Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Kutscher]

i would like to revive an old nomination Mega Pinsir to A, everybody know what pinsir can do: wallbreak really easy, OKOing or 2KOing almost every mon in the tier(bar some things like smarmory), but the main question is "what have changed to make it better?" well manectric and raikou loose some viability, and both are really dangerous to him, volcanion is the new tier's favorite and pinsir just check it(KO after rocks or at +2), keldeo and tornadus-t are rising in viability, at +2 pinsir can KO both with quick attack, bulky grasses like Amoongus and Tangrowth are rising in viability too, also the metagame is becoming more slow and bulk, the kind of metagame that pinsir can easily destroy, so things that are also rising like chansey doesn't bother pinsir, also tank chomp and hippodown are becoming less popular and pisnir apreciates bulky lando-t being the "go to"ground type, cause of hyper cutter doesn't giving a shit to intimitade(chomp would hurt pinsir, and hippo survive a +2 return)fighiting types like medicham and heracross are rising too, another good point to rise pinsir. the only things that i can see as arguments to not rising pinsir is because both mega latias and rotom-w rise recently, but pinsir can take both if you have a chance of weaking them somehow(i actually use moldbreaker eq pinsir to lure rotom-w, nobody realize that i don't "forgot to mega evolve in turn 1"), but i see to much good points to mega pisnir rise to A and just a few that hold it back. ps: sorry for my english, it's not my native language

edit: anyone have thoughts about my nomination of dropping empoleon?

double edit: just a list of the reasons i said above:
-Rise in Grasses(mega venu, amoonguss, tangrowth, breloom, chesgnaut);
-Rise in keldeo and torn-t;
-Drop of tankchomp and Hippo;
-Rise of bulky teams and bulky mons like chansey;
-Drop of eletrics(Manectric and Raikou);
-Rise of Fighting types(Medicham, Heracross, Gallade(?));
-Addition of Volcanion wich is checked by pisnir.

 

[Flarowak]

i would like to revive an old nomination Mega Pinsir to A, everybody know what pinsir can do: wallbreak really easy, OKOing or 2KOing almost every mon in the tier(bar some things like smarmory), but the main question is "what have changed to make it better?" well manectric and raikou loose some viability, and both are really dangerous to him, volcanion is the new tier's favorite and pinsir just check it(KO after rocks or at +2), keldeo and tornadus-t are rising in viability, at +2 pinsir can KO both with quick attack, bulky grasses like Amoongus and Tangrowth are rising in viability too, also the metagame is becoming more slow and bulk, the kind of metagame that pinsir can easily destroy, so things that are also rising like chansey doesn't bother pinsir, also tank chomp and hippodown are becoming less popular and pisnir apreciates bulky lando-t being the "go to"ground type, cause of hyper cutter doesn't giving a shit to intimitade(chomp would hurt pinsir, and hippo survive a +2 return)fighiting types like medicham and heracross are rising too, another good point to rise pinsir. the only things that i can see as arguments to not rising pinsir is because both mega latias and rotom-w rise recently, but pinsir can take both if you have a chance of weaking them somehow(i actually use moldbreaker eq pinsir to lure rotom-w, nobody realize that i don't "forgot to mega evolve in turn 1"), but i see to much good points to mega pisnir rise to A and just a few that hold it back. ps: sorry for my english, it's not my native language

edit: anyone have thoughts about my nomination of dropping empoleon?

I actually agree with Pinsir, that thing is really good right now. I've been using it a LOT as of late and it just rips through most walls really easily. With hazard support it doesn't have that hard of a time sweeping, especially once set up. +2 Pinsir is still pretty easy to make happen even with a lot of it's checks still being around, and when it is set up it has an even easier time getting things done. Even a lot of its checks and counters can't really switch into a return, especially if rocks are set up. Just some quick calcs:

-1 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manectric: 123-146 (43.7 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Raikou: 156-184 (48.5 - 57.3%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


The Only reliable check or switch in I've seen is defensive Zapdos, and tbh the defensive sets aren't theat great right now...Zapdos in general really. It also, as you mentioned earlier, handles a lot of mons that are rising in viability again such as medicham and those bulky grasses like Venusaur, Amoongus or Tangrowth. I've noticed Chesnaught and Breloom gaining momentum again too, who never ever want to be anywhere near pinsir.

