Linked

Does anyone think sand is viable? Since speed is pretty important in this meta, I tried to think of days not boost speed, and that includes weather-boosted-speed-doubling abilities. Sand actually has the benefit of types that resist flying (talon), and has pokemon that use them such as excadrill and tyranitar.

Also: how does pursuit work? If it is in a link, will both moves hit the target?
 
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I have been using sand a lot in this meta, since before it was implemented on the main server. Sand based volt-turn is pretty good, and Tyranitar itself is very fearsome if it gets a free turn and will often sweep if the opponent lacks a scarfer that can hit it for SE damage. I've experimented with possible links for Excadrill, and I've found that a dual STAB link is usually the best. Sand also has a lot of different pivots that are already immune to sandstorm (Quaketurn lando-t comes to mind), so it's very flexible.

Linked pursuit will still hit for 80 BP if the target switches, but neither move will hit a switching target.
 
I have been using sand a lot in this meta, since before it was implemented on the main server. Sand based volt-turn is pretty good, and Tyranitar itself is very fearsome if it gets a free turn and will often sweep if the opponent lacks a scarfer that can hit it for SE damage. I've experimented with possible links for Excadrill, and I've found that a dual STAB link is usually the best. Sand also has a lot of different pivots that are already immune to sandstorm (Quaketurn lando-t comes to mind), so it's very flexible.

Linked pursuit will still hit for 80 BP if the target switches, but neither move will hit a switching target.
So basically pursuit and its linked move will hit the incoming Pokemon? Interesting, I guess you can't really abuse it on switches.
 
Alright, so the council has voted, and we've seen your opinions. Aegislash is going to be Re-banned
also, The Immortal , the ban on 2 turn moves was only supposed to include those in a link, not in general, because otherwise things like sun lose solarbeam and the such

now for the next potential decision, we're looking at nerfing linked moves. In the PMD games, using linked moves had it's drawbacks, namely reducing your belly faster. Since the main series has no such system, there has to be some drawback to using a link, something along the lines of linked moves doing 75% damage, as has been suggested earlier in the thread. How would this affect the metagame?
 
Just a nitpick, if your stall team has a fast cleaner, then it's not a stall team.
Now, if the 75% damage to linked moves is implemented, stall will actually become a viable playstyle with proper stall teams being used. I'm not a big fan of stall, but it feels unfair to me to have a meta where an entire playstyle is forcibly left out :(

You are only strengthening the 75% arguement, if it is implemented then talonflame wont hit as hard and thus won't be so overcentralizing anymore, and furthermore won't be in range of the banhammer.
I don't think that not being able to use stall will is a problem. Every meta has its own playstyle, where stal may or may not be viable. It's not really "unfair" that stall does not work, it just is how this meta is designed. If stall players are deterred from playing because it's not their style, so be it. Different tiers are for different players. If you don't like a tier, play a different one.
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Regarding the ban of two turn moves:
I think that only two turn moves with semi-vulnerability should be banned from being in a link.
Those moves are: Bounce, Dig, Dive, Fly, Phantom Force, Shadow Force, Sky Drop.
Unbanned moves would be: Freeze Shock, Geomancy, Ice Burn, Razor Wind, Skull Bash, Sky Attack, Solar Beam
There is no reason to ban moves that don't give you a free extra attack, and it also allows for the future development of sets, such as sunnyday+solarbeam, a charging move+recycle power herb, or maybe a charging move+recharging move.
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Also, good thing that aegi was banned, its bst was essentially 720, but i liked using it.
 
Been liking this set:

lopunny-mega.gif


Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Power-Up Punch
- Last Resort

Nice Fake Out+ PUP for boost, then destroy things with Last Resort
 
Been liking this set:

lopunny-mega.gif


Lopunny @ Lopunnite
Ability: Limber
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Fake Out
- Power-Up Punch
- Last Resort

Nice Fake Out+ PUP for boost, then destroy things with Last Resort
In my opinion, Fake Out outside of the link would be better to get the flinch, then link PuP and Last Resort so that each time you use Last Resort it gets more powerful. Also, Fake Out inside the link has no priority, so it won't often get the flinch in such a fast paced metagame with a variety of Scarfers, boosters, and priority users
 
