Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

cityscapes

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First VR post \o/

Mega Charizard X to S: Disagree. I was wondering how recent meta trends affected Mega Charizard X, so I took a look at the usage stats, and the first thing I saw was a massive increase (17.907%->27.121%) in Excadrill usage from July to August. This is obviously a very bad thing for Charizard, because Sand Rush Excadrill can outspeed and KO a +1 Mega Charizard X. Landorus-T is as common as ever, also (34.363%), meaning that Mega Charizard X will need so much team support if it wants to pull off a sweep. MCY builds are also really linear nowadays, meaning that it's not hard to guess MCX at team preview (making it easy to guess which Pokémon are needed to preserve).

Another thing that I'd like to address is the "Will-O-Wisp beats all its checks and counters" argument. No, Landorus-T will not appreciate getting burned. However, the instant Mega Charizard X throws out a Will-O-Wisp, it instantly becomes so much less threatening because it exerts barely any pressure outside of burning stuff lol. The burned Pokémon can actually switch back in sometimes and grab momentum.

One more factor I think has hurt Mega Charizard X's viability is the shift in electrics; specifically, the rise of Static Zapdos and Thunder Wave Thundurus. Mega Charizard X hates paralysis, and with Pokémon like Mega Manectric and Raikou all but gone, it struggles to find opportunities to set up.

On to the current discussion slate.

Landorus-T to S: Agree. This thing does literally everything these days. It can set SR, VoltTurn, revenge kill, and even sweep (Double Dance is really underwhelming from what I've seen but it's so uncommon I don't have much of an opinion on it). A lot of Clefable's sets, like CM, are really struggling atm because of a decline in stuff it can beat such as the aforementioned Mega Manectric. In contrast, Pokémon like Mega Charizard X are still good, meaning that Landorus-T still has stuff to check. Remember how I said that Excadrill usage went way up? Over half of last month's Excadrills are Choice Scarf sets, and Landorus-T is basically the best counter to a Scarf set there is. The Flying-type just chips away at teams so well between Rocky Helmet damage and Earthquakes that are strong even without investment, which is why I think it should rise.

Azumarill to A-: Agree. Things aren't looking good for the bunny. Its bulk is OK but pretty underwhelming (it really can't switch into much, it hates Scald, and it just gets worn down really fast) and I feel that the Belly Drum set just isn't very good: Finding a setup opportunity against offense is really hard, and stall usually has Quagsire anyway. On top of that, there's just so much that can live through a +6 Aqua Jet (Rotom-W, Skarmory, and Zapdos come to mind) and easily KO it due to its decreased HP. One might argue that Azumarill invests in HP, allowing it to possibly live through a hit, but Belly Drum is forced to run Speed nowadays to outpace bulky grasses like Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and so on. However, I've tried the CB set recently and it worked pretty well, so it might have some hidden potential.

I haven't used Mega Medicham / Mega Lopunny / Kyurem but the latter seems cool, will definitely give it a shot.
 
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How is burning stuff not applying any pressure? It negates leftovers and cripples physical attackers. Without clerics the damage whittles Pokemon away while Charizard can roost off and outsustain while threatening some STAB damage. You having to switch in a burnt Pokemon to absorb a Will-O-Wisp means taking more residual damage and passing them the tempo.

The Electric threats you mentioned also get swiftly dealt with unless the 30% paralysis chance kicks in. Not being able to setup is an OK trade-off for simply knocking either threat out.

Hello Smogon.
 
Fact is ZardX without DD (or SD depending on the team) is a lot less threatening, so while WoW ZardX might still put out some offensive pressure, you can get away with giving it a free turn or two at times.

Zapdos and especially Thundurus shouldn't be switching in on ZardX but Thundy checks it by prio T-Waving it and Static Zapdos is more of a last ditch effort to stop sweep, neither are supposed to be counters.

I think ZardX should stay in A, there's a lot of counters/checks and with the amount of yellow magic users in the meta atm it's hardly garanteed to sweep even if it gets up a DD.
 
