Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

Martin

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Like, if I'm honest while I said that Latios and Torny-T should go to S before Lando did I don't really think that Latios is all that S worthy. Like, I don't like ABR's reasoning very much in some parts tbh and think it kinda misses the point with it a bit while also having holes in it such as the "playing around" fallacy, and I also don't think that Defog variants should have much baring (if any) on it's ranking 'cause they're complete ass and are complete bait for Pokémon like Tyranitar to take advantage of it and/or force 50:50s without actually providing a particularly good hazard remover relative to Latias due to the latter's better bulk+incentive to invest defensively making it far more consistent in such a role (I've explained why HW isn't mandatory on it in the past so please ffs don't bring that up). That said, I do agree with him that it really isn't worth pushing up 'cause regardless of how bad Tyranitar arguments are it doesn't account for the fact that Latios is complete bait for extremely common Pokémon like Weavile to take advantage of it, and given how often it's primary killing option is Draco it just opens up a whole other bag of worms regarding stuff using it for setup bait. That said, I still stand by Lando not being as good as it is.

With that out of the way, I'm going to make two noms; one of them isn't that out there, but the other is kinda controversial (which one is which should be blatantly obvious). It's not like I'm not known for having semi-radical opinions, so I'm gonna go ahead and make this nom regardless of what people may say.

Landorus-T: S-->A+ and Clefable: S-->A+:
If this were to go through, S rank would cease to exist. Now, this has nothing to do with the idiotic discussion about S+ and ordered ranks which has happened over the past page or so, but rather it comes down to one simple opinion: I believe that there is no pinnacle of the metagame. I think Clefable was placed on a pedestal unnecessarily, I think that Lando shouldn't be above quite a few things in A+, and I think there is a bad mindset in this thread that there should be something to represent the absolute top of OU. However, while I don't disagree that Clefable is the "best", I do not think that it is so far above everything to warrant it being an entire subrank above the rest of the metagame. In fact, I think it is by an extremely narrow margin. Like, I think that currently S rank seems to be lacking a lot of the "defining" aspect that I think should be the case in an S tier, and as such I do not believe that anything is really so defining to deserve such an honour. When I said that this has nothing to do with the idiotic discussions, that was a half-lie. There is reference that can be made to it, although it is not really a primary driver for this nomination so much as my view of the metagame as a whole is, but the reference I will make to it is that this also fixes a lot of logistics which have been a constant, pointless argument within this thread: the arguments of what should be S. I think that there is a big lack of clarity regarding what it means to be an S rank, and between the people who think that this list should be a straight up list of most viable-->least viable and the people who believe that S rank should have some extra meaning than just "the best" and that it should act like a pinnacle this is still unresolved, and I believe that this is because--unlike in other tiers and in past metagames--there is no simple answer to this in the OU metagame, and as such I do not believe that there is any call for a badge like that to be pinned onto any Pokémon because there is no real framework for what this badge means if there is no one defining force like there is in BW (sand), like there is in GSC (Snorlax), like there is in ubers (PDon), like there is in NU (normal spam) etc. and as such there is no real framework to base the rank on. I'm starting to repeat myself now so I'll stop but yeah this is a 100% serious nomination.
 
I think that discussion about whole S rank thing is rather pointless.

I'm sure that we all agree that Latios and Landrus are some of most vaible mons in OU. I've never seen a man saying that one of them is bad or mediocre.

Saying that latios is clearly better than lando or vice versa is not logical at all. They are two different, incomparable mons and putting landorus in S rank and Latios in A+ is more matter of preference than real diffrence in viability between these mons.

So this discussion turns into words fencing rather than putting and proving arguments.
 
Well, looks like the tiers shift a little bit. I won't make a reply about it because I agree with all the changes, and i don't think there is any argument to complement or disagree against it. Now i see that the trending topic is about the Rank S, so I'll be quick. The pokemons that I think should move to S are Latios and Mega-Scizor. Honestly, I wouldn't be nominating Latios, if wasn't his Surf set, thanks to that, Latios can pretty much eliminate his biggest threat, Tyranitar and weaken the common switches Heatran, Skarmory, Bisharp, Excadrill and Etceteras. By doing that, Latios is now able to not only guarantee hazard removal but also take at least half of the HP bar of a great portion of the metagame, increasing its Metagame impact even further. For Mega-Scizor, I already posted about that, so, I'll go with the one-liner mode inb4 mods mad at me. Scizor hits so hard with priority, is very bulky with a type that has one major weakness, Splashable, Variety of Sets and Moves, Hugely impacts within the Metagame thanks to STAB U-Turn and Knock Off, being a huge threat to both defensive and offensive playstyles, Checks other huge metagame impact pokemon su ch as Latios, Clefable. Goes well alongside many of the S - A rank pokemon, Etceteras. Also to address, some people are nominating Tornadus-T to Rank S, well, I have to disagree with this one. I think he is not as impactant as the others S ranks, and i believe he is perfectly suited to A+ in the moment.
 

Srn

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I've been a supporter of Lando-T to S for a long time and I'm glad to see it finally happening.
But everybody pretty much knows what lando-t does already: defensive variants check half the meta, set rocks, pivots fantastically; offensive sets can blast through typical checks like slowbro and quagsire with LO earthquakes and knock offs while breaking past skarmory and rotom-w with some cool gravity sets and what not, and hp ice opposing lando-t and phys def tangrowth as well, or SD vs hippos, ferrothorns, etc, double dance sets can clean games, and choice scarf is one of the best revenge killers and pivots in the tier. Anybody who thinks Lando-t isn't as versatile and effective as clefable is kidding themselves; but its true that lando-t gets worn down pretty fast and doesn't have half of the staying power that clefable does. I think this is what separates lanT from clefable, and clefable is still better than lanT by a clear margin because of this. They're both worthy of S rank though.

I think mega lopunny is fine where it is personally. I dont think anything has really changed to benefit mega lop, and the arguments people are using for it to go up to A+ are pretty much the same ones for keeping it A. Ada lop is nice for 2hko'ing some clefables and fake out+return actually killing azelf on xtra's HO (its ev'd to live jolly fake out+return 100% of the time), and ada fake out+qa becomes a cool revenge killer too, but ada lop has its obvious downsides in that it cannot revenge kill LO zam, torn, and weavile as easily. That's really the only things that have changed for lop in the meta, and its a little surge in popularity for ada lop certainly isn't enough to push it to A+

I feel the same way for mega medicham: its arguable the best and most consistent wallbreaker, only stopped by a few bulky psychics and mega sab which can be worked around, sporting good speed, amazing consistency, and usable priority with ok bulk. But that's exactly what pushed it to A, and I dont think it's really an A+ mon. It needs to be built around and supported, its not splashable in the slightest. well I guess it's already in A+ but I'm against the move personally.

