We talked about this maybe 40-50 pages back and the mods came to the consensus that no Swift-Swimmer (basically the only Niche swamp has) should be on the same level as Politoad, which is A-. I don't think there is any use discussing it. You can try to find those arguments a while back, but basically using rain is very team limiting, and although it is good, it fits A- very nicely and stuff like that. If anyone remembers what I am talking about then back me up here.
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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Mandibuzz doesn't ever want to be Tricked a Choice Scarf, and Hoopa-U also gets access to Thunderbolt, which is an easy 2HKO, so I wouldn't say Mandibuzz beats Hoopa-U.
I also support a Cresselia drop, and I mean a HARD drop, since Hoopa-U threatens it so well, and the rise in Weavile does it no favors. Will likely add more later, since phones stink to type on. T_T
*Edit
So there are three reasons why I feel that Cresselia should drop. Fair warning, this is gonna be a long one, so bear with me here.
First, Cresselia's overly passive stats. Cresselia is a wall at heart, and her lack of offensive stats show this fact, as even though she has great moves in Psyshock, Ice Beam, Moonblast, and Calm Mind that would imply a respectable offensive presence, but base 75 Special Attack says otherwise, (Ice Beam fails to OHKO Garchomp without Stealth Rocks, which only nets a 12.5% chance to OHKO), and fails to OHKO Weavile with a +1 Moonblast 100% of the time. So while Cresselia's massive bulk might look like it gives it plenty of opportunities to set up, offensive Cresselia doesn't pose as much of a threat, with or without a boost, meaning it can be incredibly easy to chip away at Cresselia while it only does moderate damage to frail Pokemon at best unless it has the right coverage move. It's very true that Thunder Wave is technically a means of offense in the sense that sweepers will be crippled, but that means it loses out on Toxic to wear down opposing walls, so you can't have it both ways unless you want a challenged Cresselia.
Second, Hoopa-U is a titanic mountain that Cresselia has little hope of conquering. While Hoopa-U isn't overly common, Hoopa-U is a Pokemon that has two effective ways of threatening it in Hyperspace Fury and Trick. Hyperspace Fury is a very clean 2HKO with a Life Orb even against max investment Cresselia, and unlike Knock Off, maintains its high power at all times, while Trick very easily cripples any Cresselia set by giving it a Choice Scarf and removing its item. While Hoopa-U wrecks stall like Landorus did, Cresselia just loses by type matchup. On top of Hoopa-U, other Dark-types like Weavile, Tyranitar, and Bisharp leave it limited opportunities to safely switch in since they all pack Pursuit to possibly trap it along with a naturally powerful Dark STAB to threaten it with. While I'm at it, Cresselia just doesn't fare well against a lot of things in general, like Mega Scizor, Heatran, Ferrothorn, Mega Charizard Y, Taunt Talonflame, and Excadrill.
Speaking of Landorus, my third point is that he's banned now. Nuff said... Okay, I'll actually explain this one. Cresselia was one of the very few safe switches into Landorus, which was able to destroy stall teams fairly easily, which was usually the reason why Cresselia ever got any usage in the first place aside from being on Trick Room teams. Once Landorus was banned, one of Cresselia's biggest niches was lost, and I feel that this reason on its own should cause Cresselia to drop.
I'm aware that Cresselia is still a great answer to common Pokemon like Keldeo, non-Calm Mind Latios, Mega Metagross, and Mega Lopunny, it's still a very sturdy and reliable user of Dual Screens, it has Lunar Dance to fully heal and safely bring something in once it sets up screens, and is still ridiculously bulky, which is why I'm not suggesting it gets unranked. I'm not even saying to put it in D Rank now that I've put more thought into it, like C- Rank sounds more fitting. I'd even settle for just C, but my point is C+ is a bit too generous a placement in my eyes as the metagame currently is, and I think a drop is called for.
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i think blissey is nice in C, passive recovery in leftovers and not being totally worse after a knock off are some possitive aspects. but i think the main niche that blissey have over chansey is 75 base spa, i know she isn't something like mega alakazam, but she can use flamethrower/shadow ball/ice beam/t-bolt to beat key threats like scizor and ferrothorn/gengar/the 4x ice weak mons/gyarados (if gengar lacks taunt he can be beat by the other coverage moves). i know that lacks heal bell/wish/toxic is quite problematic, but being in a stall team you will probably have a mon that can replace this hole. pls don't tell me that i need to only considerate the mon and not the hole team, because blissey is C rank witch means she needs team support, but i think she doesn't deserves to drop, because she can do her job really well.