 

[MANNAT]

Seconding the nominations for Jellicent, this thing is surprisingly good on hazard stacking teams and can really come through when you need it to quite well. It has a really solid defensive typing, especially coupled with water absorb, that allows it to wall a ton of the metagame's premier threats like keldeo, volc, tornt, tran, mega bro, normal bro, etc. all with a specially defensive set and can spread burns throughout the opposing team with ease in between having access to both scald and will-o-wisp. It offers a spinblocker for hazard stacking teams, status soreader, semi-stallbreaker, solid special tank, and an excellent water type check (bar azumarill) A lot of its other roles have been mentioned among other positives that make it a solid mon.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-367007611 - May be low ladder, but is vs a pretty solid team and shows how the dual status set can be a menace and just beat teams with how fat it is
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-367014997 - Jelli helps keep hazards up and puts in a ton of work again

 

[bludz]

Jellicent is receiving a lot of hype in this thread but its bulk is pretty meh and it really can't handle a lot of common wallbreakers honestly, Keldeo notwithstanding. It shines most in matchups against passive-ish balance teams that rely on defensive Starmie for hazard removal, but as you can tell these teams are pretty ass now. Water Absorb to block Volcanion is sorta neat but I mean yeah this thing is just so passive with very little offensive presence, spinblocking isn't always relevant etc. I feel like it's just getting too much love here idk. It could go to C but C+ is definitely pushing it.

Mega Gardevoir A -> A-
Not totally sure about this but man this mon has a lot of trouble these days I think. Stall teams have basically adapted to it for the most part and that was known as its best matchup. While it may have a solid matchup against bulky offense on paper, the checks to it are extremely common these days. Mega Scizor and Jirachi particularly. While it does lack a lot of good switch-ins, it's soft checked by a fair number of mons and doesn't OHKO some of the things its supposed to threaten like Landorus-T which can U-turn out and put it into range for something else. Personally just feel that reasons to use this over Diancie are kinda slim where Diancie has a little more defensive utility in checking Torn and Talon better, the additional speed tier and mixed attacking makes it more of a threat in general since it has stronger neutral coverage off the bat and provides more utility for the team.

Gengar A -> A-
Also once reknowned for its ability to beat stall, it's gotten to the point where it struggles to do that as well. Okay well Mega Sableye has been around for a bit but now we are seeing more Pursuit trapping on stall and just in general really which makes Gengar's life way harder. Honestly still annoying as hell to switch into for a ton of teams but AV Torn is still popular and the Pursuit bait thing is just too real at the moment. It definitely has some advantages over other common wallbreakers but I feel like other ways to deal with Clefable have arisen over time anyway and that was one of its other main selling points.

 

[Ramses]

Mega Lopunny is a solid A+ mon, I don't see why some think it should drop. The argument that bulky teams rising equates to a Mega Lopunny drop is sorta flawed. Unlike a few other offensive breakers, Lopunny is in that spectrum where it actually has the ability to boost through Power-up Punch which tosses the notion of bulkier teams stopping it from putting in work out the window, while still maintaining stellar offense matchups. So it may not be the best A+ mon right now, but it still is one, it just has to adapt (like a lot of A+ mons have to at this point) which means we'll be seeing more PuP and Encore variants a lot more in an attempt to keep up with metagame trends, and it's not like you're using a subpar option if you opt one of those two, so A+ is just fine. Although there is a side of me that thinks it probably could get away with being A, would like more discussion, but if things like Thundy are still A+, how is Lopunny any different?

I kinda foresaw a proposition of Mega Gardevoir dropping, it just has a lot of issues these days. Its checks are just so prevalent on a bevy of teams that its overall effectiveness is negatively impacted and of course the fact that there's rarely an reason to use it over Mega Diancie, which is objectively the best offensive Fairy in the tier. It really was once known as the "destroyer of stall" since it's just so powerful, but as bludz said over the months stall has comfortably adapted to it to the point where it's not as out of control as it was before. This also applies to Gengar as well, except the ubiquity of Pursuit Trapping rather than many checks is it's biggest downfall.

Mega Pinsir is in a pretty weird position, right now is the best time for a rise to favorable, especially with the drop of Electric-types, but it's also a pretty bad time as well, idrk. Rotom-W is everywhere, Talonflame is everywhere, but Electric are declining along with hyper offense. I don't see what you mean about Fighting-types rising Mega Medicham and Heracross to an extent were always good, but that wasn't enough for it to rise and Grass-types were always popular as well. I honestly think A- is fine for it unless there's a major shift in its favor.

I use Jellicent. I like Jellicent. It's just not that good as people hype it to be. Sure, it checks Volcanion very well, but a lot of the time it just sits there and spams Scald which is a pathetic excuse for offensive presence. It's hype is pretty much a scramble for people to find good checks to Volcanion, which admittedly ranges from Mega Latias as an exemplary check and then you have more niche options. After the metagame stabilizes, we'd have a more accurate representation of whether or not the checks we ran to are viable enough beyond just checking Volcanion.