Azu definitely deserved to get pushed down. Phys Def tangrowth's popularity has been a gigantic annoyance for azu, and ferro/amoong/rotom-w popularity hasn't really dropped. Only Mega venu has dropped significantly in usage but that's really not enough to keep Azu in A. What was always azumarill's biggest flaw, in my opinion, is that its not really a water resist because switching in azu into a scald is so risky. Sure, it can beat zard-x/lando-t/keldeo/etc 1v1 but that's not enough when realistically, you're taking hazards, sand, risking scald burns, and taking iron barbs/rocky helmet. Even physdef lanT is switching in semi-comfortably to punish any non-waterfall play. It can chill at A-

kyurem, i imagine, is being nommed mostly due to the popularity and effectiveness of the choice specs set. Its certainly good; a solid ice type special attacker that has the brute force to better muscle past checks like clefable, tyranitar, and ferrothorn while also checking some annoying mons like rotom-w, manaphy, and electrics is very good and underrated. It's a bit reliant on its coverage to hit steels but its ice beam is fairly spammable, it likes hazard removal due to its sr weakness but it can at atleast threaten almost every sr setter out there. It's a mon that can move up for sure.

As far as latios goes, I agree with what ABR has to say. While it's true that latios is strapped for moveslots to cover all bases, it wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing if teams didn't easily pack more than 1 check to latios. If the only check somebody had was ferro, latios is a significant threat solely because it might have so many options. The problem is that something like clefable+scarf tar, two incredibly common mons on balance, can handle literally everything latios can do. Forget about checks like mgarde, jirachi, scizor, ferro, mmeta, heatran, and even weird crap like bulky pursuit maero. Latios has so much trouble threatening mons, removing hazards, and staying alive to check what's needed that it will often find itself very overwhelmed. Such is the fate when oras ou is teeming with so many broken pokemon that you just need band-aids like latios, lando-t, and keldeo to stick on a team and call it a day. Either way, it simply does not boast the same ability to get around potentially multiple of its checks that lando-T can, and that's why it's fine at A+
 
Landorus-T: S-->A+ and Clefable: S-->A+:
If this were to go through, S rank would cease to exist. Now, this has nothing to do with the idiotic discussion about S+ and ordered ranks which has happened over the past page or so, but rather it comes down to one simple opinion: I believe that there is no pinnacle of the metagame. I think Clefable was placed on a pedestal unnecessarily, I think that Lando shouldn't be above quite a few things in A+, and I think there is a bad mindset in this thread that there should be something to represent the absolute top of OU. However, while I don't disagree that Clefable is the "best", I do not think that it is so far above everything to warrant it being an entire subrank above the rest of the metagame. In fact, I think it is by an extremely narrow margin. Like, I think that currently S rank seems to be lacking a lot of the "defining" aspect that I think should be the case in an S tier, and as such I do not believe that anything is really so defining to deserve such an honour. When I said that this has nothing to do with the idiotic discussions, that was a half-lie. There is reference that can be made to it, although it is not really a primary driver for this nomination so much as my view of the metagame as a whole is, but the reference I will make to it is that this also fixes a lot of logistics which have been a constant, pointless argument within this thread: the arguments of what should be S. I think that there is a big lack of clarity regarding what it means to be an S rank, and between the people who think that this list should be a straight up list of most viable-->least viable and the people who believe that S rank should have some extra meaning than just "the best" and that it should act like a pinnacle this is still unresolved, and I believe that this is because--unlike in other tiers and in past metagames--there is no simple answer to this in the OU metagame, and as such I do not believe that there is any call for a badge like that to be pinned onto any Pokémon because there is no real framework for what this badge means if there is no one defining force like there is in BW (sand), like there is in GSC (Snorlax), like there is in ubers (PDon), like there is in NU (normal spam) etc. and as such there is no real framework to base the rank on. I'm starting to repeat myself now so I'll stop but yeah this is a 100% serious nomination.
yeah thanks for saying this, cause there's definitely been an exaggeration of Clefable's power in recent months, and people mindlessly defending it's status for idk whatever reasons. Maybe cause ppl love championing a gen 1 blob mon as the 'most powerful mon in ou.'

It's clear clef is a top-tier threat and very good mon, but anyone who thinks it alone defines the current meta simply hasn't been playing the meta recently. It's a weird shift, because I think it's caused more by a stagnant and aging meta in which people are just switching it up for variety's sake. Clef is such a force because it can pull off soo many different things, BUT, it doesn't necessarily do any 1 of those things (and it can only do 1 at a time, obv) soo far and away better than anyone else in the tier. I don't know about everyone else here, but I don't even think about preparing for clef anymore, it just kinda happens by default (in part because Heatran is v easy to slap on a team rn, and slap it I do).

But basically I agree with this, kinda feel like we have mons in S rank rn just, to have mons in S rank. It's an old meta. everything is prepared for and I don't feel there's any single mon that strikes me at preview the way GSC snorlax would. it's a weird situation idk maybe fux it, wait for the next one to start.
EDIT: but given the current situation, 100% behind lando-t in S.
 

MrAldo

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Clefable is clearly one step ahead of basically everything in A+, like seriously, this beast hasnt earned its S rank just because it "defines the meta", everything on the higher ranks defines the meta in their own way against the matchups they excel on (You have to clearly think about mega lopunny on offense, Keldeo is something that NEEDS to be prepared for and even then you are gonna have a hard time with it, Life Orb Torn if you ever want to use balance, etc) but Clefable is a completely different case. This Pokemon just brings to the table so many good things for a team, blessed with Magic Guard which is easily one of the best abilities in the game meaning it is a defensive pivot that isnt affected by hazards, trait that isnt shared by anything if you consider all the utility in provide in being a Dark Resist and having Stealth Rock in order to ease teambuilding and allowing you to use your ground types like lando-t in any other way you want.

