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Wobbuffet C+ --> B (or drop goth, I'll just be comparing them)
I was fooling around with this in No Status, OMOTM, and that made me decide that I ought to test it in OU again. SO I made a team with it, and Wobb is insanity. Wobb only really has one set, and I'll be comparing it to Goth's scarf set, the higher rated on on the rankings.
Goth traps stuff like Clef, but Wobb can too. Wobb can encore it, then mirror coat twice for the ko or switch out and allow free setup. Goth can get to plus 6 but what are you doing then? Hoopa and scizor wall your psyshock and easily ko back. Goth is more of a win con, but Wobb is a better trapper tbh. The better bulk is nice, and most mons can be easily identified as physical or special. Encore is great with a setup mon, and Wobb + Pinsir has been really working out for me. I don't really know how to quantify this unfortunately but I hope you guys realize that stall is dying out and goth is too weak vs offense. I don't know what you guys think though.
found the original wobb recommendation by thesecondbest , although it's in a different direction then I went because I don't believe comparing them is fair as they perform different roles.
That's mostly it... your opponent carrying an uncommon/semi-uncommon/unexpected Taunter or a surprise Taunt in general can hurt. Also, Taunters put lots of pressure on Wobbuffet; if a stallbreaker with Taunt coming in on Wob can force it out, meaning your opponent may have the upper hand even if Wobbuffet did it's job and killed something.
In general wobb almost never stays in on what comes in, because honestly they probably have a plan lol. Your opponent can't possibly have the upper hand if wobb did it's job, because it's job is to kill whatever threatens you the most. And a lot of mons can have mons switched in to revenge them, that isn't a wobb only thing like you are projecting it as.
Also I just noticed but ironically wobb countertraps and beats duggie which i nommed up as well lol. Oh well.
The highest atk stat in OU is nothing to laugh at, and with decent speed and access to dual priority (not that bp is needed on all teams) this mon is a huge threat and quite powerful. I support this strongly.
I support this as well. Gastro is underrated imo. Excellent defensive typing, and gives a tone of shit to a lot of common mons. Reliable recovery as well.
Support. Mew can run many sets viably, and similar to chomp can either be offensive or wally/defensive. Mew can set rocks, cleric with defog/roost/heal bell/knock off/whatever else your team needs etc, toxic stall, burn/rocky helmet/roost stall, expert belt mon with a huge movepool to fill in holes on your team, etc. Mew can just do a ton of different things, and in pregame lobby it's hard to predict what mew will do. I used mew on my protean palace team that I peaked #1 with, and yes this isn't OU but the point is that I am not just theorymonning and have personal success with mew. In general it's just a great mon and can do a ton.
Simply isn't on par with A+ mons. It's good but not A+ good imo. Though I will say that if we take AM's suggestion and change around how S and other ranks work, then it might fit better in A+.
Can't the same be said of any support pokemon? Even offensive pokemon like TG Manaphy are crippled by surprise taunts, yet, that doesn't hold Manaphy back from being considered for S. Why does it apply to Wobbuffet specifically? Wobbuffet still has Counter+Coat, so it isn't overly passive without encore. You can also switch out and just kill something later with Custap + Destiny Bond.
Once Wobbuffet did its job and killed something, then what's the point? Unless you're dealing with something that carries a setup move in addition to taunt, such as Mega Houndoom, but even then, you shouldn't be using Wobbuffet as your sole safety net.
Uh Manaphy isn't slow as balls, there's an enormous difference in taunting a Wobb and taunting a Manaphy cause the second one is easier said than done.
As far as Wobb goes it shouldn't go up so not exactly sure what all the hype is about. I rather see Gothitelle drop than Wobbuffet rise which I think is a more realistic scenario than gassing up a specific Pokemon like Wobbuffet in a meta where it's so reliant on luck to use effectively anyways, both with its sets being used and matchup. It's suppose effectiveness doesn't warrant a team slot at the level of B-.
Edit: Oh and by gothitelle dropping I mean in the same rank as Wobb.
Can't the same be said of any support pokemon? Even offensive pokemon like TG Manaphy are crippled by surprise taunts, yet, that doesn't hold Manaphy back from being considered for S. Why does it apply to Wobbuffet specifically? Wobbuffet still has Counter+Coat, so it isn't overly passive without encore. You can also switch out and just kill something later with Custap + Destiny Bond.
Once Wobbuffet did its job and killed something, then what's the point? Unless you're dealing with something that carries a setup move in addition to taunt, such as Mega Houndoom, but even then, you shouldn't be using Wobbuffet as your sole safety net.
Point is this puts lots of pressure on it's team and restricts Wobbuffet from fully doing it's job. A surprise Taunt means Wobbuffet can't Encore something (and you'll probably switch it out), and it can't abuse that Custap + Destiny Bond. Also, I never said Taunt is what's keeping Wobbuffet in C+... I actually wrote out a post explaining bigger reasons for this & I listed Taunt (and Counter/Mirror Coat) at the bottom because it's just a minor thing. With that said, Wobbuffet getting Taunted probably matters a bit more than your average support Pokemon lol. Again, Encore and Destiny Bond are pretty integral to maximizing the potential of Wobbuffet on a team, and Taunt limits those. -Clone-'s comment about "what's gonna Taunt a Wob" was definitely appropriate and I was just expanding on it. Again, Taunt isn't the biggest thing to keep in consideration with Wobbuffet, but it's certainly worth noting to provide (minor) support as to why Wobbuffet is kinda inconsistent and unreliable a lot of the time.
Also, on "You can also switch out and just kill something later with Custap + Destiny Bond.", see my previous post on this topic where I sorta explained why you can't rely on Custap + DBond in general. Sorry for the confusion & hopefully this helps to explain what I meant before a bit better :x
People who are still comparing Gallade to Medicham shouldn't be allowed to speak about the Pokemon. My opinion.
I support Mienshao moving up, the LO set is pretty decent both with Reckless and Regenerator. It has a lot of cool stuff to play with like Knock Off, U-Turn, and a decently powerful HP Ice (it's even non-contact for Chomp!). It can also run a Scarf set which I personally think is less impressive than LO, but I guess it's worth a mention. I know I'm not saying much but I'd just be repeating whay Halcyon and Karxrida already said, so.
