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Unpopular opinions
- Thread starter antemortem
- Start date
I wish whoever was in charge of Game Balance or mechanics demonstrated a greater understanding/interest in formats besides Doubles, or even just extremely basic common sense when adjusting things.
For example, looking at some of the XY Megas, some additions were made that add nothing to the Pokemon: Gardevoir and Ampharos gaining 20 Physical Attack, Medicham and Scizor getting Special Attack. It's not even a case like Alakazam of trying to fix a problem not worth fixing with the SpD gain, these mons flat out would never use these stats, especially in a case like Ampharos where another stat seems to have been decreased to allow it (Speed -10), when that stat probably would have been of much more use (Agility being able to outspeed Mega Zam, for example). They at least got it a bit better in ORAS with things like Gallade, or even the Min-Maxing Beedrill got, so why did they make those kinds of mistakes with the old mons. The Nidos at least didn't become primarily dependent on the unbuffed stat until they got Sheer Force, but the Megas were clearly designed to buff the Pokemon in a certain respect with the ridiculous emphasis on a specific stat, so the first try excuse doesn't mean anything because there were wasted stats in the first outing, unlike Banette (normal) who had an idea (Physical Ghost in Gen 3) that got messed up in hindsight.
While there were traces of it in Gen 6, I think Gamefreak needs to at somepoint be willing to change a Pokemon stats in some fashion between generations, or at least pay attention to what things hold back a mon in an iteration, such as Hawlucha needing a more general use Flying move than Acrobatics, Diancie lacking Power Gem for some reason, and god knows how many mons that were designed as bulky with horrid typings and/or no good recovery (Mega Aggron, Bastiodon, Bronzong).
And for the love of all that exists, STOP trying to make bulky Ice types!
For example, looking at some of the XY Megas, some additions were made that add nothing to the Pokemon: Gardevoir and Ampharos gaining 20 Physical Attack, Medicham and Scizor getting Special Attack. It's not even a case like Alakazam of trying to fix a problem not worth fixing with the SpD gain, these mons flat out would never use these stats, especially in a case like Ampharos where another stat seems to have been decreased to allow it (Speed -10), when that stat probably would have been of much more use (Agility being able to outspeed Mega Zam, for example). They at least got it a bit better in ORAS with things like Gallade, or even the Min-Maxing Beedrill got, so why did they make those kinds of mistakes with the old mons. The Nidos at least didn't become primarily dependent on the unbuffed stat until they got Sheer Force, but the Megas were clearly designed to buff the Pokemon in a certain respect with the ridiculous emphasis on a specific stat, so the first try excuse doesn't mean anything because there were wasted stats in the first outing, unlike Banette (normal) who had an idea (Physical Ghost in Gen 3) that got messed up in hindsight.
While there were traces of it in Gen 6, I think Gamefreak needs to at somepoint be willing to change a Pokemon stats in some fashion between generations, or at least pay attention to what things hold back a mon in an iteration, such as Hawlucha needing a more general use Flying move than Acrobatics, Diancie lacking Power Gem for some reason, and god knows how many mons that were designed as bulky with horrid typings and/or no good recovery (Mega Aggron, Bastiodon, Bronzong).
And for the love of all that exists, STOP trying to make bulky Ice types!
I know I'm probably going to get flak for this outside of this thread because Smogon is a competitive series of forums, but from a flavor perspective, I've been starting to like the idea of "physically-attacking tank" Ice-types recently. But it's getting to be too much on Game Freak's part, and needs to stop because it seems like they despise the Ice type from a gameplay standpoint. At least Weavile exists.
I think Codraroll mentioned this on one Orange thread about trends in stats and types a while back, but Ice-types tend to be physically offensive or generally defensive because they're trying to endure cold environments, and they don't really need to be as fast as most Electric-types, for example. I hope that quick explanation helps.
I think Codraroll mentioned this on one Orange thread about trends in stats and types a while back, but Ice-types tend to be physically offensive or generally defensive because they're trying to endure cold environments, and they don't really need to be as fast as most Electric-types, for example. I hope that quick explanation helps.
The flavor makes sense. The problem is that SO many things are strong against ice. Ice isn't a good defensive fight, but I think we all wish that ice resisted more. How about making it resist water? Or something else. Even getting rid of some of its weaknesses it might be good.
Dark Manaphy
Integer Mova
I completely agree with both of you.
Also Codraroll in every pokedex entry (especially the one in platinum) it always makes the reference that Arceus created the universe, now why would game freak keep doing that if they didn't want everyone to view Arceus as the God of the pokemon world? Arceus can be an omnipotent deity and watched the universe grow. If game freak didn't want people to think Arceus is a god why would they keep shoving the references in? It is their game and if they want to make a pokemon god then they can do that.
Integer Mova
I completely agree with both of you.
Also Codraroll in every pokedex entry (especially the one in platinum) it always makes the reference that Arceus created the universe, now why would game freak keep doing that if they didn't want everyone to view Arceus as the God of the pokemon world? Arceus can be an omnipotent deity and watched the universe grow. If game freak didn't want people to think Arceus is a god why would they keep shoving the references in? It is their game and if they want to make a pokemon god then they can do that.
