SPOILERS! Mysteries and Conspiracies of Pokemon

Karxrida said:
I've never been in a romantic relationship so this is only conjecture, but I'm pretty sure not everyone would react the same way you did. Some people would loathe your ex, some would just get depressed, others would probably have very conflicted feelings like you did.


It was made perfectly clear that she knew what AZ did was horribly wrong and left him because of it. I also wouldn't take other canons into account because there are written by different people and tend to butt heads with each other already.


Plot convenience and Rule of Drama.
Click to expand...

Touché. And while I realize that canons often contradict each other, if things are consistent between them, then I'd say they are pretty much secure regardless of other contradictions.

And I never said Floette didn't understand what AZ did was wrong. I just said she understood the reason behind it and she decided to make AZ learn his lesson. Of course, Floette as a species tend to be very forgiving motherly Pokemon as far as I can tell. *shrug*
 
Master X: Well I wouldn't toss out AZ's Floette out just yet, afterall isn't 3,000 just 30 hundred? Though unless the flower AZ's Floette has has any significance to him there really isn't any resemblance. That said if they do have that mechanic in the game I imagine it would be simple changes. The only "Ash" thing about Greninja's appearance is the hair on the side, the color scheme of the additional parts, and its white stomach looking like the zipper part of Ash's jacket. All that is easily swapable as they're just component parts. They'll get a hair pieces that resembles the hair the player has, the color of the additional parts would change depending on the color scheme of the clothes the player wears, and the stomach pattern will change depending on the clothes (which is just a texture swap). This will probably also only be for the Starters.

Karxrida: AZ's Floette always looked the way that it did, so it's likely it that special flower that it has which explains its appearance (and since we saw that flower growing at the base of the Cave of Origin tree which AZ planted, as I said its possible the flower has some significance to him like only the Kalos royal family were able to grow those type of flowers (thus AZ would have given it to Floette as a gift)).

And I don't think it'll lose the appearance just because it left AZ, mainly because it only left AZ until he let go of the hate in his heart though always kept an eye on him. There was still a strong bond between the two, it was just the hate AZ built up was preventing the bond from connecting.
 
Pikachu315111 said:
Well assuming the "New Pokemon" isn't just a new form and is actually a new species of Pokemon, let's first compare its silhouette with the Strange Souvenir:

Untitled_zps23a1r04z.png
Dream_Strange_Souvenir_Sprite.png


So is there any relation? Not really. The SS's head doesn't have a crown nor the diamond on its head. So whatever the SS is I don't think its this new Pokemon which I highly think is just a new form.

If they're going to do anything with the SS they'd need to do so in the next game. Otherwise it's completely pointless and while I guess it does some world building I think we all could have predicted there are many other regions outside the few we knew all having new Pokemon we never seen before. And even if they do something with it in the next game, unless they'll allow us to carry items over, whatever it'll do won't really have any impact to the next gen (or whatever future gen this SS is hinting at) or we'll somehow get a Pokemon which would do something that'll unlock something in that game. Honestly I think we should just wait until the next game until discussion of the SS comes up again. As of right now its completely useless and there's nothing hinting at it having a greater purpose.
Click to expand...

The nose maybe an indicator; the nostrils look big because they're meant to be closer to you than the eyes, as in a snout sticking out with the nostrils huffing/puffing. Which indicates dragon type to me. Also, front appendages but no lower ones visible, indicating the other two are obscured, thus likely at the back indicating a quadruped (unless we believe it only has arms…since they are shown high up). The flattish head, I've no idea. Maybe indicating a golem/artificial/flat rock head (jewish kind golem) of some kind. So…a summoned to life from rock dragon Pokemon. Possibly by that mysterious dragon town that keeps getting mentioned?
 
Master X:It's not really detailed enough to make any definite calls. I mean how many Dragon-types do we have that don't look like dragons and dragon-looking Pokemon that aren't Dragon-type? And those appendages looks like arms or wings, and it has no legs since it could just be a symbolic statue or a bust of it.

Mysterious Dragon town? You mean the Village of Dragons that Iris is from? I think that's some place close to Unova so if we do focus on it it'll be in the Unova games.
 
I just see a tiki when I look at the Strange Souvenir. Maybe the next region is based on Hawaii.