Just putting this up for discussion because it is a lower rank pokemon that deserves to rise and nobody discussed it.
I agree with Cress to C for the reasons stated, it's passive as shit and while it is bulky, it does nothing but set up screens or TR, and being weak to moves like U-Turn or Knock Off isn't too great for a bulky mon.
Now for another nom of my own:
Mega Gallade to B/B-
Mega Gallade is not a great mon right now. While it has a great 165 attack and good 110 speed, it faces competition from all the other megas. You might say "But why would I use Mega Medicham over this? It's slower and doesn't have Knock Off!" Well, Mega Gallade needs a Swords Dance boost to really boost up that attack, while Mega Medicham can just use Pure Power boosted attacks to blast everything away unboosted. Also, Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade are in different roles, as Mega Medicham is a wallbreaker who is good at wrecking balance, while Mega Gallade is a faster thing who can threaten offense a bit better. But Mega Gallade is in a crowded speed tier, so he has to rely on speed ties with many pokemon like Latios and Gengar. (Unless he has Shadow Sneak.) He faces competition from the other megas, while they are different than him, they are usually better due to their traits, like Mega Altaria's typing. Mega Gallade is pretty frail, especially on the physical side, so he has trouble setting up. Overall, Mega Gallade can be good, but he faces so much competition from the overall better megas and he needs a boost to be good too, and imo that overshadows the 110 speed and Knock Off. Mega Gallade should drop.
Your forgetting mega gallade can set up on a good number of things and if you have weakened the check to mega-Gallade not much takes a base 165 +2 close combat it shouldn't drop because the only change is hoopa which gallade ohkos and can take a psychic with relative ease (ok not really hoopa is a monster) but mega-Gallade really hasn't lost anything and if you look at a normal hyper-o team not much ohkos and it can do a hefty chunk if not ohko back.
Yeah... Can't really see Altaria dropping A-S is fine as it stands right now, although, here's a quick explanation.
We could look at Altaria now and question, how has the metagame changed from its favour? Weavile rose, but Altaria was still S even with Weavile, it's a hindrance but can't switch in and I don't think it can OHKO Altaria regardless. And then we can look at Hoopa, a new pokemon which can't 2HKO Altaria and is set up on, so that's in its favour. Mega Charizard-X and Altaria aren't that comparable. If you base Altarias ranking around its DD set then yeah, Mega Charizard-X tends to do that better. But Mega Altaria is ranked S for being very versatile, DD is not the reason it's S so it's not really a fair judgement. All in all I think Altaria got a slight boost in terms of viability and should stay S.
We could look at Altaria now and question, how has the metagame changed from its favour? Weavile rose, but Altaria was still S even with Weavile, it's a hindrance but can't switch in and I don't think it can OHKO Altaria regardless. And then we can look at Hoopa, a new pokemon which can't 2HKO Altaria and is set up on, so that's in its favour. Mega Charizard-X and Altaria aren't that comparable. If you base Altarias ranking around its DD set then yeah, Mega Charizard-X tends to do that better. But Mega Altaria is ranked S for being very versatile, DD is not the reason it's S so it's not really a fair judgement. All in all I think Altaria got a slight boost in terms of viability and should stay S.
I don't know what to tell you if you think M-Swampert is a necessity on Rain teams especially because you seem so assured that you're right in this obvious error. Keep in mind through this that I agree with parts of your argument: M-Swampert becomes nasty fast and pretty powerful when Rain is up and fares really well against some of the metagame's largest threats.
But it's not a necessity on a rain team, and bear in mind that rain teams are often a core of Politoed + 2 or 3 Swimmers with teammates which are generally useful and appreciate the rain like Tornadus-T, Ferrothorn, or Klefki. M-Swampert fits on Rain teams as a bulky-as hell physical Swift Swimmer who can also set rocks, but it isn't as powerful as Kabutops with a Life Orb and it isn't as easy to set up as Kingdra because of the M-Evo turn.
