Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V5 (See Page 43 - Post #1063)

I agree that Baby Hoopa should rise to B+.

The obvious switchin to Hydreigon's Dragon-Dark is a Fairy. Here's how all the relevant Faries fare (hue) against Hydrei's favorite coverage, Flash Cannon.
Outspeed and 2HKO Clef (does anyone run max SpD Clef?)
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable: 196-232 (49.7 - 58.8%) -- 74.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Do we really need to calc Diancie?

Mega-Garde can switch in and force it out, but only once and it really won't like doing it
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 16 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gardevoir: 196-232 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Dark Pulse is a bit less but still a 2HKO

Band Azu with almost a 50-50 roll
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 172 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 153-181 (39.8 - 47.1%) -- 45.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

BD Azu gets 3HKOed after Sitrus, but now it can't BD and is a bit useless
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 92 HP / 0 SpD Azumarill: 153-181 (42 - 49.7%) -- 89.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Does AV Azu still exist? It takes it like a champ. Great. 1 Fairy switchin so far
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 240 HP / 16 SpD Assault Vest Azumarill: 101-119 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

Go home Altaria
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Altaria: 178-210 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'm going to cheat with Klefki because Specs Hydrei should be carrying Focus Miss imo. Probably (possibly?) get rekt Klefki
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 150-177 (47.1 - 55.6%) -- 77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Lol Toge. Good try.
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Togekiss: 226-268 (60.4 - 71.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Sylveon's down in UU complaining about Flash Cannon
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 204-240 (52.1 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Whimsicott in OU? It was on the VR so I'll calc but....
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Whimsicott: 320-378 (98.7 - 116.6%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

So all of 1 Fairy switches in (the rare and elusive AV Azu). So Fairies don't work. Let's try common SpDef tanks.
2HKO Fast Tran
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 181-214 (46.8 - 55.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Easily 1v1 Slow tran (Hydreigon doesn't care about burns too much, toxic kind of sucks though)
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 188+ SpD Heatran: 139-165 (36 - 42.7%) -- 94.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 59-70 (18.1 - 21.5%) -- possible 5HKO

2HKO (the somewhat rare) AV Torn-t with solid rolls after rocks
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 226-267 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 96 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Tornadus-T: 226-267 (69.9 - 82.6%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Life orb Torn dies to draco

(Badly) 1v1 Mega Lati
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Latias: 434-512 (119.2 - 140.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Mega Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hydreigon: 270-318 (83 - 97.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

RIP Ttar
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 180 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 428-508 (106.2 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Jirachi dyin
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Jirachi: 282-332 (69.8 - 82.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Shoutout to SpD Talon for being a very desperate check. Priority Roost is great, but if this is your check, you're about to have a bad day
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 174-205 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 91.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 280-331 (77.9 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

SpD Skarm is not cutting it
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 172-204 (51.4 - 61%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Chansey doesn't count. Stupid Chansey
252 SpA Choice Specs Hydreigon Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 194-230 (30.2 - 35.8%) -- 38.5% chance to 3HKO
I'll stop there because I'm really tired of calcs. To get the non-SpD tanks, I'll just leave the coverage calculator here. (Dragon, Dark, Steel, Fighting)
No Effect: 0
Not Very Effective: 0
Normal Effective: 363
Super Effective: 437

It has perfect coverage with Draco, Dark Pulse, and Flash Cannon with the exception of Bisharp but that gets smacked with the 4th move (Fire/Focus Blast). Don't forget about U-Turn being a possibility for the last move. Half of a Volt-Turn core is never bad and it can really help ease predictions.