Clefable is also one of the few Pokemon that have the luxury of having completely different responses depending of what 4th coverage move it uses. It just takes 1 move for its checks for just to not be good checks anymore. Thunder Wave basically eliminating its own checks from the match and providing that team support, coverage moves like flamethrower, ice beam, thunderbolt, focus blast, knock off, etc. Crazy combinations like calm mind bolt beam are completely doable as well, and the combination of moonblast + any of the coverage moves mentioned is a huge possibility as well. Even tho it cant do all the mentioned at once, thats precisely the advantage it has. The fact it can manage to pull off all of it effectively with ease it means you will never know what it could be running, meaning you could just be praying it isnt running the 4th move that dismantles your checks. That huge degree of versatility is what makes clefable such a beast and 1 step above everyone in the metagame.

Having Heatran alone will not save you from some variants. The theory differs a lot from the practice. There are more than 2 clefable sets guys. The fact most people settle with just 2 sets on average saddens me when the coverage is just so good.

I dont know if Lando-T is S but I guess it is kind of late for that. Its usage speaks for itself I guess. Please no S+ rank or subdivisions of S ranks please. Thats extremely unnecessary. Latios isnt S btw (can elaborate if necessary).

And can we please not be pretentious as hell? Saying phrases suchas "they havent been playing the meta" just because you differ with a general opinion doesnt enhance the power of your opinion and is completely unnecessary
 
Have we really stooped so low as to begin arguing semantics? I'm all for going against the grain, but really?

This is a viability ranking, not a "who defines the meta the most" ranking, thread. When we place a mon it should be based off of how viable it is in the current meta. A simple concept. Clef, is easily, the most versatile, and in turn, most viable Pokemon in OU. There is no question about that. It can easily deal with its checks, it can set up rocks, it can set up and clean, it absorb status, the list goes on. Again, a simple concept. As far as Landorus goes, it is nowhere near the level of Clefable, but it doesn't need to be. Again, it is a versatile Pokemon, and almost always a viable and very useful pick for a VAST majority of teams. Intimidate, rocks, Double Dance, SR SD, knock off support, awesome typing, again, the list goes on.

Let's not make this into an argument over how meta defining it is. This thread is meant to be a starting point, to see who the most viable Pokemon in the tier are, those Pokemon are easily, Clefable and Landorus T.
 
Going away from the S Rank discussion;


C to C+/B-

I'm surprised this hasn't been nommed a lot sooner. It's basically THE suicide lead after xtra chips. It's a Stealth Rocker that can beat Latios, which is not something that a lot of rockers can do. It also has Taunt to stop other rockers and the like. Azelf not getting off its rocks is a rare thing, as Suicide Lead sets always run Sash and it has Skill Swap for Mega Diancie and Mega Sableye. Explosion deals a shit lot of damage and gives you momentum, which basically technically makes the match start with only 5 Pokemon, but you have rocks up while the opponent doesn't. This makes it a great option for any hyper offense team. I think that C is definitely underselling it.
 

Leftiez

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Concerning Clefable, i'd like to say that Clefable has absolutely no reason to be removed from S Rank, clefable is the most polyvalent pokemon in the tier and fullfils its roles perfectly, he can provide both defensive and offensive tools at its best without having to shift between its moveset (per exemple Calm Mind + Thunder Wave allows him to beat most of its checks such as Venusaure, Heatran or even Skarmory).

However it's relatively true that the metagame has adapted to this threat over the past months but he still remains extremely good at what he's doing and i do think that's a good reason as why he deserves S Rank, in top of that you can notice that Clefable has an incredibly high amount of usage in tour and we should take care of that, i mean it almost got suspect tested in the past when people were complaining about how unhealthy it was for the metagame.

What i'm trying to explain is that Clefable is S Rank not just because of how he's defining the metagame but more because of how he benefits the one who uses it in multiple cases in addition to be one of the phew pokemon that you can use in every single playstyle.
I'm not saying that Clefable is a must which would be a little exaggerated here but we can't deny the fact that his presence is always an advantage regardless of the set / team he's used in and this should be enough to put him in S Rank.

Clefable should stay in S Rank!
 

Gary

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Damn you guys are so easily swayed sometimes lol. I could have sworn everyone not long ago everyone was freaking out that Lando-T wasn't S, and now all of the sudden I'm seeing the exact same individuals post how it should have stayed A+? Make up your minds lol, stick to your opinion and try to build from it unless you're provided with a lot of evidence to disprove yours, which I haven't really seen yet regarding Lando-T.

Okay so I'm going to try and explain the whole reasoning behind Lando-T moving up to S as best as I can. I wish I saved the logs because it would really save me a lot of typing here, but the ranking team had a pretty long discussion on what truly makes a Pokemon qualified for S rank. When we first created the new VR, Clefable was the centerpiece of S rank for a reason because we felt that there was nothing else in the tier that truly reached its level, so we thought it would make sense that it should define S rank and only Pokemon that compare to its effectiveness and threat level could be paired alongside it, which realistically at this point in the meta, would never have happened because of its stability. There's just absolutely nothing in the tier that does what Clefable does for or against teams, and at the same time is able to provide an immense amount of support both offensively and defensively with just a few sets. In simplest terms, it's a Pokemon that is able to preform exceptionally well without much support, it's splashable, and can get around most of its common checks or counters if played correctly. It qualifies as an S rank Pokemon in almost every way.

Then of course, you have Landorus-T, which is an entirely different kind of Pokemon. Unlike Clefable it's not that difficult to check or counter, it has more notable flaws that prevent it from doing its job consistently, and it doesn't have the greatest matchups sometimes. Depending on the set it runs, it's either not strong enough to muscle through fatter teams, not bulky enough to sustain constant hits from Pokemon its meant to check, or not fast enough to revenge kill Pokemon commonly found on offense. Against Sableye stall unless running SD, it's very rarely going to get up rocks, which is what it's meant to do 75% of the time, and many of the Pokemon it's meant to switch into such as Lopunny, Mega Metagross, or even Lando-T, have ways of getting around it or luring it in so it's not that consistent at doing its job. So why would it deserve to be in S rank with the likes of Clefable?

Well the ranking team decided that Landorus-T deserves to be in S rank for an entirely different reasoning, and most of that simply comes down to role compression. Much like Clef, Landorus-T distinguishes itself as being the most useful and splashable Pokemon in the tier. Rarely will you ever find yourself not using Landorus-T on practically any team bar stall or like super HO, because it just compresses so many roles into one. While it may not be as consistent as Clefable, Landorus-T overall provides more for teams due to its amazing combination of offensive and defensive prowess, while providing great utility and a blanket check to practically every common physical attacker in the tier bar a few. You'll find that many players struggle to build teams without Landorus-T because if you choose not to use it, they have to compensate for it by spreading out their team roles which otherwise could have just fit in one slot. There is no other Pokemon in the tier that provides so much for teams to a point where you are actually hindering yourself by not using it. That alone is should show just how influential and important Landorus-T is. Clefable is very good, but there are lots of teams where Clefable isn't that great of a fit for it. As dumb as it is to use it on every team, it actually frees up the ability for more creative team building because of its ability to preform so many roles, so I'd go as far as to say that without Landorus-T, the tier itself would kinda fall apart and team building would be a lot more restrictive.

