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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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Reposting this for discussion, as well as to add that because of its almost non-existent offensive presence, it is set-up fodder for many things it is supposed to "wall".
Honestly it can be run with dual screens and lunar dance as a utility set. It is colossally bulky. It has trick room, twave, skill swap, and even psycho shift. You underrate its utility aspect and overestimate the effect lando had on OU.
Nah thesecondbest, the main draw to using cress was so that stall didnt get buttraped by landorus. With Lando gone and full stall being almost irrelevant thanks to Hoopa, there is no reason to use cress over mons like slowbro. The current metagame isnt particularly kind to it either, mons like weavile and Mega scizor are found on every second team, not to mention Hoopa eats it alive. Its great bulk doesnt mean much when a really shitty defensive typing leaves it open to Knock Off, U-turn and shadow ball, three of the most spammable moves, limiting switchin opportunity. The utility set you mentioned is completely outclassed by latias, who does the same thing but is much faster. With all of its main niches significantly worse and the only team style it fits on nigh-unviable, I see no reason for it to remain C+.
Nominating Blissey to drop to C-.
Unless I'm forgetting something, there's not a whole lot of reason to use Blissey over Chansey anymore with Landorus now gone. The only things it does now that I can think of is run a pretty mediocre lure set and is slightly less susceptible to knock off. It does beat sub Gengar if it has ice beam too I suppose, but that sacrifices one of the pink blobs precious moveslots. Overall, it just seems like it's back to "use chansey" status.
As far as Cress goes, it's about as useful to TR as P2 and Cofag, so it kinda makes sense for it to drop to their rank.
Unless I'm forgetting something, there's not a whole lot of reason to use Blissey over Chansey anymore with Landorus now gone. The only things it does now that I can think of is run a pretty mediocre lure set and is slightly less susceptible to knock off. It does beat sub Gengar if it has ice beam too I suppose, but that sacrifices one of the pink blobs precious moveslots. Overall, it just seems like it's back to "use chansey" status.
As far as Cress goes, it's about as useful to TR as P2 and Cofag, so it kinda makes sense for it to drop to their rank.
but why not raise P2 and Cofag to Cress's rank? offense is more prevalent than ever due to hoopa-u and TR excels against this archetype. P2 and Cofag are imo the best setters of TR, so they probably should move up.
Cress also is incredibly similar to Cofagrigus & Porygon2 in terms of the niche outside of a Trick Room. All of these 3 Pokemons are defensive pokemons able to check a variety of threat by virtue of a great bulk,Cresselia being the strongest towards bulk, and in Cofag/Porygon2's case, Mummy/Trace allowing them to fullfill this job pretty well.
I actually think Cofagrigus is the better one out of the 3, because he has a sets of tools that are relatively uncommon & useful, such as being a Ghost Type, its access to Toxic Spikes & Will O Wisp allows him to spread statut easily, and he's one of the better users of Hex for these reasons. Hex's strength when statused is good enough for Cofagrigus not to be too passive, and hurt relatively well some of its switchins.
Now for a nomination of my own:
Sharpedo: Unranked -> D/C-: Sharpedo is a pretty decent cleaner, Life Orb allows him to hit relatively hard, much like its mega, only this time, it's not a mega, and it's even frailer, but it's still worth a try. One of the better qualities of our fast shark is that offense & even balance lacks a solid switchin to Sharpedo, especially if you're planning to use it on a Spikes Stacking Offense. Its filler are various & all good, and give Sharpedo a bit of unpredictability: Zen Headbutt allows him to hit Keldeo very hard & then finish him with it, Ice Beam allows Shark to do better vs Tankchomp & a bunch of grass types & dragons ( mainly Tangrowth for grass types & Mega Alt for dragons ) , and Aqua Jet is a bit mediocre, but in case you really want to be able to kill Talonflame after rocks, i guess it's a possible option, Destiny Bond punishes very hard the few switchins balanced teams or offensive teams could have at their disposal to get rid of Sharpedo, depending of your partners, it can be handy.
Unlike its mega, if it's ever forced to switch in, it won't be stuck at a below average speed.( considering you want to run +Atk Sharp Mega )
It leads into one of the better niches of Sharpedo over its mega ( if it wasn't for him not being a mega ) : It can freely switches out w/out the problem of now being relatively slow compared to the standard 110 Speed that Sharp Mega can reach at the cost of being weaker.