Hydreigon also has above average bulk for something that packs such a big punch. I'm not calcing anything else, but Dragon typing + 92/90/90 lets it take on and kill somewhat weaker attackers Mega-Mane or strong resisted attacks like Manaphy lacking Ice Beam, etc. To move up the ranks of the VR, a mon has to match up decently against a lot of top tier threats. To show that Hydreigon can, here is a list of all of the mons Hydrei beats 1v1 from S to A-. Keep in mind that almost none of them switch in.
  • Defensive and Scarf Lando (let's pretend they wouldn't U-Turn out like any sane person)
  • Heatran
  • Keldeo not locked into Icy Wind or Secret Sword
  • Rotom-W
  • Ttar
  • All Excadrills barring flinch hax and Fire/Focus Miss
  • Mega-Hera is a guaranteed kill if Fire Blast, roll with Draco otherwise
  • All Jirachis barring hax (Again, who needs U-Turn?)
  • Manaphy is kind of iffy. Draco is a roll for the OHKO while Ice Beam 2HKOs. If it's not Ice Beam Mana then RIP Mana
  • Sableye is very iffy. Sableye spams recover until it's worn down or a Dark Pulse flinch. If it knocks off Specs after Dark Pulse, kill with Draco
  • Slowbro
  • Thundurus
  • Bisharp
  • It outspeeds and has a 50% OHKO for no investment modest Zard-Y. Does that exist?
  • Gliscor: See Sableye
  • Mega-Latias: See calcs
  • Mega-Meta at -1 speed or no Hammer Arm, former is common, latter not as much
  • Serperior
  • Skarmory
  • Starmie
  • Phys Def Tang dies, AV gets 3HKOd and 3HKOs with HP Ice. Fire Blast 2HKOs though
  • By virtue of typing and bulk, Volcanion
That's a pretty solid list.

All this is great, but talk is cheap. Since replays are always good, watch this WCoP replay I stumbled on. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-169219
Hydreigon has the opportunity to get a kill every time it comes it. That made strategizing for Starmaster really easy. The plan: 1. Get Hydreigon in on anything but Lati 2. Kill something
Basically, Scarf Lando U-Turn + Hydreigon won the match. Everything else was just along for the ride.

Now most noms require the "what changed for it" part. The thing is, I can't think of anything that has drastically changed for Hydreigon recently aside from the Hoopa ban but that was quite a while ago. I think it just hasn't been getting the love it deserves. Not many people think of Hydrei as their go-to dark attacker. My mind automatically goes to Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Weavile when I need a dark attacker and that trio is just so good that Hydreigon gets forgotten. So yeah. Nothing has changed except Hoopa being gone. IMO, people just forget about Hydreigon and this nom should help to put it back on the map.

Tl;dr: Hydreigon is really hard to switch in to, has passable bulk, and has been being slept on for a long time.

PS: Sorry if there are too many calcs and not enough substance. If this is delete bait, just PM me and I can add more.


Edit: Cune deserves A-. VinCune is a sweet new toy, RoarCune is a hilarious way to end CM wars, and RestTalk Cune makes Cune really hard to wear down because of status immunity (pseudo-Magic Gaurd anyone?) and full health recovery.
 
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Martin

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Azelf: C --> C+
I've spent a lot of time playing around with Azelf recently and I think that it is deserving of a rise. It's the only viable suicide lead in the current metagame (aside from maybe like Omastar (the only good suicide spiker imo 'cause it doesn't face any difficulties vs. either of MSab/MDiancie due to Shell Smash+special orientation) but it's much more niche and honestly if you ask someone to name a suicide lead they will say Azelf 90% of the time. Azelf is benefitting a lot from current meta trends and it is just really consistent at laying Stealth Rock in general. Hyper offense has shown to be reasonably dominant in the OLT qualifiers alongside a couple of other teams like that Double Defog squad that everyone's got a boner for atm, and it also showed dominance with Xtra Chirpz, which a lot of people are labelling as one of the best teams every made. I have just found it to be very consistent and don't feel that it is on the same level as the stuff in C is (barring maybe Jellicent, but idk maybe that might just be my fondness for Jellicent as a glue 'mon).