Don't drop Azu, while yeah, it's Choice Band set is nowhere near as threatening as it was half a year ago, and it's AV set essentially unviable at this point, it's Belly Drum set is still phenomenal. It puts so much pressure on teams and is probably a better wallbreaker than CB. With most teams' physically defensive mons being Lando-T/Tangrowth, Azu can easily break through defensive cores and you're almost guaranteed to lose 2 mons once it's set up.
 

Gary

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Guys Lando-T and Azumarill have already been placed in S and A- respectively so I don't know why we keep discussing them.....

And yeah I agree, saying Wisp Zard-X can't apply pressure is horseshit because the sheer fact it can burn most of its common checks and counters is applying a TON of pressure, especially if you pair it with something that also shares similar checks/counters.
 
I think the current metatrend is to hate Char X, overexaggerate its problems and diminish its strong points af, like I am surprised that when Clefable cripples something with Thunder Wave a lot of people go "That is broke as fuck", but if CharX burns one of its checks "Nothing special, lol",not that the set of WispZard is that relevant though.

Everyone already knows its crippling problem to x4 SR, but people talk about how easy is to wear it down like if he was the only mon affected by Sandstorm, Rocky Helmet, Iron Barbs,etc; when it applies to almost every physical mon in the tier.

Aside from the obvious powerhouse potential that has been said relentlessly, is also good to point that its typing has incredible good things, which a lot of people like to neglect juat because of biased hate or whatever, first it doesn't give crap about burns, secondly it is neutral or resists the most common priority moves in the meta(Aqua Jet, Brave Bird, Bullet Punch), which means that once set up very few things can really threaten it directly, also altough not a complete answer CharX can run effectively Roost, which helps a lot to its survivability, aside from M-Scizor the other relevant megas doesnt have an option to recover health consistently, so I dont understant why people think that CharX is much easier to wear down than a lot of the megas when taking into consideration the amount of switches this thing performs there is a lot of times when you can get a Roost up without much pressure.

Finally I think CharX trades splashability for a lot of offensive prowess and a much bigger reward, its most consistent check is Lando-T who is forced to be at full health a lot of times to try to check it, even then it cannot always check it; Scarf Latios can RK, but it risks a lot by trying to come in since it dies to a Dragon Claw on switch, it also has a good matchup against M-Scizor.

Of course this thing is not S, but I think A+ is a nice spot for him.
 
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Martin

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Am I imagining things or do I see Cobalion in C-? This thing is better than half of C+ let alone C- lol. As such:

Cobalion to C+
Pokémon that are able to completely counter Bisharp are hard to come by as-is, and with Weavile being as good as it is it really feels out of place to have the best physical-Dark counter all the way down in C-. The utility that this 'mon provides is really good, and it is also very versatile with regards to what it does (with pivot, SubCM, SubToxic, SubSD and probably more being good sets). Honestly just it being able to use Bisharp for complete setup/momentum fodder is a pretty big perk on its own considering how much struggles to just come in on it more than 1-2 times--let alone use it as complete fodder. All in all it's just really nice and appreciates a lot of trends like the popularity of Dark-types on the whole.
 
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MrAldo

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Speaking of C+ ranks, I think Kyurem is far better than every single of them right now and it could rise to B- tbh. The specs set have been crazy effective lately, having a much bigger reward than Kyurem-B and just putting inmense pressure on teams by spamming Ice Beam alone and destroy many of the commonly used Ice Checks with coverage alone and taking advantage of many cores like rotom-wash + defensive ground + grass by itself is pretty massive tbh. I think it could rise to B- imo.
 
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WECAMEASROMANS

Banned deucer.

I just wanted to voice my opinion that I heavily disagree with dropping Mega Venusaur from B+ rank to B rank. Right now the general consensus is that Mega Venusaur is horrendous in this metagame due to other bulky grasses such as Amoongus and Tangrowth having Regenerator so they can stick around longer and the omnipresent sand in the metagame that can cut down Mega Venu's recovery in half crippling its health down, along with the lack of leftovers. Now I do admit that these are its flaws, and the other bulky grass types I've mentioned do give it quite a bit of competition, but I still can't ever justify dropping Mega Venusaur all the way down to B. These issues regarding Mega Venusaur have been there since forever. What exactly changed that made Mega Venusaur that much worse now? Sand has always been common in OU, and Tangrowth and Amoongus both have been OU for quite some time now so its not exactly like the new metagame trends hurt it significantly.