 

[Martin]

I hype Jellicent more than anyone else does and I'm in agreement with -Magic- and bludz on this. Like, I think it should have rose before Volcanion personally, with Volc being the cherry on the cake, but honestly it should go to C and no higher. Ultimately the key issue with Jellicent lies in the fact that, in order to fulfil its role to the fullest, it wants all of Wisp, Toxic, Hex, Scald, Recover and Taunt. It is one of a small number of cases of legitimate 4MSS, and unlike Greninja 4MSS or MMeta 4MSS it isn't a matter of chosing what you break and what you lose to. If it forgos Toxic, it doesn't really do much back to its switch-ins and can only beat Volcanion by PP stalling due to the Wisp and Scald immunity combined with the nonexistent BP of unboosted Hex. If it forgos Wisp, it can kiss its matchup versus Pursuit users goodbye. If it forgoes Taunt, its gonna have a hard time stallbreaking. Recently I've shifted to the opinion that Toxic is a necessity on it, and Dugtrio supoort+a hard counter to band Weavile are both necessities for Colbur variants without Wisp to ensure that you can take on Pursuit users consistently without losing Jellicent. As a result, builds are limited to Toxic+Recover+situational utility+attack+half a team just supporting it, and this is what I think holds it back. No amount of feeding on trends (namely Keldeo+Volcanion omnipresence) can change that fact, and as such my opinion is that Jellicent should rise to C and no higher.

Tl;dr: Its good enough to deserve a rise, but it needs lots of support to function and struggles with moveset issues—limiting how high it has the right to go.

 

[Baharoth]

I kinda foresaw a proposition of Mega Gardevoir dropping, it just has a lot of issues these days. Its checks are just so prevalent on a bevy of teams that its overall effectiveness is negatively impacted and of course the fact that there's rarely an reason to use it over Mega Diancie, which is objectively the best Fairy in the tier. It really was once known as the "destroyer of stall" since it's just so powerful, but as bludz said over the months stall has comfortably adapted to it to the point where it's not as out of control as it was before. This also applies to Gengar as well, except the ubiquity of Pursuit Trapping rather than many checks is it's biggest downfall.

Someone mind telling me how "Diancie is the objectively best fairy in the tier"? (i assume you mean offensive fairys since its certainly not better than the master of yellow magic himself right?)

I've read the this notion ever now and then through out the last year and i never really understood it. In terms of power Diancie is pathetic compared to Gardevoir resulting in the fact that pretty much every mon with halfway decent mixed bulk that isnt hit SE can easily wall it, starting with standard Clef over Hippo (not the standard smogon spread but its easy to adjust without much sacrifice), Mew, Cele, Slowking, AV Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Venusaur and pretty much every steel type in the tier (Tran/Ferro only depending on Diancies coverage). Its just so much easier to switch in to compared to Garde, especially considering that the likes of Skarm and Chansey dont have to worry about getting taunted and hence beeing screwed the next time they try to come in. Because of that its usually deadweight against stall and most balance teams, against offense the higher speed is nice sure, but about half the mons you will find on your average offense team are still faster and ohko or at least tie with it. Then there is this annoying fact that you have to carry protect around to even mega evolve safely limiting your coverage further and killing your momentum in many cases. I guess it can check a bunch of things like torn, talon, bisharp, keld etc but to be "the best fairy in the tier" there should be more to it i think?

 

[Gabidou99]

I'm ignorant about the metagame in general but I could see Mega Gardevoir dropping as well, while it's very good it just have trouble dealing with a lot of physical attacker because of its bad defense and just "decent" speed, and it generally need (a lot of) support to deal with offensive teams. It also face competition with other fairy types like Mega Diancie which also hurts it. And now of course Stall has adapted to it now which make her "job" as at destroying stall harder to pull off and I assume it was the main reason for it to be A. IMO these flaws and the fact it's just easy to check/counter in general are enough to make Mega Garde drop to A-.

I kinda foresaw a proposition of Mega Gardevoir dropping, it just has a lot of issues these days. Its checks are just so prevalent on a bevy of teams that its overall effectiveness is negatively impacted and of course the fact that there's rarely an reason to use it over Mega Diancie, which is objectively the best offensive Fairy in the tier. It really was once known as the "destroyer of stall" since it's just so powerful, but as bludz said over the months stall has comfortably adapted to it to the point where it's not as out of control as it was before. This also applies to Gengar as well, except the ubiquity of Pursuit Trapping rather than many checks is it's biggest downfall.

There definitely is reasons to use Garde over Diancie. Well first Diancie doesn't have Pixelate Hyper voice and it doesn't have taunt (it has Magic Bounce but still). Garde also doesn't suffer from having god awful speed before mega evolving, unlike Diancie. 80 speed is not good indeed, but 50 speed? That's a problem. Mega Garde can already start to hit hard when unboosted, while I assume Diancie need to set up Calm Mind if it want to be an offensive threat.

 

[Srn]

Someone mind telling me how "Diancie is the objectively best fairy in the tier"? (i assume you mean offensive fairys since its certainly not better than the master of yellow magic himself right?)