Back in XY, it was ranked in C if i remember right. With the arrival of new megas in ORAS, a lot of threats that were now " outclassed " by their megas got either unranked, or downgraded to a very low placement, even if they could do things on their own. Overall, Sharpedo is an overlooked cleaner who can fits in some offensive teams or even in rain, and usually does its job decently & has an alright matchup against other offensive teams & balanced teams, even through its frailness can be annoying. As the metagame nowadays is much more offensive than defensive, Sharpedo has even more of a chance to shine. I'll accept even a D Ranking for now, but i believe he could go up to C at best.
i think i'll make a nom as well:
Rhyperior: C+ ---> B-, Zard X is on the rise and Rhy is an excellent check to it. +1 Dragon Claw cannot 2HKO Rhy at full health. with base 115/130 defense and resistances to fire, flying and an immunity to electric, it can check manectric, raikou, talonflame, heatran and thundy and thus makes for an excellent physical tank who is more than capable of hitting back. It's able to 2HKO offensive mega altaria and clef with a little bit of prior damage, as well as check birdspam which is still a thing although much less common than before. rhyperior has improved in this meta, and should move up.
Rhyperior: C+ ---> B-, Zard X is on the rise and Rhy is an excellent check to it. +1 Dragon Claw cannot 2HKO Rhy at full health. with base 115/130 defense and resistances to fire, flying and an immunity to electric, it can check manectric, raikou, talonflame, heatran and thundy and thus makes for an excellent physical tank who is more than capable of hitting back. It's able to 2HKO offensive mega altaria and clef with a little bit of prior damage, as well as check birdspam which is still a thing although much less common than before. rhyperior has improved in this meta, and should move up.
I'm seconding Sharpedo for sure. I legit assumed it was ranked somewhere, because the Life Orb set is indeed quite the good cleaner. In addition to what you mentioned, HP Fire is also a fair option, but Ferrothorn must be severly weakened in order for it to kill, as it barely is a 2HKO without investment. However, it can be better than taking 40% from Iron Barbs+Rocky Helmet+LO recoil when you use Crunch. It does suffer from being frail though, 70 / 40 / 40 in bulk is really bad. But it is not meant to take hits anyways as it is a late game cleaner, and some of the most common priority attacks, Ice Shard and Bullet Punch, do 50% or less (I am aware of Brave Bird and Extreme Speed being OHKO's or almost OHKO's).Cress also is incredibly similar to Cofagrigus & Porygon2 in terms of the niche outside of a Trick Room. All of these 3 Pokemons are defensive pokemons able to check a variety of threat by virtue of a great bulk,Cresselia being the strongest towards bulk, and in Cofag/Porygon2's case, Mummy/Trace allowing them to fullfill this job pretty well.
I actually think Cofagrigus is the better one out of the 3, because he has a sets of tools that are relatively uncommon & useful, such as being a Ghost Type, its access to Toxic Spikes & Will O Wisp allows him to spread statut easily, and he's one of the better users of Hex for these reasons. Hex's strength when statused is good enough for Cofagrigus not to be too passive, and hurt relatively well some of its switchins.
Now for a nomination of my own:
Sharpedo: Unranked -> D/C-: Sharpedo is a pretty decent cleaner, Life Orb allows him to hit relatively hard, much like its mega, only this time, it's not a mega, and it's even frailer, but it's still worth a try. One of the better qualities of our fast shark is that offense & even balance lacks a solid switchin to Sharpedo, especially if you're planning to use it on a Spikes Stacking Offense. Its filler are various & all good, and give Sharpedo a bit of unpredictability: Zen Headbutt allows him to hit Keldeo very hard & then finish him with it, Ice Beam allows Shark to do better vs Tankchomp & a bunch of grass types & dragons ( mainly Tangrowth for grass types & Mega Alt for dragons ) , and Aqua Jet is a bit mediocre, but in case you really want to be able to kill Talonflame after rocks, i guess it's a possible option, Destiny Bond punishes very hard the few switchins balanced teams or offensive teams could have at their disposal to get rid of Sharpedo, depending of your partners, it can be handy.
Unlike its mega, if it's ever forced to switch in, it won't be stuck at a below average speed.( considering you want to run +Atk Sharp Mega )
It leads into one of the better niches of Sharpedo over its mega ( if it wasn't for him not being a mega ) : It can freely switches out w/out the problem of now being relatively slow compared to the standard 110 Speed that Sharp Mega can reach at the cost of being weaker.