So no, the S rank has not gotten less strict, and no Pokemon like Latios, Torn-T, or Keldeo shouldn't be moved up. It was a hard decision, but ultimately we decided that Landorus-T fit the bill for S rank because of its massive impact its had on team building and how there's just no other Pokemon that can compress so many roles into one, which makes it unique. Clefable may be the dictator of OU, but Lando-T is the face of team building and the ORAS metagame. I can explain why Latios and Torn-T don't fit the bill of S rank, but I'm not going to talk about it in this post, it's long enough lol.
 

B+ to B

B+ is definitely overselling Latias. Most teams will use Latios over this, and for good reason. Latios's extra power is much appreciated. That's pretty much all there is to the story, but that alone makes a big difference. Latias has better bulk, but you won't always have the room to run a recovery move unlike Latios. Honestly, the only reason why you'd use Latias over Latios is Healing Wish, which is nice I guess, but you generally want to keep your hazard remover alive for as long as you can, you're usually forced to save it until the opponent's rocker is gone. You can run Recover over Defog to not be as outclassed, but since Latias has no room for coverage moves (unlike Latios) it just makes it super passive and difficult to use outside of getting off its Healing Wishes. IMO it's no better than Alakazam, Altaria-Mega, Dragonite, Gyarados, or even Dugtrio. For the reasons that I mentioned, Latias should move down to its true home and where it belongs, B.
 
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Martin

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I'm just gonna link this here because I can't be bothered to repeat the same things that I said back in June. A small number of things in this post are a tad outdated (mono attacking Latias isn't good anymore please just run Defog over Healing Wish if you desperately need a Defog Lati twin fsr (although that set is bad in most cases anyway); the moveset is Draco+Psychic+Roost+filler as far as I'm concerned) but yeah the "outclassed by Latios" argument is just asinine because the two serve different purposes on a team (for instance, running Latias with what is imo it's best spread (152 HP) means that you have an actual Keldeo switch-in, which Latios really isn't) and it fails to account for the fact that Latias is more consistent at actually checking the things that the Lati twins check, and the argument that Healing Wish is a necessity which for some reason people still fall back onto despite it holding pretty much zero footing is equally bad, if not even worse.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-ou-metagame-discussion.3573990/page-2#post-6847271
 
idk what world you live in but latios is a keld switchin 90% of the time. it cant switch into icy wind but icy wind is an incredibly risky move to lock yourself into as keldeo anyways and isnt even that common; with a little prediction latios should be fine. Normal latias is essentially a worse latios with healing wish lol its exceedingly hard to justify on a team and normal latias isnt actually much of a consistent a switchin to thundurus or anything latios cant at all when you consider youre not gonna be at full most of the time if there are rocks up and you take life orb recoil and stuff (almost always). If you want something that can actually do that you should be using mega latias. If youre running normal latias you should always running healing wish or youre not getting the value out of its only real selling point over latios. I think normal latias should drop regardless but youre the ones who really insist on dropping mega latias so if that happens normal latias should definitely be ranked beneath it in B (or lower honestly) as its such a poor choice so much of the time.
 

Hilomilo

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Latios is already 3 whole ranks above Latias, which immediately invalidates your argument regarding Latias' viability compared to Latios' since their placements already make the distinction obvious. Regardless of that, both of the Lati twins have different things to bring to a team, as Latias is able to switch into a lot of the metagame's special attackers to more success, while Latias offers more offensive utility. Latias has way more to bring to the table than you're suggesting, and is no wear near deserving of a drop to B. Oh, and idk what metagame you're laddering in, but I've never seen Latias without recover or roost.
 
Latios is already 3 ranks above latias true, but that doesnt stop it from being almost 100% outclassed, which makes this point relevant. "it switches into special attackers better" is a poor argument. Sure, it might do that, but you fail to explain when this is actually relevant to making latias worth using over latios (any KO's it avoids). Here are a few calcs on mons latios/latias are commonly used to check.

252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 153-182 (51.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Thundurus Hidden Power Ice vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 133-159 (41.6 - 49.8%) -- 84.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 166-196 (55.5 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Icy Wind vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 144-170 (42.4 - 50.1%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 124-148 (41.4 - 49.4%) -- 84.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mega Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 108-128 (33.8 - 40.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

literally the only one i could find that actually shows a notable benefit to using latias is the mega manec calc, and mega manec is rare due to struggling so much in the current metagame, though it is worth considering that you would likely take at least some prior damage before that realistically and you also have life orb recoil to deal with. There isnt much of a basis to use latias for its bulk lol.

i find normal latias to be borderline unviable and almost never deserving of a slot on your team unless you have a really really good reason why you need healing wish. I stand by what i said before 100% about it being basically a worse latios with healing wish because thats literally what it is.
 

Martin

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You need to consider with how much consistency these things can check stuff, and Latias is simply a more consistent check to all of these Pokémon. Latios can be a switch in for Keldeo if you're desperate, sure, but realistically speaking it isn't doing so more than once per game on a consistent basis nowadays because a) both Specs Secret Sword and Specs Hydro Pump have a very good shot to 2HKO with SR damage (72.6%)* and b) you are probably running Specs or not carrying Roost at all, which means you can only come in one time assuming you don't get hit by Icy Wind. Honestly the only time I'd ever consider using LO Latios over Specs nowadays outside of 4-attacks is for Defog+3 attacks (and a really crappy Defogger at that), and Roost+Defog is so bad that it actually makes my head hurt both when I see it and when I use it. If you reach a point where you feel the need for both Defog and Roost on one set you might as well run Latias as at least it can come in on Keld, Defog on it and then still be able to Roost up if they anticipate that and stay in. And this is assuming that you run that iffy 72 HP variant as opposed to running enough bulk to actually take a hit. Like, my policy is to either a) run enough to take a specific hit or b) run an excess of bulk with an offensive benchmark so that I can do my job with more consistency if I find the extra firepower unnecessary. Both of these things are possibilities for Latias (I've already hyped up 152 HP/104 SpA for that specific Keldeo hit, but I've also run 168 HP/88 SpA (OHKOs Keldeo with Psychic) and 248 HP/8 SpA LO (same thing with SR) to emphasise what it has over Latios more just glancing over my past 4 Latias teams), and it provides incentive to run a range of team-specific spreads. What I like about Latias is it provides a lot more adaptable utility both due to it having one more usable move than Latios in Healing Wish and it having much more variability regarding what spreads it can run and what items it can opt to use (e.g. that Colbur set that I've seen used a little in the past), and this just means that it is extremely customisable to the types of teams that you are running it on. I'm not gonna go into too much depth, but I really did mean it when I said that the set is Draco+Psychic+Roost+Filler because you can run most of Latias' useful movepool in that last slot to meet the needs of it's team, which Latios just can't afford to do alongside Roost most of the time due to extra coverage being invariably better than Roost if you lack the extra bulk that Latias brings to the table.