The problem is that even from a flavour standpoint, giving Ice-Types large defences in order to represent the endurance of glaciers means jack shit when everything's destroying it with type advantages anyway.
If one particular thing in fiction is stated by a relatively ambiguous source yet nothing else in fiction is willing to really back it up, you may want to start questioning exactly where this particular thing came to it's conclusion.
Well, maybe it's to make you think. The wonderful thing about fiction is that you don't have to take everything at face value and it's completely open to your own interpretation. Yeah, sure, Arceus' dex entries basically say it's God... but does that really mean it's true? Is there anything else backing up the idea that it's actually a God? Who writes these dex entries? Where is the information in it derived from? Lores, myths? Hell, if Arceus truly is a God, then why is it here in the realm of the physical and not the realm of the metaphysical? For that matter, why is it worshipped in Sinnoh and Ransei and... pretty much non-existent as far as the rest of the world is concerned?
If one particular thing in fiction is stated by a relatively ambiguous source yet nothing else in fiction is willing to really back it up, you may want to start questioning exactly where this particular thing came to it's conclusion.
So regarding this Arceus and "god of Pokemon" talk...
My personal perspective on the Pokemon universe in regards to deities is that it is a universe of many deities. Arceus is just one of many deities in the Pokemon universe. All of the mascot legendaries are, in essence, deities. As far as we know about the Pokemon Arceus in question, it "created" the universe, but it only did this by creating Dialga and Palkia. The creation of the whole Pokemon universe and matter was really done by Dialga and Palkia, as from the minute of their beginnings, they made time flow and space expand. Dialga and Palkia are essentially gods as well, as put. Dialga and Palkia are the ones that have the power to destroy the universe, not Arceus. Dialga and Palkia can easily warp the very aspects they control, time and space, which in this way could easily destroy the universe (their sig moves, Roar of Time and Spacial Rend, are moves that warp time and space, respectively). Yes, Arceus may have also "created" spirit, but again, it only did this by making the lake guardians. Oh and yeah this thing also made Giratina, who I really don't understand why it gets so many ridiculous superstitions as an evil Pokemon. As far as I'm concerned, this Pokemon is a "deity" that plays a vital role in maintaining balance between time and space, hence why it rules an alternate world of antimatter that is the exact opposite of the real world. These Pokemon are all revered in the Sinnoh region, as this is the place these mons have the closest connection to. They're also really only revered in Sinnoh, whereas other regions have other deities that are said to control other aspects of creation. Here, I'm looking namely at Hoenn and Kalos. Hoenn reveres a threesome of powerful "deities" called Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza, and Kalos has a threesome of deities called Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde. The respective threesomes are known in their respective regions namely as the former two are said to have expanded the land and the seas. The latter are said to have formed mortality, namely life and destruction and have the power to give/take life. Rayquaza and Zygarde on the other hand are a more Giratina-esque presence according to the myths and serve as a balancing factor to ensure two forces never lose balance. Heck, Rayquaza is revered by some in ORAS Hoenn as a "lord and savior"...does that ring a bell?
And then we look at Unova and Johto, which have deities but really don't involve the creation of the world in any way. Of course Reshiram and Zekrom have a strong legend tied to them seen only in Unova, which involves them and humans, and the ties between people and Pokemon, as well as which is right: the truth...or ideals? And Johto of course reveres Lugia and Ho-Oh as well as the beasts, but their myths aren't really connected in any way, and each has their own myth in Johto and only in Johto. Kanto on the other hand does not seem to have any particular deities.
I could go on rambling forever about this, but the basic idea I'm trying to get at is that Pokemon in a world that has many deities, and the different regions each revere a different set of deities and each have their own myth, and some places like Kanto have practically no deities at all. There is no one omnipotent deity in Pokemon canon: in fact, there are many. Now as for my take on the myths and legends that the Pokemon games have thrown at me? To me, it's certainly possible that the deities and mythologies of Kalos, Sinnoh, and Hoenn could possibly be connected, and all of their own deities may have all played a role in shaping up the Pokemon world, meaning that the weather, creation, and mortality trios could certainly have formed their many aspects, and of course maybe Regigigas and the lake guardians may have played a role as well. But this is all my interpretation on it, and you don't have to take fiction at face value. Looking at what Kurona said, perhaps the reason for all this ambiguity is in fact to make you think, and of course that's what it made me do at the end...
