Honestly, with all the priority like Talonflame flying around I wouldn't say it's entirely free. Plus, the opponent can always set up at the same time.
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- Thread starter Hack_Guy
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Speaking of Talonflame, it can do the same... Protect + Swords dance, now you have +2 180 BP Brave bird Sharp Beak boosted to handle...
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 160-189 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 34% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tyranitar: 258-305 (75.6 - 89.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 378-445 (107.3 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It still outpriorities almost anything and kills it.
+2 252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 375-442 (125.4 - 147.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
It's almost as if it would have Contrary, every second turn you get a free +2 Boost so it breaks anything... Use sub instead actually...
Final edit; run it with Acrobatics without an item instead:
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 174-205 (52 - 61.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Mega Aggron: 132-156 (38.3 - 45.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Regirock: 165-195 (45.3 - 53.5%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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After playing a couple of battles, I'm actually of the opinion that Talonflame deserves a ban. I mean sure, you could run stuff like Mega Aggron or Skarmory or Regirock. But Talonflame kinda forces you to run something like that. Outside of Rock/Steel Pokemon very few Pokemon can take a hit from a Banded Aerial Ace+ Brave Bird combo. Set-Up doesn't matter if your opponent has Talonflame. He's just going to outspeed and KO. Outside of defensive Pokemon, very, very few things can survive. That completely limits your choices in terms of usable Pokemon. There are tons of very viable Pokemon which simply cannot even try to set up as long as Talonflame exists. Basically apart from repeating the same thing thrice, what I'm saying is Talonflame is overcentralizing.
I don't agree with Talonflame ban. Well, it is overcentralizing, but its the only thing beside Unaware pokes that keeps things like Scarf Dragon Dance/Swords Dance/Quiver Dance/Tail Glow + attacking move from being too overpowered and making instant wins. Considering all Unaware pokes only have average bulk, Talonflame is needed to revenge kill.
Besides its high powered STAB moves, its kinda prone to Rocky Helmet (probably one of the best item in this meta) and Stealth Rock. Its also frail. Because of that, it can be killed easily. I'm sure if you killed opponent's Talonflame or Unaware pokes. you can use your Scarf set up sweeper and sweep opponent's team. Because of the frailness and Stealth Rock weak, I don't think its broken.
On the other hand, Talonflame is also the reason we need Aegislash in this meta. It may not counter it, but King's Shield for stopping it is enough. It also keeps things like Jirachi flinchspam or Mienshao Fake Out + U-turn being too spammy.
Tbh I think Fake Out + U-turn should be banned or limited to 1 per team. Two Faketurn cores can make the opponent doesn't move at all, which is very unfair.
Besides its high powered STAB moves, its kinda prone to Rocky Helmet (probably one of the best item in this meta) and Stealth Rock. Its also frail. Because of that, it can be killed easily. I'm sure if you killed opponent's Talonflame or Unaware pokes. you can use your Scarf set up sweeper and sweep opponent's team. Because of the frailness and Stealth Rock weak, I don't think its broken.
On the other hand, Talonflame is also the reason we need Aegislash in this meta. It may not counter it, but King's Shield for stopping it is enough. It also keeps things like Jirachi flinchspam or Mienshao Fake Out + U-turn being too spammy.
Tbh I think Fake Out + U-turn should be banned or limited to 1 per team. Two Faketurn cores can make the opponent doesn't move at all, which is very unfair.
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Just one thing (I'm not great at this meta but this seems peculiar to me): Why are people running Brave Bird before Aerial Ace on Talonflame? If your attack kills, Aerial Ace->Brave Bird will ALWAYS give less recoil damage than Brave Bird->Aerial Ace. If it doesn't kill, the order is irrelevant. Is there something I'm missing or is this just an oversight?
The reason is this.
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gliscor: 73-87 (20.6 - 24.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Poison Heal
Aerial Ace doesn't break Substitute by Gliscor, making you getting Toxic stalled to death. Other than that, not really relevant.
But Talonflame does that... It can gain +2 every second turn, essentially Contrary and since its so fast anything that doesn't live +2 Sharp beak boosted 180 BP Hitting two times flying move is going to die, regardless if they set up or not. They can't really set up, as Talonflame will just out priorities you. Not everything can run Rocky helmet, and it will still take out three Pokemon by that logic.
Aegislash isn't a reliable stop to Talonflame, as it can also run Flare blitz. But still...
+2 252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 216-254 (66.6 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And not every team can run Aegislash!
And you also run Acrobatics instead of Aerial ace, it's better.
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 307-363 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 282-333 (82.6 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 307-363 (90 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 282-333 (82.6 - 97.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Banded Aerial Ace + Brave Bird totals 240 Base Power. No item Acrobatics + Brave Bird totals 230 Base Power. With Acrobatics there's a little less recoil, but honestly banded is probably better.
Why run banded when you can link Sub + Swords dance and you get a free sub & +2 every time your opponent messes up. I can't do that if it's banded. If you want to run band, just run Brave bird + Swords dance, and you become a moxie abuser on steroids.
Because Substitute and Swords Dance aren't Flying type moves and thus aren't priority, which is the whole point of using Talonflame
Do remember that Talonflame is still one of the fastest Pokemon in the game. So it's still going to outspeed a huge number of things.