There are quite a few megas that are great in rain: M-Scizor is the most obvious because it can pivot into any Grass attack and pivot out slowly to Politoed/Swimmer/Tornadus-T, keeping them safe in the process. M-Gardevoir appreciates that Fire type attacks are weakened and those Hyper Voices are great in or out of Rain. Healing wish is nice in a rainy context as well. M-Meta bops problem mons for rain teams and appreciates the weakened Fire attacks.
I don't think M-Swampert needs to rise because the meta is largely neutral as regards Rain, although physical Swift Swimmers have much less trouble vs Hoopa-U if you can get them in.
I'm a little sensitive about rain mons so I'm sorry if I came across as slightly abrasive.
Hi, I'd like to nominate:
to move up from C- rank up to either C or C+. Right now its in the same rank as pokemon I personally consider pretty garbage in the metagame, such as Pangoro and Froslass. I definitely think it merits a raise to C, because I think right now its just as viable as other pokemon that reside in C which include Thundurus-t, Mega Blastoise, and Mega Ampharos.
Rotom-h is a cool pokemon right now and has a bunch of distinct niches it has over its Rotom-w couterpart. For one, the electric resist really comes in handy, seeing as how its super easy to pressure Rotom-w by using strong special attackers such as thundurus, raikou, mega manectric... Rotom-h has the ability to tank their hits and retaliate back with a burn or overheat and can heal back the damage from painsplit.
Another cool thing about Rotom-h is its grass resistance, meaning the stuff that normally beat Rotom-h (aka Celebi, Serperior, etc) lose to Rotom-h. Rotom-h is actually a pretty nice Serperior check since it resists leaf storm, resists hp fire, is immune to hp ground, and cant be paralyzed to glare, meanwhile offensive Serperior is KOed by an overheat even with 0 spatk investment. Rotom-h also has the added bonus of pressuring Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn if they're like paralyzed and cant be burned by will o wisp or something.
Rotom-h's fire typing is extremely valuable as of right now given the current soaring popularity of Spdef Talonflame, which can actually outstall Rotom-w if it burns it on the switch, because then it can roost stall so volt switch wont do crap, and its not like hydro pump is doing much damage after roost + leftovers, and you have to take into account it only has 8 PP plus it can miss. With Rotom-h, you dont have to worry about being outstalled by burn damage, because Rotom-h is immune to burn. Then you can spam discharge on it and paralyze it and heal damage back with pain split.
Did I mention it also completely cockblocks both physical and special offensive altaria? Rotom-h resists pixilate return, is immune to eq, and can just burn it while DD alt struggles to do much. For special mixed Altaria, Rotom-h also walls this completely since its immune to earthquake, resists fire blast and hyper voice, and can also burn it or discharge it for the paralysis chance. Its a way better counter to Altaria then lets say, Heatran cuz it dies to earthquake, or even talonflame because altaria can earthquake it if it roosts.
So yeah, move Rotom-h up to C rank at least please, but i'd prefer C+ because i personally think it fits way better with the pokemon in there currently n_n
Rotom-h is a cool pokemon right now and has a bunch of distinct niches it has over its Rotom-w couterpart. For one, the electric resist really comes in handy, seeing as how its super easy to pressure Rotom-w by using strong special attackers such as thundurus, raikou, mega manectric... Rotom-h has the ability to tank their hits and retaliate back with a burn or overheat and can heal back the damage from painsplit.
Another cool thing about Rotom-h is its grass resistance, meaning the stuff that normally beat Rotom-h (aka Celebi, Serperior, etc) lose to Rotom-h. Rotom-h is actually a pretty nice Serperior check since it resists leaf storm, resists hp fire, is immune to hp ground, and cant be paralyzed to glare, meanwhile offensive Serperior is KOed by an overheat even with 0 spatk investment. Rotom-h also has the added bonus of pressuring Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn if they're like paralyzed and cant be burned by will o wisp or something.
Rotom-h's fire typing is extremely valuable as of right now given the current soaring popularity of Spdef Talonflame, which can actually outstall Rotom-w if it burns it on the switch, because then it can roost stall so volt switch wont do crap, and its not like hydro pump is doing much damage after roost + leftovers, and you have to take into account it only has 8 PP plus it can miss. With Rotom-h, you dont have to worry about being outstalled by burn damage, because Rotom-h is immune to burn. Then you can spam discharge on it and paralyze it and heal damage back with pain split.