I'd personally put it at C, it really is better than Pokemon below that rank.
Some pages ago someone brought up Jirach(ee)i for A and I agree. The set I want to promote is the Pivot one. In this meta, CM isn't that good. While you might say that this set is outclassed by M-Scizor, and while it sort of is, Jirachi has to godly moves: Stealth Rock and Healing Wish. Its a lot like the Latis in that case, Latios is generally better, but Latias has HW which saves it from being outclassed. Also, I don't think there should be a 2 subrank difference between the 2, 1 is enough lol. For reference, I will compare Jirachi and M-Scizor
M-Scizor
=====
Reliable Recovery
More threatening with SD
Better pivot, due to less speed, better Bulk and less weaknessess
Jirachi
====
Has two great moves: Healing Wish and Stealth Rock.
Can lure threats with its crazy movepool.
Only 2x weakness to Fire, allowing it to take a weak HP Fire
Faster, allowing it to outspeed some key threats
Iron head has 60% flinch hax. This helps it win some scenarios.
bludz A- -> C
i talked to the rating team they all agree 100%
I fully support Rotom-H being moved up to C+ rank. On top of the advantages listed by WCAR on the last page, Rotom-H is still a great flying check that can do most of what Rotom-W can do. Part of what made Rotom-W good, aside from the bird resist, was its resistance to water. However, its biggest downfall is its susceptibility to being worn down by strong hits (both resisted and neutral) and status. This doesn't help Rotom-W when it is often the team's best switch-in to Scald, thus leading to it getting worn down by burns and such. Rotom-H exchanges the water resistance for a few key resistances including fairy, grass and electric. None of these types really come with significant drawbacks like Scald burns, and the fire type also makes Rotom-H immune to both burns and paralysis. I feel like there's a lot more to discuss on Rotom-H, and I'm currently trying to build around it so I may have a few replays to offer in the future.
I moved Cress down to C-. It's dogshit and was so obvious the moment I asked team for an opinion.
More discussion points by Henry and TDK.
Henry:
landot to A
hippowdon to a+
volcarona b+
mew to a
medicham to a-/a
tangrowth to b
tentacruel to b-
cresselia to low c/c-
rotom-h to c/c+
tentacruel to b-
dont give a fuck about d rank
[8/9/15, 12:47:34 AM] Henry: : D
[8/9/15, 12:47:41 AM] Henry: DONT MOVE BRELOOM DOWN LOL
TDK:
Manaphy A+ -> S
Mega Latias A -> B+
Mega Slowbro A- -> A
Medicham B+ -> A-
Scolipede B+ -> B
Mega Gallade B+ -> B - iffy
Feraligatr B -> B+
Gastrodon B- -> B - iffy
Tangrowth B- -> B
Infernape B- -> C+ - iffy
Heracross C+ - C
Kyurem C -> C+
Rotom-H C- -> C+
Regular Metagross -> C
btw if you want me to explain any of those lmk - tdk
trc:
[8/9/15, 12:48:02 AM] AM: trc
[8/9/15, 12:48:08 AM] AM: if you got any opinions speak now
[8/9/15, 12:48:10 AM] AM: before I post to ask thread
[8/9/15, 12:48:56 AM] trc: I have an opinion
[8/9/15, 12:48:58 AM] trc: am post a picture
So lately i've been experimenting with stall teams + offensive mega and oh lordy loo Medicham is so godly it is unreal. Decent speed tier, decent priority options, very hard hitting stab HJK and while its bulk isnt great its not the most god-awful either and can take a neutral hit or two. Has very nice coverage move options, bulk up/baton pass/ice punch/punches/pup etc and is really an underrated mega imo. Its sheer power with HJK means that even resisted hits do about 40-60% and often it only needs a small amount of prior damage to 2hko most defensive walls or just straight up power through them anyway
calcs:
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 144+ Def Hippowdon: 181-214 (43 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Latios: 156-184 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 171-202 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham Zen Headbutt vs. 252 HP / 176 Def Clefable: 168-198 (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Metagross: 183-216 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Garchomp: 193-228 (45.9 - 54.2%) -- 50.8% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 136+ Def Mandibuzz: 199-235 (47 - 55.5%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 147-174 (44 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 60+ Def Mega Scizor: 169-199 (49.2 - 58%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Pure Power Medicham High Jump Kick vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 169-201 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Considering most balance teams will rely on maybe 1/2 physical walls such as hippo/skarm/clef, these are the common walls that medicham excels in breaking down. The things that wall it are hard walls that resist either 1 or both stabs such as def lando-t/slowbro/zapdos which apart from slowbro are not the most common physical walls most teams pack.
Couple of replays to back up my support for Mega-Medi:
Of course its not always sunshine and moonbeams for medicham, Ghosts really screw it over with HJK mispredicts and protect is always annoying combined with the miss chance sometimes can be frustrating but overall this is a very very potent mega that certainly can hold its own and deserves a raise.
I'd like to say that Thundurus-i could come back to his roots as an s tier Pokemon. With my favourite set being the prankster one (Twave, Tbolt, Focus miss Hpice, 252 spatk 252 speed 4def timid nature and Life Orb) he can check and nearly shut down most of s and a+. While most ground types believe they can switch in on Thundurus that is simply not true. Pokemon like garchomp and lando t(defensive) often switch in on him and even if you were to use tbolt u would still out speed and kill them with hpice. With the move set I've included above thundurus can reliably check and kill the pokemon in the a+ tier listed: azumarill, Bisharp(to an extent), Excadrill, garchomp, gyrados mega, heatran, keldeo, landorus-t, lopunny-mega(prankster t wave), manaphy, talonflame(to an extent) and torn-t not to mention this poke can shut down all of the s tier with twave. BTW the only set of chomp that can live is tank.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Garchomp: 426-504 (119.3 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 8 SpD Landorus-T: 395-468 (103.4 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
that being said tankchomp barely lives so if u predict the switch u get a free kill and its an even higher chance of happening if u have SR on the field.