My personal perspective on the Pokemon universe in regards to deities is that it is a universe of many deities. Arceus is just one of many deities in the Pokemon universe. All of the mascot legendaries are, in essence, deities. As far as we know about the Pokemon Arceus in question, it "created" the universe, but it only did this by creating Dialga and Palkia. The creation of the whole Pokemon universe and matter was really done by Dialga and Palkia, as from the minute of their beginnings, they made time flow and space expand. Dialga and Palkia are essentially gods as well, as put. Dialga and Palkia are the ones that have the power to destroy the universe, not Arceus. Dialga and Palkia can easily warp the very aspects they control, time and space, which in this way could easily destroy the universe (their sig moves, Roar of Time and Spacial Rend, are moves that warp time and space, respectively). Yes, Arceus may have also "created" spirit, but again, it only did this by making the lake guardians. Oh and yeah this thing also made Giratina, who I really don't understand why it gets so many ridiculous superstitions as an evil Pokemon. As far as I'm concerned, this Pokemon is a "deity" that plays a vital role in maintaining balance between time and space, hence why it rules an alternate world of antimatter that is the exact opposite of the real world. These Pokemon are all revered in the Sinnoh region, as this is the place these mons have the closest connection to. They're also really only revered in Sinnoh, whereas other regions have other deities that are said to control other aspects of creation. Here, I'm looking namely at Hoenn and Kalos. Hoenn reveres a threesome of powerful "deities" called Kyogre, Groudon, and Rayquaza, and Kalos has a threesome of deities called Xerneas, Yveltal, and Zygarde. The respective threesomes are known in their respective regions namely as the former two are said to have expanded the land and the seas. The latter are said to have formed mortality, namely life and destruction and have the power to give/take life. Rayquaza and Zygarde on the other hand are a more Giratina-esque presence according to the myths and serve as a balancing factor to ensure two forces never lose balance. Heck, Rayquaza is revered by some in ORAS Hoenn as a "lord and savior"...does that ring a bell?
And then we look at Unova and Johto, which have deities but really don't involve the creation of the world in any way. Of course Reshiram and Zekrom have a strong legend tied to them seen only in Unova, which involves them and humans, and the ties between people and Pokemon, as well as which is right: the truth...or ideals? And Johto of course reveres Lugia and Ho-Oh as well as the beasts, but their myths aren't really connected in any way, and each has their own myth in Johto and only in Johto. Kanto on the other hand does not seem to have any particular deities.
I could go on rambling forever about this, but the basic idea I'm trying to get at is that Pokemon in a world that has many deities, and the different regions each revere a different set of deities and each have their own myth, and some places like Kanto have practically no deities at all. There is no one omnipotent deity in Pokemon canon: in fact, there are many. Now as for my take on the myths and legends that the Pokemon games have thrown at me? To me, it's certainly possible that the deities and mythologies of Kalos, Sinnoh, and Hoenn could possibly be connected, and all of their own deities may have all played a role in shaping up the Pokemon world, meaning that the weather, creation, and mortality trios could certainly have formed their many aspects, and of course maybe Regigigas and the lake guardians may have played a role as well. But this is all my interpretation on it, and you don't have to take fiction at face value. Looking at what Kurona said, perhaps the reason for all this ambiguity is in fact to make you think, and of course that's what it made me do at the end...
It's flavor text, magneton is supposed to raise the temperature yet doesn't learn heatwave, skarmory is supposed to be fast as he'll yet base 70 speed. It's just flavor text.
Plebs of the sinnoh past watch a rainbow Llama, they called it God, nothing new nor interesting bar role playing outside of the games or fanfictions.
I agree with that. I am not saying Arceus is the most important deity I am saying like what you are saying that he is just one of many deities.
What pokedex ever said magnetron could raise the temperature? I also said Arceus was God, but I meant it as more of the one who set things into motion then the most important. It created two other deities that control time and space so in essence it has to be a deity itself to have that kind of power to do such a thing. Can we just stop talking about this and go back to unpopular opinions? Here I'll start:
1.) Mega gallade was a great idea but the design seem too lazy and bland. I always think that his arm blades became those dual things from Yu-gi Oh.
2.) Diancie should note be a legendary. It should be an evolution of carbine as stated in the pokedex.
Diancie should be an evolution of Carbink, it even says it's a mutated one. Actually... how did it mutate? New topic for the mysteries thread!
To put it bluntly, Pokedex entries should be taken with a grain of salt, seeing as how there are many entries that make absolutely no sense in the context of the game. You have a handful of entries that reference the real world; Raichu can apparently electrocute Indian elephants into submission, and Arcanine's a legendary Pokemon in China. Yet the Pokemon universe is supposedly it's own little world, with no traces of "animals" in it.
Also, Larvitar apparently consumes an entire mountain as food so it can grow, yet there's a whole colony of Larvitar living on Mt. Silver, and other mountains in the world. Go figure.
tl;dr, the scientist who wrote the entries for the Pokedex was high when he was working. So the legality of Arceus's title as "the" omnipotent God is questionable.
Also, Larvitar apparently consumes an entire mountain as food so it can grow, yet there's a whole colony of Larvitar living on Mt. Silver, and other mountains in the world. Go figure.
tl;dr, the scientist who wrote the entries for the Pokedex was high when he was working. So the legality of Arceus's title as "the" omnipotent God is questionable.
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The Pokédex also says that volcanoes are born when Entei howl, and that whenever a volcano erupts, an Entei is born. Clearly, Larvitar are keeping the Entei in check, which explains both. :P
Opinion: Phione should not have been made a weak Manaphy clone and should have gotten a unique role. Unpopular mostly because people don't give a fuck about it.
Opinion: Phione should not have been made a weak Manaphy clone and should have gotten a unique role. Unpopular mostly because people don't give a fuck about it.