Magneton: C --> Unranked C- (see Bludz's post and my reply for strikethrough reference)
Realistically speaking you are never going to build a team that needs this dogshit 'mon. The arguments of it being better than Scarf Magnezone are both meaningless (you're saying it's better than a bad set, which doesn't really hold any weight at all) and partially flawed (in the role of trapping Magnezone is slightly better for it's ability to net the Volt Switch KO vs. SpD Skarm with very slightly less chip damage--large emphasis on very*--and it allows Magnezone to be more threatening in the long term vs. any team without Weavile/Torn-T/anything else Magneton is a shitty check to over Zone due the small damage increase racking up over multiple uses of Volt Switch) to the point that you can't realistically say it's any better or worse than Scarf Zone is. At the end of the day if you need Magneton to fill a role that Magnezone or another Electric- or Steel-type (e.g. Mega Man, ScarfRachi etc.) can't there are probably much bigger issues with your team that need fixing. Magneton's only niche comes from it's ability to outpace a tiny number of Pokémon alongside it's ability to trap, but it suffers from being painfully frail, irritatingly weak and not even good at trapping stuff due to it being easy to abuse combined with the fact that Skarmory just Roosts if it clicks Volt Switch when it's at more than about 70% (assuming Magneton gets a high roll in the first place) and because it allows it to be taken advantage of by a teammate due to how sinfully bad Electric-type locks are.
VS. SpD Careful
252 SpA Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 206-246 (61.6 - 73.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magneton Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Skarmory: 198-234 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

VS. SpD Impish (for reference, this variant is designed to beat max atk Mega Diancie while attaining more points in both defenses than a calm spread tailored for the Diancie hit)
252 SpA Magnezone Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 228-270 (68.2 - 80.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Magneton Volt Switch vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Skarmory: 216-254 (64.6 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
 
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bludz

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I don't agree with unranking Magneton. I think your argument about Scarf Magnezone is kinda weird. "It outclasses a bad set so it's bad" is not solid logic. In fact the reason that Scarf Zone is bad is because there's almost no reason to ever run it over Scarf Ton, due to how slow it is. Magneton is more effective as a cleaner/revenge killer due to its higher speed tier, and can still significantly weaken the things that it traps (which sometimes is all you need, not the KO).

I find the Volt Switch point moot because if your goal is to KO Skarm then just stay in and Tbolt. It's not like most of the teams with Skarm have something to set up and sweep you due to one turn of being choice locked. And if they do, this is something your team should have a contingency plan for anyway.

Obviously you shouldn't play Scarf Magneton like Zone because it really can't switch into Dracos and stuff. But it still actually traps things without being slow as balls, and the power difference is noticeable but doesn't stop Ferro / Zor etc from being whittled significantly
 

Martin

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I don't agree with unranking Magneton. I think your argument about Scarf Magnezone is kinda weird. "It outclasses a bad set so it's bad" is not solid logic. In fact the reason that Scarf Zone is bad is because there's almost no reason to ever run it over Scarf Ton, due to how slow it is. Magneton is more effective as a cleaner/revenge killer due to its higher speed tier, and can still significantly weaken the things that it traps (which sometimes is all you need, not the KO).

I find the Volt Switch point moot because if your goal is to KO Skarm then just stay in and Tbolt. It's not like most of the teams with Skarm have something to set up and sweep you due to one turn of being choice locked. And if they do, this is something your team should have a contingency plan for anyway.

Obviously you shouldn't play Scarf Magneton like Zone because it really can't switch into Dracos and stuff. But it still actually traps things without being slow as balls, and the power difference is noticeable but doesn't stop Ferro / Zor etc from being whittled significantly
I guess the argument was kinda weird in hindsight. I was kinda hesitant to make the nom in the first place because I knew my reasoning would be super weird (I mainly just posted for the Azelf nom tbh and just happened to remember Magneton was in C) and a lot of it was just me having a gut feeling of "I'd never realistically need to use this 'mon on a good team." I still think it's too high though and think that everything in C is noticably more consistent than it, so maybe a smaller nom like to C- or smth would have been more appropriate. Honestly I'm not big on most scarfers (Keld, Lando, Tar and Jirachi are honestly the only ones I'd ever realistically consider using outside of really team-specific options like Latios/Chomp and Celebi just due to how I play) so it may have skewed my opinion slightly, but I do think that Magneton to at least C- should be considered (I'll edit that into my post to make it more clear).
 

