Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[SubMindRaikou]

I strongly disagree that Grass is on the same level as Ice. Unlike Ice, Grass has access to at least one amazing mega, is not weak to Stealth Rock, and is not weak to some of the most common priority moves in the metagame unless you count Ice Shard, which is easily walled by Mega Venusaur and Ferrothorn anyway. Unfortunately Ice is in a situation in which you would need to ban a quarter of the metagame to make it good. Grass, on the other hand, really only has one mon that completely steamrolls it: Mega Pinsir (notice I said "completely". I realize Grass has a tough time against other types and mons, but at least it has relatively reliable checks to those other threats). Yes, Grass has a shaky check in the Rotom-Mow set that Azelea mentioned, but Ice has a shaky check for Scizor too in Specs Walrein. And no one is going to say that Ice has much of a chance against Scizor even with that Walrein.

Grass may not be a top type with Mega Pinsir gone, or even a mid-range type, but it would have the opportunity to be much more viable than it currently is. Ice would stay at the bottom even if Scizorite were banned.

I'm not outright saying that Pinsirite needs to be banned. I just think that out of all the mons on the table right now, it's at least in the top 3 for pokemon that should be suspected. I do want it to be suspected, but only because it deserves to be put on the chopping block and judged by the community. If the community decides it should not be banned, then I won't have any objections and I'll be satisfied that it was at least put to the test.

Well for mega pinsir to be suspected it would have to arguably sweep 3 types, and having used bug a bit I could at least suggest some types that mega pinsir could easily sweep.

Now for me to consider a type as pretty much auto lose to one certain pokemon is when that type has only around 2 viable pokemon to stop said pokemon from obtaining a sweep.

First, as has already been mentioned, is fighting, which I feel has only two big answers to a +2 mega pinsir, cobalion and terrakion.

Cobalion pretty much only checks mega pinsir if its running focus sash or a lot of defense evs, since:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Cobalion: 300-354 (77.7 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Cobalion: 362-426 (93.7 - 110.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Cobalion: 302-356 (78.2 - 92.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252/240+ Cobalion was the most used physically defensive Cobalion that could take a hit from most mega pinsir, sitting at 4.8% of all Cobalion.
As you can see Mega Pinsir deals tons of damage even to defensive Cobalion, and that relies on it not having gotten prior damage done to it, which forces you to use something else as your lead unless:

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Terrakion: 211-250 (65.3 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Terrakion can be run as a scarf to check Mega Pinsir, while not countering it scarf Terrakion can force out a Mega Pinsir, though this is assuming no prior damage has been done to Terrakion.
I feel like Mega Pinsir forces fighting users to use one of those two sets, as its easy to sack something and bring in and set up Mega Pinsir to set up since it resists fighting 4x, and 65/120 bulk it can survive most SE non STAB hits once, but one swords dance is all it takes to let Mega Pinsir sweep, and after +2 nothing is surviving return or quick attack unless you have a focus sash available, which can be difficult due to the lack of hazard removal on fighting monotypes, and the relative ease of setting up one stealth rocks with shuckle or ferrothorn, and combine this with some shuckle carrying a mental herb (42.4% of all shuckle on bug monotypes) and keeping a sash intact is easier said than done.

Another monotype that arguably has a hard time with Mega Pinsir could be water, since +2 return or close combat/earthquake ohkos most water pokemon.
While water pokemon don't have any counters that switch into Mega Pinsir more than once, the biggest threat to Mega Pinsir on water monotypes is probably Rotom-W, who can either run a fast scarf spread to Will o Wisp or Volt Switch and chip away mega pinsir and defensive spreads who can tank a hit.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Rotom-W: 169-200 (55.5 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(This spread is 10.3% of Rotom-W)
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 91-108 (37.7 - 44.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
(The choice scarf spread, 16.2% of all Rotom-W)

The main saving grace of water monotypes is that scald and ice moves are everywhere and it has multiple ways of chipping Mega Pinsir, but once Mega Pinsir gets rolling it gets pretty hard to stop, especially with chip damage from the bug team and stealth rock support.

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 334-394 (84.7 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Mega Swampert Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 170-202 (62.7 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 100 HP / 0 Def Mega Swampert: 456-537 (124.5 - 146.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Lanturn: 298-351 (65.6 - 77.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
(Assuming Mega Pinsir chose CC over earthquake)

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mega Sharpedo: 258-304 (91.8 - 108.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Sharpedo: 390-460 (138.7 - 163.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Quagsire: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 79.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 120 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 412-486 (82.2 - 97%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 120 HP / 248+ Def Alomomola: 412-486 (82.2 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And Mega Pinsir can do this with a lot of other types who don't have pokemon to resist the Flying + Fighting/Ground coverage, as with sticky webs and stealth rocks it can outspeed and ohko a majority of the monotype metagame with very few pokemon switching into its moves.