Mega Venusaur has a bunch of distinct niches that set it apart from the other bulky grass types in the tier that such a drop is unwarranted. First off, Amoonguss and Tangrowth are both used as defensive pivots that can switch into a bunch of weak or resisted attacks and stay relatively healthy throughout the course of the match due to their splendid ability. Mega Venusaur, on the other hand, is played much more differently and serves as more of a tank role. You usually never want to directly switch Mega Venusaur into oncoming attacks unless its a guaranteed 100% safe switch, you aim to get it in properly given a free switch. Once it's in, its almost always doing something productive whether its hitting something extremely hard on the switch or beating the vast majority of the metagame in a 1 on 1 scenario. It's not supposed to constantly switch into attacks that chip down its health continously, it has other team mates for that.

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 232 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 114-135 (31.7 - 37.6%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 92 SpD Amoonguss: 144-170 (33.4 - 39.4%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 112-132 (31.1 - 36.7%)
252+ Atk Choice Band Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 168+ Def Amoonguss: 132-156 (30.6 - 36.1%)

Even with no defense investment Mega Venusaur is more specially bulky than Amoonguss and has basically the same amount of physical bulk. However, the power difference between them is huge. After spore has been used off, practically any neutral Pokemon can switch into Amoonguss with ease, whereas for Mega Venusaur, between SR and Sludge Bomb's poison chance nothing besides Spdef Jirachi, Heatran, and Chansey really enjoy switching in on it. With Giga Drain's recovery and more than decent power you're able to beat a whole bunch of Pokemon 1 v 1, such as Landorus-T, Garchomp, and Scarf Tyranitar, that you definitely wouldn't be able to with Amoonguss.

There's also the fact that Mega Venusaur is actually pretty unpredictable at times compared to Amoonguss which is extremely linear in what it can do. You don't need HP Fire for the last slot at all, especially given how common a partner Heatran is with it or using Heat Wave Zapdos which covers basically all the threats you want to hit with Hp fire anyways (skarm + Ferro + MSciz mainly). There's a bunch of cool stuff it can use for the last slot, like Leech Seed, Knock off, Earthquake, and one of my favs, Sleep Powder, so you can pretty much cripple any given Pokemon on your opponent's team and also utilize it to beat stuff like a boosted Clefable who wants to keep spamming CM vs you. MVenu is also much faster than Tangrowth & Amoongus and thus can easily customize its EV spread to outspeed stuff like Rotom-W and Suicune so they can't volt switch out or set up a CM first on you, respectively, and both will be severely weakened that you can finish them off.

Of course, then you have the obvious stuff Mega Venusaur walls way better than Amoongus/Tangrowth such as Mega Manectric, BD Azu, Fire Blast Mega Alt, non Zen Headbutt Mega Medicham, Serperior, TG Ice Beam Manaphy, HP Ice Thundurus, Crawdaunt, Weavile, and much more, but I'm assuming everyone knows this already...
 
I fully back MMetagross rising, as good as MHeracross is I find it downright silly that MMeta is ranked below it. A lot of teams rely entirely on Landorus-T or Rotom-W to handle it which is nowhere near enough, and it gets more than enough switchin opportunities against most teams to really put a dent in them, especially given how easily it takes advantage of common mons like Latios and Clefable. The fact that it provides a ton defensively and still hits like a truck and has pretty good speed (especially given that Latios and Diancie commonly carry HP Fire) makes it work really well on certain balanced teams. Rocky Helmet being an increasingly common item is defenitely a problem for it, but i don't think that's really a reason to keep it in A rank given that Lopunny suffers from the exact same problem, and it's being nominated to A+ rank (which I also support but can't bother to talk about). It's severely underappreciated and really deserves to be A rank imo.