Maybe the "flowers" clue was a hint that we would get to explore the characteristically floral island state
 
  • Like
Reactions: JES
Looking through the past page-and-a-half or so, it seems like most of the mysteries talk has been about the various Zygarde Formes, what is up with Ash's Greninja, and what happens to AZ's Floette. Turns out those are all issues eclipsed by the "Pokémon Z" thread, or the Anime thread. Let's keep speculation to those threads, and leave this thread for the mysteries of the past, not only the future. If you find a mystery, and on second thought it seems likely the answer will be revealed in the next game/the Anime, please post it in the respective thread and not here. Thank you!
 
jordanthejq12 said:
"It's a trash can."

(Although in XY they actually did have a purpose some of the time.)
Click to expand...
They're there so you can be kind to the environment and put your trash where it belongs... oh, and sometimes wild Trubbish/Garbodor pop out. And Rotom for some reason in the Lost Hotel on Tuesdays. And Banette in the Pokemon Village on Thursdays.

Actually, has it ever been questioned why Rotom and Banette appear out of those trash cans on specific days of the week? Or why Rotom would be in anything that doesn't use electricity in the slightest? (I can kind of understand Banette being in there as it was 'supposedly' a discarded doll brought to life by its immense grudge towards being thrown away)

And is there any hints as to what the hell happened to the Lost Hotel for it to be in the sorry state it's in?
 
Detective Barricade said:
They're there so you can be kind to the environment and put your trash where it belongs... oh, and sometimes wild Trubbish/Garbodor pop out. And Rotom for some reason in the Lost Hotel on Tuesdays. And Banette in the Pokemon Village on Thursdays.

Actually, has it ever been questioned why Rotom and Banette appear out of those trash cans on specific days of the week? Or why Rotom would be in anything that doesn't use electricity in the slightest? (I can kind of understand Banette being in there as it was 'supposedly' a discarded doll brought to life by its immense grudge towards being thrown away)

And is there any hints as to what the hell happened to the Lost Hotel for it to be in the sorry state it's in?
Click to expand...
Rotom was looking for an appliance to possess as evident by the fact that sometimes it is in one of its other forms. As for who's tossing out whole refrigerators, washing machines, and lawnmowers in a regular trash can is not any of our concern.
 
Detective Barricade said:
And is there any hints as to what the hell happened to the Lost Hotel for it to be in the sorry state it's in?
Click to expand...

Map description says "This once-famous hotel clings to the shade of its former glory after tragedy left it in ruins". But they don't really go into what happened to the hotel but rather thought it would be the perfect spot to place a rollerskating themed punk gang. Though considering the popularity of Sea Mauville I'm wondering if the Lost Hotel returns in XY2/Z they maybe do what they did there and hide things likes newspapers articles, letters, and photos explaining what happened.

Adding onto what Darth Manaphy said, not only is Rotom probably looking for electronics to possess (being its a hotel I imagine they could have had the refrigerators, washing machines, and lawnmowers lying around somewhere and Rotom possessed them before going into hiding) but likes to scare people so it's probably also waiting for someone to look inside the garbage to jump out at them.
 
Master X said:
Something else to add to the recent info, it being about Ash Greninja.

Apparently it gains its new "Ash" look attire through its deep bond with Ash, but the interesting thing is, it says it's only ever happened "once" before in the past of the pokemon world. It's pretty obvious that they mean AZ's Floette, right?

I wonder if this is a hint, some of the starters will get altered colour schemes in Z depending on clothing on the MC when they evolve? The only trouble with THAT though is what if they bring clothing back? That's a LOT of palette swaps for 3 Pokemon. Maybe a hint the clothing customisation isn't coming back? (All that hassle…) I can just see GameFAQs forum turn to hell itself if everyone finds out their precious "customisation" is not coming back.
Click to expand...

Yep! I'm still waiting to be able to buy the clothing sets from RBY and GSC, because those are awesome!
 
I've always wondered how hierarchy works among the legendary Pokemon. Lugia is the beast of the sea, Manaphy is the prince of the sea, Kyogre supposedly expanded the sea itself... Can't see either Kyogre or Lugia being lesser than the other. Does the extent of a legendary Pokemon's power or lore limited to their home region? Keep in mind that the in game canon gives us both Kyogre and Lugia in multiple regions.
 