However I'm not calling for an outright ban, as I still sit on the fence with a possible Mega Pinsir suspect/ban. In my experience using it Mega Pinsir almost felt like Mega Altaria or Mega Charizard in that after a few setup moves and it is ready to sweep teams with a bit of support from its teammates to set up stealth rocks. The main difference is that Mega Pinsir doesn't get a speed boost, and so knowing your calcs when something will out speed but get kod by quick attack is semi more important, but it still personally gave me the mindless click 2 win feel that the newly banned flying megas gave, as opposed to something like Mega Gyarados who feels like it needs it teammates a bit more since it can't actually set up on a majority of the metagame, but that's just my feelings toward Mega Pinsir, who if anything I am leaning towards no ban but I have yet to see all the arguments pro and anti ban.

 

[Neimenko]

We will be aiming for all bans in the future to be global rather than type-specific. I also disagree with the idea that type-specific bans are less complex than Speed Boost Blaziken would be: with Speed Boost Blaziken you'd have one outlier that has to be learned outside of the main banlist, whereas with type specific bans you had up to 18 separate whole banlists to memorise as well as the main banlist.
Whereas if we had a Speed Boost Blaziken ban it'd be relatively easy to remember if you saw a Blaziken that it must have blaze, I'm not sure how easy it would be to remember whether Damp Rock was allowed if your opponent's Goodra set up Rain Dance, given it was one of about seven separate bans we had and also a very uncommon occurance.

By removing type-specific bans where possible, we make the metagame far simpler, which both helps it become more smogon-esque and also lowers the entry barrier for new players.

Thanks for the answer. I didn't want to imply that it's more complex, but rather unecessary and unreasonable, while some type only bans in monotype do make sense to me. I understand that you want to make things simple, but shouldn't there be at least some exceptions? Fire is not gonna miss zardx, but ghost without Aegislash would be a pretty bad type, and I can't imagine electric without Zapdos. I just think that there should be some type only bans for types that would be severely nerfed if the specific mon gets banned.

 

[scpinion]

Thanks for the answer. I didn't want to imply that it's more complex, but rather unecessary and unreasonable, while some type only bans in monotype do make sense to me. I understand that you want to make things simple, but shouldn't there be at least some exceptions? Fire is not gonna miss zardx, but ghost without Aegislash would be a pretty bad type, and I can't imagine electric without Zapdos. I just think that there should be some type only bans for types that would be severely nerfed if the specific mon gets banned.

Aegislash is the exception as far as the Type-Only bans go. We do not want to create more b/c they are really complex bans, as DoW explained (quite nicely I might add!).

Our goal was to simplify the banlist by removing as many Type-Only bans as possible w/o laughing in the face of the current Tiering Philosophy. When considering the existing Type-Only bans we opted to sacrifice CharX Fire in order to keep Zapdos on Electric. This decision kept Flying in check and didn't needlessly nerf an underused type.

 

[Arash]

f̶u̶n̶ ̶f̶a̶c̶t̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶m̶e̶g̶a̶-̶p̶i̶n̶s̶i̶r̶,̶ ̶i̶t̶s̶ ̶f̶l̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶p̶r̶i̶o̶r̶i̶t̶y̶ ̶(̶e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶j̶o̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶n̶a̶t̶u̶r̶e̶)̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶a̶c̶t̶u̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ ̶s̶t̶r̶o̶n̶g̶e̶r̶ ̶t̶h̶a̶n̶ ̶C̶B̶ ̶t̶a̶l̶o̶n̶f̶l̶a̶m̶e̶'̶s̶ ̶(̶u̶n̶l̶e̶s̶s̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶c̶a̶l̶c̶u̶l̶a̶t̶o̶r̶ ̶i̶s̶ ̶l̶y̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶m̶e̶)̶:̶
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̶2̶5̶2̶ ̶A̶t̶k̶ ̶A̶e̶r̶i̶l̶a̶t̶e̶ ̶M̶e̶g̶a̶ ̶P̶i̶n̶s̶i̶r̶ ̶Q̶u̶i̶c̶k̶ ̶A̶t̶t̶a̶c̶k̶ ̶v̶s̶.̶ ̶2̶5̶2̶ ̶H̶P̶ ̶/̶ ̶1̶8̶0̶+̶ ̶D̶e̶f̶ ̶R̶o̶t̶o̶m̶-̶C̶:̶ ̶7̶2̶-̶8̶5̶ ̶(̶2̶3̶.̶6̶ ̶-̶ ̶2̶7̶.̶9̶%̶)̶ ̶-̶-̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶5̶H̶K̶O̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶L̶e̶f̶t̶o̶v̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶o̶v̶e̶r̶y̶
̶v̶s̶
̶2̶5̶2̶+̶ ̶A̶t̶k̶ ̶C̶h̶o̶i̶c̶e̶ ̶B̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶T̶a̶l̶o̶n̶f̶l̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶B̶r̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶B̶i̶r̶d̶ ̶v̶s̶.̶ ̶2̶5̶2̶ ̶H̶P̶ ̶/̶ ̶1̶8̶0̶+̶ ̶D̶e̶f̶ ̶R̶o̶t̶o̶m̶-̶C̶:̶ ̶4̶6̶-̶5̶5̶ ̶(̶1̶5̶.̶1̶ ̶-̶ ̶1̶8̶%̶)̶ ̶-̶-̶ ̶p̶o̶s̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶8̶H̶K̶O̶ ̶a̶f̶t̶e̶r̶ ̶L̶e̶f̶t̶o̶v̶e̶r̶s̶ ̶r̶e̶c̶o̶v̶e̶r̶y̶ EDIT: i thought these looked funny...