I don't think that not being able to use stall will is a problem. Every meta has its own playstyle, where stal may or may not be viable. It's not really "unfair" that stall does not work, it just is how this meta is designed. If stall players are deterred from playing because it's not their style, so be it. Different tiers are for different players. If you don't like a tier, play a different one.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Regarding the ban of two turn moves:
I think that only two turn moves with semi-vulnerability should be banned from being in a link.
Those moves are: Bounce, Dig, Dive, Fly, Phantom Force, Shadow Force, Sky Drop.
Unbanned moves would be: Freeze Shock, Geomancy, Ice Burn, Razor Wind, Skull Bash, Sky Attack, Solar Beam
There is no reason to ban moves that don't give you a free extra attack, and it also allows for the future development of sets, such as sunnyday+solarbeam, a charging move+recycle power herb, or maybe a charging move+recharging move.
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Also, good thing that aegi was banned, its bst was essentially 720, but i liked using it.

The point of nerfing move isn't to boost stall, even though it'll get boosted. The point is to make switching in possible, making it a more competitive meta. Switching is nigh impossible in this meta because everything 1-2HKOs with linked moves, making it into a "sacking game." It's also why Choice Scarf and Talonflame defines this meta. I and other people don't want that.

Another point of nerfing linked move is PMD mechanics. Linked moves has drawbacks, which is draining your belly. Because of this, there should be a drawback of using linked moves.

If we want to make stall more viable easily, we'd just ban boosting + attack move, but we didn't do that because it takes away some of the "essence" in Linked. And it'll still have the switching problem because two attacking move is what makes it impossible to switch.
 
To xJownage and Jernmax

I just want to make it very clear that the reason I was posting things that checked certain Aegislash sets it because Jernmax used the idea the nothing can switch into Aegislash for his case. Which I've proved is false. Every single one of Aegislash's sets has its checks. And the random sets can run to break past the checks to its standard sets, like the Head Smash set, are even easier to check with different pokemon. This is more of a lure anyway.
Aegislash is uncounterable but so are a lot of things, Chopin stated that Mega Lopunny only has checks and cannot be countered. A lot of versatile pokemon have no guaranteed to counters to the every single one of the multitude of sets they run, but every pokemon still has checks to their most common sets. Aegislash is no different from any of these pokemon, it can't run 4 different sets at once. Hence the argument that it has 0 switch ins is incorrect, as every set has them. It could take as little as one Protect to get an idea of what you're up against.

What Aegislash provides to the meta is a fantastic check to many play styles, but it doesn't make these play styles unviable. Without Aegislash, Stall and balanced Archetypes would have an extreme tough time against; Jirachi, Fake-Turn, DD + Attack, Power Physical attack + Powerful Physical attack, etc, etc. But these are still all plenty viable with Aegi around, and you know why? Because if the opponent doesn't have an Aegi, or you kill their Aegi, these things are all broken as fuck. Bulky Garchomp is great at checking a lot of these things, but not all of them, and not as well as Aegislash a lot of the time. If we ban Aegislash, everyone would have to resort to using Garchomp and Ferrothorn, as a result, people start running multiple team mates and coverage option to kill Chomp and Ferro. Balance and Stall become unviable again. Then we have to start banning more drastic things like common play styles and mechanics.

As of now, stall is viable. I've experimented on ladder with multiple Stall teams and have been hovering around the top 10ish, meaning it can't be that bad, given my poor battle abilities -_-. My common builds consist of 5 blanket checks and a fast cleaner. But there are very limited options for blanket checks and Aegi is one of the best, without Aegi stall will be a lot less viable. Stall can also handle Aegi because a few great blanket checks like Quagsire and Amoonguss can check a few of its strongest sets. Even Aegi itself checks a few other Aegi sets.

What a lovely way to debate, you completely ignored the fact that all of your "counters" get ruined by Head smash, a more and more common move. You don't know what kind of set it runs, that's why it has no counters. Between subtoxic, head smash, flash cannon + shadow ball, shadow ball + sacred sword, swords dance + iron head/sacred sword there are no switch ins or counters. If you believe countering a certain sets and losing to another means that you've found a switch in makes me question your experience as a whole. But since the Aegislash is banned, I don't have to debunk your arguments anymore, yay.