*illustrating the notability of the bulk difference in the Keldeo matchup (how well/consistently do you switch in before considering recovery (or lack thereof)?)/proof that I didn't pull that number out of my ass:
Latios:
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Latios: 123-146 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 123-146 (41.1 - 48.8%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

(check by textbook definition due to it's higher speed+ability to OHKO, but if it's your only switch-in you're gonna have a hard time vs. it)

compared to this:

72 HP Latias
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 113-133 (35.4 - 41.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 72 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 107-126 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

152 HP Latias
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 152 HP / 0 Def Latias: 113-133 (33.3 - 39.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 152 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 107-126 (31.5 - 37.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

168 HP Latias
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Latias: 113-133 (32.9 - 38.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 168 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 107-126 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

248 HP Latias
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Latias: 113-133 (31.1 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 107-126 (29.4 - 34.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

(check by both textbook and practical definitions due to the ability to consistently come in on it)

And of course this is before considering that all of these spreads aside from 72 HP take 2 Icy Winds at least before SR while having very high survival rates with it up.
In a practical scenario (i.e. assuming that they aren't at absolutely full health) Latias is far more consistent at coming in against Keldeo. This is just an example, but the stuff that they check are checked on a more consistent basis, which is what really makes the bulk and "set requirements" (for lack of a better term) of Latias set her apart from her brother. You can throw around calcs of one taking the same hit from full all you want, doesn't change the fact that in a realistic match you aren't often going to be at absolute full, which means that when you are taking a very noticeably lower amount of damage from attacks (in the case of Keldeo, it is taking a full 5-10% less damage when you compare low roll to low roll) it is very clear that it is going to be a good check to something whereas Latios is not going to do so consistently, and this has really shown in the matches I've played using Latias.
 
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Bluwing

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A Rank -> S Rank:

the reason why i believe charizard x should rise to S rank is rather simple. bulky offense is the most popular way off playstyle which has settled in oras ou, this way off playstyle can be easely exploited by charizard x, due to it's great attack, defenses and setup move in dragon dance. ofc the standard dragon dance set can often be rather painless too play around, but the dragon dance + earthquake + healing wish support on the other hand is extremely hard to withstand as one off the few great checks to charizard x like heatran, landorus-t, tyranitar, azumarill and slowbro will get overwhelmed by this strategy as this strategy allows charizard x too both wallbreak and sweep maximizing it's potential. this is rather easy to achieve considering charizard x's natural bulk and how it can easely create momentum for itself on passive pokemon, forcing it's checks to whitle them down for then to sweep later, i definetly think charizard x deserves a spot in the s-rank for how destructing and devouring it can be to face, and how consistent it is as doing so.

edit: derp, thx starry lol
 
A+ Rank -> S Rank:

the reason why i believe charizard x should rise to S rank is rather simple. bulky offense is the most popular way off playstyle which has settled in oras ou, this way off playstyle can be easely exploited by charizard x, due to it's great attack, defenses and setup move in dragon dance. ofc the standard dragon dance set can often be rather painless too play around, but the dragon dance + earthquake + healing wish support on the other hand is extremely hard to withstand as one off the few great checks to charizard x like heatran, landorus-t, tyranitar, azumarill and slowbro will get overwhelmed by this strategy as this strategy allows charizard x too both wallbreak and sweep maximizing it's potential. this is rather easy to achieve considering charizard x's natural bulk and how it can easely create momentum for itself on passive pokemon, forcing it's checks to whitle them down for then to sweep later, i definetly think charizard x deserves a spot in the s-rank for how destructing and devouring it can be to face, and how consistent it is as doing so.
zard-x is A rank...
 
I'm not sure about S Rank, but I would definitely at least nominate Mega Charizard-X to A+ Rank.

It's such a ridiculously potent physical attacker that can beat most of its checks just through the sheer force of its attacks (AFAIK among all OU Pokémon, only Mega Slowbro and the bulkiest of Landorus-T avoid the 2HKO, and Alomomola and Quagsire among lower-tier Pokemon). Dragon Dance makes it a devastating sweeper and cleaner, it sits at a fantastic speed tier for a boosting sweeper and even better for a wallbreaker, and quite frankly it's almost impossible to switch in to. It also has an amazing offensive typing that provides almost perfect neutral coverage, great coverage moves to hit almost everything else, and provides a Burn immunity and both Water and Ice neutralities, allowing it to survive attacks with ease that would take down lesser Fire or Dragon types. Finally, if you do not carry one of its few reliable checks or counters, it is virtually impossible to switch into. Finally, it can pack Will-O-Wisp to cripple / hinder predicted switch-ins such as Landorus-T and Quagsire, allowing your team to deal with them much easier.

Its popularity has waned in recent months, and Landorus-T is certainly a popular check, but all it needs is its checks to be somewhat weakened, and one opening can easily allow it to cleave through an opposing team. It has very few flaws and only one very common, reliable check (that is vulnerable to burn at that). It is deserving of A+ Rank.
 
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Finchinator

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Zard-X is a bit of an oddball, tbh. I'm very much in agreement with the notion that it's one of the strongest overall attackers in the metagame w/ Tough Claws + base 130 attack in conjunction w/ a solid arsenal of moves to use (flare blitz, dragon claw, dragon dance, eq, roost, etc.).