I've read the this notion ever now and then through out the last year and i never really understood it. In terms of power Diancie is pathetic compared to Gardevoir resulting in the fact that pretty much every mon with halfway decent mixed bulk that isnt hit SE can easily wall it, starting with standard Clef over Hippo (not the standard smogon spread but its easy to adjust without much sacrifice), Mew, Cele, Slowking, AV Tangrowth, Amoonguss, Venusaur and pretty much every steel type in the tier (Tran/Ferro only depending on Diancies coverage). Its just so much easier to switch in to compared to Garde, especially considering that the likes of Skarm and Chansey dont have to worry about getting taunted and hence beeing screwed the next time they try to come in. Because of that its usually deadweight against stall and most balance teams, against offense the higher speed is nice sure, but about half the mons you will find on your average offense team are still faster and ohko or at least tie with it. Then there is this annoying fact that you have to carry protect around to even mega evolve safely limiting your coverage further and killing your momentum in many cases. I guess it can check a bunch of things like torn, talon, bisharp, keld etc but to be "the best fairy in the tier" there should be more to it i think?

I still think thunder wave clefable is objectively (offensively and defensively) the best fairy in the tier, and I realize we probably agree on that point, but boy are you downplaying diancie lmao.

First off, there's this really big misconception that mega gardevoir is some kind of god-like nuke. In reality, it's just strong enough to 2hko bulky shit, making it a solid wallbreaker with good fairy STAB. It doesn't OHKO shit like mega medi and char-y do (the real god-like nukes) with no sweat. But let's show a comparison of damage for now:
232 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
224 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Mew: 132-156 (32.6 - 38.6%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(bad mew spread, ik, but that's what calc had+too lazy to change it)

Yeah, you're right, mega gardevoir's way stronger, but as far as mixed coverage goes, a psyshock from garde is quite a bit weaker than diancie's diamond storm:
32 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 174-205 (44.1 - 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
232 SpA Mega Gardevoir Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 162-192 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

It's funny that you mention mons such as mew, celebi, and slowking though, all of them can run enough sdef to quite comfortably avoid the 2hko from hyper voice, necessitating taunt to break them. Against things like chansey and skarm, taunt itself is a risky move when they can stoss or iron head, or if you attack predicting them to predict taunt, and if they predict that the could just roost/softboiled off the damage or set hazards/t-wave or toxic you. Stoss might not seem like much, but when garde has <300 hp and fails to even 3hko 100% of the time with psyshock, it has significant implications, especially when garde is your biggest player vs stall.

I dislike how you're looking at the stall matchup in a vacuum too. Implying that mega diancie is useless because every mon is at full health is just not how a stall matchup works. No wallbreaker is totally independent (and any that are we've banned lol see hoopa), and no wallbreaker would realistically be tasked with single-handedly dismantling such a potent playstyle. Both mega gardevoir and mega diancie need partners to chip and pressure shit like chansey, amoonguss, and skarmory, and when that happens, they can actually do shit. Mega gardevoir is stronger against stall than mega diancie that's for sure, but their damage output isn't that different.

What IS different is that mega diancie has a fucking 110 base speed, one of the biggest benchmarks in the tier, which is freaking fantastic. As you ever so conveniently stuffed in the last sentence yourself, mega diancie checks/revenge kills several key threats in the metagame like torn, talon, bisharp, keld, pinsir, mega latias, char-x/y, and garchomp; many of which are very difficult for offense to handle easily. Having an offensive check to all of them that can still maintain offensive pressure while still being able to pressure bulky shit with some offensive support is the reason mega diancie is solidly A+ and that mega garde is being nommed down to A-

I also think you're underestimating protect's utility. It makes your matchup vs mega lopunny far better, as the opponent must now play around protect to kill with hjk instead of outright revenge killing. Protect can scout the moves on shit like scarf rachi, scarf lando-t, scarf keldeo, scarf chomp (rarer), and even iron head scarf kyu-b (very rare lol), making it a little difficult to revenge kill as well. Limiting coverage is fair enough, mega diancie would appreciate epower, psyshock, rock polish, calm mind and all that jazz, but protect doesn't always kill your momentum. You say it kills momentum in "many cases," but in just as many cases it can gain you momentum as well.

For example, if you have a garchomp vs diancie turn 1 matchup and your opp has a mega scizor in the back, you could just mega evolve and hp fire turn one, getting you tons of momentum and a crucial kill early on. The presence of protect can both take and give momentum, and that all boils down to prediction. It's unfair and inaccurate to dismiss that it kills your momentum and leave it at that.

 

[Baharoth]

It's funny that you mention mons such as mew, celebi, and slowking though, all of them can run enough sdef to quite comfortably avoid the 2hko from hyper voice, necessitating taunt to break them. Against things like chansey and skarm, taunt itself is a risky move when they can stoss or iron head, or if you attack predicting them to predict taunt, and if they predict that the could just roost/softboiled off the damage or set hazards/t-wave or toxic you. Stoss might not seem like much, but when garde has <300 hp and fails to even 3hko 100% of the time with psyshock, it has significant implications, especially when garde is your biggest player vs stall.