I explained my opinion about Arceus a while ago. I personally think what we're seeing isn't the "real" Arceus but just an avatar it uses to interact with us in the material world. Considering what we saw Arceus do in HGSS where it uses the power of the Sinjoh Ruins and Unown to create a Dialga/Palkia/Giratina Egg, Pokemon with power over time, space, and anti-matter, I think its safe to say it does have god-like power or at least the closest to it we've seen in the Pokemon world. However I think that's just the very tip of the iceberg, I think the real Arceus is a metaphysical Lovecraftian creature who keeps the universe and its laws working. It has no form, I'd be hesitant to say its purely energy, its a creature who's existence goes beyond our understanding of what it is and how does it do the thing it does.
Remember the Pokedex entries, at least for the Regional Dexes, are written by kids who just started their journey and recently caught the creature. It's not the scientists who wrote the entries being high but more like the kid who wrote the entry making assumptions off what they've briefly seen and/or possibly heard from locals.
Phione probably should be made catchable somewhere in the wild or at least you can get its Egg from somewhere/someone. But I don't know what they could do with Phione, like it was made to be a weaker Manaphy. It's not even like Carbink who's only difference between it and Diancie is Diancie has 50 more BST in its offense stats. I guess first thing they can do is give it a different Ability, like if it had Storm Drain it could be useful in Doubles to draw in opponent's Water-type attacks. Give it Heal Pulse and Heal Bell and maybe it could carve a niche out of being a healer while also taking opponent's Water-type moves and healing itself with Aqua Ring (and you still have one last move and an item to give it). *shrugs*
Remember the Pokedex entries, at least for the Regional Dexes, are written by kids who just started their journey and recently caught the creature. It's not the scientists who wrote the entries being high but more like the kid who wrote the entry making assumptions off what they've briefly seen and/or possibly heard from locals.
Phione probably should be made catchable somewhere in the wild or at least you can get its Egg from somewhere/someone. But I don't know what they could do with Phione, like it was made to be a weaker Manaphy. It's not even like Carbink who's only difference between it and Diancie is Diancie has 50 more BST in its offense stats. I guess first thing they can do is give it a different Ability, like if it had Storm Drain it could be useful in Doubles to draw in opponent's Water-type attacks. Give it Heal Pulse and Heal Bell and maybe it could carve a niche out of being a healer while also taking opponent's Water-type moves and healing itself with Aqua Ring (and you still have one last move and an item to give it). *shrugs*
You're stuck a little too much in a monotheistic mindset. Arceus is the creator, but that's also all it ever did. Made the universe (at least according to myths), but it did not interfere with it. According to the rest of Sinnoh lore, the universe didn't even have space or time by the time Arceus was finished with it, so it didn't even do that job completely. It was up to Dialga, Palkia and to some extent Giratina to do anything with the newly-created universe, Arceus just paved the ground for them and then went to sleep in the Hall of Origin.
Several mythological pantheons have similar deities. In Norse mythology, for instance, the world was made from the body of a giant, which appeared pretty much out of nowhere along with a cow that somehow created the gods. Neither the giant nor the cow were worshipped, they were just hanging about in the background of the pantheon.
Whether or not Arceus is in fact THE god of Pokemon, I find the very concept of such a Pokemon just... incredibly lazy and stupid.
Every legendary prior was certainly a powerful entity, but by no means some all powerful omnipotent being. Groudon and Kyogre had powers that could cause catastrophic effects on the environment, but Kyogre wasn't outright responsible for the existence of Water or anything like that. Even Palkia and Dialga, the two with diety-type abilities, had a means by which humans could come to control them, if not outright defeat them in battle. Pokemon like those were worshiped as deities for their power by some, but never outright confirmed omnipotent.
And then suddenly here comes this magic Llama, rocking Base stats that both individually and in total dwarf virtually every legendary to date and without even much explanation besides "he's the creator, fear him!". From what I noticed, Arceus's concept and visual design don't have any particular origin as some of the other Olympus mons did, such as Ho-oh to a Phoenix or Kyogre to Leviathan. And let's just throw tools for every possible OP combo it could need: access to every type, ridiculous stats to complement, high speed, boosts from the changing item (compared to later cases like Genesect who simply get the change from their item and nothing else), a signature move that is already powerful AND gets STAB, recovery and status healing moves, Boosting moves on either Spectrum, the strongest natural Priority in the game, EVERYTHING.
My point being, Arceus feels like a case of trying WAY too hard to make something powerful (successfully), to the point that they didn't realize how lazy it would look, in a series with all these creative behemoths and creatures, to just have this one be "oh, I created everything, outclass all these other legends." It also introduces a bit of a paradox in power creep, with mons having to be introduced with loopholes to be relevant despite Arceus, yet not woefully outclass him at what he tries to do, usually in the form of unique abilities or signature moves. Know what that got us? Primal Groudon and Kyogre, Geomancy Xerneas, and Mega Rayquaza, things I'm sure most Ubers players are less than enthusiastic about for one reason or another.