Alright, so the council has voted, and we've seen your opinions. Aegislash is going to be Re-banned
also, The Immortal , the ban on 2 turn moves was only supposed to include those in a link, not in general, because otherwise things like sun lose solarbeam and the such

now for the next potential decision, we're looking at nerfing linked moves. In the PMD games, using linked moves had it's drawbacks, namely reducing your belly faster. Since the main series has no such system, there has to be some drawback to using a link, something along the lines of linked moves doing 75% damage, as has been suggested earlier in the thread. How would this affect the metagame?

I wouldn't be opposed to nerfing moves, Chopin's been debating on something wasn't the main focus, imo. But with Aegislash being banned and Talonflame hopefully following right after it I wonder if Linked truly should be nerfed.
 
if moves do get nerfed, talon wouldn't really require a ban, since a lot of it's OHKOs now become 2HKOs, and 2HKOs turn to 3HKOs and the such, as chopin said, it also helps to get things to switch in, which is very hard in the current metagame
 
I think that nerfing moves would make Clefable and Quagsire a bit OP. I'm not saying we should definately ban them, but we should definately look into it. I'm more worried about Clefable than Quagsire. Quagsire isn't as bulky, has worse typing, and doesn't get Stored Power.
 
Ban Stall

Nerfing linked moves would be good. But that kinda makes setup even more powerful. DoubleDance Lando-T for example could simply run EQ and a rock move for flying types and destroy everything. That aside, it would make more defensive 'mons viable. However I too fear that Clefable would be very difficult to beat. As it is if your opponent has Clefable you kinda have to kill it before it boosts to +2 otherwise your only option is to phaze it or taunt it and attack as much as possible before its taunt gets over.
 
If you believe countering a certain sets and losing to another means that you've found a switch in makes me question your experience as a whole.

Given that Aegi got banned there isn't much point in me explaining in depth again why you are incorrect and that repeating the same argument which I have already disproven doesn't "debunk my arguments". But I will respond to this because it tickles me and I feel that maybe if you can understand this next statement you will finally understand why you're wrong without me haven't to go in depth anyway, so read carefully.

If you have counters to a given Aegi set, and you are able to scout the set through Protect or Sacking (and don't start with you having to sack a pokemon makes it broken crap, cause this meta is currently all about sacking to scout pokemon which is the main reason Balance and Stall are unviable [I talk more about this in the rest of the post]), once you know the set, you can find a switch in. For example, if I switch into a useless pokemon vs your Aegi to scout it, and you use SD, I can be pretty safe to assume it is physically orientated and countered by my Quagsire, which will be able to switch into your Aegi again and again all day.

Which brings me to the point about switch ins. As Chopin said, the problem with this meta at the moment, which makes Offense the only viable strat, is that almost nothing is a guaranteed switch in too anything, until you know what its link / set it. You pretty much have to sack things in order to scout and then either revenge, or send in a reliable switch in once you know the set. Which is pretty much what HO already does in standards anyway. If it gets a poor 1v1 it often would just sack its least valued member based on match up, then revenge the threat. HO relies on Non Switch In checks, where as Balance and Stall as far better off holding their cores together and maintaining all their pokemon, because they don't have enough win cons to just attack with everything till they die, and then send in the next win con. Stall of cause is hurt by this the most as their win cons are generally too slow for this meta and can be flinched to death unless you remove flinch users, but in order to get to a point where your win cons can set up and sweep, you have to sack things, and stall is the kinda play style where you are either sacking your win cons, or you are sacking the cores that clear the path for your win cons, making it extremely hard to set up a victory.

But there was however a time when stall didn't have to sack anything (or balance), because it had the tools to scout the opponent without having to switch in its least valued member and hope it doesn't die. I time of Aegislash, where King's Shield was the most reliable way to scout the opposition's sets without giving them free set up had they turned out to be a Scarfed SD + STAB Garchomp. Stall had a scout, that could give you a great enough indication of the opposing set that you could work out your most reliable switch in.
But before that there was another time. A time where stall wasn't reliant on Aegislash to Scout, because Protect could be linked with other moves. Defensive Prankster mons such as Klefki, Sableye, and Murkrow could reliably scout without conceding free turns. Feather Dance + Protect Murkrow, Taunt/Will-O-Wisp + Protect Sableye, Thunder Wave + Protect Klefki. These were all viable stall mons that fulfilled their role of scouting and blanket checking things such as Physical attackers, Set Up attackers, and Flinch abusers (the 3 links given each check at least 1 of these categories). As a result, Stall (and balanced) could have multiple viable scouts to work out what they could and couldn't switch in against, as well as blanket check certain common links and strategies.