Even with max sdef mew, cele and slowking can't switch into timid hypervoice after rocks without getting 2hkoed, wouldn't call that "comfortably". Not to mention that Garde can easily run modest if you don't care about speed ties.

I dislike how you're looking at the stall matchup in a vacuum too. Implying that mega diancie is useless because every mon is at full health is just not how a stall matchup works. No wallbreaker is totally independent (and any that are we've banned lol see hoopa), and no wallbreaker would realistically be tasked with single-handedly dismantling such a potent playstyle. Both mega gardevoir and mega diancie need partners to chip and pressure shit like chansey, amoonguss, and skarmory, and when that happens, they can actually do shit. Mega gardevoir is stronger against stall than mega diancie that's for sure, but their damage output isn't that different.

Useless was maybe a little overblown but the typical stall team will have 3 switch ins, you named them yourself. Even given the right team support Diancie will have a really, REALLY hard time breaking through all of them. If it was just 2 switch ins like in Gardes case ok, but breaking all 3, GL with that. And even if you manage to do that, it will require alot of team support for Diancie to get this done, all Garde usually needs to dismantle stall is healing wish to heal off that stoss damage and possible status.

Your right about protect, it can come in handy sometimes, especially against choice users. However, your Garchomp example isn't a good one imo as thats a really risky prediction to make (if chomp stays in and EQs your diancie is gone) and hp fire doesn't even ohko bulky mega scizor.

 

[Ajwf]

I think the issue is for Diancie, Stall so heavily overcompensates to cover for Mega Sableye that fairies not dedicated to breaking walls are just not going to see success. Amoongus, Chansey and Spdef Skarm being on the same team seems (and is) disgusting, but that's just kinda how things are right now.

I'm not really interested in where any of the fairies fall but diancie shouldn't be hedging bets on beating stall.

 

[Gary]

Even with max sdef mew, cele and slowking can't switch into timid hypervoice after rocks without getting 2hkoed, wouldn't call that "comfortably". Not to mention that Garde can easily run modest if you don't care about speed ties.



Useless was maybe a little overblown but the typical stall team will have 3 switch ins, you named them yourself. Even given the right team support Diancie will have a really, REALLY hard time breaking through all of them. If it was just 2 switch ins like in Gardes case ok, but breaking all 3, GL with that. And even if you manage to do that, it will require alot of team support for Diancie to get this done, all Garde usually needs to dismantle stall is healing wish to heal off that stoss damage and possible status.

Your right about protect, it can come in handy sometimes, especially against choice users. However, your Garchomp example isn't a good one imo as thats a really risky prediction to make (if chomp stays in and EQs your diancie is gone) and hp fire doesn't even ohko bulky mega scizor.

Yeah Srn pretty much covered everything I wanted to say, but tbh I just don't really see how Mega Diancie's worse overall matchup against stall vs Mega Gards is really that significant tbh. Stall doesn't run the metagame to a point where a Pokemon becomes objectively worse because it struggles to break stall, if that were the case stall mons would be a LOT higher than they are now. Mega Gard may have a better matchup against stall teams and it's harder to switch into, but Mega Diancie is just so much more successful than Mega Gard in the current meta for a number of reason. As Srn said its Speed stat allows it to reliably check things like Chomper and the Zards which Mega Gard has to risk Speed typing with or just straight dying to a LO EQ from Chomp. It's also not walled by nearly every Steel-type because Earth Power is bad and you should always be running HP Fire, which means that the only Steel-types that really want to switch into Diancie are SpD Jirachi, Skarmory, AV Metagross, and I guess Mega Metagross but HP Fire still stings quite a bit. Regardless of whether or not HP Fire doesn't OHKO bulky Mega Scizor, it's still going to take enough to where it's going to be forced to Roost and it can't switch into it reliably again. Heatran takes a ton from Diamond Storm especially offensive variants. Also max Attack Mega Diancie is a perfectly viable option to take on its common Moonblast switch-ins such as Clef, Heatran, and Amoonguss, which opens the door for things like Keldeo.

Mega Gard's biggest selling point was how great it was at wallbreaking, but it's not even that great at doing that anymore when SpD Skarm, Rachi, and Mega Scizor are extremely common, and then its subpar Speed stat puts it behind a good portion of the metagame that it wants to be able to take on, such as Keldeo, Terrakion, Garchomp, and Speed tying with all the other base 100s. While its bulky on the special side its typing isn't nearly as useful defensively on Diancie's either, as it can still lose to things like Bisharp because of its Psychic-typing, while Diancie can take on Talon, Bish, Torn, Keldeo, Terrakion, Mega Pinsir, and Volcanion a LOT better. Mega Diancie is the better overall offensive Fairy in the current metagame because of its crucial Speed tier, better typing, and the ability to still hit pretty damn hard. Mega Gard is falling out of favor for other non mega wallbreakers that pack more defensive utility such as Volcanion, or better coverage such as Mega Medicham or even Mega Heracross.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I hate to be the first one to bring it up, since I'm probably going to get roasted. So stay with me

How about we entertain the idea of Talonflame being S rank? With the introduction of Volcanion the metagames standard fire checks shifted - Heatran, Starmie, Slowbro ect. sunk in viability because of giving Volcanion wallbreaking abilities, and none of them safely switch into Volcanion. Alright, we saw a rise in Latios, Latias, Chansey while Heatran, Slowbro, Suicune and bulky grounds sunk. And in the current metagame Talonflames unpredictability means that it's harder than ever to switch into and reliably check.