Gen 5 got Arceus's concept a little better with the original Dragon. For one thing, even with all the evidence, the Dragon itself is only alluded to, so it doesn't set some kind of power ceiling the way Arceus did. For another, it's not alluded to as so far above that it could create other Legendaries at will, since Reshiram and Zekrom, despite being in-game about as powerful as the Creation Trio, outright split from it and left it as Kyurem, significantly weaker. And last, the Dragon is praised as a God, but nothing in universe outright alludes to the theory it created the entire universe, rather just helped shape Unova, where it is worshiped. If Arceus was responsible for forming the entire universe, whether or not other regions worship it, I figure other regions would at least know it existed.
And this is less the games, but I also just hate Arceus because it's a literal God-Mode Sue in every other form of media, despite entailing some inconsistency.
In the HG/SS manga, despite the crap the Creation Dragons pull, the characters are still able to fight quite well against them, even conceivably beat them. Arceus, on the other hand, basically withstands all out attacks from the entire casts full teams, and only leaves because of seeing a bond between human and Pokemon or some shit, and the twist that "they thought that controlled him, but Arceus let them bring him here to test humanity" or crap like that.
Meanwhile, Arceus shows up in his movie somehow able to fight the 3 titan Dragons without much problem in an off screen battle, in a weakened state from lacking 5 plates (yet fucking Pikachu can stun it). What makes this feel like more of an ass pull is that Arceus somehow nearly died ramming a meteor and could also be killed by molten silver, the latter in spite of having plates that would make it resistant to whatever you'd class that as considering Heatran's presence. Also, giving Arceus one plate back after the meteor strike somehow lets it pull all 15 others back, yet it can't retrieve the 5 it used for the Jewel of Life on its own. The entire movie makes Arceus as OP as the plot demands it, because he has to be strong enough to threaten conflict, yet has to be weak enough that the actual villain can threaten him and we don't have to make God evil.
tl;dr Arceus is a lazy concept gameplay wise and lore wise, and I personally think he creates more problems than he should at his introduction and in hindsight.
Every legendary prior was certainly a powerful entity, but by no means some all powerful omnipotent being. Groudon and Kyogre had powers that could cause catastrophic effects on the environment, but Kyogre wasn't outright responsible for the existence of Water or anything like that. Even Palkia and Dialga, the two with diety-type abilities, had a means by which humans could come to control them, if not outright defeat them in battle. Pokemon like those were worshiped as deities for their power by some, but never outright confirmed omnipotent.
And then suddenly here comes this magic Llama, rocking Base stats that both individually and in total dwarf virtually every legendary to date and without even much explanation besides "he's the creator, fear him!". From what I noticed, Arceus's concept and visual design don't have any particular origin as some of the other Olympus mons did, such as Ho-oh to a Phoenix or Kyogre to Leviathan. And let's just throw tools for every possible OP combo it could need: access to every type, ridiculous stats to complement, high speed, boosts from the changing item (compared to later cases like Genesect who simply get the change from their item and nothing else), a signature move that is already powerful AND gets STAB, recovery and status healing moves, Boosting moves on either Spectrum, the strongest natural Priority in the game, EVERYTHING.
My point being, Arceus feels like a case of trying WAY too hard to make something powerful (successfully), to the point that they didn't realize how lazy it would look, in a series with all these creative behemoths and creatures, to just have this one be "oh, I created everything, outclass all these other legends." It also introduces a bit of a paradox in power creep, with mons having to be introduced with loopholes to be relevant despite Arceus, yet not woefully outclass him at what he tries to do, usually in the form of unique abilities or signature moves. Know what that got us? Primal Groudon and Kyogre, Geomancy Xerneas, and Mega Rayquaza, things I'm sure most Ubers players are less than enthusiastic about for one reason or another.
Gen 5 got Arceus's concept a little better with the original Dragon. For one thing, even with all the evidence, the Dragon itself is only alluded to, so it doesn't set some kind of power ceiling the way Arceus did. For another, it's not alluded to as so far above that it could create other Legendaries at will, since Reshiram and Zekrom, despite being in-game about as powerful as the Creation Trio, outright split from it and left it as Kyurem, significantly weaker. And last, the Dragon is praised as a God, but nothing in universe outright alludes to the theory it created the entire universe, rather just helped shape Unova, where it is worshiped. If Arceus was responsible for forming the entire universe, whether or not other regions worship it, I figure other regions would at least know it existed.
And this is less the games, but I also just hate Arceus because it's a literal God-Mode Sue in every other form of media, despite entailing some inconsistency.
In the HG/SS manga, despite the crap the Creation Dragons pull, the characters are still able to fight quite well against them, even conceivably beat them. Arceus, on the other hand, basically withstands all out attacks from the entire casts full teams, and only leaves because of seeing a bond between human and Pokemon or some shit, and the twist that "they thought that controlled him, but Arceus let them bring him here to test humanity" or crap like that.
Meanwhile, Arceus shows up in his movie somehow able to fight the 3 titan Dragons without much problem in an off screen battle, in a weakened state from lacking 5 plates (yet fucking Pikachu can stun it). What makes this feel like more of an ass pull is that Arceus somehow nearly died ramming a meteor and could also be killed by molten silver, the latter in spite of having plates that would make it resistant to whatever you'd class that as considering Heatran's presence. Also, giving Arceus one plate back after the meteor strike somehow lets it pull all 15 others back, yet it can't retrieve the 5 it used for the Jewel of Life on its own. The entire movie makes Arceus as OP as the plot demands it, because he has to be strong enough to threaten conflict, yet has to be weak enough that the actual villain can threaten him and we don't have to make God evil.
tl;dr Arceus is a lazy concept gameplay wise and lore wise, and I personally think he creates more problems than he should at his introduction and in hindsight.