p2

Banned deucer.
strongly disagree with a magneton drop mostly because the speed tier is so insanely important. being able to outspeed weavile and friends means that you're always going to be able to apply pressure to them because they just can't get an attack off against magneton, especially in the case of low kick weavile or heat wave torn-t.

replay 1, magneton does what it's supposed to do and consistently hold back torn-t from going ham, which has a chance to win purely because jamvads entire team other than mag is slower than it (shoutouts hurricane lol!), obviously it needs to be played more conservatively but it could still find switchin opportunities, those being in 4x resisted attacks, which you would also try switch zone into. the only thing with turn28 is that the mag user has the momentum instead of the potential heat wave torn user, and therefore allows jam to fire off a vswitch because he's completely fine against the potential ground immune coming in. mag loses 6% hp, tang comes in and handles the elec immunity.

im lazy and apparently this was the only game ton was used in wcop and i can't find any other recent replays of it. but enjoy my rambling i guess

tl;dr its speed tier is that important and magneton should definitely stay at its current rank because of it

e: bludz kinda ninjad me when i was halfway through writing this post so w/e
 
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guys is there any reason at all to run mega pidgeot? is almost completely outclassed bt torn-t and uses your mega slot wich could be used by an otherwise better pokemon
 
guys is there any reason at all to run mega pidgeot? is almost completely outclassed bt torn-t and uses your mega slot wich could be used by an otherwise better pokemon
Tornadus-T can't set up

Pidgeot @ Pidgeotite
Ability: Keen Eye
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Refresh
- Work Up

This is the main set M-Pidg runs and the reason it got banned from UU,being able to take on massive walls and pressuring with one of the best offensive STABs + 30% chance to confuse and beat stuff that should stop you. Anyways there's a lot of niche mons in C rank that most of players won't ever think of running that in OU so... yeah.

BTW you should make those questions here http://www.smogon.com/forums/thread...-100-more-rules.3542207/page-168#post-7011884 . This is not the place for that kind of questions so your post (and mine I guess) will be removed.
 
Going on with that Mega Pidgeot discussion:
C --> C+ / B- :
Now that Stall is starting to grow really fast on usage and overall threatening, I think that Pidgeot-M deserves more recognition, it literally destroys most stalls with easy, and certain things that stop him are easily covered by support.
 

Gary

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Going on with that Mega Pidgeot discussion:
C --> C+ / B- :
Now that Stall is starting to grow really fast on usage and overall threatening, I think that Pidgeot-M deserves more recognition, it literally destroys most stalls with easy, and certain things that stop him are easily covered by support.
Eh nah there are so many better stallbreakers out there, and this set just straight loses to the most common stall build right now (Duggy+ Sableye) because it almost always runs Zapdos. Too much opporunity cost it's kind of a shit mega in all honesty.
 

Wob

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Going on with that Mega Pidgeot discussion:
C --> C+ / B- :
Now that Stall is starting to grow really fast on usage and overall threatening, I think that Pidgeot-M deserves more recognition, it literally destroys most stalls with easy, and certain things that stop him are easily covered by support.
Mega Pidgeot most certainly shouldn't rise. It's not that it's a bad mon, it's simply that it's a huge waste of a mega slot in the current metagame. If you need a special stallbreaker, then you're far better off using something like Mega Gardevoir. Not only does it have better power in general, but it's matchup is better against common walls like Mega Sableye, Clefable, Amoonguss, Mega-V and Defensive Landorus-T.
 

Finchinator

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Magneton shouldn't move in rank at all, in my opinion. It's a pretty shitty Pokemon with only one viable set, but that viable set hasn't changed in terms of viability.

Scarf Magneton's sole niche is the fact that it's quicker than Magnezone. Therefore, it can outpace: Adamant +1 (Mega) Gyarados, Adamant Lopunny, Weavile, Tornadus-T, Alakazam, +speed Talonflame, Starmie, Raikou, and Azelf. Scarf Magnezone is generally labeled as poor because it's so slow, so there's not much point in using it as a scarfer. Scarf Magneton partially remedies that in exchange for power and bulk.