But now Stall and Balance are forced to sack things. R.I.P

Now don't get me wrong, I don't dislike an offensive meta. In fact I don't really like using stall, I just do it because I could ('could' as in I used to be able to before linked Protect and Aegi were banned), and people said I couldn't. I don't mind that linked is an offensive meta, I just hate that it used to be a balanced meta in which all play styles were viable, if people were willing to adapt.

Every time we ban something it seems to sway the meta so drastically, and I agree that if we reduce the power of linked moves, Quag and Clef would become over centralising. And then they will get banned. And then balance and stall will be nothing but a distance memory. Then Choiced Boost + Attack will become broken, and we'll have to ban that. And then what are we left with?

Obviously what I want is for the council to reconsider what has been banned, but I am willing to concede if we stop here. Don't continue banning things, or make changes to the mechanics, this is the kind of meta where that track never ends, something will always stand about as OP or centralising and I feel we are taking the meta backwards every time we attempt to go forwards.

We are all merely passengers on The Rape Train. There are no brakes on The Rape Train. And Rape is bad.
 
I don't think Clefable will be banworthy even with linked moves nerf. First, Moonlight has 8 pp, so you won't stall forever. Second, Clefable have some limiters, namely Flinchrachi, Taunt, Haze, Toxic, Gothitelle. I know it can carry Heal Bell, but I'm listing Toxic as the limiter because carrying Heal Bell would limit heavily in what you do to your opponent. Two of its moves are Cosmic Power/Calm Mind + Moonlight. The last two would be either Stored Power, Moonblast or Heal Bell. Carrying Heal Bell would mean it has to give up on either Moonblast or Stored Power.

Also no one uses Gothitelle right now because the meta is very offensive. If the meta becomes more stally because of this nerf, there will always be Gothitelle for you to use.

Right now, as the council member of Linked, we need to seriously consider the opinion of you guys as the players, because this affects the ENTIRE metagame. It's very different from just banning a poke, move, item or something. Do you want to make switching and stall possible or not? That's up to you to decide.
 
I'm kinda curious about your stall team. Do you have any replays or anything?

I don't think Clefable will be banworthy even with linked moves nerf. First, Moonlight has 8 pp, so you won't stall forever. Second, Clefable have some limiters, namely Flinchrachi, Taunt, Haze, Toxic, Gothitelle. I know it can carry Heal Bell, but I'm listing Toxic as the limiter because carrying Heal Bell would limit heavily in what you do to your opponent. Two of its moves are Cosmic Power/Calm Mind + Moonlight. The last two would be either Stored Power, Moonblast or Heal Bell. Carrying Heal Bell would mean it has to give up on either Moonblast or Stored Power.

Also no one uses Gothitelle right now because the meta is very offensive. If the meta becomes more stally because of this nerf, there will always be Gothitelle for you to use.

Right now, as the council member of Linked, we need to seriously consider the opinion of you guys as the players, because this affects the ENTIRE metagame. It's very different from just banning a poke, move, item or something. Do you want to make switching and stall possible or not? That's up to you to decide.
Clefable doesn't really need to link Moonlight though. It can run Calm Mind/Cosmic Power + Moon Blast. Also, since everyone's talking about playstyles, HO teams don't carry Haze, Taunt(Except Thundurus I guess) or Toxic and Gothitelle is just plain bad. Flinchrachi might work but that's based on chance(Albeit a good chance).
 
I'm kinda curious about your stall team. Do you have any replays or anything?
Nah. My Stall team is quite bad. I used my Trick Room team more than my Stall team now.

Edit: I think Clefable is more like "anti meta" than being broken. Its the best thing to stop the most common playstyle, which is HO, but it definitely can be stopped.
 
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Jirachi is not the best against Clefable once it gets to +2:

252+ Atk Jirachi Iron Head vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 104-126 (26.3 - 31.9%) -- 30.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Jirachi Zen Headbutt vs. +2 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 52-63 (13.1 - 15.9%) -- possibly the worst move ever

Rocky Helmet would destroy it. Plus, if flinchax fail, you lose all of your progress.
 