Back in XY, it was ranked in C if i remember right. With the arrival of new megas in ORAS, a lot of threats that were now " outclassed " by their megas got either unranked, or downgraded to a very low placement, even if they could do things on their own. Overall, Sharpedo is an overlooked cleaner who can fits in some offensive teams or even in rain, and usually does its job decently & has an alright matchup against other offensive teams & balanced teams, even through its frailness can be annoying. As the metagame nowadays is much more offensive than defensive, Sharpedo has even more of a chance to shine. I'll accept even a D Ranking for now, but i believe he could go up to C at best.
It really hasn't improved at all if anything is worse. It fights for the competition for a team slot and its only real role is a niche that beats Char-X in theory but in practice needs to get every single water and grass paired with Char-X out of the picture first before doing so. It's also not even an easy task when all of the waters like Manaphy, Azumarill, and Keldeo are extremely good, the two formers having the tools to eliminate fat waters that normally pivot into water moves for Rhyperior. Hippowdon has solely outshined it for a team slot for its recovery and the appeal of other grounds is more useful in the long run, even with the presence of Zard-X in place. If it was solely up to me I'd put it at C, its team slot is too specific on defensive minded teams to put it in the same boat as stuff such as Cobalion, Thundurus-T, Seismitoad, and every single mega who even past the whole opportunity cost argument for megas is way more worth investing into them for a team.
Cress should drop, not a whole lot to say.
Um, Mega Sharpedo has a decent amount of problems that is not including a teams necessity to remove a bunch of revenge killers and specific Pokemon. What saves it is a higher bulk which lets it tackle a couple of priority users that it's resistant to and Crunch. Sharpedo is insanely frail by comparison and has every single problem that Mega Sharpedo has as well, such as the whole tank chomp thing. I've seen a couple of these in action and well....it's not good. It's a subpar cleaner that puts way too much emphasis on taking out Klefki, priority users, tanks, walls, and so forth to even do its job and all the D stuff I can justify a team slot more than I would Sharpedo personally. Also being ranked in XY doesn't justify it being ranked in ORAS considering two different metas and even two entirely different ranking teams. It was dropped off when people realized it was bad, it should stay dropped.
I think Chansey isn't too good, and I think Blissey is even worse even more so with Landorus gone. Two cents on that.
I never post here, so excuse me if I did something wrong.
I was actually looking at the WCoP stats before this thread caught my eye. While there's a lot of things you can take away from those stats, the thing that stood out to me the most was Altaria. It's ranked #29 in usage (usage rate of 6.45%) with a win percentage of a meager 35%. That win percentage is actually the worst of the 35 most used pokemon and there's 4 other Mega's with more usage (Scizor, Charizard, Manectric and Sableye). Meanwhile, Mega Altaria resides in S-rank in these viability rankings, supposedly making it a better choice for teams than all but 2 other mons. While there are excuses like small sample size and huge competition for a mega slot, that doesn't add up. Thus, I propose to drop Mega Altaria from S-rank.
Mega Altaria is still a really good pokemon. There's no other mon with such a blend of power, bulk, typing and unpredictability. It's however severely let down by its speed and most importantly its inability to run more than 4 moves. 4MSS is a massive problem because Mega Altaria would really want to run DD / Roost / Return / Heal Bell / EQ / Fire Blast and maybe even Substitute or Cotton Guard. The move choice is heavily team dependent and it's with proper support that Mega Altaria really shines, but generally S-ranked mons are more splashable or less reliant on support. The first sentence in Mega Altaria's analysis is "Mega Altaria is an impressive anti-metagame threat", but right now the metagame seems quite prepared for Mega Altaria with lots of Hippowdon, Clefable, Scizor, Lando-T and Heatran (just the checks in the top 10 of WCoP usage). All of those can be considered checks to certain Mega Altaria sets and it's not uncommon to see multiple of those on 1 team, essentially containing Mega Altaria.
I'd rather rank Latios / Manaphy / Garchomp in S-rank as those have a bigger impact on the metagame right now imo.
I was actually looking at the WCoP stats before this thread caught my eye. While there's a lot of things you can take away from those stats, the thing that stood out to me the most was Altaria. It's ranked #29 in usage (usage rate of 6.45%) with a win percentage of a meager 35%. That win percentage is actually the worst of the 35 most used pokemon and there's 4 other Mega's with more usage (Scizor, Charizard, Manectric and Sableye). Meanwhile, Mega Altaria resides in S-rank in these viability rankings, supposedly making it a better choice for teams than all but 2 other mons. While there are excuses like small sample size and huge competition for a mega slot, that doesn't add up. Thus, I propose to drop Mega Altaria from S-rank.
