credited as the emissary who brought it to our community's attention, then find, he did do that. But he certainly didn't create it.
Also, I'm going to lock this topic if it continues to be a stupidity fest where Dragontamer responds individually to every. single. post. about stuff that has been discussed five times over.
I'm not going to get into the counter game, because that's been argued to death and back. My qualm is with everyone saying "hay Dragonguy, good job creating this set!" Fact is, he probably ripped it off some Japanese guys on PBR. Literally the second fight I had on Wifi the day that game was released (months ago now, mind you) was against a Japanese battler using this very strategy. He led with Scarf Abomasnow (which is better than Sub/Seed in 3v3), followed it up with Toxic Spikes Tentacruel, and rounded it out with the set you're all calling Stallrein now. I had battled the same strategy multiple times by different Japanese players before this thread was even conceived.
So unless Dragontamer has a Japanese pack and had been using this strategy on PBR for months before he decided to make a post about, he ripped it off. Sure, he could have came up with it on his own without seeing it there, but given how precisely emulated it is, I find that hard to believe. Now if he wants to be credited as the emissary who brought it to our community's attention, then find, he did do that. But he certainly didn't create it.
Also, I'm going to lock this topic if it continues to be a stupidity fest where Dragontamer responds individually to every. single. post. about stuff that has been discussed five times over.
I gotta try this, thanks
You're qualm is unfounded then, as only one person in this thread claims that Dragonguy created this set, and that person isn't Dragonguy. I'll tell you what the fact is: Dragonguy never claimed (as far as this thread shows) that he was the original creator of this set. I personally don't know if he came up with it on his own or saw it somewhere else first, but the point is moot, because he made this thread to share a set which he personally found effective. Who the hell cares who originally created it!? This type of thread, where a person makes a very good and well thought out argument for a set which hasn't been previously discussed on the forums, with empirical evidence that shows the set to be effective, should always be encouraged on these forums because it is, after all, and exemplary sample of strategic set discussion, regardless of who the original set's creator is.
Further, the notion of closing this thread because because the OP is is engaging in debate with other posters in the thread and sometimes repeating a point which arguably needed repeating (seeing as the same nay-saying points are brought up over and over), is nothing short of sheer ridiculousness. Whether you agree with the points the OP is making is, again, neither here nor there -- he is engaging is debate in a civilized and thought-out manner (without making flames), and should be allowed to speak his part and continue to defend the points made in his opening post of this thread as long as the counter-points, both old and new, are made.
You can't just "wait for Gyarados to die", as you said early on, considering that except for the one time I fought a CB Gyarados, they all have had Leftovers, meaning no Hail damage, and it is immune to Toxic Spikes.
Destiny Bond + Evasion = bad. You don't want to spoil the surprise by having them miss.
I really think you need to account for Leftovers in general. Also, Skarmory would run Speed EVs "just" to beat Walrein. I put Speed on my Skarmory mostly to beat other Skarmory.
Destiny Bond + Evasion = bad. You don't want to spoil the surprise by having them miss.
I really think you need to account for Leftovers in general. Also, Skarmory would run Speed EVs "just" to beat Walrein. I put Speed on my Skarmory mostly to beat other Skarmory.