in spite of this, there are some points regarding mega-pinsir that need to be addressed:

1. although its priority is stronger, and it only eats 25% from SR (pre-mega), this pokemon can only be used on a bug team. since the problem seems to be with its flying-type attacks decimating grass, bug and fighting teams, lets take a look at each of these:

-- vs bug kinda sucks, but hey guess what bug gets mega-pinsir too so this is a moot point. I have also seen and argued with people on PS that claim mega-heracross is the better bug mega, which frankly doesn't make sense with all the pinsirite ban talk going around

-- vs fighting, cobalion/terrakion outspeed, survive a +2 quick attack, and can OHKO with rock moves... if you see a pinsir in team preview, you would be wise to keep your mega-pinsir check alive and ready as long as you can, especially since nothing else on bug really carries flying attacks (except yanmega, but nobody runs 2 bug/flying mons on the same team)

-- vs grass, yes grass has the hardest time with it, but guess what? mega-pinsir is only usable on a bug team, and even with mega-pinsir out of the picture, grass still has a shitty time vs bug with volcarona and yanmega (who hit almost everyone on the team SE with their STABs), mega-heracross, scizor, etc. etc.

2. the last point of bug vs grass needs more emphasis imo.. please don't ban mega-pinsir to give grass an easier time in mono, as grass only faces mega-pinsir when facing a bug team, and bug teams still have plenty of tools to devastate grass teams

3. mega-pinsir is predictable, with return/quick attack/SD on almost every set, leaving one slot to cover steels/electrics/rocks with either EQ or CC, both of which come with their own sets of counters.

4. grass and fighting (sorta) are the only monos that are troubled this much by it (bug is a mirror match, and gets scizor / armaldo / forretress in addition to their own mega-pinsir). tmk every other type has the tools needed to deal with mega-pinsir, and as a result mega-pinsir does not have a huge advantage vs more than 2 teams.

I can see a suspect test for this in the future, but IMO mega gallade is the bigger problem for monotype

 

[thesecondbest]

Where the hell are you getting those calcs?
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 272-324 (84.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 8 HP / 0- Def Abomasnow: 662-782 (204.9 - 242.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Pinsir's return is barely stronger than a banded brave bird.
But I think people are lying when they say fighting gets swept. Terrakion and Cobalion are both very solid outside of beating Pinsir. Grass is a fairly bad type and it still has ferrothorn (volc is way worse for it). In the bug mirror Forry deals with it pretty well. I don't think it needs a ban, but a suspect wouldn't be completely out of the question. Right now though, I think Hoopa-U is the top priority. We've had enough time with it in the meta. It doesn't sweep any type, but is it too good for other reasons?

 

[Entei]

Your calculator has been lying to you :(

252+ Atk Choice Band Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Rotom-C: 169-201 (55.5 - 66.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Quick Attack vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Rotom-C: 70-84 (23 - 27.6%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery

Throwing this in just cause :/

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 188+ Def Rotom-C: 180-213 (59.2 - 70%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Arash]

^ derp on me i spose...

the other points i feel are valid though. in order of importance, i'd see it as:

- mega-gallade (psychic mostly; a global ban would suck for fighting but they have usable alternatives)
- hoopa-U
- mega-pinsir

after these i can't see anything being too big of a problem in monotype

 

[eren]

I personally dont think Mega Pinsir is too big of a problem personally, and many types have means of checking it fairly nicely.

Fire - Obviously Fire

Psychic- Scarf Victini, Latios, Latias

Grass- Defensive Rotom-Mow, Cradily (bar cc), and Ferrothorn can TWave to help make handling it easier

Water- Scarf / Defensive Rotom-Wash, Swift Swim

Flying- Skarmory, Zapdos

Rock- Mega Aggron, Mega Diancie, Scarf Ttar, Cradily, Scarf Terrakion

Fighting- Sash Breloom, Scarf Terrakion, Sash Nape, Hawlucha

Fairy- Klefki can Twave it, Togekiss can be scarfed, Mega Gard, Mega Diancie

Steel- Skarm, Scarf Zone, Scarf Heatran, Toxic Doublade

Normal- Scarf Staraptor, Mega Pidgeot, Sash DIggersby, Twave/Toxic from Chansey on switch in, Defensive Staravia

Ground- Exca under Sand, Sash/Scarf Mamo, Garchomp can tank one

Ice- Avalugg, Scarf/Sash Mamo, Scarf Kyurem

Dark- Scarf Tar, Defensive Mandi, Prankster Wisp from Sableye

Dragon- Tons of Scarf Mons, Tank Chomp

Poison- Crobat, Haze Wisp weezing, Scarf Nido

Ghost- Aegislash, Wisp from Mega Eye

Bug- Armaldo i guess, Red Card Forre, Sash Galvantula, Other Pinsir

While Pinsir is really good, many teams have the capacities to beat it, while through chip damage for more bulky teams or outspeeding and KOing it. I think it shouldnt be banned :]

 

[Chrono One]

Fighting- Scarf Breloom

Not even going to say anything.
'
Also, defensive Cobalion handles Pinsir with paraflinch and/or roar.