Mega Altaria is still a really good pokemon. There's no other mon with such a blend of power, bulk, typing and unpredictability. It's however severely let down by its speed and most importantly its inability to run more than 4 moves. 4MSS is a massive problem because Mega Altaria would really want to run DD / Roost / Return / Heal Bell / EQ / Fire Blast and maybe even Substitute or Cotton Guard. The move choice is heavily team dependent and it's with proper support that Mega Altaria really shines, but generally S-ranked mons are more splashable or less reliant on support. The first sentence in Mega Altaria's analysis is "Mega Altaria is an impressive anti-metagame threat", but right now the metagame seems quite prepared for Mega Altaria with lots of Hippowdon, Clefable, Scizor, Lando-T and Heatran (just the checks in the top 10 of WCoP usage). All of those can be considered checks to certain Mega Altaria sets and it's not uncommon to see multiple of those on 1 team, essentially containing Mega Altaria.
I'd rather rank Latios / Manaphy / Garchomp in S-rank as those have a bigger impact on the metagame right now imo.
I will let people discuss this nom, but I just wanted to say that usage stats in WCoP don't justify drop/raises since then Hippo and Latios should be S Rank... Anyway, I don't think much has changed for it, as it doesn't mind being against offense and while it is probably the weakest of the current S ranks, I think it limits teambuilding a lot and still deserves the S Rank place.
Usage is not an argument. Usage and viabillity are certainly correlated but are by no means equal. Should Mega Manectric be suddenly ranked higher because it was used more in the tourney? Usage stats are influenced by a number of things. Support mons like Heatran, Latios, lando t, and Garchomp will always be higher in usage than most other mons simply because they are staples on commonly played teams, doesn't mean they should be S necessarily . Not every S rank pokemon is gonna fit every team especially if they are megas, and people also like trying different things and like building around different megas... I for example don't have Char x , Mega Altaria, and even Clefable on all of my OU teams. Viability is only influenced by how effective said pokemon is and how much of a limiter it is on team building, and certainly isn't based on on short term usage stats. How does Mega Altaria even have 4mss ? Every mon would appreciate running more than 4 moves, but saying it has 4 mss implies that its vast options are a limiter on its viability despite the fact that all have mega Altaria's viable 4 move combinations are very effective in the metagame and have situational checks. I can understand that with Metagross its a stronger argument because psychic steel stab is pretty awkward and forces you to have only 2 slots to deal with the various steel types. Even with that considered, with a set of ddance fire blast EQ and return its only walled by some Talon flames ( if rocks aren't up) and then mega venu which is a mega thats not gonna be fitting on every team. Sure, any other set does require more support and Altaria tends to run roost and then pack something like Magnezone, but it doesn't require any more support than say Char x needs to get rid of stuff like Hippo Quagsire and mega Altaria depending on what moveset its running. By this "4 mss logic" char x should also drop since it cant run dragon Dance SD dragon claw Roost flare blitz EQ and outrage and on the same set... Also , Clefable shouldn't be S because it cant run CM twave fireblast softboiled and moon blast on the same set... its a very flawed argument imo. All those checks to Mega Altaria u listed are extremely situational. Hippo is setup fodder for it, defensive Lando t cant break bulky offensive mega Altaria, and offensive ones get hit hard by +1 return, Heatran is bopped by EQ, and Clefable doesn't really take returns well , and Scizor doesn't switch into fire blast or cotton guard. The fact that the metagame is "prepared for it " with such shaky and unreliable checks tells you how centralizing Mega Altaria is, its a larger limiter on team building than most of stuff in A+. Latios, Manaphy, and Garchomp shouldn't be in S over mega alt because of "higher usage" when they have more exploitable flaws , especially the former 2. Mega Altaria can threaten all play styles with its offensive presence and speed after a boost, doesn't have any reliable check outside of a mega , and walls a large portion of the metagame, so nothing has changed for it other than the potential speed tie with Hoopa U.
I think you have a bit of a point, however just because people are losing with this thing doesn't make it bad. I don't knowwhich set is the most popular right now, but I would assume it was the DD set, so I will use that for this explanation.