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 380-447 (90.4 - 106.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
That being said im not going to disagree thundurus has problems. He is destroyed by scarf lando t and cant hurt Hippowdon much but who doesnt have a water type like Azu to combat him plus scarf lando-t is killed if u predict a switch. And he can struggle to switch in on some of the a+ pokes i listed but I still firmly believe he is an s-tier pokemon.
Seriously though Thundurus is a great mon, but I don't see what has changed for it that would make it S. I also don't think it's better or more relevant than some of the A+ mons.
It has been discussed previously, when the meta was a lot kinder to mLop. Now, despite what people are saying, a lot of ORAS OU is still fat balance and a bit of offense sprinkled around. mLop is known for absolutely obliterating Offense, that is nothing new, however with mZam on the rise that makes mLop's job ten times harder now than it was then. However, S is still over shooting it. I was once a very avid mLop user, and even then I was against a rise to S. It's unresisted STAB is nice, don't get me wrong, however, it's not as amazing as many made it out to be. It does abuse High Base power moves, which is nice, against offense as stated before, however, Balance can stomach most hits and recover it off with little to no problem and either force it out or outright take it out. Maybe, and I say this very lightly, if the meta does become an offense ridden meta again like people are claiming it already is, then I can see a rise to S. It's just not in a super advantageous spot right now. A+ is more than fitting for the moment.
EDIT: I want the fact that I absolutely hate mLop now to be put on record.
I'll preface this comment by saying this is my own interpretation of the ranking threads, nothing more nothing less. This version also establishes what some of the ranking guys were discussing in some convos about establishing a different approach in the S rank category. I'll also say that unless I'm significantly inclined to I'll probably not be replying to a whole lot here that I get quoted on if at all. Sort of wanted to steer the thread into better discussion points since it's been in need of one for a bit. The original version from my potw has changed it a bit after seeing a couple of things and realize this isn't all alphabetical either, and is subject to change in the long run as I see new stuff and read arguments of course. Anyways on to show.
S Rank
Altaria (Mega)
Charizard (Mega-X)
Clefable
Azumarill (change)
Garchomp (change)
Manaphy (change)
A+ Rank
Bisharp
Excadrill
Gengar (Debatable in the long run)
Gyarados (Mega)
Hoopa Unbound
Heatran
Keldeo
Landorus-T
Lopunny (Mega)
Latios
Metagross (Mega)
Sableye (Mega)
Scizor (Mega)
Talonflame
Thundurus
Tornadus-T
Weavile (change)
A Rank
Diancie (Mega) (change)
Alakazam (Mega)
Charizard (Mega-Y)
Ferrothorn
Gardevoir (Mega)
Hippowdon
Klefki (change)
Kyurem-B
Latias (Mega)
Manectric (Mega)
Skarmory
Slowbro
Slowbro (Mega) (change)
Starmie
Tyranitar
Venusaur (Mega) (This could probably be A+ just for its defensive set alone, we debated about it behind the scenes all the time when I was on team)
A- Rank
Gliscor (change)
Aerodactyl (Mega)
Alakazam
Gyarados
Jirachi
Latias (change)
Magnezone
Mew
Pinsir (Mega)
Politoed
Raikou
Rotom-W
Serperior (could be argued for A)
Volcarona
B+ Rank
Breloom
Celebi (change)
Diggersby
Dragonite
Feraligatr (change)
Gallade (Mega)
Heracross (Mega)
Hydreigon
Kabutops
Kingdra
Mamoswine
Medicham (Mega)
Scolipede
Slowking
Suicune
Swampert (Mega)
Terrakion
Togekiss
B Rank
Beedrill (Mega) (people argue this all the time to drop but most m-bee teams that are built well are so annoying to face)
Chansey
Crawdaunt
Dragalge (change)
Empoleon
Garchomp (Mega)
Hawlucha
Quagsire
Omastar
Reuniclus
Sceptile (Mega)
Scizor Tangrowth (change)
Tyranitar (Mega)
Victini (change)
Zapdos
B- Rank
Amoonguss
Azelf (change)
Cobalion
Conkeldurr
Gastrodon
Hoopa
Lucario
Magneton
Mandibuzz
Pidgeot (Mega) (change)
Sharpedo (Mega) (change)
Sylveon
Tentacruel (change) Toxicroak
Tyrantrum (could argue for B)
C+ Rank
Alomomola
Ampharos (Mega)
Banette (Mega) (change)
Blastoise (Mega)
Bronzong (change)
Chesnaught (change)
Entei (change)
Gothitelle (change)
Heracross
Houndoom (Mega) (change)
Infernape (change)
Seismitoad
Staraptor
Thundurus-T (I saw a rank nom for this to move up and I don't think it should. Needs a lot of things out of the way to work well / team support)
Wobbuffet
Whimsicott (change)
C Rank
Absol (Mega)
Cofagrigus
Cresselia (change)
Dugtrio (A case can be made for moving up. I've been using a Char-X, Volcarona, Dugtrio combo and it's monstrous.)
Goodra
Gourgeist-XL
Krookodile
Kyurem
Latios (Mega) ( I would unrank this personally)
Rhyperior (change)
Rotom-H
Porygon2
Shuckle
C- Rank
Aggron (Mega)
Blissey
Forretress
Froslass
Pangoro
Meloetta (change)
Metagross (change)
Nidoking (change)
Nidoqueen (change)
Venusaur (change)
D Rank
Abomasnow (Mega) (change)
Chandelure
Camerupt (Mega) (change)
Cloyster
Emboar
Espeon (I'd unrank this personally)
Haxorus
Honchkrow
Jellicent
Mienshao
Roserade (change)
Sableye
Salamence
Shaymin
Smeargle
Zygarde (change)
Justification for each choice / change or just general stuff based on discussion points. I'll start with S rank by itself first in this comment and how I perceive it. I'd like people to sort of gauge an opinion on this rank alone. I was planning on touching upon everything but rather not get the topic all over the place. The other placements should be stuff to consider in the future or as a reference point if you so desire for yourself or others. It'd be nice if people helped steer discussion since it clearly helps just so people don't lose their minds. Let's start.