 

[eren]

Not even going to say anything.
'
Also, defensive Cobalion handles Pinsir with paraflinch and/or roar.

Meant Sash uwu

 

[Josh]

I personally dont think Mega Pinsir is too big of a problem personally, and many types have means of checking it fairly nicely.

Fire - Obviously Fire

Psychic- Scarf Victini, Latios, Latias

Grass- Defensive Rotom-Mow, Cradily (bar cc), and Ferrothorn can TWave to help make handling it easier

Water- Scarf / Defensive Rotom-Wash, Swift Swim

Flying- Skarmory, Zapdos

Rock- Mega Aggron, Mega Diancie, Scarf Ttar, Cradily, Scarf Terrakion

Fighting- Sash Breloom, Scarf Terrakion, Sash Nape, Hawlucha

Fairy- Klefki can Twave it, Togekiss can be scarfed, Mega Gard, Mega Diancie

Steel- Skarm, Scarf Zone, Scarf Heatran, Toxic Doublade

Normal- Scarf Staraptor, Mega Pidgeot, Sash DIggersby, Twave/Toxic from Chansey on switch in, Defensive Staravia

Ground- Exca under Sand, Sash/Scarf Mamo, Garchomp can tank one

Ice- Avalugg, Scarf/Sash Mamo, Scarf Kyurem

Dark- Scarf Tar, Defensive Mandi, Prankster Wisp from Sableye

Dragon- Tons of Scarf Mons, Tank Chomp

Poison- Crobat, Haze Wisp weezing, Scarf Nido

Ghost- Aegislash, Wisp from Mega Eye

Bug- Armaldo i guess, Red Card Forre, Sash Galvantula, Other Pinsir

While Pinsir is really good, many teams have the capacities to beat it, while through chip damage for more bulky teams or outspeeding and KOing it. I think it shouldnt be banned :]

Meant Sash uwu

Sash breloom and sash infernape pretty much has to be a lead because bug gets a lot of hazards and fighting gets no viable hazard control. It still can't really check m-pinsir.

Fightings only checks to mega Pinsir are SCARFED Terrakion (pretty much every good bug team has webs) or bulky Cobalion. Quick Attack OHKO's Hawlucha iirc.
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 240-284 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aka, after a SD that turns into 1 check (in the entire type. Let's assume you've somehow dealt with bulky scizor (very very common on mega Pinsir teams) because if you haven't there's a free Terrakion switchin. There's nothing forcing mega Pinsir to stay in because bug also has a few spinners and defoggers (keeping hazards up aren't important against fighting). Even assuming nothing can come in, relying on a 80% isn't all that safe anyways.

In general fighting just a TERRIBLE matchup against mega Pinsir. Obviously bug and grass despise mega Pinsir as well.


Anyways, don't ban mega Pinsir lol. Grass loses to bug anyways, and bug can deal with it as well. It's not broken just because it anals fighting, and even fighting does win sometimes via MVP scarfed Terrakion and chip fake out damage from megacham is sometimes enough.



As a PS, may I say a LOT more checks it than you mentioned slurmz, and a few of the checks you mentioned don't actually check it lol.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

I think for a good discussion of Mega Pinsir's brokenness there needs to be an agreement in what Mega Pinsir we are talking about.
Some questions to ask are:

What support does Mega Pinsir get from it's teammates?

Mega Pinsir has teammates like shuckle, forretress, armaldo, and galvantula. These pokemon can provide support in the form of stealth rocks to break sashes and sticky webs to outspeed would be threats. Another pokemon to think about is scolipede, and while baton pass has been nerfed it can still pass speed boosts to Mega Pinsir, allowing it to be the fastest pokemon in the battle if paired with sticky web.

What moves will Mega Pinsir use?

While common Mega Pinsir use Swords Dance, Quick Attack, Return/Frustration, Close Combat/Earthquake.
While these are the common moves, some Mega Pinsir can go away from the common for different moves that deal more damage or have different coverage.
Examples include feint, double edge, x-scissor, and rock slide.

Is it easy for Mega Pinsir too boost up to +2 attack with swords dance?

With respectable 65/120/90 bulk it isn't hard to imagine Mega Pinsir setting up on resisted, neutral, and even some super effective attacks, and we all know that once it gets +2 it can sweep a majority of pokemon in the monotype metagame.

Do semi viable sets who find their main use as countering/checking Mega Pinsir make Mega Pinsir over centralizing or show that the type in question is adapting to Mega Pinsir?

Is fighting using defensive cobalion or scarf terrakion to check Mega Pinsir over centralizing or showing that the fighting monotype is just adapting to Mega Pinsir.
Would it be a better metagame if the fighting user didn't have to use one of those two to check Mega Pinsir? Is the purpose of bans to allow the metagame to be more creative instead of requiring checks to certain pokemon?