One could argue that the overall usage of Magnezone has dropped a bit, and this might be true and people like ABR have reflected this in their building (prime example: he currently uses BB+Lefties on his Skarm on stall instead of Counter+SS), but I feel like the role of steel trapper + scarfer has remained the same with time. There are still those teams that you encounter once in a blue moon that appreciate the magnet pull support, but also want speed out of that slot and don't mind missing the OHKOs on Ferro and Scizor that Specs Magnezone gives. These are the teams that will use Scarf Magneton. If you want an example or two, I'm pretty sure Confide used one during OLT and Jamvad used one in WCOP against me.

The damage output difference between it and Scarf Magnezone is not noteworthy whatsoever because you're only using Scarf Magneton is you need the speed. If you do not need the extra speed, it's obviously not going to be used on your team. But if your team has nothing quicker than Torn-T or any of those other Pokemon I listed above, then odds are you're going to want to have something to RK them and that's when Scarf Magneton is your pick (I'm not a fan of either scarf mag atm, for the record, but objectively speaking there is a niche for Magneton, in my eyes).

Overall, Magneton has a very limited niche in the tier, as we have established, but that niche has not changed, for the better or worse, and I see no reason as to why it should move in rank.

I think this was already shot down sufficiently, but, just in case, Mega Pidgeot definitely shouldn't rise.

Honestly, there's very minimal reason to use this thing in general, but the argument presented doesn't do it any justice, either. Mega Pidgeot does not break the type of stall you alluded to at all because of the presence of Zapdos on those teams, which is basically a counter/strong check. Regardless of that argument, Mega Pidgeot just simply isn't very good and it wastes a mega slot. The appeal to use it is near 0. Tornadus-T is still one of the better pokemon in the tier and the few things that Mega Pidgeot has that merit using it over Tornadus-T often aren't what people prioritize in building and don't add up to compensating for the loss of the mega slot. Mega Pidgeot's ability to set-up is useless against any non-passive (stall) team because it's so frail and it was previously ranked C for the small merit it had for doing work against the handful of actually vulnerable stall teams, so I see no change. It might even be worse than before because the amount of stall teams carrying Zapdos has went up and, therefore, the proportion of unprepared stall teams have fell, but I haven't used Mega Pidgeot nearly enough in recent months to back that claim, so I'll merely argue that it shouldn't rise for the time being. I feel like any and all talk of Mega Pidgeot should be stopped for the time being as it's just not a very relevant pokemon and there's no reason to move it up.
 

Cofagrigus: C- --> C (maybe higher?)

Cofag has proven itself to be a good physical wall, as its ability to basically stop lots of physical attackers (such as mega lop, azu, mega cham, mega gross, etc) and to cripple potentially cripple with WoW is invaluable to have. Its natural physical bulk and its ability to spinblock is also very nice. Its also one of the few tspikes users that are actually somewhat viable in the tier, which is useful against grounded teams that need to get softened up for a sweeper late game. although its not very splashable on teams, i think it deserves to at least rise from C-

Replays of cofag in action:
 

Leftiez

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Cofagrigus: C- --> C (maybe higher?)

Cofag has proven itself to be a good physical wall, as its ability to basically stop lots of physical attackers (such as mega lop, azu, mega cham, mega gross, etc) and to cripple potentially cripple with WoW is invaluable to have. Its natural physical bulk and its ability to spinblock is also very nice. Its also one of the few tspikes users that are actually somewhat viable in the tier, which is useful against grounded teams that need to get softened up for a sweeper late game. although its not very splashable on teams, i think it deserves to at least rise from C-

Replays of cofag in action:
To be honest i'm being skeptical here, first of all you mentioned Cofagrigus as a Mega Lopunny / Medicham's check but considering that all these pokemon are in like 90% of the teams nowadays, why isn't it being used ? It's simply because of how its niches are pitiful or at least not good enough to be considered as viable, what i'm trying to explain is that Cofagrigus just can not adapt to ORAS OU metagame.