The Revamp of S:
Cases for M-Altaria being dropped in this thread while may be warranted depending on who you ask, I believe isn't necessarily the right time to say it's gotten worse. It hasn't necessarily gotten better, but it still puts an immense amount of team-building constraint with its Dragon Dance set. What pushes M-Altaria to the edge is the combination of defensive utility packed with offensive process being granted two of the most consistent typings in the OU meta if not the game of Pokemon itself. This is all coupled in with coverage to, as cliche as it sounds, pick and choose its counters. The increase in Mega Scizor may be a problem to some extent but this is where Fire Blast has become more viable as a coverage move in the meta, thus making Mega Scizor a shaky answer at best. Its adaptability is also shown in the usage of Speed nature M-Altarias using Jolly natures to outspeed the likes of Bisharp all the way up to Heatran. Most players have caught on to this and the amount of support it needs to actually get its snowball effects going is very small. It's S for its Dragon Dance variants alone. The other sets are just icing on the cake.
While Mega Altaria is revered as one of the best defensive Dragon Dancers, Charizard-X is the premiere offensive Dragon Dancer at this point in time. Its checks are limited to highly defensive waters and grounds such as Slowbro, Defensive Lando-T, Hippowdon and as the sets become more detailed based on team these checks start to diminish in the team-builder phase. Charizard-X's team support is one partner at best and perhaps just hazard support, which is a necessity of every team anyways, and its partners being some of the larger team building constraints in the tier already such as Manaphy and Serperior. The tier right now puts emphasis and rewards those who can excel at both power and speed. Doing both at once similar to the likes of Volcarona and PuP Lopunny is a strong appeal warranting a teamslot. Doing this and already providing every positive that comes with being Zard-X with little necessary to remove its large issue in SR certifies itself as an S rank threat.
Clefable will be the symbol of balance as much as people like to fool themselves in thinking that it has remotely gotten worse. Hoopa-Us presence hasn't faltered Clefables traits, even encouraging the use of more Unaware T-Wave variants for balance to tackle threats such as Manaphy, Serperior, SD Chomp and hinder the progress of certain Dragon Dancers like Mega Altaria. The sentiment from players thinking Clefable has gotten worse is always coming from an offensive player position, when you need to take into account the player pool who aren't solely focused on high octane offense. Being prepped for fairies like the next point about Azumarill, is not being prepared for Clefable. When one asks are you prepped for fairies, it's indicating Clefable as being one of the defining ones in the tier subliminally, players associated to the tier know this, it's almost second nature at this point. It's a much more exclusive fairy because it has a combination of traits that smooths out many balanced builds and cores to succeed in the meta while naturally providing incredible assets in a dragon immunity, hazard immunity with Magic Guard, and Unaware as a fall back for various offensive threats. It is the practical definition of an S rank Pokemon for a balance team / archetype.
Azumarill is part of the new S in my eyes. The increase in Zard-X, Weavile, Heatran, the omni-present usage of sand balance, the lack of actual good counter-play against Azumarill that isn't exploitable to hazards or aren't even solid answers to begin with such as Rotom-W, has put Azumarill in my eyes one of the largest team-building constraints. Counter arguments always include such things as, "well it's slow, it can be revenge killed" when this is much easier said than done. Azumarill is able to create situations through either itself or through its team to guarantee a kill per game. This kill per game aspect comes from its ability to not be part of the typical water and fairy stereotypes associated in handling it cause it sports the traits of both at once, and the freedom and utility to change what it wants to beat and how it supports a team-mate at a much higher level than those of the A+ rank to me. When Mega Venusaur becomes one of the only counters to you and the tier puts themselves in a position to get murdered by a BD or Band Azu, it's time to move the bunny up.
Garchomp is a weird case. Under the current S it's impossible to put it at S, which we've had to refuse everytime it was brought up. You can't exactly put it on the level of Char-X and M-Alt because these two are sort of the extremes of the picture that symbolize an S rank, to the point that from a comparison value people wanted to drop Clefable and thought it was a good idea to have only two megas in S ._. . This is where the change of S comes to more fruition. Tank chomp, Scarf Chomp, SD chomp, and Sash Chomp the combination of these sets is where my justification for S stems from. Each of these sets holds a certain amount of viability on a variety of teams, a variety that applies to just about every single viable archetype. Tankchomp has changed the way so many teams and Pokemon have had to adapt and putting an emphasis on the shift towards specially inclined Pokemon to avoid using contact attackers. It was the beginning of M-Metagross and its decline in fame and even level of brokenness in the eyes of many, the shift towards offensive SD Landorus-T as opposed to Scarf, Wisp Talonflame as its offensive variants became more difficult to use on all teams all the time which wasn't the case before, these are just a few and this only starts on some of the more centralizing Pokemon in the tier not touching upon every single nuance. Tankchomp has maintained consistency even with the rise of threats such as Weavile and Zard-X, while still having the benefits of its offensive variants that we all know and love. Sporting a speed tier that stands above the likes of M-Gard, the Zards, Kyurem-B, basically base 100 and below is what gives it such an edge for a teamslot. There's not a whole lot of elaboration that I think is necessary since many know what it does and know how vital it is to the tier in terms of team-building and threat level.
Manaphy I think should've been S for awhile after much playing, thought, and deliberation. The counterarguments for this one is that it's weak without a Tail Glow and that once again can be revenge killed. So considering all this being said, why is it that Manaphy has been a point of discussion to myself and other council members from a variety of players to be suspected and to many balance and defensive oriented players broken? That's sort of the problem right now with the counter argument assertions, they're contradictory to what a majority of players outside of this thread have spoken upon and seen. Manaphy is the definition of a wall-breaker, it will break something and these scenarios that it does break something are easily found. The tiers slow shift towards a more offensive meta is partially to blame from Manaphy, with Hoopa-U certifying this to what is practically a new meta shift. Manaphy is one the most powerful water types in the tier and it dictates a lot of team-building, dictates a lot of player control, and it not only has the threat level of something top tier but one that is even able to supplement other top tier threats to succeed such as Zard-X. Being broken is questionable, but I don't think being S is hard to consider if we go a different route for S rank and the fact it's such a defining force against the balanced archetype and the way said playstyle has had to adapt, and even then adapting not too well.
So that's my thought of what S should look like. Obviously there's different perception of S but to me that's what I think has enough effectiveness to maintain themselves there. At a later point I'll bring up the other ranks.