Talonflame has always been just shy of S (aside from early XY) as rocks are it's biggest issue. However, Volcanion punishes rock setters - Hippo, ferrothorn, Clefable, bulky drill ect.

Entertain the idea - don't roast the messager

Edit: Poorly made post - let me return with some better arguments :)

 

[HailFall]

Stealth rocks are omnipresent as ever, sand is everywhere. Volc as a talon partner is also kind of bad because it loses to a lot of lando/chomp and is itself rocks weak,,, rlly not understanding the logic behind this. Nothing has really changed to make it better than it was before.

Also idk why you would call starmie a check to tflame when it gets murdered by bb

 

[Subjugator]

lmfao I made a post about Emboar a few weeks ago, I DEFINITELY think that it should not drop. I am a very experienced user of Emboar, and I really disagree. When you get to use it you will see that Emboar is a terrifying wallbreaker that even resisted Pokemon struggle to take a LO Reckless STAB Flare Blitz.
Not many Pokemon can switch into it at all. Crawdaunt and Azumarill? Wild Charge is definitely going to sting, and Flare Blitz is still going to deal some substantial damage. Ttar in no way counters Emboar, as Superpower will make quick work of it. Talonflame is hurt badly by Flare Blitz and Wild Charge. The list can go on and on, but it should not drop.


Things that you would think defeat Emboar will actually die on the switch-in due to Head Smash, such as Mega Alt and Gliscor. Emboar is a freakishly powerful attacker that is great in D Rank, let alone drop lol.

 

[AM]

Talonflame is more close to A than it is S these days with so many trends going against it.

We also need to not entertain every piece of garbage as having a niche just on the notion there is some reason to use it. Infernape sucks no matter how much people try to gas it up and emboar is basically an inferior version of an already bad and overrated mon. It is not a relevant mon and falls under the clutter of too much garbage that people want ranked cause it does one thing in a sort of non shit way but is still garbage to begin with. It shouldnt be ranked.

 

[Martin]

Speaking of irrelevant shitmons, I'd like to nominate for Umbreon to drop. Honestly it was hard to justify using even when it was still able to eat both of Hoopa-U's STABs, but nowadays I honestly can't think of a reason why I'd want to use this over Clefable who just does its job better due to its typing. Like, as far as I recall its niche lies in its ability to compress Cleric Clefable's utility and the cool resistance to Dark+Psychic coverage that Dark-types like Mandibuzz have, but with the only notable user of the combo gone it is just kinda impossible to justify why you'd use this on any serious stall team anymore. I've tried to use it on a few stall and semistall teams since the Hoopa-U ban, but it has felt like a liability more often than not due to how it exasperates defensive teams' weaknesses to nukes like Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross and stallbreakers like CM+MG Clefable, Manaphy and BU Talonflame (with or without Taunt) by being complete bait for them to switch in, potentially set up on and proceed to kill without really offering very much in return other than utility that Unaware Clef can already provide.

 

[jacob]

Speaking of irrelevant shitmons, I'd like to nominate for Umbreon to drop. Honestly it was hard to justify using even when it was still able to eat both of Hoopa-U's STABs, but nowadays I honestly can't think of a reason why I'd want to use this over Clefable who just does its job better due to its typing. Like, as far as I recall its niche lies in its ability to compress Cleric Clefable's utility and the cool resistance to Dark+Psychic coverage that Dark-types like Mandibuzz have, but with the only notable user of the combo gone it is just kinda impossible to justify why you'd use this on any serious stall team anymore. I've tried to use it on a few stall and semistall teams since the Hoopa-U ban, but it has felt like a liability more often than not due to how it exasperates defensive teams' weaknesses to nukes like Mega Medicham and Mega Heracross and stallbreakers like CM+MG Clefable, Manaphy and BU Talonflame (with or without Taunt) by being complete bait for them to switch in, potentially set up on and proceed to kill without really offering very much in return other than utility that Unaware Clef can already provide.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-ou-151292 Umbreons true niche, but for real it's a trash mon that's outclassed by clefable and chansey in basically everyway now that hoops is banned and should be unranked

 

[bludz]

Given 2 circumstances the ranking team is considering doing a mass cleanup or operation "drop a bunch of stuff" if you will.