Gabe said:
I've always wondered how hierarchy works among the legendary Pokemon. Lugia is the beast of the sea, Manaphy is the prince of the sea, Kyogre supposedly expanded the sea itself... Can't see either Kyogre or Lugia being lesser than the other. Does the extent of a legendary Pokemon's power or lore limited to their home region? Keep in mind that the in game canon gives us both Kyogre and Lugia in multiple regions.
Click to expand...

Thinking about it I don't think there is a "master of the sea". Lugia's domain is that of the Whirl Islands, but its main duty is keeping the Winged Mirages in check. Kyogre would be the closest but it's more of just an elemental beast, focused on creating more water. Manaphy is just called the "Prince of the Sea" because its a Legendary Water-type who lives in the sea, it really has no control over the sea.
 
Pikachu315111 said:
Thinking about it I don't think there is a "master of the sea". Lugia's domain is that of the Whirl Islands, but its main duty is keeping the Winged Mirages in check. Kyogre would be the closest but it's more of just an elemental beast, focused on creating more water. Manaphy is just called the "Prince of the Sea" because its a Legendary Water-type who lives in the sea, it really has no control over the sea.
Click to expand...

So how threatening are the legends exactly?
 
Gabe said:
So how threatening are the legends exactly?
Click to expand...

Incredibly. Remember, Lugia doesn't want to control anything nor does it. It is literally a powerful Pokemon that is paired with Ho-oh. We don't KNOW Lugia's real power besides air. Ho-oh revives the dead.

Other legends like Kyogre and Groudon are shown to throw the world in peril if not controlled. And others still can fight them, even as a wild Pokemon, like Rayquaza.

And then there are those who have all of this power and are coeerced into threatening the world (Zekrom/Reshiram, Kyurem, Xerneas/Yveltal)
 
Gabe said:
So how threatening are the legends exactly?
Click to expand...
As powerful as PLOT!

It's pretty common to play statistics fast and loose in fiction. Half because "threatening" is way more complex than who is the bigger laser fish (and in real life an ounce of tactics and diplomacy is worth a pound of artillery, but that's not very fun to make an anime out of). Plus assigning power levels gives us the Dragon Ball Z problem.

So that's why Ash's Pikachu is all over the map in terms of effectiveness. Hard work don't mean a thing when drama comes a'knockin.

Plus I really doubt there's any official legendary hierarchy. If humans and animals can be super territorial and barely get along, I'd suspect legendary monsters have hardly evolved beyond petty in-fighting. And now I'm imagining a religious war between the Hoenn Rayquaza dragon clan and the Sinnoh believers in Arceus over who is the top pokegod (with the Kanto atheists still recovering from their spat with the Johto neo-Ho-ohists. He lives, he dies, he lives again!).
 
Last edited:
That is really interesting, for sure. It lends itself to the idea that the Legendaries aren't actually Gods/etc., just supremely old and powerful Pokemon who have had myths/lore projected onto them by an awestruck humanity.

e.g. Groudon and Kyogre might not be fighting to settle the dispute between rising sea levels and droughts but just because they're two big territorial beasts who met on the beach and decided to punch the shite out of each other. Rayquaza isn't a guardian, it just saw the two fighting and wanted to kill them both, in a manner similar to an eagle seeing a mouse and a fish fighting and wanting to eat them both (and don and kyg, already knowing ray as the alpha predator of the hoenn area, stopped fighting and went away to hide)
e.g. 2. arceus and the creation trio might be the closest thing to a real pantheon, being some sort of extradimensional organisms capable of teleportation/reality manipulation/etc, but it may be they aren't trying to keep anything in check, just doing whatever they please

i.e. any of the legendaries actions don't really have much meaning it's just that humans are ascribing meaning to them.

This sort of solves the idea of conflicting/overlapping hierarchies of legendaries, because there aren't actually any. Course, spinoffs like PMD and the like may beg to differ buuuttt
 
brightobject said:
This sort of solves the idea of conflicting/overlapping hierarchies of legendaries, because there aren't actually any. Course, spinoffs like PMD and the like may beg to differ buuuttt
Click to expand...
We generally try to keep theories in line with their point of origin. There's way too many contradictions between the main series games and the anime, mystery dungeon games vs main series, manga vs anime, etc.