I've been feeling that the best way to describe Arceus would be as Poke-Jesus. Real life Jesus wasn't super strong or powerful physically (biblical scholars believe He chose who He ended up living as in order to live the life of an average man at the time so people would be able to respect what He says but at the same time still feel approachable). Who says Arceus in his mortal form didn't do the same thing? Sure Arceus may be the most powerful Pokemon without an item, but it needs that for sort of an emergency button thing and controlling its own avatars (remember, they said Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina are different aspects of it. Same with Uxie, Mesprit, and Azelf).
The more I think of it though, the more I feel the Poke-religion would actually be more like Hinduism with effectively "one god" but with, in the Pokemon world case, dozens of avatars who each has dominion over a different aspect of life. Arceus in this case would just be the central avatar that helps regulate the other avatar, but its job is pretty much done as a creator.
The more I think of it though, the more I feel the Poke-religion would actually be more like Hinduism with effectively "one god" but with, in the Pokemon world case, dozens of avatars who each has dominion over a different aspect of life. Arceus in this case would just be the central avatar that helps regulate the other avatar, but its job is pretty much done as a creator.
THANK YOU.
This brings me to my unpopular opinion of the Gen 4 legendaries being the worst.
Well... okay, let's make a few exceptions to that first. Heatran's cool (despite being annoying as hell competitively imo but w/e), I like Darkrai and Cresselia's little story, Shaymin is love and Manaphy is fine. Regigigas and Phione are awful but those are for another time.
Right now I want to be concerning the Creation trio, Arceus and the Lake trio.
Design and battle-wise I'm fine with most of these - it's the lore I hate.
As highlighted largely in Pika Pal's comment, it's the fact that they're basically Gods. Not only does this take away a lot of mystery and intrigue from the universe by just saying "oh this guy created the world, this guy made time, ooh over here we've got the embodiment of spirit..." but it just seems downright lazy and bad storytelling. I mean... okay I've just gotten up so it's hard to collate my thoughts clearly, but if a complaint with Gen 5 is the new Pokémons' stats being a power creep, Gen 4's lore was a... myth creep. It didn't need to go this far and at the point we're catching the embodiment of knowledge in a Poké Ball - never mind the creator of time or fucking god or whatever - it's just downright silly.
You could argue Gen 3 was starting to go a little far in this aspect, but to me they were just a little away from the line. They weren't exactly gods. Yes they created the land and sea... but only through intense weather which, ORAS reveals, was only made available to them through some sort of earthly energy powering them up to ridiculous degrees. In addition, what they're doing is creating land and sea which is a longshot from what the seven DPP legends are doing. Plus Rayquaza has nothing of the sorts - it's just a powerful dragon who summons air and is just like "HEY GUYS, STOP BEING DICKS". The Weather trio have control over physical concepts - Arceus, the creation trio and the lake trio are the embodiment of or otherwise straight out created abstract, universe-fundamental concepts. It's a bit ridiculous.
On the other hand... Gen 5 introduced my favourite legends. ... aside from the kami trio they kind of suck
I've gone on about how I think BW's story pretty much committed plot suicide towards the end before, but it still has aspects I feel were handled well such as the character of N and the expanded roles of the Gym Leaders - like, holy fuck, they actually DO SOMETHING. Anyway, that aside, another aspect I feel was done extremely well was the legendaries. Reshiram and Zekrom represent truth and ideals, yes... but the key difference here is that they have no control over those abstract concepts and they do not embody them. There is nothing particularly godly about them; they just happen to be extremely powerful and intelligent creatures who side with people they deem heroes of what they represent. That's really fucking interesting. They are an isolated story that do not have control over any big, godly concepts like space or creation or willpower or all that bullshit; they just happen to be very powerful creatures that side with people they deem worthy. It's a fantastic idea.
And while we're on it... none of the other legends have anything to do with the Tao trio. That is another fantastic point. While the Tao Trio are the center of BW's story and myths - and rightly so - that doesn't mean the other legends have to have anything to do with them directly. Instead, the muskedeers for instance are my favourite minor legendary trio (quadruple?) because they have their own interesting isolated side story. They have come to mistrust humans due to being protectors of Pokémon who have been hurt by selfish humans. And that works on it's own, but in fact symbolizes what's happening in BW's story - doesn't the idea of something protecting Pokémon from humans and seeing any contact between them as harmful that the player helps realize isn't the truth sound familiar? And yet their little story still works on it's own. That's good fucking storytelling.
Also Kyurem eats children. The literal best Pokémon lore
Honestly, the problem with Ice is that basically all its weaknesses are to powerful attacking types, and also gives it a weakness to the most overpowered and overcentralizing move in the game (the elephant in Smogon's metaphorical room, but I digress). Having basically no resistances whatsoever doesn't help either.