So mega alt is S rank, people see that and they use it. Run up to it's smogon analysis, whats the top set? DD. Ok, slap a team together and we're good to go. However, because it's S rank, people will also prepare for it. So i'm sitting making a stall team, and realise that I don't want mega alt to run me through. So what do I do? I prepare for it, bring a few checks such as mega venu sp. def talon, or mega slowbro..
So now people are using this DD set, and everyone else is prepared for it. Because people are prepared, the DD set starts not winning so many games. So I'm sitting here playing stall against a mega alt user, and when he brings it in on something mega alt forces out, I switch to mega slowbro, thinking that it'll try to either use return or set up a DD. But when I come in, I see this animation of a white circle blasting at my bro, and bam, he's in the yellow because hyper voice did around 50%. Alt then proceeds to demolish my team, because I didn't prepare for special mega alt. I only prepared for DD, because I'm an elo hell shitter who builds teams that always have huge glaring holes in them that i never seem to be able to cover.
My point is this: People are prepared for mega alt, yes. Maybe it isn't winning so many games. But the reason it is ranked S isn't based on only one set. It's based on Mega Alt's versatility. "But Mr. James Grey! There are lots of versatile pokemon out there! Like gengar! He can run Icy Wind to beat gliscor! Or Tornadus! It can run heat wave to be scizor!" (Note: those are probably terrible examples but I digress) The difference between mega alt and other potentially versatile Pokemon is that almost all of Mega alt's checks to one set are beaten by another. Even with icy wind, gengar is still only 3hko'ing standard bulky mega scizor. And tornadus-t is still walled by zapdos, only getting a 4hko. (Again, probably bad examples, but you get my point.) Because of this, I believe Altaria should remain S, regardless of current w/l ratio.
I could see Mega Alt dropping. CharX is a better dragon dancer, and ever since he was moved to S, Alt's days were numbered. Altaria's support sets are a lot less threatening than the dance sets and don't add up to an S rank in my opinion.
MScizor can take mAlt's place in the S ranks. MScizor fills the role that mAlt used to fill: set up sweeper with great typing who could wall prevalent threats. With Bisarp & Weavile running through the meta, Scizor's typing is more useful defensively than mAlt's at the moment.
MScizor can take mAlt's place in the S ranks. MScizor fills the role that mAlt used to fill: set up sweeper with great typing who could wall prevalent threats. With Bisarp & Weavile running through the meta, Scizor's typing is more useful defensively than mAlt's at the moment.
Honestly, not really true... ZardX has problems setting up against certain mons and still fears status quite a bit name Paralysis and Toxic. It also has problems with SR and requires support to get rid of SR. On the flip side, MAlt can run HealBell/Refresh to stop status, can set up on the vast majority of the metagame due to its stellar defensive typing and stats and also has a great primary STAB option in Pixilate Return which has barely lower power than ZardX's FlareBlitz without the recoil. MAlt requires a lot less teamsupport, with Magnezone often tacked on, but Magnezone is a threat within itself and I find that it serves as a wincon with Scarf TBolt, but this isn't about Magnezone. MAlt is not an inferior DDancer since its slightly higher natural bulk and better defensive typing allow it to find more opportunities to set up as well as more support options to stop its sweep from getting stopped. As each Mega is tailored towards different teams it is unfair to compare them and say one is strictly better than the other. I would like to see a good argument for MScizor to S when MMetagross is not, since I feel like MMetagross performs better with less team support. That said, there is absolutely no reason for MScizor to be above MAlt, and MAlt is certainly not inferior to ZardX as a DDancer, it just fills different roles on a team.
Honestly I'd rather look at something like Smogon Tour's stats just because the sample size isn't so damn small. While yeah you're gonna get "higher quality" play in WCoP the difference isn't gonna be that huge overall and you have a much larger population of games to draw from which evens out anomalies and whatnot. I know it's more recent too but Altaria appeared in 20 games that we're drawing statistics from and I really don't think you can draw meaningful conclusions from that.
I definitely think the metagame has adapted to it in a big way and it isn't completely bopping people like it once was, but that doesn't mean it should drop from S rank. It still provides a ton of support on its own with the massive list of threats you can consider checked when you put it on your team. I find it hard to say that Latios, Garchomp or Manaphy are better pokemon in this metagame. They're all great but in Manaphy's case you're totally reliant on setting up and Latios is still dark type bait even if it does massive damage with Draco Meteor. Garchomp I think there's slightly more of an argument for to be honest simply because it actually has a bunch of viable routes you can go with it. But I think while similar to Altaria in the sense that teams are prepared for it, it's not similar in the sense that you aren't really prepping your team so that "you don't lose to Garchomp" because that kinda thing happens pretty naturally in building.