The thing that really holds it back in my eyes is the fact that Zard-X isn't particularly easy to slap onto a team nowadays. If you think about it in perspective, the following factors hold Zard-X back in this regard:
  • Weakness to SR (4x before mega, 2x after mega)
  • Doesn't provide much defensive presence (you don't often see yourself saying "oh hey, my switch-in to "x" is my ZardX, unless it's the bulkier wisp variant which is fine and all, but not the threatening one or the set that would really bump it up to A+)
  • Requires a fair amount of support (it's not Volcarona bad in this regard, but it still requires hazard removal of some sort, for sure, and it appreciates either a lure to Tran (Surf Latios, HP Ground Serp, etc.) or dropping roost for EQ (which limits it a lot) while it also enjoys something to weaken LandoT, Slowbro, and even Azumarill)
I think the best way to prove that it's not quite worthy of A+ besides noting the fact that it's simply hard to use is putting things in perspective, comparing its viability to other megas in A+/A.

The following megas are in A+: Diancie, Lopunny, Medicham, and Scizor. The following megas are in A: Charizard-X, Heracross, and Sableye.

If you look at the A+ megas, you can see that there is a fair variety among them. However, they all are, in my opinion, top tier threats and deserving of being ranked in A+, higher than Zard-X. Mega-Diancie doesn't have much of a defensive presence, don't get me wrong, but it does provide teams with the ability to keep hazards off the field or at lease ease some pressure onto the opponent when it comes to their ability to set them. Add this to the fact that, off the bat, Diancie can threaten almost the whole tier and the fact that, after protect, it's quite fast (110) and you can see why Mega Diancie is comfortably a top tier threat. I'd say that with the 110 speed, the mixed breaking prowess, and the niche Diancie has (ability+typing), it is much easier to use than Zard-X and offers more utility than it, too. Mega Lopunny is seen as a really good measure against offensive teams, especially w/ ice punch to hit landot/chomp, but in general because it's fast and strong w/ prio fake out and sometimes quick attack. Given that it's so fast, revenge killing abilities that Lop has almost compensate for the lack of raw defensive presence, especially because it can get in and mega fairly easily w/ fake out, so given how convenient it is to use and how it makes up for a lot of its shortcomings in some way or another, it's also safe to say Lop is a top tier threat. You'll see Lop very often in the current metagame and it really doesn't requite any support, either, so I'd say that it comfortably outclasses Zard-X overall w/ the speed, sheer convenience, lack of need for support, etc. all going for it. Mega Medicham is pretty much impossible to counter, or at least close to it, with the only form of consistent counterplay being Mega Sab, Mew, Reuniclus, bold Clef, and Slowbro (assuming it lacks TPunch) and even then, all of these things have to stay healthy as they're going to take 40% or so from HJK, bar Sab whose immune ofc. Fake Out allows for a quick, convenient mega and it doesn't really need much support. Basically, Mega Medi hits so hard that it's hard for it not to be A+ and while something like Zard-X is quite strong as well, it lacks that strong, non-recoil STAB like HJK that Cham has and it has many more drawbacks, making Cham a top tier A+ thread and Zard-X a step or two behind. Lastly, Scizor is totally different than all of the others because it's primarily used for its defensive presence nowadays, seeing as it walls a significant portion of the metagame without sacrificing momentum and even with posing a threat as a bulky SD sweeper. Alternatively, it can be an offensive thread w/ the SD 3a set, but that's not the main reason it's A+. My big thing behind mega Scizor is that it can be slapped onto teams and work as a way to check fairies, dragons, etc. while it just sponges so many hits thanks to the bulk and u-turn to gain momentum right after, if all works out. Zard-X and mega scizor are in no ways comparable, but scizor is by far more common and seen as one of the best pokemon out there period right now, so I think that's enough to justify it being A+ while Zard's not in the picture.

Overall, Zard-X has the ability to break through and sweep teams with proper circumstances, but it needs that element of support and it is hard to fit into teams, so it falls behind these more convenient and off-the-bat effective pokemon. Something like Heracross, which has its mega in A, doesn't need much support, but it has a different shortcoming in terms of it being slow and, therefore, relegated mainly to be used as a breaker of stall/balance because it, too, is hard to counter and can still outpace the slower pokemon out there. Mega Sab is a unique case in general, so I won't discuss it in comparison here, but generally, A rank megas are a step below the top tier, A+ rank megas solely because they're harder or more situational to use despite still providing a lot of upside. Zard-X would be A+ or even S if it was solely based on the upside it presents - how strong it is and what it can do w/ that strength and the moves it has - but this isn't the full picture and, therefore Zard-X should be A, imo.
 
Zard-X is a bit of an oddball, tbh. I'm very much in agreement with the notion that it's one of the strongest overall attackers in the metagame w/ Tough Claws + base 130 attack in conjunction w/ a solid arsenal of moves to use (flare blitz, dragon claw, dragon dance, eq, roost, etc.).

The thing that really holds it back in my eyes is the fact that Zard-X isn't particularly easy to slap onto a team nowadays. If you think about it in perspective, the following factors hold Zard-X back in this regard:
  • Weakness to SR (4x before mega, 2x after mega)
  • Doesn't provide much defensive presence (you don't often see yourself saying "oh hey, my switch-in to "x" is my ZardX, unless it's the bulkier wisp variant which is fine and all, but not the threatening one or the set that would really bump it up to A+)
  • Requires a fair amount of support (it's not Volcarona bad in this regard, but it still requires hazard removal of some sort, for sure, and it appreciates either a lure to Tran (Surf Latios, HP Ground Serp, etc.) or dropping roost for EQ (which limits it a lot) while it also enjoys something to weaken LandoT, Slowbro, and even Azumarill)
I think the best way to prove that it's not quite worthy of A+ besides noting the fact that it's simply hard to use is putting things in perspective, comparing its viability to other megas in A+/A.

The following megas are in A+: Diancie, Lopunny, Medicham, and Scizor. The following megas are in A: Charizard-X, Heracross, and Sableye.