Toxic Spikes being mentioned here is just pointless considering the fact that most of teams just don't suffer against that, yes indeed Toxic Spikes are bad in the current metagame and that's the reason why no one uses it just because of how useless it is in most of case, as well as the role of spin blocker since defog is highly recommanded over rapid spin, then once again if we are considering the fact that it can be a decent spin blocker you should also mention the fact that there are actually only 2 viable rapid spinners in Starmie and Excadrill and that the latter is usually played with Tyranitar which means Cofagrigus can get pressured pretty easily while the other can fish for burn and make it totally unviable for what it was supposed to do (checking physical sweepers).

Let's also not forget that Cofagrigus needs to at least take one hard hit before checking these pokemon listed above implying that you might need to heal way more than you think since it barely can take 2 High Jump Kick from Lopunny or even Knock Off / Play Rough from Azumarill, and given the fact that his only viable recovery move is Pain Split it just means that you are trading off momentum most of time unlike pokemon like Slowbro / Tangrowth.

So yeah Cofagrigus might have some niches on paper but that's definitly different in battling and that's why i think it shouldn't move.
 
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This might be my second nomination ever on here, but I think Celibi is a little undervalued in B-, and would like to see it go to B. NastyPass is still terrifying with the right recipients, and it's defensive utility is fantastic. Even though it's slower than serperior, it's much bulkier, and pairs with heatran wonderfully. Also, people seem to have forgotten how to deal with it very well.
Here's a replay of it decimating half a (fairly poor, lower ladder maybe) team:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-452538952
 
I'm not sure what this 1100 rating replay is supposed to prove..

You also didn't use RP but simply passed it speed (why use RP if you're gonna pass speed?) your list is talking about an attack boost in addition, are you talking about a Meteor Mash boost? That's hardly something you can rely on, not to mention common mons like Rotom-W, Scizor, Slowbro and Ferrothorn wall the 3 attack set completely.

I'm actually fine with M-Meta being A, but I just don't think it's worthy of being A+ right now, and the RP set isn't viable at all for the above mentioned reason.

I feel like MM, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm is the only viable set atm, pursuit trapping is done better by Ttar, Scizor, Bisharp and Weavile (the latter only after something dies or with a U-Turn or Volt Switch.


It lacks the raw power of M-Cham and the speed and STAB coverage of M-Lop and as such doesn't deserve to be A+.
The thing is that mega meta is a bulkier wallbreaker. On top of that zen headbutt isn't needed that much. Mega meta also serves some nice defensive purposes too while lop and medicham don't. Mega meta also has the power to break past some things bolt beam mega medi doesn't like such as bulky psychics clef and mega sab. Mega meta also has the speed factor thAT mega medi doesn't and has the much better bulk and defensive typing that neither lop nor medi have.over all you're right though. You can't really throw a splashable mon onto a team and say "here is my mega medi counter" as where with mega metagross mega scizor can be thrown on a lot of teams easily. The thing with mega lop is that its coverage isn't that great and struggles with bulkier teams as where mega metagross has a nice match up against both bulky offense and balance which are a lot more common right now. Btw I do agree that rp mega meta is shit rn and that the 4 attacks set is amazing and maybe the only good set on mega metagross rn

B- -> B/B+

Dugtrio is a threat that was risen quite predominantly throughout the past month or so thanks to its ability to trap and likely KO threats on the opposing team which is vital on certain offense and most importantly stall teams. Easily taking out mons such as CB Tyranitar and Heatran can be very helpful and is the reason why most of its victims (mainly Heatran) are starting to run Air Ballon more often just so that they are not easily neutralized by Dugtrio. Sash Reversal with Screech also helps Duggy take out more bully targets such as Chansey and Manaphy which is also extremely helpful when Dugtrio is paired with stall. Its offensive support is quite effective in the current meta due to trapping being so hard to deal with at times, and I rise to either B or B+ seems warranted at this point (I would actually prefer B+ rn). Here are some replays with ABR using it quite effectively:

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-429463319
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-429763714