I definitely think the metagame has adapted to it in a big way and it isn't completely bopping people like it once was, but that doesn't mean it should drop from S rank. It still provides a ton of support on its own with the massive list of threats you can consider checked when you put it on your team. I find it hard to say that Latios, Garchomp or Manaphy are better pokemon in this metagame. They're all great but in Manaphy's case you're totally reliant on setting up and Latios is still dark type bait even if it does massive damage with Draco Meteor. Garchomp I think there's slightly more of an argument for to be honest simply because it actually has a bunch of viable routes you can go with it. But I think while similar to Altaria in the sense that teams are prepared for it, it's not similar in the sense that you aren't really prepping your team so that "you don't lose to Garchomp" because that kinda thing happens pretty naturally in building.
I don't particularly want to agonize over M-Alt's ranking but a few things bothered me above; these things were hard to see largely due to a lack of paragraphing BTW.
Usage can be used as part of an argument; ZoroDark 's nom used usage as a component of his argument that M-Alt is prepared for to an extent such that it's no longer metagame-defining. It's fine if you disagree with the proposition that M-Alt isn't "metagame defining" but let's not dive into the thought-terminating cliché that we're supposed to be blind to tournament performance, small sample size notwithstanding. Per the OP which y'all might want to take a gander at.
That being said, I don't think M-Alt should drop. It's one of the few mons that fits fairly comfortably on most teams regardless of play style (barring tr I guess) and it's still capable of running most of its sets rn.
K.
I'd like to move on to Cress and Blissey. I'm more comfortable with Blissey dropping than cress but both are dropping because too many things are able to set up on both/either or are able to 2HKO them outright. Cress has a few fun/situational moves but is an odd dual screener in most situations as it's too slow for HO/offense. Traditionally lunar dance was used as a " second chance" for either a physical or special wall on a semi Stall team; cress is suited for this role pretty well as it allows the user to play more aggressively with their boosting mon should you be in that position (think DDD, SD Sdef Talon, SD MZor, T-Glow Mana). It's an odd fit, though, and for offensive teams you're better off sticking to a faster healing wish mon.
I don't buy into the "Stall is dead" c-jerk as much as many but it's hard to deny that the noose is tightening around certain pivotal Stall mons (cress, bliss, Alo) partially because of Hoopa-U and its effect on the metagame. Someone (may have been AM ) pointed out in the Policy Review thread that the metagame's reaction to Hoopa-U has generally been to speed up and boost up very much rather than to hunker down with more defensive mons as was the case in the Greninja meta. This isn't fun for most of our stally wallies. :(
EDIT: 777 O_o
Usage can be used as part of an argument; ZoroDark 's nom used usage as a component of his argument that M-Alt is prepared for to an extent such that it's no longer metagame-defining. It's fine if you disagree with the proposition that M-Alt isn't "metagame defining" but let's not dive into the thought-terminating cliché that we're supposed to be blind to tournament performance, small sample size notwithstanding. Per the OP which y'all might want to take a gander at.
That being said, I don't think M-Alt should drop. It's one of the few mons that fits fairly comfortably on most teams regardless of play style (barring tr I guess) and it's still capable of running most of its sets rn.
K.
I'd like to move on to Cress and Blissey. I'm more comfortable with Blissey dropping than cress but both are dropping because too many things are able to set up on both/either or are able to 2HKO them outright. Cress has a few fun/situational moves but is an odd dual screener in most situations as it's too slow for HO/offense. Traditionally lunar dance was used as a " second chance" for either a physical or special wall on a semi Stall team; cress is suited for this role pretty well as it allows the user to play more aggressively with their boosting mon should you be in that position (think DDD, SD Sdef Talon, SD MZor, T-Glow Mana). It's an odd fit, though, and for offensive teams you're better off sticking to a faster healing wish mon.