I'm going to through my support behind a Mienshao raise. However, outside of what has already been said, I'd like to give a nod to both its CB and Choice Scarf sets. For starters, Adamant Reckless CB HJK is ridiculous (it hits harder then even Mega Medi's HJK), being able to 2HKO bulky resists like Clefable, Mega Latias, and Offensive Mega Venu when factoring in rocks. It also OHKOs Offensive resists like Torn-T and Latios after rocks. From there it gets stone edge to kill Bulky Flyers, Mega Pinsir, Mega Beedrill, and Weakened Mega Sableye, Knock off to kill psychics + ghosts, and u-turn for momentum and to hit Psychics. It also gets PJab if you want to go that route. Choice Scarf is a lot simpler: It OHKOs mons like Keldeo and 2HKOs mons like Latias with rocks simply via Adamant Reckless HJK, has a speed tier equal to that of choice scarf Lando-T, then gets PJab, Knock Off, and U-turn to hit HJK resists.
tl;dr: Mienshao has an incredibly hard hitting STAB coupled with nice coverage that allow it to run multiple sets that can harass multiple play styles, putting it a notch above D-Rank.
Tangrowth is a very interesting pokemon, having exceptional physical bulk as well as decent offensive stats, but lacking special defense and speed. The reason why I think Tangrowth should rise is because of it being able to run multiple sets that can each carry out it's own function, making Tangrowth quite versatile.
The first set, Physically Defensive, has amazing utility in Leech Seed and Knock Off and is able to beat the majority of physical attackers in all of OU that lack a STAB Super effective attack. Being able to counter Metagross, Landorus-T, Excadrill, Gyarados, and checking several others is no small feat. With Regenerator, Tangrowth finds it's job of sponging attacks and annoying the opponent with Knock Off and Leach Seed extremely easy. With pure grass typing, Tangrowth is immune to Leech Seed and Powder moves, which is also a plus. With infestation, Tangrowth can beat several things that plan to switch in just to pivot out of a leech seed or giga drain, such as Ferrothorn. Tangrowth also has access to Sleep Powder, which can really support the team a lot. Compared to fellow grass type Mega Venusaur, Tangrowth finds itself being able to switch repeatedly into battle, while Venusaur gets worn down rather quickly.
The next set, Assault Vest, makes Tangrowth's poor special defense stat noticeably better. This allows Tangrowth to check Manaphy, Starmie, and the Latis, all A rank pokemon, while also being able to check physical attackers. Like Tornadus-T, Tangrowth makes a good assault vest user due to it's ability, regenerator, which makes Tangrowth not reliant on Wish Support. While Tangrowth loses on the utility of Sleep Powder and Leech Seed, its still able to annoy the foe with Knock Off.
The last set, Choice Specs, is a very underrated set (which I may be the only person who actually uses it in OU) hits incredibly hard. With Choice Specs, Tangrowth has immediate power, easily OHKOing some of the bulkiest pokemon in the tier with the correct move. Here are some calcs displaying Choice Specs Tangrowth's power:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 292-348 (82.9 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Garchomp: 354-417 (84.2 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 276-325 (90.7 - 106.9%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Metagross Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 175-207 (43.3 - 51.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 340-404 (114.4 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Ancient Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 220-260 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Hidden Power Fire vs. 248 HP / 176 SpD Mega Scizor: 324-384 (94.4 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tangrowth Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 192+ SpD Heatran: 278-328 (72.2 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Also, nominating Whimsicott to C+. With OK defensive stats of 60/85/75 as well as decent typing of grass/fairy and a fantastic ability in Prankster backed up by a load of status moves, Whimsicott finds a niche as a support pokemon. As the only viable pokemon in OU to have access to prankster and encore (nobody cares about your Baton Pass Volbeat), Whimsicott can find many opportunities to come in and give another one of your pokemon to set up. This also allows Whimsicott to set up other status moves, such as Tailwind, Trick Room (Prankster does not give this priority for those wondering), Leech Seed, Stun Spore, etc. It can also pivot out with U-Turn for momentum (your opponent will probably switch if they get encore'd into a status move) as well as Memento if you really want something to come in and sweep. It also has Moonblast to prevent itself from becoming taunt bait.
Typing wise, this thing is fantastic. Thanks to it's fairy typing, it can switch into a dragon type move and encore the opponent, likely forcing them to switch. Whimsicott acts as a fantastic Dragon Check thanks to this, allowing it to come into Garchomp, Charizard X, and the Latis with a bit of prediction. It's typing allows it to wall a variety of offensive pokemon, such as Breloom, Keldeo, and Kingdra. Whimsicott can act as a fantastic member of a FWG core that usually pulls it's weight, especially when paired up with Heatran (in my experience).
To conclude, Whimsicott should go to C+. The only things holding it back are it's mediocre bulk and a somewhat unreliable source of recovery in leech seed.
Okay this is probably gonna be kinda long so bear with me.
First up I'd like to address a potential S Rank revamp.
I think we're in a strange situation where the three pokemon AM mentioned as being potential candidates to move up are both a small notch above the rest of A+ but still a bit below some of the monsters in S rank. This makes it difficult to choose a rank for them and makes us all want A++ or S- which just don't really make sense to add. I would honestly say that I think their level of viability differs more from the other pokemon in A+ than those in S and I would support the S rank revamp. I know you may think it is strange to say this when Mega Altaria and Mega Charizard X are such monsters but you have to consider that they are Mega pokemon and normal ones are just going to have trouble standing up to them in general. Despite being S rank there is still a cost to choosing to use up your Mega slot on these 2 monsters and that's the inability to run a different very viable Mega which may be more beneficial to your team in some way. I would still put them a bit above Clefable and these other three but it's not such a huge difference when considering splashability if you ask me. AM has pretty much outlined the reasons for each mons but I'll go over my own reasoning very briefly.