I agree. After an RP boost barely anything outspeeds it and it rips A+ and S rank Fairies to shreds before they can do anything (and that's without an attack boost). After an attack boost, very little gets in it's way. After a speed boost, with RP, Meteor Mash, Ice Punch and Earthquake:
S Rank
- OHKO
- OHKO with a boost

A+ Rank
- OHKO
- OHKO
-
2HKO w/SR
-
56% to OHKO
-
OHKO with a boost
-
OHKO
-
stops it dead
-
stops it dead
-
OHKO
-
OHKO
-
OHKO
Excadrill - OHKO
-
stops it
-
OHKO
-
2HKO
-
OHKO
-
3HKO/2HKO with a boost/can't lose a straight up fight or if both have an attacking boost
-
2HKO
-
stops it but struggles to beat it
-
2HKO
-
OHKO
-
OHKO
-
OHKO

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-446528637 an example of it with a speed boost against several things above it

Very little above it can stop it, even the stuff it doesn't OHKO won't be able to kill it in return. that alone should be enough to see it go up at least 1 rank.
 
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A ---> A+: Agree

To me, while Mega Charizard X isn't the absolute top tier of Pokemon in the tier, it is definitely only a half a step down, as I find it not too hard to get a Dragon Dance or two up and have a field day from there. In my opinion, it feels like a true A+ Pokemon​

A- ---> A: Agree

Heck yeah. Whenever I've used Mega Metagross, it's netted me at least two and often more kills. It has multiple ways to setup, namely Meteor Mash and Agility, making it a devasting sweeper after only a couple of boosts. It also has great coverage, a very high base attack, and access to priority. The only major drawback is it's main STABs accuracy, which both sit at 90%, and if you don't run Meteor Mash, you have Iron Head, which doesn't have the same boosting potential or base power.​
 
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-446528637 an example of it with a speed boost against several things above it
I'm not sure what this 1100 rating replay is supposed to prove..

You also didn't use RP but simply passed it speed (why use RP if you're gonna pass speed?) your list is talking about an attack boost in addition, are you talking about a Meteor Mash boost? That's hardly something you can rely on, not to mention common mons like Rotom-W, Scizor, Slowbro and Ferrothorn wall the 3 attack set completely.

I'm actually fine with M-Meta being A, but I just don't think it's worthy of being A+ right now, and the RP set isn't viable at all for the above mentioned reason.

I feel like MM, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm is the only viable set atm, pursuit trapping is done better by Ttar, Scizor, Bisharp and Weavile (the latter only after something dies or with a U-Turn or Volt Switch.


It lacks the raw power of M-Cham and the speed and STAB coverage of M-Lop and as such doesn't deserve to be A+.
 
I'm not sure what this 1100 rating replay is supposed to prove..

You also didn't use RP but simply passed it speed (why use RP if you're gonna pass speed?) your list is talking about an attack boost in addition, are you talking about a Meteor Mash boost? That's hardly something you can rely on, not to mention common mons like Rotom-W, Scizor, Slowbro and Ferrothorn wall the 3 attack set completely.

I'm actually fine with M-Meta being A, but I just don't think it's worthy of being A+ right now, and the RP set isn't viable at all for the above mentioned reason.

I feel like MM, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm is the only viable set atm, pursuit trapping is done better by Ttar, Scizor, Bisharp and Weavile (the latter only after something dies or with a U-Turn or Volt Switch.


It lacks the raw power of M-Cham and the speed and STAB coverage of M-Lop and as such doesn't deserve to be A+.
Bringing this up because it triggers me p badly

saying that Mega Metagross is outclassed my Mega Cham is stupid for the following reasons: it has a higher speed tier and is far more flexible (i.e. can put in just as much work as Cham in a lot of games due to how great outspeeding stuff like Keld and Terrak is), has a great defensive typing that lets it act as a nice soft check to the likes of Lati's and a solid counter to fairies in OU. Its bulk is way better than that of Lopunny's plus its power is better - 517 attack isn't something to take lightly. Meta is faster than cham and stronger than Mlop, has better bulk, and has a nice defensive typing. Mlop is better obviously, but saying that "mlop is faster" honestly isn't a great argument for why it shouldn't rise, and saying "cham is stronger" doesn't cut it either, Metagross is a different mon than doesn't serve one purpose, don't compare apples to oranges. I personally think Metagross should rise to A - rank just because of how nice it is to abuse common archetypes in the meta and soft check common threats on offense while still being able to fit more than one archetype.

e: ofc cham and lop are better lol - it's just a matter of whose qualities and specific traits are more desired in the current meta
 