Also agree with Suicune rising to A-, Hydreigon to B+, and Terrakion moving down to B+. Everyone else stated my reasoning for this already so I wont be redundant in this case.
I agree with everything you said except for the terrakion drop. Choice band terrakion just breaks WAY too much right now. Pretty much everytime it comes in something dies lol. That offensive typing just has a lot going for it and can break through the bulkiest of teams. Its also a faster wallbreaker compared to some things like manaphy mega medicham kyurem black mega gardevoir and mega heracross. Yes I know that terrakion doesn't get many free switch ins on much but neither do a lot of the slower wallbreakers. Everything in OU that can tank a CC doesn't appreciate a choice band stone edge after rocks and sometimes is even 2 hit koed even if there aren't rocks up. Over all terrakion is a very underrated threat that i feel as if people sleep on
 
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Gary

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A+ ---> A: I know we just bumped this up but I think it was a bit too late to the party. Mega Sableye is running rampant at the moment and we all know how terrible it is versus those teams, and on top of that Mega Lopunny is definitely the go-to Fighting-type at the moment because of its Speed, and it has better matchup than Mega Medi in general. It's still a very strong wallbreaker but I've seen people prefer non mega wallbreakers + another Mega like Lop or Mega Sciz a lot recently. I just don't think it's on par with Mega Lop or Mega Scizor anymore.

A- ---> B+: This thing is just....never used. It's good and it really fucks up quite a few common builds, but that doesn't make up for the fact that it finds a really hard time being fit onto teams. It's just not that splashable, despite what it looks like on paper, as it faces so much competition from other wallbreakers and hole punchers, mainly Keldeo. Its SR weakness is a big factor tbh, because that Speed stat is a big problem for it so it suffers from being worn down very quickly. I've already made a major post about it a few pages back, so I don't want to reiterate it. Idk why people seem to have this huge boner for it but there is no question it just doesn't fit well with the other A-, because it's not relevant enough. I know usage is never a good argument, but when you're seeing plenty of the other Pokemon found in A- even stuff like Mega Lati or Mega Gard which are going out of favor on both ladder and tour matches and Volcanion is practically non-existent, that kind of says something. I honestly think Crawdaunt is even better than Volcanion, but I don't think dropping it to B would be a very popular opinion.

A- ---> B+: Please. Don't make me explain this again.
 

Hilomilo

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Mega Medicham is definitely due for a drop. A rise wasn't really expected and by the time it happened, the hype train had ended. Mega Cham is great at what it does, but isn't thriving as much as it needs to be right now to share a subrank with Mega Lopunny. Mega Lop is an overall better answer to Mega Sableye and can actually take a sucker punch from Bisharp, and if it doesn't have what it takes to find itself in S (don't worry, I don't think it does), then Mega Medicham has to go to A. Not too sure about Volcanion at the moment, but that rocks weakness is really hurting it atm and the consistent usage of Rotom-W has also always made me feel as though it's a bit underwhelming. As for Mega Latias, please just drop it. It's been up in A- for way too long, and discussion on the thing is still reflective of the current meta and should only prove its misplacement in A-.

On another note, it still feels like there are a few drops and rises that could occur. Hydreigon is criminally under ranked, and somehow didn't even make the slate with that beastly specs set it has, but I'm sure that to repeat what everyone's been saying wouldn't do much good considering the discussion for its rise alone should justify placement in B. Mega Manectric in B+ is really overselling the thing, especially considering that it hasn't adapted well to metagame trends in the even bigger rises in usage in Lando-T, Latios, and DD Mega Zard. There really isn't any necessary discussion for the drops of Mega Venusaur and Mega Slowbro (there's SO much valid discussion regarding these topics that it isn't even funny), and Mega Gardevoir and Gliscor oughta drop alongside Terrakion if that beast is gonna go down to B+ (but really, are we going to drop something that plows through bulkier builds so easily to the b ranks?).
 