After reading pika pal's and Kurona's post I think one of the main problems with the Gen IV Legendaries connected to Arceus is that they tried to stay both vague to maintain some mystery but also explained things to give it an backstory. When you try to do that you wind up making things seem more powerful than they're suppose to be. Not helping is that they're were messing with concepts of creationism, time, space, emotions, knowledge, and willpower. It's all fine and dandy to just create a myth around these creatures, but when you're going to have the player encounter them that illusion of power is sort of broken when they realize their starter can go toe-to-toe with these godly beings (you think you're tough s***, Dialga? EAT MY INFERNAPE'S CLOSE COMBAT!). I think GF wanted to allude to creation myths around the world which are vague but that doesn't work when you have the Pokemon in the myth physically appearing. Other generation's mascot Legendaries worked because they either kept vague (Gen II, Gen VI) or they went into detail (Gen III, Gen V).
We know very little about the Tower Duo and the Mortality Duo except that they existed, had interacted with people and Pokemon, and we know what they're basic power is. No vague myth to boost their status up, we just know what they did. Lugia and Ho-Oh are just powerful Pokemon that interacted closely with people. Xerneas can give life while Yveltal can cause death but they're not the embodiment of those concepts (or at least the only ones). Meanwhile while there are myths about the Weather Trio and the Tao Trio they go further into detail about how they went about doing what they do. Groudon and Kyogre didn't create land and water, they shaped it using their power to change the weather. Rayquaza doesn't control Groudon and Kyogre, it's just more powerful and it needs to physically appear to intimidate the two to back down (and in ORAS in order to face the Primals it first needed to Mega Evolve or else it wouldn't stand a chance against them). Reshiram and Zekrom aren't the embodiment of truth and ideals but rather a representation of them connected to a bigger backstory involving conflicting brothers who are sons to a king which a powerful dragon helped. Not wanting to pick sides it separated into two dragons to be able to help each of the sibling while unintentionally creating a third dragon which could be seen as the original's Dragon will to combine back into one. Never did they feel like gods but just very powerful Pokemon, even the original Dragon didn't sound like a god but a powerful Pokemon that helped the ancient Unova civilization.
Now taking things back, it could very well be that the Gen IV's Legendaries connected with Arceus just had their stories overblown. Maybe instead of Dialga and Palkia creating time and space they merely are just able to bend it and were used to "straighten" them out. Dialga and Palkia have some control over these powers but they can't do whatever they want (at least not without dire consequences). The Lake Trio aren't the embodiment of emotion, knowledge, and willpower but were used as the enablers for other beings to have those traits. It's not like if one of them disappear the thing they control also vanished, but rather each one is sort of like a key or remote that controls a machine. Dialga/Palkia/Lake Trio are no more Time/Space/Being Traits as my remote control is the television. Also out of them all I do find Giratina the most grounded as its just a guardian of a dimension which is needed to keep things together. Sure its treated to have just as much power as Dialga and Palkia but when you compared mythology saying Dialga/Palkia controls all of time and space, just being a ruler of another dimension isn't that outlandish.
But what about Arceus? I stick to my theory. The thing we're seeing isn't Arceus. The thing we know as Arceus is just a facade, an avatar created by the real creator to interact with us in the material world. Maybe there was something it could only do in the material world or maybe it wanted to give material beings an avatar they can point to and worship, but the real creator is busy doing creator things like maintaining the universe and creating other worlds. Heck, who's to say Arceus is the name of the creator, it could just be the avatar is called Arceus and infact there would be other Legendaries who were personally created by the creator if there isn't one already (could very well be the original Dragon was yet another avatar of the creator). If that's the case it makes sense that only ancient Sinnoh worshiped the Creation Trio. Since they were just tools to help create things and were set up in Sinnoh the Sinnoh people probably felt a connection with them so that's who they worshiped. Ancient Johto worshiped Lugia and Ho-Oh because they were the powerful Pokemon who were interacting with them and probably helped protect Johto. Ancient Hoenn worshiped Rayquaza because it protected them and kept order between Groudon and Kyogre. Obviously ancient Unova had the original Dragon which split into the Tao Trio who were then separately worshiped (well Reshiram and Zekrom were). The only ones who don't seem to have a Pokemon to worship in Kanto and Kalos. That could be because with Kanto being close to Johto that its protectors sort of leaked over to them whether they knew it or not but that said Lugia did have its servants (the Winged Mirages) overlooking the area for it. This could be the reason why Kanto advanced more scientifically than the more traditional Johto as they didn't feel there was a great creature watching them (when infact there was). As for Kalos, they definitely had two powerful Pokemon to worship but it didn't seem those Pokemon wanted to interact with people much. Xerneas and Yvetal were sort of treated like just part of nature while the ancient Kalos focused on human leaders to guide them and coexist with Pokemon.