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Bringing this up because it triggers me p badly

saying that Mega Metagross is outclassed my Mega Cham is stupid for the following reasons: it has a higher speed tier and is far more flexible (i.e. can put in just as much work as Cham in a lot of games due to how great outspeeding stuff like Keld and Terrak is), has a great defensive typing that lets it act as a nice soft check to the likes of Lati's and a solid counter to fairies in OU. Its bulk is way better than that of Lopunny's plus its power is better - 517 attack isn't something to take lightly. Meta is faster than cham and stronger than Mlop, has better bulk, and has a nice defensive typing. Mlop is better obviously, but saying that "mlop is faster" honestly isn't a great argument for why it shouldn't rise, and saying "cham is stronger" doesn't cut it either, Metagross is a different mon than doesn't serve one purpose, don't compare apples to oranges. I personally think Metagross should rise to A - rank just because of how nice it is to abuse common archetypes in the meta and soft check common threats on offense while still being able to fit more than one archetype.
Obviously those mons have completely different roles, but they're still primarily offensive mons and M-Meta simply struggles against a lot of common mons whereas Cham and Lop don't (or not as much anyway) which is why I think they deserve to be higher in the VR list then M-Meta, there's not really any 1:1 comparable mon to M-Meta in the tier and the point of this thread is to rank mons based on their relative viability so comparisons between different type of mons are neccesary.
 
Espeon to D. Espeon is an extremely niche pokemon but has shown quite a bit of success in the OLT cycles. Espeon is pretty much essential when placed on baton pass teams due to its great ability to prevent phasing and status and can may be powerful with stored power when paired with Scolipede. All credit to the OLT discussion page.
 

Anish

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I'm not sure what this 1100 rating replay is supposed to prove..

You also didn't use RP but simply passed it speed (why use RP if you're gonna pass speed?) your list is talking about an attack boost in addition, are you talking about a Meteor Mash boost? That's hardly something you can rely on, not to mention common mons like Rotom-W, Scizor, Slowbro and Ferrothorn wall the 3 attack set completely.

I'm actually fine with M-Meta being A, but I just don't think it's worthy of being A+ right now, and the RP set isn't viable at all for the above mentioned reason.

I feel like MM, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm is the only viable set atm, pursuit trapping is done better by Ttar, Scizor, Bisharp and Weavile (the latter only after something dies or with a U-Turn or Volt Switch.


It lacks the raw power of M-Cham and the speed and STAB coverage of M-Lop and as such doesn't deserve to be A+.
I'm pretty sure he nominated MMeta to A.

To prevent this from being a shitpost I'd like to state my opinions on the MMeta nom. I strongly agree with it going to A, MMeta is really slept upon in the work it can put against offense teams. Def Lando builds, although slightly losing popularity to Scarf Lando + setter, really struggle to deal with this because of the combination of its power. typing, and decent speed, as well as clear body early on, and mmeta can afford to take Rocky damage once. The rise of rocks fable is good for this, as it switches in so much better to it, without fearing the fire balst/t wave. Def rachi etc are also free switch ins, and since scarf lando builds generally run those two + tran( which gets 1v1ed make those builds only MMeta check wash, which is easy to wear down especially if partnered with something that baits in wash (ur own scarf lando or Tornadus)to knock off the lefties, and that wash cannot even threaten the Pain Split because scarf lando builds generally need wash to run T Wave. Although metas 4mss is continuously brought up, the fact is that in order to scout your opponent has to risk a mon and while it does get trapper by the likes of dugtrio, it is important to remember that in order to get trapped duggy teams need to sac a mon, or risk duggy while predicting the thunder punch, and stall cores can sometimes be easily broken down after they sac something. It's got great defensive utility, with great defensive typing and bulk, even if it is easy to wear down. The only common mons that beat mmeta are mega Scizor Zard X Wash(zen is slightly more common because of the popularity of this, m Hera, and even m vena to an extent), the rest lose to some sort of coverage, which could aid another Pokémon (knot could help on thundy builds etc)
 
I really wonder why suicune is still B+ and Kyurem is C+.

Suicune should rise for it's new set which is VinCune (sub protect with speedy ev). Cobination of sub and pretect allows it to beat it's usual counters like amoonguss, tangrowth, ferrothorn or manaphy (yeah I once stole out energy balls) and it can even beat clef 1v1 just by PP stall.