The first circumstance is regarding some of the upper ranks where there's kind of a distinct difference in viability between mons in the same rank. Some difference is to be expected but there's a bigger gap than there should be. Consider the viability of Latios and Mega Diancie compared to Zard X and Thundurus for example. I suppose you can make an argument Zard should simply drop but Thund, Mega Meta and a few others are "too good" for A rank while still being distinctly worse than the majority of A+ mons, especially those at the top.

The other circumstances is the number of hardly viable things at the bottom of the rankings like Emboar, Chandelure, Meloetta and so on. If you know what you are doing you can make these Pokemon work but the same goes for a ton of unranked things to be quite honest. The solution isnt to rank everything that you can potentially use (given how bad some of the things you can actually make work are) but to eliminate the stuff that's actually dong and shouldn't be recommended. The thread is first and foremost a resource which should be giving an idea of what's viable and what's relevant in the current metagame. New players really shouldn't be seeing stuff like Chandelure on here since it represents no relevant aspect of the metagame. Experienced players can figure out for themselves what unranked mons are capable of being used on the right teams.

So the basic idea would be to cut out a lot of the stuff at the bottom, probably compress the C ranks and then drop things accordingly from the top down. Hopefully this would sort out the viability discrepancies within ranks at the top and help cut out some honestly pointless discussion regarding the viability of mons like Sylveon.

This plan has not been finalized or fully agreed upon yet but given the discussion that's occurring right now I thought I would inform you all that the ranking team is strongly considering this course of action.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

Great, because I have a massive post I've been working on throughout the day expressing exactly that and a lot of 'mons that need to drop and a few that need to rise. I'll be posting it after work. To get a feel for what everyone thinks. At the end of the day, I'm sure a vast majority of us can agree this bad boy needs a clean up.

 

[tigers jaw]

I've been wanting a mass clean-up of the lower ranks for a long, long time now. This comes as a welcome message from you guys. Thanks a lot.

One mon I feel needs defending, though, is Meloetta. I used it for the first time the other day, and I really think it deserves a rise instead of a drop. It was more effective than I though it would be, to be honest. I decided to use the AV set, and it's actually pretty sweet. Kinda turns the whole "wasting a move and turn" thing into a positive. Meloetta-A has fat SpDef making it a decent pivot, it switches into shit like Mega Ala, Latios, and Gengar, and after Relic Song, it becomes fast as shit and powerful, with good coverage between Knock/CC/Ice Punch. Nearly got round to using Specs, too, but I didn't have time.

I'd say try it out a bit more, before dropping it. I'll add replays later when I'm on my laptop.

 

[Ajwf]

Going to agree with tigers jaw here. I watch Storm Zone ladder quite a bit and he seems to use Meloetta as a pocket pick a lot. I'm fairly certain his set varies between LO and AV (seems like 90% LO though) and uses the same attacks as Tigers jaw mentioned. It isn't the most powerful mon in tier, but it is difficult for the opponent to decide what needs to come in against it. You can't really bring in a spdef wall and bringing in skarm gives meloetta a free knock off for his zone's setup.

I've always been of the belief Meloetta is probably better than the given rank but just incredibly difficult to use effectively. I don't know about rising, but definitely shouldn't see Meloetta fall off ranks here. From watching players who seem to understand how to use Meloetta (and trust me, Storm has used Meloetta way too much even in BW2), I'd probably take it over anything in C-.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

I've been wanting a mass clean-up of the lower ranks for a long, long time now. This comes as a welcome message from you guys. Thanks a lot.

One mon I feel needs defending, though, is Meloetta. I used it for the first time the other day, and I really think it deserves a rise instead of a drop. It was more effective than I though it would be, to be honest. I decided to use the AV set, and it's actually pretty sweet. Kinda turns the whole "wasting a move and turn" thing into a positive. Meloetta-A has fat SpDef making it a decent pivot, it switches into shit like Mega Ala, Latios, and Gengar, and after Relic Song, it becomes fast as shit and powerful, with good coverage between Knock/CC/Ice Punch. Nearly got round to using Specs, too, but I didn't have time.

I'd say try it out a bit more, before dropping it. I'll add replays later when I'm on my laptop.

As one of the people that pushed for Meloetta to be ranked in the first place, it most certainly does not need to rise. It shouldn't drop, that's for sure but I can't say it should rise. It's actually really strong and it has so many damn sets it's pretty awesome. SubCM is a force to be reckoned with, and any mixed set can be very troublesome in the right hands. It also has a marvelous typing for checking some key Pokemon however, it's not enough to kick it into the Cs, not yet at least. It most certainly should not drop out of D, especially when shit like Umbreon is ranked, but I don't think it should rise either.

 

[HailFall]

I've been wanting a mass clean-up of the lower ranks for a long, long time now. This comes as a welcome message from you guys. Thanks a lot.