Azumarill is a very difficult pokemon for offense to deal with despite its low speed tier because of the incredibly small number of things that resist both STABs, plus with its power this thing is a nuke. BD vs CB mindgames are capable of getting a kill on their own which is not even required for Azu to get a kill in most matches. Pair it all with an amazing defensive typing and reasonable bulk making it difficult for offense to OHKO and this thing's averaging a kill or more per match. Against bulkier teams, CB can apply a lot of pressure to teams that don't have Mega Venusaur, since even Mega Scizor and Skarmory don't take CB Waterfalls too well after Stealth Rocks.
Garchomp is a very versatile pokemon and its offensive sets are vastly underrated right now. I'm personally not that big of a fan of Sash but Lum Berry SD is still excellent as are sets like Life Orb SD and Choice Scarf. We all know how good Tank sets are and they have a variety of options for the last move as well. Amazing glue on all sorts of offensive teams with walling to wallbreaking capabilities with just a solid stat spread, movepool and typing.
Manaphy, unlike Azumarill, is not a threat immediately. However it also has pretty much no counters because of its insane boosting ability and coverage with the ability to run Rain Dance sets for stall and Unaware Clefable. Basically this is the kind of mon you throw on your team and you absolutely pick and choose your counters, even more so than previous beasts such as Landorus which had surefire counters in Mega Latias. Not the fastest thing but it has pretty solid bulk and a good defensive typing making it somewhat difficult to hit super effectively, which allows it to set up a TG most of the time. Also I'm telling you guys, Sitrus Berry is totally underrated on this monster. Gives you a much better matchup against offense and is still good against balance.
Next I'd like to discuss some of the discussion points AM brought up as outlined by Henry and TDK
Mega Medicham B+ -> A-
I agree. This thing has certainly increased in viability despite the metagame becoming a little more offensive oriented again. The reasoning is that its power is actually absurd and has been long overlooked in favor of Gallade which I think it fares better than in the current metagame. Fake Out and Bullet Punch are great moves against offense which do a ton of damage even without STAB. Baton Pass is excellent for momentum and it has coverage moves like Ice Punch and Thunderpunch to deal with some would be counters such as Slowbro and Celebi. Unfortunately Mega Sableye, which is rising in popularity again, walls it but many of the bulky psychic types like Celebi and Mew have become less popular which means most balance teams don't have a good answer to this. I still think that this should be a sub rank higher than Gallade at the moment and I'm more inclined to move it up than Gallade down but I could see an argument for the other way around.
Tangrowth B- -> B
Yes. This is one of the better bulky grass types to slap on a team at this point and has some distinct advantages over Chesnaught and Amoonguss. Firstly with the Assault Vest it has more special bulk than Chesnaught and has Regenerator recovery to be a better pivot as well. It's far less passive than Amoonguss with solid attacking stats and a diverse movepool including moves such as Knock Off, Earthquake, Rock Slide and Sludge Bomb. Overall better than these two which share a sub rank with it at the moment.
Metagross D -> C-
I think this should move up as well. I haven't played with it extensively but it is still a nice bulky steel type with good utility in Bullet Punch and Pursuit. Assault Vest variants can be extremely efficient at trapping Latis and it has the bulk to take a +1 EQ from Mega Altaria while posing a big threat to fairy types in general (and fairies kinda rule the metagame).
I am also of the opinion that Mega Latias should drop. It's still a pretty good pokemon but its largest niche was being the foundation for balance teams in the Landorus era. The list of threats that it checks is still pretty big but the biggest one is gone and thus one of the biggest reasons to use it is also gone. A lot of the time a bulky regular Latias still achieves some of the same results like checking Keldeo and Zard Y while still having the options to run sets like Calm Mind and Thunder Wave, Roar, etc which people tend to overlook and always just go for offensive Defog.
I have opinions on some other things but this post is already pretty long so I'll save them for now.
Henry:
landot to A: Agree. Probably about time it drops, the popularity of rocky helmet garchomp hurts both its ability to spam u-turn and its ability to get on teams
hippowdon to a+: Agree. A tad passive, but more than makes up for it in terms of what it counters and outright utility.
volcarona b+: Agree. In and of itself it's probably A, but the amount of team support it demands makes it harder to build around.
mew to a: Agree. One of the few counters to MMeta and a solid counter to MLop, as well as several others, with an enormous movepool making it pretty easy to slap on teams.
medicham to a-/a: Disagree. I don't feel strongly either way but fat psychics and fat fairies everywhere just kinda dissuade it, but it's still a great wallbreaker and less prepared for.
tangrowth to b: Agree. Defensive Grass types are kinda hard to find now, but Tang does it pretty well. The mon absolutely fucks over sand too, which has been an excellent playstyle for a while
tentacruel to b-: Agree. Lack of reliable recovery is really the nastiest thing here, and its poison type really doesn't help it much with the exception of beating Clefable.
cresselia to low c/c-: already been done lol
rotom-h to c/c+: Undecided. Honestly I haven't seen the thing since Genesect was around.
tentacruel to b-: nigga wat
TDK:
Manaphy A+ -> S: Disagree. I honestly feel that, similar to Suicune and Mega Slowbro, it's just one of those things you really, really should prepare for and yet nobody does.
Mega Latias A -> B+: Agree. It's a cool wincon but really needs a good amount of support to pull off a sweep
Mega Slowbro A- -> A: Agree. While it's a similar case to Manaphy, it's pretty underrated
Medicham B+ -> A-: See above
Scolipede B+ -> B: Agree. rip BP
Mega Gallade B+ -> B - iffy: Disagree. Leave poor Mega Gallade alone, what'd he ever do to you :(. Seriously though, while it requires a good amount of support, it can do a pretty good job of cleaning.
Feraligatr B -> B+: Undecided. It hits crazy hard, but a good portion of the meta seems to wall it. Also faces competition from Gyarados and its Mega.
Gastrodon B- -> B - iffy: Undecided. I've fooled around with it a bit, it's not fantastic, it's not terrible :/
Tangrowth B- -> B: See above
Infernape B- -> C+ - iffy: Agree. Why ever would you use a Fire-type in the Fairy meta that doesn't resist Fairies lmao
Heracross C+ - C: Agree. I don't even know why you would use Heracross and I've never felt inclined to do so, even though I do know what it's theoretically supposed to do.
Kyurem C -> C+: Disagree. Kinda gimmicky outside of hail, and hail itself is a gimmick.