But PP stalling isn't only great thing about this set. With extra speed and sub you don't need as much boosts as usual and you can be extremely threatening with just +2 and kill 2 or 3 mons.

And specs Kyurem is just insane. Ice resist are almost nonexsisiting and it's so easy to just make this mons get kills. Without life orb you can actually use Kyurem great bulk and tank some hits.

Other than that I'm against ZardX in A+ but I support Gross in A. ZardX isn't as insane as Lopunny which is honestly best mega after scizor. I can't stress enough how good Lopunny is.
 
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p2

Banned deucer.
nomming cune again for a-. subcm has really solidified cunes place as a threat in ou since it threatens all common annoyances to roar/crocune like grasses, taunts from like heatran, strong choice users etc. its also an incredibly strong wincon against a lot of fatter teams since it gets out of control very quickly and sets up on p much everything, not to mention theres so much stuff like clef /spdef rachi / tran / fat grounds / less psyshock latis etc which all benefit cune massively since theres more and more mons which just throw setup opportunties at cune.


also nomming hydra for b+/a-. b- is a sin and yes, specs is just that good.
 
Just dropping in here to say I fully support Suicune moving up to A-, especially for the Vincune set. The standard CroCune and CM+Roar sets are good in their own right, but the Vincune set is another beast entirely. I can't overstate the significance of how many ubiquitous Pokemon that would normally check Suicune are pure set up fodder for Vincune (Clefable, Heatran, bulky waters, most grass types, steels, etc.). It's absurdly easy for Vincune to come in and nab a few boosts, becoming almost unbreakable on the special side while threatening its physical checks with burns. Its pure Water typing is also a bit of a blessing in this metagame, leaving it without an easily exploitable weakness like similar CM users, and allowing it to muscle through most common Water-type checks through a combination of CM boosts and pp-stalling.

Vincune is a lethal threat in the current metagame, especially given how unprepared most teams are for it. That'll probably change when (if) people start realizing how dangerous it is, but even then it'll still be very potent. A rise to A- is long overdue.
 

Tele

a quality human being
Landorus-T: S-->A+ and Clefable: S-->A+:
If this were to go through, S rank would cease to exist. Now, this has nothing to do with the idiotic discussion about S+ and ordered ranks which has happened over the past page or so, but rather it comes down to one simple opinion: I believe that there is no pinnacle of the metagame. I think Clefable was placed on a pedestal unnecessarily, I think that Lando shouldn't be above quite a few things in A+, and I think there is a bad mindset in this thread that there should be something to represent the absolute top of OU. However, while I don't disagree that Clefable is the "best", I do not think that it is so far above everything to warrant it being an entire subrank above the rest of the metagame. In fact, I think it is by an extremely narrow margin. Like, I think that currently S rank seems to be lacking a lot of the "defining" aspect that I think should be the case in an S tier, and as such I do not believe that anything is really so defining to deserve such an honour. When I said that this has nothing to do with the idiotic discussions, that was a half-lie. There is reference that can be made to it, although it is not really a primary driver for this nomination so much as my view of the metagame as a whole is, but the reference I will make to it is that this also fixes a lot of logistics which have been a constant, pointless argument within this thread: the arguments of what should be S. I think that there is a big lack of clarity regarding what it means to be an S rank, and between the people who think that this list should be a straight up list of most viable-->least viable and the people who believe that S rank should have some extra meaning than just "the best" and that it should act like a pinnacle this is still unresolved, and I believe that this is because--unlike in other tiers and in past metagames--there is no simple answer to this in the OU metagame, and as such I do not believe that there is any call for a badge like that to be pinned onto any Pokémon because there is no real framework for what this badge means if there is no one defining force like there is in BW (sand), like there is in GSC (Snorlax), like there is in ubers (PDon), like there is in NU (normal spam) etc. and as such there is no real framework to base the rank on. I'm starting to repeat myself now so I'll stop but yeah this is a 100% serious nomination.
I particularly agree with this post especially when it says: "I believe that there is no pinnacle of the metagame. I think Clefable was placed on a pedestal unnecessarily, I think that Lando shouldn't be above quite a few things in A+, and I think there is a bad mindset in this thread that there should be something to represent the absolute top of OU."