Conclusion/tl;dr

I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on some questions about Mega Pinsir. The post above is just to highlight and to get you thinking about Mega Pinsir, and I think this discussion would benefit if we could all agree on which Mega Pinsir we are talking about.
Questions:

Does Mega Pinsir have hazards or boosts from teammates?
(Sticky web, stealth rocks, speed boosts)

Does Mega Pinsir have the exact same moveset or does it run specific moves that are in it's movepool?
(Feint, Double Edge, X-Scissor, Rock Slide)

Does Mega Pinsir have a boost or even two boosts from swords dance?
(65/120/90 bulk and an alright defensive typing)

Is everyone using a specific set to check or counter Mega Pinsir showing that Mega Pinsir is over centralizing or that the metagame is adapting?
(Fighting having to use defensive cobalion or scarf terrakion)

My answers

Does Mega Pinsir have hazards or boosts from teammates?

Yes. Shuckle has good enough bulk to set up stealth rocks and sticky webs, and paired with mental herb it can usually set up at least on hazard based on choice.
Bug also has forretress and armaldo to also set up rocks, so bug isn't in need of viable rock users. Sticky webs are also easy to set up, and if the opposing team doesn't have the best hazard removal (Fighting, Grass, Fire) then they are more than likely staying up. Boosts are a different story, as scolipede finds a difficult time passing safe boosts to other pokemon unless it was given a free substitute.
Bug will more than likely have rocks and webs up, but Mega Pinsir won't have any boosts from it's teammates.

Does Mega Pinsir have the exact same moveset or does it run specific moves that are in it's movepool?

Mega Pinsir can run different moves from it's movepool for coverage or for more damage. However it just doesn't get that many good moves and so it's movepool remains fairly small and a lot of the other moves it gets are pretty useless for Mega Pinsir.
Moves taken into account should be the usual 5 (QA, Return, Frustration, CC, EQ) along with a few other moves (Feint and Double edge).

Does Mega Pinsir have a boost or even two boosts from swords dance?

Yes, but only one. Many times during a match Mega Pinsir can come in and swords dance for free or for little damage. While it isn't Charizard X forcing tons of things out to get free boosts Mega Pinsir can still find boosting opportunities to easily boost once, but not twice.
Mega Pinsir should be assumed to have +2 in attack for getting one boost.

Is everyone using a specific set to check or counter Mega Pinsir showing that Mega Pinsir is over centralizing or that the metagame is adapting?

It shows that the metagame is adapting. It's not like scarf Terrakion is useless in other matchups, and it's far from a niche set useful only in matchups were Mega Pinsir is there, and a pokemon doesn't need to have a bunch of checks for each type to be balanced. Less than 5 checks or counters for certain types shows that A) That type is weak to Mega Pinsir but still has ways to get past it. or B) That type is still finding checks or counters for Mega Pinsir.
The metagame is adapting to Mega Pinsir, but not over centralized around it.

 

[Chrono One]

Sash breloom and sash infernape pretty much has to be a lead because bug gets a lot of hazards and fighting gets no viable hazard control. It still can't really check m-pinsir.

Fightings only checks to mega Pinsir are SCARFED Terrakion (pretty much every good bug team has webs) or bulky Cobalion. Quick Attack OHKO's Hawlucha iirc.
252 Atk Mega Pinsir Close Combat vs. 140 HP / 0 Def Cobalion: 240-284 (67 - 79.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Aka, after a SD that turns into 1 check (in the entire type. Let's assume you've somehow dealt with bulky scizor (very very common on mega Pinsir teams) because if you haven't there's a free Terrakion switchin. There's nothing forcing mega Pinsir to stay in because bug also has a few spinners and defoggers (keeping hazards up aren't important against fighting). Even assuming nothing can come in, relying on a 80% isn't all that safe anyways.

In general fighting just a TERRIBLE matchup against mega Pinsir. Obviously bug and grass despise mega Pinsir as well.


Anyways, don't ban mega Pinsir lol. Grass loses to bug anyways, and bug can deal with it as well. It's not broken just because it anals fighting, and even fighting does win sometimes via MVP scarfed Terrakion and chip fake out damage from megacham is sometimes enough.



As a PS, may I say a LOT more checks it than you mentioned slurmz, and a few of the checks you mentioned don't actually check it lol.

As a Fighting user, I have close to zero problems with Pinsir. It's more based around predicting to beat it rather than having a team member.
Physically defensive Cobalion is an ez check. I can paraflinch it or set up rocks when they think I will paraflinch (so they Quick Attack) and roar it out.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Cobalion: 153-180 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

or, I can switch in Terrakion on Moxie QA or sack and switch. +2 Pinsir does not OHKO Terrakion and depending on the way my opponent plays I can determine if they will switch to Scizor or not (assuming they have Scizor).

Also, Keldeo takes a Quick Attack. banscald

 

[Josh]

As a Fighting user, I have close to zero problems with Pinsir. It's more based around predicting to beat it rather than having a team member.
Physically defensive Cobalion is an ez check. I can paraflinch it or set up rocks when they think I will paraflinch (so they Quick Attack) and roar it out.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Cobalion: 153-180 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

or, I can switch in Terrakion on Moxie QA or sack and switch. +2 Pinsir does not OHKO Terrakion and depending on the way my opponent plays I can determine if they will switch to Scizor or not (assuming they have Scizor).

Also, Keldeo takes a Quick Attack. banscald

I'm also a fighting user (peaked #8 but usually around 1600 on old ladder, I'm not the best but I'm decent), and don't take this the wrong way because I beat Pinsir around a third of the good players I match that have it, but a lot of what you said is wrong.