One mon I feel needs defending, though, is Meloetta. I used it for the first time the other day, and I really think it deserves a rise instead of a drop. It was more effective than I though it would be, to be honest. I decided to use the AV set, and it's actually pretty sweet. Kinda turns the whole "wasting a move and turn" thing into a positive. Meloetta-A has fat SpDef making it a decent pivot, it switches into shit like Mega Ala, Latios, and Gengar, and after Relic Song, it becomes fast as shit and powerful, with good coverage between Knock/CC/Ice Punch. Nearly got round to using Specs, too, but I didn't have time.

I'd say try it out a bit more, before dropping it. I'll add replays later when I'm on my laptop.

i mean the thing is melo-p is basically entirely outclassed by mega lopunny which has fake out, a better ability, more speed,and doesnt have to get off a relic song each time it comes in. its just way too much work for too little reward. Especially when you consider damage from people sending stuff like rocky helm lando in on you in tandem with LO recoil. If its ranked it shouldnt be for this set.

 

[Ajwf]

In his defense, C- does currently look pretty garbage

I think Umbreon, Shuckle and Xatu should pretty much be instant-drops. Shuckle, I understand the niche it has but don't agree that the niche is worth. Defog is too easy to run to stop the SR/SW setup, Bisharp profits too much off a free +2 (especially if it's sucker punch bisharp), suicide mons are absolute garbage when Sableye can just cancel their entire viability and unless your other five mons come in with a ton of pressure, you're losing that set up.

I can't really speak on any of the D mons personally outside Krookodile, but I even think Krook's niche is non-existent right now. If someone has an argument for it, cool, but I was using Krook as a personal stop to Hoopa-U on stall. Without that niche, I think balance/stall can do better. Unless someone from offense comes to say something, he should probably drop out for now.

I have a friend who tells me Roserade is decent enough to be seen as independent of Amoongus. I for one am not a huge fan of amoongus right now just because it fails to take BD Azumarill. Roserade's Spdef set outspeeds Azumarill (Survives Aqua Jet) and kills it, also gets toxic spikes and so on. The thing is, other grass mons such as Celebi and speed Chesnaught will do the same thing (even down to hazard setting of some sort). It seems to be able to take Keldeo, but just not as safely (you need to run defense and whatnot).

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 240 HP / 56 Def Roserade: 135-160 (42 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Just minimum investment to survive there, rest into spdef.
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 240 HP / 196+ SpD Roserade: 148-175 (46.1 - 54.5%) -- 7.4% chance to 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Gengar is the one mon I could think of that Roserade is legitimately better against than Celebi and to say the least, it isn't by much.

I think Roserade's usefulness isn't just overshadowed by Amoongus, but now by Celebi. Unless you are seriously concerned about using toxic spikes, I don't think that Roserade has a good fit for any team right now. Pretty sure Roserade just needs to drop too.

While I still prefer Sylveon in some situations to Chansey (ignoring clefable, I think clef's cleric set is a waste of potential), Sylveon is overshadowed hard enough that people getting into the tier shouldn't really use Sylveon as a cleric. The benefits generally comes if you've got a lot of natural fight-weaks on a stall team (old heatran stall for example) or if you just get rough and dicked by some really strange sub user (mostly kyub, since sub kyub generally doesn't run iron head). The only other reason is not wanting to be the easiest switch of Bisharp's life and having a hate boner out for Mandibuzz packing taunt. Otherwise, you're 100% going to use chansey. Even the spec set takes a huge hit mostly due to inherent issues (speed) and the fact that Sable stall generally packs multiple ways to stop a fairy. Not only should it drop from C-, unless someone has some reason for a spec set viability in a volcanion meta, it should probably just drop completely out.

Blissey should definitely stay in C-. I'm actually kinda impressed with Blissey and would be tempted to say she's good enough for C, but I'm not going to push forward an argument there. All I'll say is T-bolt blissey really helps out for stall struggling with gengar/TornT (once you know no super power)/Thundy-i and tauntbreaker mandi. There's a lot of pressure on Chansey right now, mainly through knock off and exploiting general lack of offensive pressure. While blissey sure doesn't bring a lot of damage, she can mess with some plans to have an easy time on chansey.

The only other mon I'll speak to right now is Bronzong. I think Spdef skarm just does his job better and really I wouldn't be surprised if Zong's just been sitting there since Lando-i was still around. He's not as good as Cresselia for stall and you generally go skarm on your EQ block simply because you worry about the off chance of a mold breaker exca and Skarm can actually take a knock off. He trades slightly better Spdef for less recovery and being bisharp bait 100%. Skarm can at least take counter/taunt and try to stop bisharp. I'm pretty sure there's some things zong does better (he isn't as afraid of Magnezone, for example) but overall Zong isn't as effective vs Pinsir-m, vs Scizor-M, vs Landorus-t, or anything of the like. I think he takes Torn-T slightly better (knock off still hurts), destroys Diancie-M (most skarm sets won't beat diancie), and has an edge with latios. Elsewise, utility edge to skarm, recovery edge to skarm, damage edge generally to skarm, physical bulkiness to skarm. I think Bronzong should move to D-rank.