Rotom-H C- -> C+: See above
Regular Metagross -> C: C-. Interesting choice for offensive teams but a ton of competition from Bronzong and Jirachi.
trc:
[8/9/15, 12:48:02 AM] AM: trc
[8/9/15, 12:48:08 AM] AM: if you got any opinions speak now
[8/9/15, 12:48:10 AM] AM: before I post to ask thread
[8/9/15, 12:48:56 AM] trc: I have an opinion
[8/9/15, 12:48:58 AM] trc: am post a picture
^ i gotchu
Since I saw mega gallade in the discussion point I'll drop my opinion and say I think it's fine in B+. I was around when this was overhyped in the beginning of ORAS and it has certainly fallen out of favor, but I believe B+ is where it should stay. I'm on mobile right now so I will post some replays when I get home (and calcs if needed). I used the standard SD set of CC/Zen/Knock Off/SD, because at this point, the two big things gallade has over medi is knock and SD, but ice punch can be used over knock off, but the only use gallade has for that is hitting garchomp (noting that gallade does outspeed offensive chomp, which medi does not). Gallade I see as a jack of all trades, master of none catagory. It has a nice 165 base attack, but unboosted isnt hitting too hard. It also has 110 base speed, which is good, but not great, tying with threats like The Latis, Gengar and Diance. Tying with these is a 50/50, but if your opponent needs one of these mons, they may be inclined to switch out as to not risk the tie, but the same can be said for the gallade user. Gallades bulk may not be the best, but it is passable for setting up. 68/95/115 bulk is passable letting it survive strong neutral hits such as latios's psyshock, and LO Thunderus's thunderbolt (remember off the top of my head, but calcs can be provided), so if gallade has managed to get to +2, it's bulk can be handy in a pinch. Some things gallade can potentially set up on include defensive Starmie, defensive Heatran (watch out for burns), Ferrothron lacking T-wave, as well as anything that Gallade threatens at +0, such as Mega Venusaur and Tyranitar.
I'm not just going to point out Gallades pros without its cons. Gallade is tough to mega evolve with its base 80 speed which may leave it having to take a hit. There are common Pokemon that can wall gallade at +2, like mega Sableye, hippo, (mega) Slowbro, and unaware clef (gallade beats Magic Guard 1v1). Gliscor and Landorus-T also stop Gallade pretty well if it lacks ice punch, but most of these can be patched with proper teammates like TG Manaphy to threaten the bulky grounds and Clefable to beat Sableye. Being part fighting type means you won't be cleaning if the opponent has talonflame in the back as it can come in on a free switch and force you out. Gallade may hit the bench mark 110, but he is still outsped by common Pokemon like Tornadus, Offensive Starmie, Lopunny, mega Aero and Alakazam. Gallade also won't be switching into too many things considering its bulk is only good enough to take a hit to set up not really to switch into attacks. Knock off also lets it hit psychic types, but not always beat them. Bulky psychics likes Mew and Celebi can take a knock off, recover the damage, and neuter Gallade (burn it in mews case, t-wave/set up rocks for celebi). Gallade sets up better against defensive teams and balance, but with the meta game becoming more offensive leaves Gallade with less set up opportunities.
Overall, keep Mega Gallade B+ While it was overhyped and does have common check and counters, it does still do a decent job of cleaning late game with proper team support.
How so? Bronzong is annoyingly passive and just sits there tanking hits while wishing it could recover reliably. Jirachi is nowhere near as passive as Bronzong and can tank hits better, but it's still weak compared to Metagross and neither of them can trap the lati twins.
With AV Metagross you get several benefits on top of the usual bulky steel stuff that Jirachi and Bronzong give. It gets pursuit to actually trap the twins (we all know how valuable this is), it's an extremely powerful offensive monster (seriously, adamant MM fucking hurts anything and everything that is unfortunate enough not to resist), and it gets strong priority in Bullet Punch to revenge crap like DD Altaria, Diancie, and Weavile after rocks/life orb damage.
If you want something that easily beats the twins while also being bulky and powerful enough to scare the shit out of every fairy in the tier, AV Metagross is a really solid choice. I don't think it's a better Pokemon overall than Jirachi obviously but for those specific jobs I think it is, and it's unquestionably light years better than Bronzong when it comes to beating fairies and the twins.
Henry:
landot to A - I can understand that defensive and scarf sets have lost their luster recently and it faces competition from chomp but it's still a WAY better exca check and SD tears up balance way too hard for it to drop. Double dance is solid too. keep it at A+
hippowdon to a+ - Definitely raise. It's too good in every playstyle. Checks so much shit, sets rocks, isn't passive, and hard stops mega man which is impressive.
volcarona b+ - I wouldn't mind it wherever it goes, it needs a lot of team support depending on the moves it picks, and even then it will have hard counters like talonflame (i think coba+hp rock is ass) and av azu and chansey and shit. Its ok either in B+ or A- i'd say.
mew to a - haven't used mew much but the tank set doesn't deserve to rise, can u provide some reasoning for this one? Henry
medicham to a-/a - as powerful as it is it's still hard walled by mega sab, and needs some team support getting in safely and shit. It should stay in B+
tangrowth to b - Yup. AV checks too much for it to not raise. It's got a decent movepool too, like rock slide to lure talons
tentacruel to b- was never a fan of this thing, dont mind it dropping
cresselia to low c/c- - I dont wanna drop it TOO far down just because despite its typing its still mad bulky.
rotom-h to c/c+ - Aside from the reasons already stated, I find myself using it mostly because its pretty much the only thing that can check char-y, talon, and scizor all in one. I find that really cool.
[8/9/15, 12:47:34 AM] Henry: : D
[8/9/15, 12:47:41 AM] Henry: DONT MOVE BRELOOM DOWN LOL
agreed
TDK:
Manaphy A+ -> S- Was never much of a fan of this thing. Even balance can pack lots of checks, and its lack of immediate power is a huge turn-off for me. Well I've already written some essays on why i dislike this thing so w/e
Mega Latias A -> B+- I dont get this. Explain pls TDK
Mega Slowbro A- -> A- This thing is gross wouldn't mind a raise.