If you look at the A+ megas, you can see that there is a fair variety among them. However, they all are, in my opinion, top tier threats and deserving of being ranked in A+, higher than Zard-X. Mega-Diancie doesn't have much of a defensive presence, don't get me wrong, but it does provide teams with the ability to keep hazards off the field or at lease ease some pressure onto the opponent when it comes to their ability to set them. Add this to the fact that, off the bat, Diancie can threaten almost the whole tier and the fact that, after protect, it's quite fast (110) and you can see why Mega Diancie is comfortably a top tier threat. I'd say that with the 110 speed, the mixed breaking prowess, and the niche Diancie has (ability+typing), it is much easier to use than Zard-X and offers more utility than it, too. Mega Lopunny is seen as a really good measure against offensive teams, especially w/ ice punch to hit landot/chomp, but in general because it's fast and strong w/ prio fake out and sometimes quick attack. Given that it's so fast, revenge killing abilities that Lop has almost compensate for the lack of raw defensive presence, especially because it can get in and mega fairly easily w/ fake out, so given how convenient it is to use and how it makes up for a lot of its shortcomings in some way or another, it's also safe to say Lop is a top tier threat. You'll see Lop very often in the current metagame and it really doesn't requite any support, either, so I'd say that it comfortably outclasses Zard-X overall w/ the speed, sheer convenience, lack of need for support, etc. all going for it. Mega Medicham is pretty much impossible to counter, or at least close to it, with the only form of consistent counterplay being Mega Sab, Mew, Reuniclus, bold Clef, and Slowbro (assuming it lacks TPunch) and even then, all of these things have to stay healthy as they're going to take 40% or so from HJK, bar Sab whose immune ofc. Fake Out allows for a quick, convenient mega and it doesn't really need much support. Basically, Mega Medi hits so hard that it's hard for it not to be A+ and while something like Zard-X is quite strong as well, it lacks that strong, non-recoil STAB like HJK that Cham has and it has many more drawbacks, making Cham a top tier A+ thread and Zard-X a step or two behind. Lastly, Scizor is totally different than all of the others because it's primarily used for its defensive presence nowadays, seeing as it walls a significant portion of the metagame without sacrificing momentum and even with posing a threat as a bulky SD sweeper. Alternatively, it can be an offensive thread w/ the SD 3a set, but that's not the main reason it's A+. My big thing behind mega Scizor is that it can be slapped onto teams and work as a way to check fairies, dragons, etc. while it just sponges so many hits thanks to the bulk and u-turn to gain momentum right after, if all works out. Zard-X and mega scizor are in no ways comparable, but scizor is by far more common and seen as one of the best pokemon out there period right now, so I think that's enough to justify it being A+ while Zard's not in the picture.

Overall, Zard-X has the ability to break through and sweep teams with proper circumstances, but it needs that element of support and it is hard to fit into teams, so it falls behind these more convenient and off-the-bat effective pokemon. Something like Heracross, which has its mega in A, doesn't need much support, but it has a different shortcoming in terms of it being slow and, therefore, relegated mainly to be used as a breaker of stall/balance because it, too, is hard to counter and can still outpace the slower pokemon out there. Mega Sab is a unique case in general, so I won't discuss it in comparison here, but generally, A rank megas are a step below the top tier, A+ rank megas solely because they're harder or more situational to use despite still providing a lot of upside. Zard-X would be A+ or even S if it was solely based on the upside it presents - how strong it is and what it can do w/ that strength and the moves it has - but this isn't the full picture and, therefore Zard-X should be A, imo.
I do get that an SR weakness and a couple of common checks hold Zard-X back somewhat, but I still maintain my position that it is a top-tier A+ threat. For example, while comparing it to Mega Diancie, note that unlike the fairy type, Mega Charizard does not require Protect to ensure a safe Mega Evolution - a definite advantage. Mega Diancie has a lot going for it, but the low speed pre-mega, horrible bulk post-mega, and weakness to common attacking types absolutely force it to run protect if it wants any chance of mega evolving safely against balanced- / hyper-offensive teams. Charizard is pretty fast pre-mega and gains bulk upon mega evolving, and its ability to force mindgames pre-mega because of its twin Mega Evolutions (which each have different counters and checks) really lets it scare out a lot of Pokemon and allows a safe Mega Evolution that Mega Diancie lacks. I'm not trying to bring down Diancie, so much as show what Mega Zard X has going for it, that the fairy does not.

I think Charizard's access to two mega evolutions is perhaps one of its greatest assets too, as the mindgames aspect can be played very effectively. Another one, of course, is that Mega Zard X is far more versatile than perhaps any other Fire type aside from Heatran. Will-O-Wisp sets can easily lure out ZX's usual counters and cripple them - Landorus-T, Quagsire, and Azumarill are all crippled by a burn, while buffing his impressive physical bulk to boot, and allow his offensive prowess to clean up nicely later in the match.

While an SR weakness can be problematic, I think basically every serious team has at least one spinner / defogger regardless of whether they have Charizard in the wings or not. A weakness to SR is not the viability-ruining trait it was in DP, at most it just forces the user to play a tad more carefully until they have their hazard remover in play.

I'm not saying it doesn't have its faults, but I'm not nominating it for S-rank. I firmly believe he has the strengths to be an A+ threat.
 

Finchinator

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I do get that an SR weakness and a couple of common checks hold Zard-X back somewhat, but I still maintain my position that it is a top-tier A+ threat. For example, while comparing it to Mega Diancie, note that unlike the fairy type, Mega Charizard does not require Protect to ensure a safe Mega Evolution - a definite advantage. Mega Diancie has a lot going for it, but the low speed pre-mega, horrible bulk post-mega, and weakness to common attacking types absolutely force it to run protect if it wants any chance of mega evolving safely against balanced- / hyper-offensive teams. Charizard is pretty fast pre-mega and gains bulk upon mega evolving, and its ability to force mindgames pre-mega because of its twin Mega Evolutions (which each have different counters and checks) really lets it scare out a lot of Pokemon and allows a safe Mega Evolution that Mega Diancie lacks. I'm not trying to bring down Diancie, so much as show what Mega Zard X has going for it, that the fairy does not.
While it is true that Diancie's need to use protect the first turn it's in almost all of the time is a hindrance to it, I don't think it puts that much of a dent into its overall viability and having protect also helps scouting (i.e: Scarf Lando-T or Jirachi come into it to RK it or force it out, protect scout for UTurn or STAB super effective move) and although that eases prediction next turn, one could argue, it's better than simply having to give up momentum altogether given that if you catch a u-turn, you get a free turn to attack. Charizard pre-mega is 4x weak to SR, frail on both sides, and in need of a safe turn. It's not like the upside for it is incredible when compared to Diancie, if it's present at all. I also want to point out that Diancie is often led with, so the deed is done early and it can control the hazard came (or at least provoke consistent pressure on hazard setters to predict correctly - albeit, that could end up costly) while leading Charizard might not be ideal given that it doesn't fair well vs many common rock setters and it doesn't have that safety blanked in protect, leaving it vulnerable.