Keldeo can take a quick attack, and outspeed if webs aren't up (which every skilled bug user will) or outspeed anyways with Scarf, but what exactly is your plan to kill Pinsir? Keldeo is literally set up bait because Pinsir can SD knowing Keld can't KO it and then OHKO with quick attack. You're relying on HP rock (HP rock keldeo is NOT viable at all to say the least) or the 30% Scald ban rate or you literally lose the game.

How exactly do you Para mega Pinsir in the first place to cripple it? Cobalion definitely does not switch in, and after it sucks up a close combat to Para it it's in kill range. Not that a mega Pinsir will be staying in on coba anyways when bug has so many potential status absorbers. Then Pinsir comes back in later, kills again, etc. Coba is a very very soft check.

You literally said, multiple times, that you rely on your opponent screwing up to win. It's not a valid strategy if it only works when your opponent fucks up. Switching into Terrakion, your ONLY hard check, and potentially losing it to a return or close combat/eq, is just stupid.




EDIT:

I'm also a a fighting user peaking around 1750 on the ladder and one thing ur saying is completely wrong cobs lion may be able to take a return cause if u switch it in it takes a return and then the next turn u t wave while they sd and then the next turn the either cc or e quake and finish u off u can para flinch but it's at full health ur completely and utterly relying on has and a +2 quick attack proceeds to kill everything but terrakion but I assume u don't use that or u woulda mentioned in ur post :d. Yes it is likely you'll get has but if u don't then u lose and depending on how healthy ur team is at that moment it may only need to kill 2 more things and get two more quick attacks while pared.

Also just for people saying sash breloom and infernape are counters those are usually leads I mean you can just lead with something else but even in that situation your implying you won't allow stealth rocks to get set up and if it does there is no good hazard control on fighting. There is options but those are completely niche to one thing tryout ur evolutions aren't cutting it


And of course the one counter to it terrakion. I do agree this is a counter cause sticky web doesn't make it slower (I think I'm right...) as long as it's scarf and it takes +2 quick attack. It's the only reliable way to beat pinsir imo.

Terrakion is still only a check, not a counter. It has an 80% chance to win, and pinsir can still severely weaken it.

 

[TheAce22]

As a Fighting user, I have close to zero problems with Pinsir. It's more based around predicting to beat it rather than having a team member.
Physically defensive Cobalion is an ez check. I can paraflinch it or set up rocks when they think I will paraflinch (so they Quick Attack) and roar it out.

252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Cobalion: 153-180 (39.6 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

or, I can switch in Terrakion on Moxie QA or sack and switch. +2 Pinsir does not OHKO Terrakion and depending on the way my opponent plays I can determine if they will switch to Scizor or not (assuming they have Scizor).

Also, Keldeo takes a Quick Attack. banscald

Mega Pinsir Vs. Fighting
Indroduction + Response to Chrono + Cobalion: I'm also a a fighting user peaking around 1750 on the ladder and one thing ur saying is completely wrong cobs lion may be able to take a return cause if u switch it in it takes a return and then the next turn u t wave while they sd and then the next turn the either cc or e quake and finish u off u can para flinch but it's at full health ur completely and utterly relying on has and a +2 quick attack proceeds to kill everything but terrakion but I assume u don't use that or u woulda mentioned in ur post :d. Yes it is likely you'll get has but if u don't then u lose and depending on how healthy ur team is at that moment it may only need to kill 2 more things and get two more quick attacks while pared.

Infernape + Breloom: Also just for people saying sash breloom and infernape are counters those are usually leads I mean you can just lead with something else but even in that situation your implying you won't allow stealth rocks to get set up and if it does there is no good hazard control on fighting. There is options but those are completely niche to one thing tryout ur evolutions aren't cutting it


Terrakion: And of course the one check to it terrakion. I do agree this is a counter cause sticky web doesn't make it slower (I think I'm right...) as long as it's scarf and it takes +2 quick attack. It's the only reliable way to beat pinsir imo.

 

[eren]

Also just for people saying sash breloom and infernape are counters those are usually leads I mean you can just lead with something else but even in that situation your implying you won't allow stealth rocks to get set up and if it does there is no good hazard control on fighting. There is options but those are completely niche to one thing tryout ur evolutions aren't cutting it

Ok, I never said they were counters, I said they were checks. Infernape is usually a lead if Sash, but Breloom, if sashed is usually reserved by the fighting type to check pinsir and prevent it from just sweeping you. Its also relatively easy to prevent Forretress or Armaldo from setting rocks with Taunt from Cobalion, Infernape, and possibly Keldeo to prevent this. Breloom, with sash, can easily KO Pinsir with Rock Tomb and prevent it from beating you.


Also Joshz what isnt a check to Pinsir that I listed

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Ok, I never said they were counters, I said they were checks. Infernape is usually a lead if Sash, but Breloom, if sashed is usually reserved by the fighting type to check pinsir and prevent it from just sweeping you. Its also relatively easy to prevent Forretress or Armaldo from setting rocks with Taunt from Cobalion, Infernape, and possibly Keldeo to prevent this. Breloom, with sash, can easily KO Pinsir with Rock Tomb and prevent it from beating you.