While I think Clefable can be considered S rank under some aspects (for example no other pokemon can perform so many different roles in the actual metagame), I think that is not the case with Lando-t. Firstly, when building a team, I never find myself thinking "ok now I need something to check/counter Landorus otherwise im going to be swept". Secondly, it isnt even too great at doing what it does most of the time, which is switching into things like Metagross or Charizard. Thats also part of the reason to why im no fan of this pokemon and i rarely use it as you can tell from my tournament games.

I think you just need to accept the fact that except for clefable and manaphy (which to my big surprise is listed lower than rotomw, i think we should talk more about that and less about lando) there is no other pokemon that stand out among the others, and there is no overpowered pokemon like greninja or hoopa anymore.
 

Threw

cohiba
Hydreigon is more than deserving of a rank much higher than its current B-. This mon has been getting a lot of hype recently, and for good reason: the sheer power of its Specs set combined with its incredible versatility (not just the options of Specs, Scarf, and LO, and not just a plethora of move combinations it can run on LO sets, but even more niche options like Taunt Roost Dread Plate or even E-Belt and other Choice bluffs) leads to a mon that has the potential to be extremely scary for every playstyle, including stall. We all know about its offensive prowess, but something that tends to go under the radar is Hydreigon's defensive utility. Levitate is obviously one of the best abilities in the game, not only for keeping Lando from spamming EQs but also to reduce residual damage from Spikes; this in conjunction with Roost, a number of useful resistances and 92/90/90 bulk that is simply excellent for such an overwhelmingly offensive mon makes it surprisingly hard to wear down if you don't want it to be. Another important point is its incredible natural synergy with Pursuit trappers like Mega Metagross, which can easily dispose of its most common checks, the Latis, and leave it free to wreak havoc on opposing teams.

I'm not going to write an essay about Hydreigon because we all know what it does and how good it is at doing it, so suffice it to say that this is a Pokemon that, again, puts pressure on every kind of build almost regardless of what set it's running, and does so consistently and without much support required. Because of all this, I think B+ is a much fairer assessment of its viability - it's definitely more consistent than something like Nidoking and it's honestly better than Volcanion too, but for now B+ works ig.

Just realized p2 already made this nom but I spent like 3 whole minutes on this so take it anyway
 

bludz

a waffle is like a pancake with a syrup trap
is a Community Leader Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
I agree that Hydreigon should rise to B or B+. Part of the reason it originally dropped so far was due to the influence of Hoopa-Unbound which essentially outclassed it. With Hoopa gone we've seen Hydreigon adopt Specs as its primary set to abuse the spammability of Dark Pulse. While it is checked by many common threats on offense such as Keldeo and Mega Diancie, it is strong against most of the slower mons on slightly bulkier offensive teams, like Rotom-Wash and Heatran. One drawback that most Choice item users have is that they can provide setup opportunities for opponents, but Hydreigon doesn't allow all that many due to how strong Specs Dark Pulse is -- for example Bisharp cannot safely SD up and Azumarill can't BD up. Access to U-turn can also be useful to avoid losing momentum on an incorrect prediction.

I also think we can consider Terrakion back down to B+. It's a good mon but the whole phase where Band was rampant has kinda died down due to the meta adapting with more Rock resists such as Jirachi. This forces more 50/50s (particularly Rachi + Lando combos), combined with a rise in Dugtrio on stall teams which formerly had to play around Banded sets. Since its best set lost effectiveness and Scarf hasn't exactly stepped up to the level Band was on a few months ago, I would say its fair to compare Terrakion more to Crawdaunt in terms of viability than say Bisharp.
 

Funbot28

Banned deucer.
B- -> B/B+

Dugtrio is a threat that was risen quite predominantly throughout the past month or so thanks to its ability to trap and likely KO threats on the opposing team which is vital on certain offense and most importantly stall teams. Easily taking out mons such as CB Tyranitar and Heatran can be very helpful and is the reason why most of its victims (mainly Heatran) are starting to run Air Ballon more often just so that they are not easily neutralized by Dugtrio. Sash Reversal with Screech also helps Duggy take out more bully targets such as Chansey and Manaphy which is also extremely helpful when Dugtrio is paired with stall. Its offensive support is quite effective in the current meta due to trapping being so hard to deal with at times, and I rise to either B or B+ seems warranted at this point (I would actually prefer B+ rn). Here are some replays with ABR using it quite effectively:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-429463319
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-429763714


Also agree with Suicune rising to A-, Hydreigon to B+, and Terrakion moving down to B+. Everyone else stated my reasoning for this already so I wont be redundant in this case.
 