The thing is, most attackers in Linked are scarfed, and tflame cannot afford to be locked into substitute + SD to outspeed. thus allowing it to be outsped by things like Tail Glow + Scald manaphy or FakeTurn cores, which completly obliterate it. a Sub + SD set can only come in on things like SubToxic gliscor or unaware clefable (which still doesn't care about sd tflame), therefore rendering it incredibly ineffective. It's only real viable link is Brave Bird + Other Flying move
Talonflame outspeeds all of these fake out + u-turn users, I think. Manaphy isn't living a 235 BP +2 Brave bird. If they both lead talonflame will just go for Sub and swords dance, Manaphy breaks the sub and gets to +3. Talonflame then kills it with priority 235 BP +2 Priority brave bird. How do you expect Gliscor to break Talonflame's sub? It can't break it and then toxic as Talonflame probably OHKOs it at +2! It's extremely broken imo
I hope you know what set i'm thinking off,
Talonflame @ blank
252/252 Jolly
Brave bird 1
Acrobatics 1
Substitute 2
Swords dance 2
How much does Clefable take from 235 BP brave bird? 70%-89%...
Quagsire probably also dies
Why would talonflame give a fuck about scarfers, it has priority
3rd and 4th move in the moveslot are not linked. Only the first two moves are linked.
Tail Glow + Scald manaphy is generally scarfed, thus enabling it to outspeed Talonflame and KO with a +3 Scald. It also survives a single brave bird
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 235-277 (68.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
and that's only if banded, which SubSD tflame will not be running for obvious reasons
faketurn also uses scarf, and things like Raichu (Fake out + Volt switch) defeat tflame as it's only form of priority in this case does not kill
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raichu: 189-223 (72.4 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It even fails to KO ambipom, which in general goes down to just about anything
252+ Atk Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ambipom: 220-259 (75.6 - 89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Talon lacks the raw power to OHKO much with a standalone Brave Bird, and SubSD auto-fails against scarfed mons
So run Swords dance linked with Brave bird, clefablde might stop ir but it's essentially contrary. Not hard to revenge kill something with Talonflame. Now your opponent has a 252 Adamant + 3 Talonflame to handle, gl
SD + Brave Bird looses priority due to the fact that gale wings does not boost SD. It can still be destroyed by scarfed pokemon unless you're running scarf tflame (not really the best idea, especially since aegis is currently being suspected), even then, it's taken down by other talonflame which have an Brave Bird + Aerial ace link
So as of late, there has been a lot of debate as to whether Aegislash could help balance out Linked via King's Shield. So as of now, there I will suspect Aegislash for an Unban
You can use the Linked Ubers option on pandora to test out how aegis works in the current metagame.
Umm, so how long will this suspect last?
The suspect will last around a week or so (probably until the OU one ends unless we can come to a decision as to whether or not to unban it). So it would be great if we could see some debate around it
For you PMD fans
Made by me, M'joe'ra, Hack Guy, InfernapeTropius11, TheBlueFireTruck
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the Linked metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These pokemon define the metagame.
S Rank
Talonflame
Clefable
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Linked metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
A+
Jirachi
Dragonite
Gyarados-Mega
Charizard-Mega X
Altaria-Mega
Aegislash
A
Thundurus
Gliscor
Keldeo
Azumarill
Manaphy
Mienshao
Infernape
Landorus T
Victini
Magnezone
Charizard-Mega Y
Metagross-Mega
Amoonguss
A-
Pinsir-Mega
Weavile
Gallade-Mega
Tyranitar-Mega
Zapdos
Lopunny-Mega
Feraligatr
Ambipom
Cloyster
Politoed
Manectric-Mega
Excadrill
Tyranitar
Ferrothorn
Quagsire
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Linked metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+
Serperior
Gengar
Cinccino
Lucario
Venusaur-Mega
Gardevoir-Mega
Latios
Kingdra
Kyurem-Black
Bisharp
Swampert-Mega
Ninetales
Rotom W
Slowbro-Mega
Heatran
Mew
Kabutops
Tornadus T
B
Garchomp
Skarmory
Aggron-Mega
Scizor-Mega
Volcarona
Omastar
Rhyperior
Raikou
Terrakion
Whimsicott
Diggersby
B-
Scolipede
Medicham-Mega
Porygon-Z
Scizor
Togekiss
Reuniclus
Sableye-Mega
Tyrantrum
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have a niche in the Linked metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame
C+
Raichu
Wobbuffet
Ditto
Venomoth
Breloom
Salamence
Haxorus
Aerodactyl-Mega
Hippodown
Hitmonlee
C
Accelgor
Froslass
Hydreigon
Regirock
Smeargle
Latias-Mega
Gothitelle
C-
Chansey
Gorebyss
Dusclops
Espeon
Cresselia
Forretress
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the Linked metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a
majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.
Regigigas
Lickilicky
Exploud
Chatot
Ludicolo
Glalie-Mega
Tropius
Exeggutor
Victreebel
Linked Viability Rankings
Made by me, M'joe'ra, Hack Guy, InfernapeTropius11, TheBlueFireTruck
S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the Linked metagame. These Pokemon are usually able to perform a variety of roles effectively, or can just do one extremely well. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are patched up by numerous positive traits. These pokemon define the metagame.
S Rank
A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the Linked metagame, and can sweep, support, or wall significant portions of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be compensated for when compared to their positive traits.
A+
A
A-
B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the Linked metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+
B
B-
C Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that have a niche in the Linked metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon. These Pokemon exert a below average presence in the metagame
C+
C
C-
D Rank: Reserved for Pokemon that are highly mediocre in the Linked metagame, but are viable enough to justify their use on select teams. These Pokemon are only capable of doing their specific task and fail at doing anything more than that. Pokemon from this rank have multiple crippling flaws that prevent them from being successful a
majority of the time, and are often severely outclassed because of it. These Pokemon exert a poor presence in the metagame.
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