Also Joshz what isnt a check to Pinsir that I listed

Not going through the entire list, but you mentioned weezing for poison but:
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 313-370 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 313-370 (93.7 - 110.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 Atk Aerilate Mega Pinsir Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 369-435 (110.4 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mega Pinsir kinda ohkos after a boost and rocks. The only way Weezing survives a hit is if Mega Pinsir is unboosted, which means Mega Pinsir switched in or didn't boost on the switch.

 

[TheAce22]

Ok, I never said they were counters, I said they were checks. Infernape is usually a lead if Sash, but Breloom, if sashed is usually reserved by the fighting type to check pinsir and prevent it from just sweeping you. Its also relatively easy to prevent Forretress or Armaldo from setting rocks with Taunt from Cobalion, Infernape, and possibly Keldeo to prevent this. Breloom, with sash, can easily KO Pinsir with Rock Tomb and prevent it from beating you.


Also Joshz what isnt a check to Pinsir that I listed

Ok that makes absolutely no sense saying its easy to not let rocks get up against u. If you bring in Medicham/Gallade/Terrakion/Keldeo(If foretress still has its sturdy)/Hawlucha/conkeldurr and get a kill foretress just comes and gets up rocks. Your implying you'll always be in the right situation to prevent rocks. Also theres mental herb shuckle which unless keldeo is in on it and is specs or set up with CMs already it gets up rokcs

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Ok that makes absolutely no sense saying its easy to not let rocks get up against u. If you bring in Medicham/Gallade/Terrakion/Keldeo(If foretress still has its sturdy)/Hawlucha/conkeldurr and get a kill foretress just comes and gets up rocks. Your implying you'll always be in the right situation to prevent rocks.

Also a majority of shuckle now carry mental herb (The most used item on shuckle iirc).
so taunt isn't working.

 

[RZL]

Still, you usually bring Terrakion when you use Fighting and it can outspeed and beat Pinsir, and you should be running Scarf, if you use a truly competitive Fighting-team then, you should have at least a Scarf Terrakion. If Sash-Breloom is your only answer, then your team is probably due for an update. Everyone forgets that if Pinsir or anything for that matter is low on health Fake Out for Mega Medicham says "Hi.". Honestly, Fighting has no counters to Mega Pinsir, but it has one strong check and a weaker one in, Terrakion and Cobalion. So, I don't get why there is petty arguing over someone trying to be a little creative, to stop Rocks from being set up, simply set your own up.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 68-81 (25 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 68-81 (25 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Pure Power Mega Medicham Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mega Pinsir: 68-81 (25 - 29.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
How to kill Mega Pinsir without scarf terrakion.
Step 1: Set up rocks
Step 2: Prevent bug user from removing rocks
Step 3 Switch in mega medicham and use fake out
Step 4 Switch out something then switch Mega Medicham back in
Step 5 Rinse and repeat until Mega Pinsir is in bullet punch ko range then make it go rip in piece
(This is not that serious of a post since I'm sure fighting monos without scarf terrakion have better ways than that to kill Mega Pinsir, this is just a stuff to prevent it from being a 3 line post with calcs saying that Medicham can wear down Mega Pinsir quickly with fake out)

 

[darkrai147]

This is not the place for you guys to go back and forth bickering about random things with meaningless one-line posts. Please pm each other or something, this thread is getting ridiculous.

 

[eren]

Just because Pinsir can beat fighting doesnt mean its broken, its when it can beat almost any type, an example being zard x and genesect, which both had tremendous versatility. we all know Mega Pinsir has the advantage vs Fighting.

 

[Josh]

Ok, I never said they were counters, I said they were checks. Infernape is usually a lead if Sash, but Breloom, if sashed is usually reserved by the fighting type to check pinsir and prevent it from just sweeping you. Its also relatively easy to prevent Forretress or Armaldo from setting rocks with Taunt from Cobalion, Infernape, and possibly Keldeo to prevent this. Breloom, with sash, can easily KO Pinsir with Rock Tomb and prevent it from beating you.


Also Joshz what isnt a check to Pinsir that I listed

it is not relatively easy to control bug getting rocks up, dont lie.

Mega Pinsir Vs. Fighting
Indroduction + Response to Chrono + Cobalion: I'm also a a fighting user peaking around 1750 on the ladder and one thing ur saying is completely wrong cobs lion may be able to take a return cause if u switch it in it takes a return and then the next turn u t wave while they sd and then the next turn the either cc or e quake and finish u off u can para flinch but it's at full health ur completely and utterly relying on has and a +2 quick attack proceeds to kill everything but terrakion but I assume u don't use that or u woulda mentioned in ur post :d. Yes it is likely you'll get has but if u don't then u lose and depending on how healthy ur team is at that moment it may only need to kill 2 more things and get two more quick attacks while pared.

Infernape + Breloom: Also just for people saying sash breloom and infernape are counters those are usually leads I mean you can just lead with something else but even in that situation your implying you won't allow stealth rocks to get set up and if it does there is no good hazard control on fighting. There is options but those are completely niche to one thing tryout ur evolutions aren't cutting it


Terrakion: And of course the one counter to it terrakion. I do agree this is a counter cause sticky web doesn't make it slower (I think I'm right...) as long as it's scarf and it takes +2 quick attack. It's the only reliable way to beat pinsir imo.