I'm kinda curious about your stall team. Do you have any replays or anything?

If you were talking to me I usually don't save my replays. Most the ones I kept were either for testing Sucker Punch + Spiky Shield Cacturne, or Sunny Terrain.

I do have a few with my Stall + Swoobat team though. Which I made because Swoobat.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237396803
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237419258
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/linked-237425026

If you want I could make another stall team and save some replays, but it will be a lot harder to get results.

EDIT: before this was OMotM I remember Chopin posting a solid amount of replays using stall, you can try find them but the meta has changed A LOT since then.
 
Also there is one thing that I am surprised no one used to break Clefable. Its defense lowering moves.

Hi Clefable 1(Sylveon) @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe (can be changed if it has better spread)
Modest Nature
- Fake Tears
- Hyper Voice
- Wish
- Protect or something

Hi Clefable 2(Magnezone) @ Choice Scarf/Choice Specs
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest/Timid Nature
- Metal Sound
- Flash Cannon
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Fire

Edit: Landorus I got banned in OU. I'll remove it from viability ranking.

Edit 2: more sets to break Clefable

Hi Clefable 3(Escavalier) @ Life Orb/Choice Band
Ability: Overcoat
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def
Brave Nature
IV: 0 Speed
- Screech
- Iron Head
- Megahorn
- Knock Off/Drill Run

Good for Trick Rooms.


Hi Clefable 4(Heatran) @ Leftovers
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
- Metal Sound
- Flash Cannon
- Lava Plume
- Stealth Rock/Ancientpower
 
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now for the next potential decision, we're looking at nerfing linked moves. In the PMD games, using linked moves had it's drawbacks, namely reducing your belly faster. Since the main series has no such system, there has to be some drawback to using a link, something along the lines of linked moves doing 75% damage, as has been suggested earlier in the thread. How would this affect the metagame?

How about losing 10% HP like Life Orb? Linked moves aren't always damaging moves.
 
How about losing 10% HP like Life Orb? Linked moves aren't always damaging moves.
If beating a dead horse was adding Aegislash to the tier, I think adding LO damage to status moves would be like taking the dead horse that is Stall and dropping it into a meatgrinder

I'm in favour of the 75% boost because I do not believe Clefable is broken. Moonlight has so little PP and its forced to run unaware to be effective. Other than that, it's handled by Heatran, toxic, taunt, haze, whirlwind and more. Hyper offense can sort of overpower it, but it's an amazing pokemon. If you lack a counter/switchin/check you're going to have a really bad time.
 
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If beating a dead horse was adding Aegislash to the tier, I think adding LO damage to status moves would be like taking the dead horse that is Stall and dropping it into a meatgrinder

I'm in favour of the 75% boost because I do not believe Clefable is broken. Moonlight has so little PP and its forced to run unaware to be effective. Other than that, it's handled by Heatran, toxic, taunt, haze, whirlwind and more. Hyper offense can sort of overpower it, but it's an amazing pokemon. If you lack a counter/switchin/check you're going to have a really bad time.

I think you mean damage nerf to 75%, not boost.

My idea of nerfing damage to 75% is because of Doubles. All targeting moves in Doubles only does 75% damage. Then I thought, "why not apply the same to Linked moves?" It's basically "two of my same poke uses different all targeting moves to two of the opponent's same poke, but 1v1 instead of 2v2." Silly idea I know, but I can't think of a better nerf.

Also Landorus I got banned in OU. I'll miss it for sure :(
But Landorus I ban means Stall also got boosted.
 
Hack_Guy does this mean Landorus-I is getting banned here also? Just asking because while it's strong here it isn't overpowered. I don't understand the situation in OU so maybe it was banned for a different reason.

Yes, since linked follows OU clauses, lando-I will be banned until it is either re-introduced into OU or there is a large enough support for an unban
 
Adding a damage modifier complicates the metagame too much. Simpler set of rules = better.

Flavor-wise, it would make sense to apply the 10% HP penalization. Alternatively, I'd propose modifying the priority rule so that linked moves always go last in the priority bracket of the least-priority move. In the fashion of Stall, Full Incense or Lagging Tail.
 
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