I don't buy into the "Stall is dead" c-jerk as much as many but it's hard to deny that the noose is tightening around certain pivotal Stall mons (cress, bliss, Alo) partially because of Hoopa-U and its effect on the metagame. Someone (may have been AM ) pointed out in the Policy Review thread that the metagame's reaction to Hoopa-U has generally been to speed up and boost up very much rather than to hunker down with more defensive mons as was the case in the Greninja meta. This isn't fun for most of our stally wallies. :(
EDIT: 777 O_o
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Mega Altaria is S rank because of its DD set and its multiple sets it can run; DD Sweeper, Mix, Special, Support, Cotton Guard, Or Just a Pure Wall. and mega zard X and Mega Altaria can both run the DD set very well and are both great at it, the big difference between them is they typing and move pool, mega zard X may have the raw power and typing, but its typing is a huge double edge sword for it before and after it mega evolves, stealth rock a common thing in OU can destroy it even with roost, it limits zard X and pressures spinners/defoggers. also mega zard X cant support it self on sweeps outside of roost so if it got para'd in any way shape or form it would be forced out pressuring to be heal bell'd/aromatherapy or be crippled, while mega altaria can run heal bell for any status it encounters, and still limits team building, like u even said "most teams come prepared for it", that's people being limited to pokes they want to bring to handle mega altaria, and ofc mega zard as well tho. both these pokes do what they do phenomenally and both deserve their rank at S. and mega scizor switching places with mega alt? what does that have to do with mega alt dropping? mega scizor can move up while mega altaria is there, or without it being there, its irrelevant if it is up their for mega scizor; if it rises it rises, if it doesn't, it doesn't mega alt being in S rank doesn't change that.
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I also agree that scizor should be moved up to S for many reasons.
I don't know if altaria should've moved down but scizor should go up.
Why does everyone keep trying to argue things in and out of S rank? This is pointless, and nothing will even end up moving. I mean, look at the Clefable arguments: 3 pages wasted on nothing. Same with all of the noms for seemingly all of A+ to move to S rank. Why don't people understand that nothing is going to move before jumping on a bandwagon stating that they want something to change? Everything in A+ rank is pretty solid, and all of S rank has methods of getting past or crippling its checks and counters. There are no good reasons why anything should move into or out of S rank. We should actually focus our attention on things in the lower ranks which actually need work.
The problem with that is that usage is still blinded to viability due to correlation. If something is used alot in OU, chances are it's viable, and if something is not used alot, chances are its not so viable. However, something can be very viable and not be used alot and this is where using usage is not a good argument. Something like Terrakion is relatively viable in OU but also non existent usage wise, and part of the reason is because its not the best thing in the meta to use and is often chucked to the side for things like keldeo. So yea, in that scenario the viability and usage are relatively interchangeable but even then terrakion sits at a decent B+. But as you look at the S ranks and A+ ranks, the usage argument really falls apart because some mons are more naturally glue to teams , like heatran and lando t. This however does not mean that their higher usage will equal a raise in viability, because then Heatran should be S rank, and i think most of us can agree Heatran simply isn't on that level. Lando I was a broken threat and yet was only 19th in usage. Mega Manectric was used more than mega Altaria, so Mega Manectric is more viable? I think not. It has nothing to do with being blind to the tournament scene its just about not being blind to the various factors that affect usage trends. Zoro's argument was based on usage, then it was based on a win percentage of Mega Altaria teams which again could be influenced by outside factors like matchup and player skill so replays need to be provided to actually prove it was Mega Altaria's fault, then he used a 4mss argument that I find inapplicable to Mega Altaria, and then compared it to mons who have more exploitable flaws. At the end of the day, basing everything on a mon's viability in the meta ( how it functions versus all types of teams in practice and the limiter it places on team building) is more than sufficient because it removes any indicators that maybe misleading. IIRC Mega Scizor is the most used mega right now, does that mean thats its better than the current S ranks , I don't think so, and I'm pretty baffled as to why people somehow think Mega Scizor should be raised while Mega Altaria should drop when at least Mega Altaria can provide the defensive utility while also pressuring it's much smaller pool of checks and counters harder than Scizor can. With regards to being meta defining, i think its pretty obvious mega Altaria is very meta defining in that it limits team building on a noticeable extent and still has counterplay on whatever you throw at it. The argument the meta is prepared for it is not really a convincing in itself of a drop, as even things that were banned in the past forced the meta to prepare for it, such as Genesect forcing the use of Heatran on even more teams and still being able to play around it.