Did I mention it also completely cockblocks both physical and special offensive altaria? Rotom-h resists pixilate return, is immune to eq, and can just burn it while DD alt struggles to do much. For special mixed Altaria, Rotom-h also walls this completely since its immune to earthquake, resists fire blast and hyper voice, and can also burn it or discharge it for the paralysis chance. Its a way better counter to Altaria then lets say, Heatran cuz it dies to earthquake, or even talonflame because altaria can earthquake it if it roosts.
So yeah, move Rotom-h up to C rank at least please, but i'd prefer C+ because i personally think it fits way better with the pokemon in there currently n_n
I think some of my first posts in this thread were arguing for Rotom-H not to drop from C rank. Granted it kinda sucks that its weak to rocks for a defensive pokemon but it really does have an excellent typing and has a bunch of niches over Rotom-W. Walling Altaria is pretty huge with the only problematic variants being Refresh/Heal Bell. It actually has more resistances than Rotom-W and fire is an amazing attacking type even if its dual STABs are walled a little more easily. Pretty nice to actually check Thundurus / Manectric too.
Did
you take a look at the arguments? First of all, swamp is not the only mega that you can use under rain (read: M-Manectric, M-Scizor) and definitely not the most potent rain sweeper (Kabutops) and as such is not a necessity on rain teams. You keep saying how it can deal with it's checks under rain but even that necessitates having politoad on your team. And don't give me that crap about how Swamp can set his own rain. Even if he manages too, he's already weakened a lot from that turn and only has a few turns left which you opponent can stall out with a bulky Pokemon. Basically nothing in the meta has changed enough to make Swamp A tier. Also, he would be the only non-OU pokemon in A. Have the smogonites just been missing some nearly untapped gold mine in UU or is swamp solid B+ rank material? This has already been argued about before, and I doubt the team is going to move up swamp solely based on his rain set. And, as there are no other viable sets that would make it past C rank (Bulky Stealth Rocker/PuP Abuser), it won't move up. It's only on the same level as the other A- mons IF it's on the rain. You can't use that as your argument.
Hi, I'd like to nominate:
to move up from C- rank up to either C or C+. Right now its in the same rank as pokemon I personally consider pretty garbage in the metagame, such as Pangoro and Froslass. I definitely think it merits a raise to C, because I think right now its just as viable as other pokemon that reside in C which include Thundurus-t, Mega Blastoise, and Mega Ampharos.
Rotom-h is a cool pokemon right now and has a bunch of distinct niches it has over its Rotom-w couterpart. For one, the electric resist really comes in handy, seeing as how its super easy to pressure Rotom-w by using strong special attackers such as thundurus, raikou, mega manectric... Rotom-h has the ability to tank their hits and retaliate back with a burn or overheat and can heal back the damage from painsplit.
Another cool thing about Rotom-h is its grass resistance, meaning the stuff that normally beat Rotom-h (aka Celebi, Serperior, etc) lose to Rotom-h. Rotom-h is actually a pretty nice Serperior check since it resists leaf storm, resists hp fire, is immune to hp ground, and cant be paralyzed to glare, meanwhile offensive Serperior is KOed by an overheat even with 0 spatk investment. Rotom-h also has the added bonus of pressuring Mega Scizor and Ferrothorn if they're like paralyzed and cant be burned by will o wisp or something.
Rotom-h's fire typing is extremely valuable as of right now given the current soaring popularity of Spdef Talonflame, which can actually outstall Rotom-w if it burns it on the switch, because then it can roost stall so volt switch wont do crap, and its not like hydro pump is doing much damage after roost + leftovers, and you have to take into account it only has 8 PP plus it can miss. With Rotom-h, you dont have to worry about being outstalled by burn damage, because Rotom-h is immune to burn. Then you can spam discharge on it and paralyze it and heal damage back with pain split.
Did I mention it also completely cockblocks both physical and special offensive altaria? Rotom-h resists pixilate return, is immune to eq, and can just burn it while DD alt struggles to do much. For special mixed Altaria, Rotom-h also walls this completely since its immune to earthquake, resists fire blast and hyper voice, and can also burn it or discharge it for the paralysis chance. Its a way better counter to Altaria then lets say, Heatran cuz it dies to earthquake, or even talonflame because altaria can earthquake it if it roosts.