Josh

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I feel like A- should be cleaned up. Mega Latias, Mega Gardevoir, Gliscor, and Volcanion are not on the same level as the other stuff there. The megas and volc have been explained, and Gliscor is cool and all but really it's just not as good or relevant as the rest of the stuff in A-. I'm on mobile and am not writing an essay on these though so consider dropping them to B+
 
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Slowbro A -> A-

I feel like this has been a long time coming but slowbro just isnt constraining, splashable, or influential enough to warrant being in A any longer. The role of "general physical wall" is in most cases done better by stuff like tangrowth and lando due to them being bulkier in the case of tangrowth, setting rocks and keeping up momentum in the case of lando, and more reliably checking grounds. Slowbro baits in ferrothorn which is never good as well as several of the dark types running rampant in ou atm. This is especially bad when you consider that if a slowbro build wants hazard removal, the most splashable one in the tier, latios, only compounds this dark weakness further. Megacham and megagross are both running thunder punch pretty often nowadays so its not really a good switchin to either of those even though theyre a couple of the biggest things slowbro is used to check. Mega lop, zardx (only if twave), and talon are pretty much the only things slowbro is reliably beating in the A ranks right now and i guess beating mega lop and zardx is good but i dont usually find it to be enough to justify a spot on my team for it. Its not much more threatening than other bulky cm water wincons which you should be prepping really well for anyways rn with the vincune epidemic going on.
 

Srn

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I never agreed with Mega medicham being in A+ in the first place, but if the reasoning for it dropping is the prevalence of mega sableye now, I disagree with that logic.
Contrary to popular belief, mega sableye isn't a great mega medi counter.

So let me explain myself: Mega sableye is already a pokemon with not many resistances, relying on natural bulk and wisp to check things, so it will be clicking recover a lot. Yes, we already know this, mega sableye is a passive af mon. Now combine that with this calc: 252 Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 80+ Def Mega Sableye: 96-114 (31.5 - 37.5%) -- 89.1% chance to 3HKO
you will see that, in a long drawn out battle with shit like lando-t to force msab in to prevent rocks and get u-turned on, and shit like clef in the back to discourage wisp and force recover, mega sableye will often be clicking recover 3 times or so before being able to force mega medi out safely each time.

That means mega medi has like 3 chances to ice punch freeze every time mega sab tries to stop it when its played well. Mega Sab is very shaky in the regard that it will need to expose itself to several ice punches, and honestly this can be applied to other checks too, such as reuni and physdef mew, but not to the same extent because reuni/mew can attack/wisp more safely and are generally less passive whereas mega sab at 50% wisping into a medi-->clef is a big ass choke.
 

Martin

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I think the sheer fact that Mega Sableye makes it really hard to click High Jump Kick and nuke something is more than enough reason to say it's a good stop to it, because being able to cockblock what is afaik the strongest attack in the game while still only taking ~1/3 from it's other moves is fucking massive
 
Honestly being 1/3 counters to one of the most insane and over the top Pokemon to ever exist in current OU is really insane, if you don't carry 252 252 Bold Clef, Phys D Slowbro, or M-Sableye expect one of your Pokemon to die once M-Cham gets a safe switch.
 
I want to nom Garchomp to A+.

Compare to everything in A rank, this thing is flat out better: more splashable, more versatile with both offensive and defensive sets, trolly speed tier, and it barely needs any support to function. Whatever role you give to Garchomp on your team, it will 99% of the time fulfil it: Offensive Rock set basically always get Rocks up, Offensive SD (and its variants like Endure, Sub, and the berries) guarantees to punch holes in fat teams, TankChomp guarantees chip damage on physical attackers, SpAtk LO sets trolls Lando, Tangrowth, Skarm, Amoon hard, etc. Chomp's checks and counters like clefable, ferrothorn, skarmory are all things you need to take into account when teambuilding anw. You very rarely have to go out of your way to help Chomp functions.

If anything, Chomp is even better than some of the A+ like MegaLop or MegaCham who actually needs specific team support to function. Chomp should be on the same
level of other A+ glues like Rotom-W, TTar, Heatran, etc.
 
Can someone explain to me what happened to Mega Gallade? It looks like it fell of a cliff in the VR.

It's been outclassed for awhile now, and I always have 4MSS issues when I use it, but still, geez...
 
there is basically zero reason to use mega gallade ever. like its not that bad by itself but 999 times out of 1000 you would be better off using mega medicham and keeping gallade on your team is actively making it worse. its just an incredibly niche option and stupid hard to justify on any serious team. you literally cant build a team where gallade is actually the better pick even if you try. it should drop further if anything.
 

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