Medicham B+ -> A- covered this
Scolipede B+ -> B- it defintely loses some viability from bp ban, drop
Mega Gallade B+ -> B - iffy - It's not THAT bad lol it's still got some variety and its not totally easy to wall.
Feraligatr B -> B+- It's pretty good, wouldnt mind a raise
Gastrodon B- -> B - iffy- was pretty fond of this thing from the start, raise
Tangrowth B- -> B- covered this
Infernape B- -> C+ - iffy- Nah, Mixed sets with hp ice, SD, and bulky wisp gives it lots of versatility, it's not that bad.
Heracross C+ - C- I kind of wanted this thing to raise actually, based on the scarf moxie set... well SD guts is damn tough to wall already but i've been using scarf moxie to a good amount of success surprisingly enough. I want it to stay C+ atleast.
Kyurem C -> C+- It differentiates itself from kyu-b by its dragon STAB, that's enough for a raise.
Rotom-H C- -> C+- covered this
Regular Metagross -> C- Lol av gross is awesome it should go up further imo.
Bronzong is specifically for stall so passiveness isn't really a huge deal for it. It's main competition therefore comes from Jirachi, who has a higher speed tier, more bulk, a more diverse movepool, and access to both passive and reliable recovery. C- is fair because of what you mentioned, but I wouldn't say that it completely overshadows Jirachi offensively.
Any reason Hydreigon is still B+ rank? Looking at the rankings, a large number of mons in the upper rankings are able to give it quite a bit of trouble (things like Azumarill, Keldeo, Clefable, Weavile, Mega Altaria, etc.). With Landorus-I banned, Weavile's increased usage, and Hoopa-U entrance to OU, the usage and viability of several psychic-types is decreasing, which also affects Hydreigon in a negative way. Hoopa-U also gives Hydreigon some competition as a powerful wallbreaking Dark-type since its superior power allows it to threaten slower teams far more than Hydreigon.
It's true Mega Meta exists and all and Metagross itself does have issues, but its Assault Vest set is pretty neat right now. With AV in tow, and with Metagross's bulk, power, and typing, it's capable of checking a lot of shit in the tier, while having the power and movepool to utilize such defensive capability. Namely, it has a lot of cool stuff like Pursuit, which allows it to trap the Latis, which it can comfortably come in on as it sponges Draco Meteor and Psyshock quite well. At the same time, it takes on the multitude of Fairy-types that run over today's meta such as Clefable, Mega Altaria, Mega Diancie, and Mega Gardevoir (be careful about Will-O-Wisp though!), and retaliate with a strong Meteor Mash or with Bullet Punch to revenge kill. It also checks a good deal of other shit too, like Mega Venusaur, Black Kyurem, Serperior, and Alakazam to name a few off the top of my head. It can do all of this while keeping a good offensive presence with strong moves like Meteor Mash and Zen Headbutt, as well as some utility moves like Pursuit and Bullet Punch which make it pretty useful. With Assault Vest and having the free space to invest in bulk, it does all of this better than Mega Metagross does. Weavile being prominent sucks but it can run Bullet Punch to hit Weavile pretty hard.
I'm not saying it's super amazing or anything, and admittedly Metagross has some of the same issues that plague Mega Metagross (and what has plagued it since 5th Gen) such as getting walled by Slowbro and the like, having no recovery, and being weak to stuff like Knock off and its weaknesses being issues for it. But it's a good tank that checks a number of prominent threats in the tier while being strong offensively and having some decent utility so because of all that I think it's worthy of C Rank at the very least.
Normal Kyurem could raise, but just wanted to point out that its merit lies in a Sub+Roost set. With Pressure along with Substitute and Roost, this thing becomes a royal pain in the ass to take down once it gets going as it can drain out PP of some important moves safely and provide a strong offensive presence with Dragon Pulse or Ice Beam or something like that.
: I personally don't think Lando-T should drop. It's defensive set is kinda total garbage now, but its offensive sets are still insane, and a lot of teams really slack when it comes to having an answer for +2 Lando because this thing just rips through so many defensive cores. Rock Polish makes it pretty hard to revenge kill against offense because you can't stop it with para and you pretty much need priority from Weavile / Mamo / Azu or Magnet Rise Klefki if it isn't weakened because almost nothing it taking an Earth Plate boosted EQ on offense. It's still a really solid mon and should stay A+
: This thing is quite underrated, it breaks a bunch of common defensive cores and can break offense easily at +1 too, especially if its Lum Berry to shrug off Twaves from Klefki or Thundurus and Passho stops Keldeo and Azumarill from revenging it. It's still a really big threat though Altaria, Heatran, and Latis being in the tier is annoying for it as it forces it to choose between HP Ice / HP Ground / Bug Buzz. Not much else to say about it but people seem to really doubt how threatening Volc is. It should stay in A-
: One of the best balance breakers in the tier, along with being able to pressure offense with the dual priority set. Sableyes a complete killer for it, but anti-sab support really isn't hard to fit on teams. Not much to say, but it should rise to A- least.
: Tangrowth is great on balance teams, AV lets it blanket check a bunch of mons including Electric and Pokemon that rely on weak hidden powers as coverage. Physical defensive sets let it wall mons such as MegaGross to hell and back which is really impressive. Its so bulky, has a great offensive movepool alongside good offensive stats, and Regenerator which gives it really solid longevity. It deserves B+
: I hate this thing. It has all these amazing positives which make it look really good on paper, but in practice, this thing blows. The only thing it's worth using for it the role compression of Tox Spikes + Rapid Spin and being able to pressure Clefable. It only fits a specific niche and is pretty ass as a spinner anyway. I'm all for Tentacruel dropping.
I'm gonna disagree with the LandoT drop. Its still a good mon. The defensive sets are outdated but still have some uses over other grounds like a spikes/ground immunity and a fighting resist.
But it's offensive sets are where it really shines. SD sets completely destroy balance and sets up on a ton of stuff.
Lately I've been using SD with yache berry as a way to beat random ice punch/hp ice user like lop, metagross, mman and thundurus. Its a nice way to check a lot of things and break balance.
The SD sets have some freedom with the fourth move like sr, smack down, explosion, rock polish.
And it still has the scarf set, which is arguably the best scarfer.