I fully back MMetagross rising, as good as MHeracross is I find it downright silly that MMeta is ranked below it. A lot of teams rely entirely on Landorus-T or Rotom-W to handle it which is nowhere near enough, and it gets more than enough switchin opportunities against most teams to really put a dent in them, especially given how easily it takes advantage of common mons like Latios and Clefable. The fact that it provides a ton defensively and still hits like a truck and has pretty good speed (especially given that Latios and Diancie commonly carry HP Fire) makes it work really well on certain balanced teams. Rocky Helmet being an increasingly common item is defenitely a problem for it, but i don't think that's really a reason to keep it in A rank given that Lopunny suffers from the exact same problem, and it's being nominated to A+ rank (which I also support but can't bother to talk about). It's severely underappreciated and really deserves to be A rank imo.


I agree. After an RP boost barely anything outspeeds it and it rips A+ and S rank Fairies to shreds before they can do anything (and that's without an attack boost). After an attack boost, very little gets in it's way. After a speed boost, with RP, Meteor Mash, Ice Punch and Earthquake:
S Rank
- OHKO
- OHKO with a boost

A+ Rank
- OHKO
- OHKO
-
2HKO w/SR
-
56% to OHKO
-
OHKO with a boost
-
OHKO
-
stops it dead
-
stops it dead
-
OHKO
-
OHKO
-
OHKO
Excadrill - OHKO
-
stops it
-
OHKO
-
2HKO
-
OHKO
-
3HKO/2HKO with a boost/can't lose a straight up fight or if both have an attacking boost
-
2HKO
-
stops it but struggles to beat it
-
2HKO
-
OHKO
-
OHKO
-
OHKO

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-446528637 an example of it with a speed boost against several things above it

Very little above it can stop it, even the stuff it doesn't OHKO won't be able to kill it in return. that alone should be enough to see it go up at least 1 rank.
rotom-wash isnt a mega metagross switch in. Yes the lack of zen headbutt makes it more annoying to break past rotom-w, but hammer arm + rocks already pressures rotom w a lot. With zen headbutt, mega metagross 1 hits KOs mega heracross 2 hit KOs rotom w after rocks iirc, 2 hit KOs manaphy with zen after rocks, ect. The main problem with mega metagross is that in some situations, thunder punch sometimes isnt needed and sometimes zen headbutt is more needed. An example is being able to hit rotom w a lot harder if thats their only answer to mega metagross. Also a big problem is bulky SD mega sciz of course. But after 2 rounds of rocks then hammer arm 2 hit Kos. Mega Metagross is VERY hard to deal with for so many teams that don't run mega scizor. A lot of things that would revenge kill it fail to 1 hit KO. Not much 1 hit KOs it and I agree that it should be A rank
 
rotom-wash isnt a mega metagross switch in. Yes the lack of zen headbutt makes it more annoying to break past rotom-w, but hammer arm + rocks already pressures rotom w a lot. With zen headbutt, mega metagross 1 hits KOs mega heracross 2 hit KOs rotom w after rocks iirc, 2 hit KOs manaphy with zen after rocks, ect. The main problem with mega metagross is that in some situations, thunder punch sometimes isnt needed and sometimes zen headbutt is more needed. An example is being able to hit rotom w a lot harder if thats their only answer to mega metagross. Also a big problem is bulky SD mega sciz of course. But after 2 rounds of rocks then hammer arm 2 hit Kos. Mega Metagross is VERY hard to deal with for so many teams that don't run mega scizor. A lot of things that would revenge kill it fail to 1 hit KO. Not much 1 hit KOs it and I agree that it should be A rank
Rotom-W walls the set that guy posted (which is partly why it's a bad set), other than that I agree with your post.
 

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