So yeah, move Rotom-h up to C rank at least please, but i'd prefer C+ because i personally think it fits way better with the pokemon in there currently n_n
Honestly this thing is great with the proper support, mold breaker excadrill destroys it keldeo and manaphy are extremely good right now and rocks are on every team but overall it still does great on teams with reliable defoger/spinner but the lack of recovery and the rocks weakness make it so it can't move up to C+ or above even though it walls a good portion of the meta game and not to mention that it's set up fodder for mega zard-x.
I'm pretty sure that many of those mons can't switch in... also Rotom-H's most popular TrickScarf Set just destroys Exca, Keldeo and Manaphy... as a defensive mon it works wonders as it pretty much can wall a good portion of the meta, it works great in FWG cores where it appreciates the help from the other parts of the core (Starmie, Venusaur/Ferrothorn or something). Popular walls in the A tier can't wall everything, Gliscor hates facing Keldeo, Manaphy, Weavile etc. Skarmory hates Magnezone, Raikou and similar Electrics. Rotom-H fulfills its role on teams very well and I think it deserves the rise, Rotom-H to C+
Sorry for the weird double posting thing.
Wobbuffet C+ --> B (or drop goth, I'll just be comparing them)
I was fooling around with this in No Status, OMOTM, and that made me decide that I ought to test it in OU again. SO I made a team with it, and Wobb is insanity. Wobb only really has one set, and I'll be comparing it to Goth's scarf set, the higher rated on on the rankings.
Goth traps stuff like Clef, but Wobb can too. Wobb can encore it, then mirror coat twice for the ko or switch out and allow free setup. Goth can get to plus 6 but what are you doing then? Hoopa and scizor wall your psyshock and easily ko back. Goth is more of a win con, but Wobb is a better trapper tbh. The better bulk is nice, and most mons can be easily identified as physical or special. Encore is great with a setup mon, and Wobb + Pinsir has been really working out for me. I don't really know how to quantify this unfortunately but I hope you guys realize that stall is dying out and goth is too weak vs offense. I don't know what you guys think though.
I was fooling around with this in No Status, OMOTM, and that made me decide that I ought to test it in OU again. SO I made a team with it, and Wobb is insanity. Wobb only really has one set, and I'll be comparing it to Goth's scarf set, the higher rated on on the rankings.
Goth traps stuff like Clef, but Wobb can too. Wobb can encore it, then mirror coat twice for the ko or switch out and allow free setup. Goth can get to plus 6 but what are you doing then? Hoopa and scizor wall your psyshock and easily ko back. Goth is more of a win con, but Wobb is a better trapper tbh. The better bulk is nice, and most mons can be easily identified as physical or special. Encore is great with a setup mon, and Wobb + Pinsir has been really working out for me. I don't really know how to quantify this unfortunately but I hope you guys realize that stall is dying out and goth is too weak vs offense. I don't know what you guys think though.
Kinda indifferent to this nom as I'm not the most experienced with Wobbufet (though I am with Gothitelle), but you gotta realize that Gothitelle isn't as one-dimensional as Wobbufet is. Choice Scarf isn't the only viable option on it when you've got Choice Specs which allows Gothitelle to immediately blow back the trapped Pokemon, unlike Wobbufet which relies on heavy prediction with Mirror Coat + Counter + Encore. It's not even much of a win-con as much as Choice Specs Keldeo is a win-con when Gothitelle's role can be compressed into "Support". Yeah it's true that Wobbufet can Encore Clefable but Gothitelle can Trick its Choice Scarf or Choice Specs onto Clefable as well, thus crippling it, pretty much the same way that Wobbufet can do with Encore. You've got also the coverage moves and the utility in using Choice Scarf to outspeed and cripple momentum-gainers that use U-turn or Volt Switch to get out of Gothitelle's grasp, such as Raikou, or dish out a hit before taking one due to Choice Scarf / Gothitelle's natural Speed tier, as opposed to Wobbufet having to tank a hit first, then have the subsequent move a coinflip scenario when you take into account mixed attackers / status users. Stall isn't dying out when semi-stall and hazard-stacking balance is perfectly viable when combined with the likes of Mega Altaria, Mega Sableye, Klefki, Talonflame, and Tornadus-T, all top-notch Pokemon in this metagame.