I wouldn't say Scizor's typing is more useful overall, their typing's usefulness depends on the team as they wall many of the same things but also handle different outstanding threats. Mega alt splits off in being able to walls things like Keldeo , Char y and x and Electric types, which is pretty useful.
Just putting this up for discussion because it is a lower rank pokemon that deserves to rise and nobody discussed it.Nominating Scizor for B+
Oh, look it's Mega Scizor for S booooo. No, it's regular Scizor boys, and I'm nominating it for a rise to B+! Scizor is a cool wallbreaker with Choice Band, and it can pick off weakened threats like Hoopa-U and Mega Aerodactyl with Bullet Punch. It has U-Turn to help gain momentum and is pretty strong with STAB. It also has coverage options like Superpower to hurt otherwise checks and counters, like Heatran. It can also Pursuit trap the Latis and other Psychic types, like Starmie or Hoopa-U. It also has pretty nice bulk invested, so it can take a hit or two. Choice Band isn't it's only set, either. It can run Life Orb for a bit less power, but the ability to change moves, and I've heard of Choice Scarf Scizor, but I've never used it. It could also run a bulky Defog set, although it isn't the greatest set. One of the pros to using normal Scizor over Mega Scizor is not taking up a mega slot, making room for other megas like Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard X. Scizor has some cons, though. It's weakness to Fire can heavily cripple it, as it can't do much to stuff like bulky Charizard X or Charizard Y. It's also pretty slow without a Scarf, although Bullet Punch somewhat mitigates this. It's bulk is okay, but not the greatest either, as it sometimes fails to take some powerful hits. It also faces competition from it's Mega Evolution. But, overall, Scizor is a pretty good pokemon in the current meta and definetely doesn't deserve B, it should rise to B+.
I agree with Cress to C for the reasons stated, it's passive as shit and while it is bulky, it does nothing but set up screens or TR, and being weak to moves like U-Turn or Knock Off isn't too great for a bulky mon.
Now for another nom of my own:
Mega Gallade is not a great mon right now. While it has a great 165 attack and good 110 speed, it faces competition from all the other megas. You might say "But why would I use Mega Medicham over this? It's slower and doesn't have Knock Off!" Well, Mega Gallade needs a Swords Dance boost to really boost up that attack, while Mega Medicham can just use Pure Power boosted attacks to blast everything away unboosted. Also, Mega Medicham and Mega Gallade are in different roles, as Mega Medicham is a wallbreaker who is good at wrecking balance, while Mega Gallade is a faster thing who can threaten offense a bit better. But Mega Gallade is in a crowded speed tier, so he has to rely on speed ties with many pokemon like Latios and Gengar. (Unless he has Shadow Sneak.) He faces competition from the other megas, while they are different than him, they are usually better due to their traits, like Mega Altaria's typing. Mega Gallade is pretty frail, especially on the physical side, so he has trouble setting up. Overall, Mega Gallade can be good, but he faces so much competition from the overall better megas and he needs a boost to be good too, and imo that overshadows the 110 speed and Knock Off. Mega Gallade should drop.
I'm rather indifferent on mega swampert, but it's worth noting that it really enjoys the relatively new popularity of weavile, tornadus, and kind of manectric. The shift towards more offensive teams also helps its case.
It doesn't fare super well against tank chomp, however, as it makes switching arund to stall rain turns even more effective by punishing waterfall mispredicts. The more offensive metagame is somewhat of a double-edged sword since megavolving (without swift swim) is fairly difficult, thus requiring more support. The fact that it often takes damage on this turn makes it easier to handle by altaria, for example. Venusaur is also just as popular atm, and it proves troublesome for almost all rain mons not named tornadus.
It doesn't fare super well against tank chomp, however, as it makes switching arund to stall rain turns even more effective by punishing waterfall mispredicts. The more offensive metagame is somewhat of a double-edged sword since megavolving (without swift swim) is fairly difficult, thus requiring more support. The fact that it often takes damage on this turn makes it easier to handle by altaria, for example. Venusaur is also just as popular atm, and it proves troublesome for almost all rain mons not named tornadus.
Lunar dance also restores pp, and hoopa beats balance more than it beats stall. Mandy beats hoopa and forms a nice core with cress. Weakness to shadow ball is irrelevant when twave psyshock beats gengar, and u-turn is fairly weak unless stab. I don't know if these niches are viable, but they certainly exist. It's better on trick room since it's faster than lati. I wouldn't really care since i don't play stall, but it is usable, and you overrate lando's presence.
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