Not a counter, again terrakion is just a check.

Also a majority of shuckle now carry mental herb (The most used item on shuckle iirc).
so taunt isn't working.

this
and in general you cant rely on them consistently having their hazard setters against cobalion
and you cant rely on having cobalion with taunt in general. there are a lot of potential moves assuming you can even fit cobalion on your team, which i cant.

Still, you usually bring Terrakion when you use Fighting and it can outspeed and beat Pinsir, and you should be running Scarf, if you use a truly competitive Fighting-team then, you should have at least a Scarf Terrakion. If Sash-Breloom is your only answer, then your team is probably due for an update. Everyone forgets that if Pinsir or anything for that matter is low on health Fake Out for Mega Medicham says "Hi.". Honestly, Fighting has no counters to Mega Pinsir, but it has one strong check and a weaker one in, Terrakion and Cobalion. So, I don't get why there is petty arguing over someone trying to be a little creative, to stop Rocks from being set up, simply set your own up.

lol no. not every good fighting team "should at least have a scarfed terrakion", its just as viable as a non scarfed hazard setter and/or set up sweeper. medicham fake out does what, 25%? congrats, you have to sack 3 things for it to work besides the one thing pinsir killed allowing medicham to come in. 4 if you dont have rocks up which is common for fighting. yes this works if you have prior damage on pinsir, but thats a LOT of prior damage for something with sweeping priority. and "everyone forgets" I just mentioned that in my post

Two months ago my fighting hit #1 on ladder and guess what? My fighting never has used terrakion so please don't call fighting without terrakion uncompetitive

Um darkrai. you just posted a one line post...

Just because Pinsir can beat fighting doesnt mean its broken, its when it can beat almost any type, an example being zard x and genesect, which both had tremendous versatility. we all know Mega Pinsir has the advantage vs Fighting.

can you guys not post shitty 1 line replies with no arguments in them? noone cares about your peaks, your shitty replies to someone telling you not to post 1 liners, and we arent even discussing whether m-pinsir should be banned atm, we are discussing what fighting can do to it.




SMALL EDIT: I'd also like to add having scarf terrakion does wonders for a fighting team, I use it on mine and it's often MVP. It is an amazing check to SkarmDos core that fighting has trouble with, or aegislash on ghost for example (EQ at least does decent damage). I'm just saying it's not REQUIRED to run it by any means.

 

[Acast]

Since the whole Mega Pinsir debate has mostly become a series of one or two line responses, I figured now would be a good time to get some discussion going on a topic that isn't ban related. This thread is about more than just banning things after all :P

Now that the metagame is kinda/sorta settling down, I'm beginning to see a trend: Mega Gyarados. The oversized shrimp is more popular than I ever thought it would be. Maybe I'm just unlucky, but now that I'm running Psychic a lot, it seems like about a third of the teams I face include Mega Gyara in some form. If it runs Crunch, Mega Gyarados is a huge threat to Psychic, and I honestly think it's one of the primary reasons why Psychic won't become as OP as I was initially thinking it would be.

I'm curious how you all are dealing with this water beast, especially the Psychic users. Have you found any innovative ways of preventing a sweep?

One method I've found after a discussing my team with Anttya (thanks for all the help btw) is Deoxys-Speed.

Deoxys-Speed @ Focus Sash
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave
- Grass Knot / Thunderbolt

With 252 Speed EVs and a Jolly or Timid nature, it outspeeds Mega Gyara even after 2 Dragon Dances (assuming the Gyarados doesn't run max speed, and I think most don't). From there, Deoxys can use Thunder Wave to allow Mega Gallade or Gardevoir to revenge kill it. If the Gyarados has a substitute up, Taunt can be used to prevent it from setting up Dragon Dance, or Grass Knot is an option to break the sub. Anttya initially recommended Thunderbolt, but I prefer Grass Knot because it does more damage assuming the Gyarados has already mega evolved. Deoxys doesn't need any Special Attack investment to break the substitute even if the Gyarados has max HP, max Special Defense, and a Special Defense boosting nature.

4 SpA Deoxys-S Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Gyarados: 102-120 (25.8 - 30.4%) -- guaranteed 4HKO

I suppose you could run 252 in SpA instead of HP. I'm still not sure if the HP EVs are worth it considering I have a sash, but the sash won't always be in tact, so for now I like the EVs the way they are.

Anyway, thoughts on that Mega Gyara check? It's not perfect by any means and it's really more of a suicide check than anything, but it does help. Anttya mentioned Grass Knot on Slowbro is a decent check as well, which I also use.

So what have you all come up with to prevent your teams from getting obliterated by an oversized shrimp? Considering it's probably one of the most threatening mons in the metagame right now, I feel like this would be a beneficial discussion for everyone.

EDIT: It's been mentioned to me that my Deo-S set is very niche, which is completely true. It is dedicated to checking Mega Gyarados and it's not great at doing much else. It can function as a good suicide lead, but with all the Defog users nowadays, suicide leads don't work too well. So I'm sure it's not the best option, but it's what I've been using and it does serve its purpose.