Mega Swampert shouldn't really rise when you look at the support it requires and the whole being a Mega Evolution scenario. Definitely not a necessity on rain teams yeah when you've got Mega Scizor and Mega Altaria and the like that fit well on it. Swampert is on par with Kingdra and Kabutops in terms of sweeping when you consider the unique utility that all of them provide - Kingdra with a mixed set and Dragon coverage, and Kabutops with Swords Dance or Rapid Spin alongside checking Talonflame.
I nommed Wobbuffet up to B- before and the VR team wanted high level replays before it would rise, because they were not convinced it deserved a rise. However, it is certainly a solid Pokemon, and while it is one-dimensional, it does the one thing it can do quite well.
EDIT: Could I also get a reason why Zapdos is B? I asked AM before not long ago and he did not even give me an answer.
EDIT: Could I also get a reason why Zapdos is B? I asked AM before not long ago and he did not even give me an answer.
I think the main reason Zapdos rose to B was because it is one of the better answers to Tornadus-T and SpDef Talon. Unlike Rotom-Wash it has reliable recovery. Flying / Electric is a pretty decent defensive typing which makes it a decent check to birdspam, some water types and stuff like Mega Scizor thanks to sharing the same coverage as Mega Manectric. Interestingly enough it is the only pokemon that can stall Stealth Rockers out as a Defogger thanks to Pressure, which otherwise can only be done by Rapid Spinners. Pressure has interesting utility like allowing it to stall things out of Stone Edge as well. Ultimately not a great pokemon but I think it should be somewhere in the B ranks because of its utility. It's also a Defogger that stands a reasonable chance against Bisharp. I could see an argument for B- but I don't have a strong opinion about it.
I'd also like to make a comparison to another poke in C+ staraptor, both usually get a kill a game but both die in the process if staraptor is in C+ and it can spam banded BB until it dies wobbbuffet should stay on level with staraptor because while they play diffrent roles the impact they have is the same one kill and they die to revenge killer/recoil
This post implies you have not used Wobbuffet, or even know how to use it. Wobbuffet faces a lot less competition for its role than Staraptor does. Wobbuffet gets worn down easily, but by the time it gets KOd, if you played it correctly, it will already have done its job by the time it gets KOd. The thing is, Wobbuffet's ability to trap and KO most offensive Pokemon is not something that other Pokemon can boast of. Meanwhile, while Staraptor hits hard, there are several other options when it comes to a hard-hitting wallbreaker, meaning most of the time Staraptor will have to compete with others for a team slot.
As i said they play majorly different roles but have the same impact one kill one death, staraptor gets easily revenge killed and wobbuffet gets worn down/revenge killed easily. Also in terms of dropping goth i agree because even when it's setup it still gets very easily killed by scizor, bisharp, or prettty much anything that runs the most common move knock off it really isn't that bulky on the physical side.
You are exaggerating how easy it is to revenge kill Wobbuffet, because it is quite difficult to do without losing multiple members on your team. It isn't as easy as "spam Knock Off" because outside of STAB Knock Offs (and not even Bisharp's Knock Off can OHKO), most Knock Off users will lose to Wobbuffet (and even STAB Knock Off users can lose to Wobbuffet). Sure, you dealt a lot of damage to Wobbuffet, but you wound up losing another member of your team. You are also forgetting that most Wobbuffet run Custap Berry + Destiny Bond, which gives Wobbuffet at another free kill when its HP gets too low (Sitrus Berry + Safeguard is good but Custap + Destiny Bond is probably more common).
Except wobb chooses what it wants to kill with its ability even if we go with your comparison. And I will try to get replays of Wobb in action. Also Custap DBond is great like alfalfa said
Yes but what has helped wobbufet recently hoppa? Wobbufet has nothing going for it with the addition of hoopa and the increase in bisharp/ttar for pursuit trapping sure it doesn't kill but many pokemon can play around wobbufet and wobbufet can be entirely useless against some mons on stall such as chancey seeing as how they click toxic and win I personally hate wobbufet not because it's really good but it's annoying but i do see viability with it if used right but in my opinion give the spot to another pokemon because it can't wall a team no recovery and most importantly taunt stops wob in it's tracks making it useless.