We know very little about the Tower Duo and the Mortality Duo except that they existed, had interacted with people and Pokemon, and we know what they're basic power is. No vague myth to boost their status up, we just know what they did. Lugia and Ho-Oh are just powerful Pokemon that interacted closely with people. Xerneas can give life while Yveltal can cause death but they're not the embodiment of those concepts (or at least the only ones). Meanwhile while there are myths about the Weather Trio and the Tao Trio they go further into detail about how they went about doing what they do. Groudon and Kyogre didn't create land and water, they shaped it using their power to change the weather. Rayquaza doesn't control Groudon and Kyogre, it's just more powerful and it needs to physically appear to intimidate the two to back down (and in ORAS in order to face the Primals it first needed to Mega Evolve or else it wouldn't stand a chance against them). Reshiram and Zekrom aren't the embodiment of truth and ideals but rather a representation of them connected to a bigger backstory involving conflicting brothers who are sons to a king which a powerful dragon helped. Not wanting to pick sides it separated into two dragons to be able to help each of the sibling while unintentionally creating a third dragon which could be seen as the original's Dragon will to combine back into one. Never did they feel like gods but just very powerful Pokemon, even the original Dragon didn't sound like a god but a powerful Pokemon that helped the ancient Unova civilization.
Now taking things back, it could very well be that the Gen IV's Legendaries connected with Arceus just had their stories overblown. Maybe instead of Dialga and Palkia creating time and space they merely are just able to bend it and were used to "straighten" them out. Dialga and Palkia have some control over these powers but they can't do whatever they want (at least not without dire consequences). The Lake Trio aren't the embodiment of emotion, knowledge, and willpower but were used as the enablers for other beings to have those traits. It's not like if one of them disappear the thing they control also vanished, but rather each one is sort of like a key or remote that controls a machine. Dialga/Palkia/Lake Trio are no more Time/Space/Being Traits as my remote control is the television. Also out of them all I do find Giratina the most grounded as its just a guardian of a dimension which is needed to keep things together. Sure its treated to have just as much power as Dialga and Palkia but when you compared mythology saying Dialga/Palkia controls all of time and space, just being a ruler of another dimension isn't that outlandish.
But what about Arceus? I stick to my theory. The thing we're seeing isn't Arceus. The thing we know as Arceus is just a facade, an avatar created by the real creator to interact with us in the material world. Maybe there was something it could only do in the material world or maybe it wanted to give material beings an avatar they can point to and worship, but the real creator is busy doing creator things like maintaining the universe and creating other worlds. Heck, who's to say Arceus is the name of the creator, it could just be the avatar is called Arceus and infact there would be other Legendaries who were personally created by the creator if there isn't one already (could very well be the original Dragon was yet another avatar of the creator). If that's the case it makes sense that only ancient Sinnoh worshiped the Creation Trio. Since they were just tools to help create things and were set up in Sinnoh the Sinnoh people probably felt a connection with them so that's who they worshiped. Ancient Johto worshiped Lugia and Ho-Oh because they were the powerful Pokemon who were interacting with them and probably helped protect Johto. Ancient Hoenn worshiped Rayquaza because it protected them and kept order between Groudon and Kyogre. Obviously ancient Unova had the original Dragon which split into the Tao Trio who were then separately worshiped (well Reshiram and Zekrom were). The only ones who don't seem to have a Pokemon to worship in Kanto and Kalos. That could be because with Kanto being close to Johto that its protectors sort of leaked over to them whether they knew it or not but that said Lugia did have its servants (the Winged Mirages) overlooking the area for it. This could be the reason why Kanto advanced more scientifically than the more traditional Johto as they didn't feel there was a great creature watching them (when infact there was). As for Kalos, they definitely had two powerful Pokemon to worship but it didn't seem those Pokemon wanted to interact with people much. Xerneas and Yvetal were sort of treated like just part of nature while the ancient Kalos focused on human leaders to guide them and coexist with Pokemon.
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Okay can we pretty please get back to unpopular opinions? I should have never mention you know what in the first place.
Pokemon shouldn't be based off real-life religions or deity. This just attracts criticism from extremists from people who believe in God (and somehow thinks Pokemon is mocking the God) or people who don't believe in God (and thinks that Pokemon supports this idea so they blindly hate said Pokemon).
OK, for my own unpopular opinion,
1) Pokemon models should never have been made. They look much nicer as 2D sprites. The 3D models are pretty ugly, by today's standards.
2) Phione's existence serves no point other than screwing players who don't have a Manaphy but wishes to complete the Platinum Dex. It's just so average in battle and has no value at all.
3) Victini's signature move should be V-Create instead of Searing Shot which has no use on it because it has Blue Flare lol.
OK, for my own unpopular opinion,
1) Pokemon models should never have been made. They look much nicer as 2D sprites. The 3D models are pretty ugly, by today's standards.
2) Phione's existence serves no point other than screwing players who don't have a Manaphy but wishes to complete the Platinum Dex. It's just so average in battle and has no value at all.
3) Victini's signature move should be V-Create instead of Searing Shot which has no use on it because it has Blue Flare lol.
It only has Blue Flare via an Event (which also gave it V-Create). So, that last thing is rather... unnecessary. If they ever made it so Victini could learn all of the event moves (V-Create, Blue Flare, Bolt Strike, and Glaciate) naturally by level up, then I'd agree.
Besides, that last thing is not very unpopular. Searing Shot is terrible, use V-Create if you have it.