I think Charizard's access to two mega evolutions is perhaps one of its greatest assets too, as the mindgames aspect can be played very effectively. Another one, of course, is that Mega Zard X is far more versatile than perhaps any other Fire type aside from Heatran. Will-O-Wisp sets can easily lure out ZX's usual counters and cripple them - Landorus-T, Quagsire, and Azumarill are all crippled by a burn, while buffing his impressive physical bulk to boot, and allow his offensive prowess to clean up nicely later in the match.
I disagree here because the only time Charizard-Y is really used in the current metagame is with Pursuit support and, even then, it's almost always limited to Tyranitar. Essentially, this only comes into play on a fraction of Charizard teams and oftentimes, one could even figure it out based on the structure of the team if you take a second out during team preview or see some sets revealed earlier in the game (i.e: if they have Ice Beam Tyranitar, it's probably going to be a Charizard-X team because Charizard-X appreciates Landorus-T being removed a bit more while if it's a CB Tar, then it's more likely to be a Zard-Y team as CB Tar+Zard-Y is often used as a core to break through bulkier builds).

Additionally, the bulky Wisp variant of Charizard-X is a nice set and it can cripple many things that normally switch in without considering the possibility of being burnt, but it lacks the same offensive firepower (literally and figuratively) that the DD variants have and, therefore, it gains many more checks, counters, etc. -- it also gains defensive presence, but it is much less reliable defensively than a lot of the alternatives and the bulky set simply doesn't do much for Zard-X's case for A+ when compared to the offensive set. Moreover, I don't see how this does much of anything for the case of Zard-X to goto A+ seeing as its "versatility" is essentially two sets with totally different goals and the switch-off of EQ/Roost on DD sets - which is good for the initial surprise factor and crippling things - but the second set simply isn't that great overall.

While an SR weakness can be problematic, I think basically every serious team has at least one spinner / defogger regardless of whether they have Charizard in the wings or not. A weakness to SR is not the viability-ruining trait it was in DP, at most it just forces the user to play a tad more carefully until they have their hazard remover in play.

I'm not saying it doesn't have its faults, but I'm not nominating it for S-rank. I firmly believe he has the strengths to be an A+ threat.
I don't think every team absolutely has to run hazard removal in the modern day, but I would say that a majority of them do and that's helpful for Charizard-X's case, but the fact of the matter is pokemon like the aforementioned A+ megas and other top tier threats don't have to rely on those hazards being removed by the removers - they can come in freely of concern when it comes to entry hazards for the most part - ZardX still has to take the damage if hazards weren't removed or has to hesitate for significant portions of the game.

Overall, I still feel as if Charizard-X still isn't very easy to use, let alone build with. It does have lots of upside, don't get me wrong, but it is simply not a top-tier threat due to all of the shortcomings it has that I've mentioned and it's not as good as the A+ pokemon, so it should remain A.
 
I fully agree with Finch. I'm frankly shocked that their are posts advocating S rank for Zard X. I think there's a simple question that these people need to ask themselves: if Zard X is so good, why aren't more people using it? Why do Dancie, Scizor, Lopunny, Medicham and Sableye get more usage? None of these pokemon are S, so why would Zard X but ranked higher than all of them?

I think it's a pretty easy question to answer, in fact Finch basically already did. People don't use Zard X as much as those other megas because it is weak to rocks, is harder to fit on teams, and offers little in the way of defensive utility. Heroes and Con tries to brush aside the rocks weakness by pointing out that most teams have a form of hazard removal nowadays, meaning that no special teambuilding considerations are needed to support Zard X. This is a fair point, but it is not enough to explain away Zard X's flaws. Yes hazard removal is common, but that doesn't mean that getting rid of rocks is just something you can do anytime cost-free. A lot of the time you simply won't be able to remove rocks before Zard X comes in. Other times, you might be able to remove rocks, but in doing so you basically give a free turn to your opponent, since defog and rapid spin are extremely passive.

Zard X's next flaw is it's extreme weakness to residual damage in general. When I face Zard X my counterplay to it is quite often residual damage. Obviously stealth rocks are a big part of that, but even if rocks aren't up, I can quickly wear it down with flare blitz recoil, rocky helmet damage, rough skin damage, sandstorm, etc. That's a huge flaw in my opinion, and really prevents Zard X from being a consistent sweeper/wallbreaker to the same extent as some of the other top offensive megas like Lopunny or Medicham.

Obviously it's still a huge threat, and something that you'll always have to take into account when team building, but keep it A.
 
Charizard X: Blazing Hot or Slowly Burning Out
Charizard X is definitely not a S Ranked Pokemon but it's deserving to be A+ Ranked.
Charizard's ability to wallbreak and sweep boost its viablity and it has a plethora of pokemon it can set up on.
Currently I run a slightly bulkier set which includes the EV spread of 104 HP/ 220ATK / 184 SPE Jolly Natured. This is enough to outspeed scarfed Landorus-T after one DD. Here's a list of pokemon that Charizard X can set up on.
By the way this is calculations on the set stated above.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pokemon Showdown Calculator
Starmie (Utility) 4 SpA Starmie Scald vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 100-118 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- 69.4% chance to 3HKO
Rotom-W (Physically Defensive) 0 SpA Rotom-W Hydro Pump vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 142-168 (44.2 - 52.3%) -- 16.4% chance to 2HKO
M-Manectric (Special Attacker) 252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 87-102 (27.1 - 31.7%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Zapdos (Physically Defensive) 68 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 72-84 (22.4 - 26.1%) -- 10% chance to 4HKO
Bisharp (Swords Dance) 252 Atk Life Orb Bisharp Knock Off vs. 96 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard X: 122-146 (38 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Magnezone (Choice Scarf) 252 SpA Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 84-99 (26.1 - 30.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
Magnezone (Choice Specs) 252+ SpA Choice Specs Magnezone Thunderbolt vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 138-163 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 3.1% chance to 2HKO

Manaphy (Tail Glow + 3 Attacks) 252 SpA Manaphy Scald vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X: 126-148 (39.2 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(Charizard X can also set up on more passive pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Jirachi, Slowbro, Tangrowth and many more)

However Charizard X also has several crippling flaws that prevent it from being S Ranked or top tier A+ Ranked. These include a 4x weakness to stealth rocks and a 2x weakness after mega evolving. This cuts Charizard's HP in half before it even moves. Add this to recoil damge, sand damage, iron barb, rocky helmet and rough skin damge. This leads Charizards heavily worn down and quickly too.

I still believe Charizard X is a top threat. With tough claws and a great boosting move it has the capability of both wallbreaking and sweeping.

I hope Gen 7 treats Charizard right.

Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-445706269
Charizard for the win
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-445720883
Example of setting up and turning that L into a W
 
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