One problem. Wobbuffet has one role, and one role only, it is solely supportive. When making a team, you look at it and analyze what you are weak to. When doing so, you have to find a way of removing whatever deals with your team. Wobbuffet does exactly that. Let's say you build a team, and it's severely weak to Keldeo, guess what, throw Wobb on your team, and you have a sure fire way of getting rid of Keldeo. After you have gotten rid of Keldeo, your team should have a decently good time dealing with the rest of the opposing team, so, nine times out of ten, you can part with it and not be too unhappy with the result. You just removed a Pokemon that could have clean swept you. Now, if Wobb is still at a respectable amount of HP, you can still use it. But being Revenge killed isn't a problem when you've already done your job. People tend to look at trappers in an offensive way, but they are strictly support Pokemon we need to try and remember that.
Long story short, Wobbuffet can guarantee problem Pokemon are no longer a problem. Whether it gets RK'd is almost irrelevant when it gives the rest of your team a clear path to sweepsville.
i ran out of names
Please consider the use of punctuation. First of all, Wobbuffet isn't deadweight against stall because it can trap and encore some pokemon and make them set up fodder for a setup sweeper. Take for example a Skarmory that's locked into Spikes or Defog against Wobbuffet, Wobbuffet can switch out to their Offensive Mega Scizor. In a normal situation, Offensive Mega Scizor can be taken care of by Skarmory, so if the offensive Mega Scizor switches in against a Chansey for example, it will be stopped by Skarmory. However, now that Skarmory is locked into Spikes / Defog / Whatever, Mega Scizor can SD twice before the encore is over and kill Skarmory with a +4 Superpower (doesn't kill at 100% but does at 90%) Other Encore users can't do it because Skarmory can switch out against them the turn they get encored.
To other posters please don't compare this to Gothitelle because Countercoat+Encore works way different than Trick+Offensive Moves.
Please consider the use of punctuation. First of all, Wobbuffet isn't deadweight against stall because it can trap and encore some pokemon and make them set up fodder for a setup sweeper. Take for example a Skarmory that's locked into Spikes or Defog against Wobbuffet, Wobbuffet can switch out to their Offensive Mega Scizor. In a normal situation, Offensive Mega Scizor can be taken care of by Skarmory, so if the offensive Mega Scizor switches in against a Chansey for example, it will be stopped by Skarmory. However, now that Skarmory is locked into Spikes / Defog / Whatever, Mega Scizor can SD twice before the encore is over and kill Skarmory with a +4 Superpower (doesn't kill at 100% but does at 90%) Other Encore users can't do it because Skarmory can switch out against them the turn they get encored.
It doesn't have to wall a team, it has to take some hits from a few pokemon and hit them back often resulting in a OHKO. No recovery sucks yeah but if it had recovery it would be sitting in the A ranks. Taunt doesn't stop Wobbuffet because Counter and Mirror Coat are both unaffected by it.
To other posters please don't compare this to Gothitelle because Countercoat+Encore works way different than Trick+Offensive Moves.
My problem with wob is lets take your example into play i need a keleo counter well why not get a mega-venosaur or a azumarill that after useful after said pokemon is eliminated for me there's no reason to run wobufet because imo wob can be replaced by a good portion of pokemon that do it's job of countering just as good not to mention it can give two of the biggest treats in the meta a free double being hoopa and taunt gengar which not much can switch safely into either.
Note: I know taunt gengar isn't meta defining but on the current extremely offensive meta not much appreciates switching into gengar.
Except that if you switch Mega Venusaur in against a Keldeo's Specs Secret Sword, you are forced to use Synthesis if rocks are on the field and the Keldeo user can just switch to a Tornadus-T while if it is up against a Wobbuffet, it can't switch and it if forced to die after 2 Mirror Coats. Not that Wobbuffet is even a good Keldeo switchin because Hydro is a 2hko but at least it completely eliminates Keldeo after switching in / coming in on a revenge kill, which Mega Venusaur can't.
Wobbuffet isn't used as a Keldeo check or a Lopunny counter, it is used as a trapper for those pokemon. Similar to a situation between Scizor and Magnezone, where Magnezone isn't used as a Scizor check, but as a Scizor trapper.
Wobbuffet isn't used as a Keldeo check or a Lopunny counter, it is used as a trapper for those pokemon. Similar to a situation between Scizor and Magnezone, where Magnezone isn't used as a Scizor check, but as a Scizor trapper.
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