So it's okay for Kyogre to be Broseiden god of the Brocean in one series but just a big stupid fish in another.
 
stage7_4:
On a VERY general level I think we can infer to their BST on what power level the Legendaries are compared to one another. Legendaries with 580/600 are just powerful Pokemon, some may having mystical powers but it's never anything that can affect the whole region/world. 570/580 are when Legendaries start reaching a deity level and status, they're powers are like that of gods and this power can affect an entire region easily and possibly the entire world. 700/720 are beyond that, a being who's power is unfathomable like a primordial titan or a eldritch abomination who's power not only affects the entire world but can reach out into space and across the universe or the realms of abstract concepts! Now you may think "Well how can Dialga, a Pokemon who can control time, be beaten by Lugia"? Well that's when things get iffy, though in my mind the "control time" thing is secondary as Lugia would have to let Dialga do that and it probably wouldn't because that would be stupid. At that point it'll just turn into a bashfest with both Legendaries just relentlessly attacking each other.

Pokemon is very careful about how they portray the "Pokemon Religions" to show they're kinda "cool" with other ideas as long as you're not forcing your thoughts are superior to their's. I imagine instead of being real life Bible thumping to more like:

"Look, Arceus sounds cool and all, but around these parts Rayquaza is top dog. I'm not doubting you that Arceus creating the universe and our world, you can give him our thanks for that, you Rayquaza came down from the heavens and saved our ancestor's lives. And I don't mean that figuratively; Rayquaza LITERALLY came down from the the sky and saved our ancestors from extinction by quelling Groudon and Kyogre's fighting. Not only that, it has a bond with us so great just our prayers can make it Mega Evolve. So yeah, unless Arceus moves from Sinnoh to Hoenn and saves us from a major disaster by gaining power from our prayers, Rayquaza has Hoenn's support."

"You're in the domain of Arceus now, nothing else is going to trump that. I understand your people has a strong connection with Rayquaza since he kept you guys from going extinct, but you're now standing in the center point where our entire world was created from and the rest of the universe. You're standing where beings who can control the cosmic forces of time, space, and anti-matter were created and made those things. You're standing where beings who bestowed everyone emotion, willpower, and knowledge were created and allowed us to be who we are. And all that was created by one being that now rests on the very top of our Mt. Coronet. Arceus created everything, he may not have been anymore involved than that or in any other region, but I don't think he needs to prove himself to us little humans."

You would kind of need a Rayquaza/Arceus zealot to get any interesting conflict. For Rayquaza we don't need to look any further than Zinnia, she seems pretty certain of Rayquaza's greatness, though not sure about Arceus. Maybe Cynthia? But she'd play things cool plus is a rational (if not have an odd way of going about things) adult. Hmm, maybe instead of Arceus you can do theUnova Tao Dragons; have have Zinnia argue with Iris which dragon is better, that would probably be funny.

brightobject:
Probably, like my Arcues example could be argued with though the point was that in Sinnoh those beliefs are strong and there's really no point in trying to prove their not because at the end of the day they're still connected with an absurdly powerful Pokemon. Did Arceus create the universe? Who knows! But it's still living on Mt. Coronet, the Timespace Dragons and the Lake Guardians with all their power still obey it as their master, and at the very least we saw Arcues create a Timespace Dragon egg in a trippy cutscene which I only ever took as Arceus creating and than destroying a universe (or it recreating our universe) so the player could have a Timespace Dragon.

I think with Groudon and Kyogre it was more like:

*Them going along, creating land and water until they encounter each other*
Groudon: Hey! You're covering my land with your water!
Kyogre: And you're rising land above my water!
Both: I'M GONNA BEAT YOU UP UNTIL YOU STOP!
*Start fighting causing massive destruction. Rayquaza watches from above*
Rayquaza: Oh for the love of...
*Starts hearing the people praying for someone to rescue them*
Rayquaza: Well we kind of need the humans and they're causing a lot of environmental damages so...
*Rayquaza flies down to Groudon and Kyogre*
Rayquaza: ANCIENT BRIANS! You're destroying the place and killing a lot of humans!
Both *pointing to the other*: HE STARTED IT!
Rayqauza: I DON'T CARE WHO STARTED IT IMMA FINISHING IT!

Point is, though they may not have created it they do have some control over their "element" and somehow been retroactively made a protector of it to at the very least assure on-going existence.
 
The Legends being able to beat up Legends thing is once again explained by Gameplay and Story Segregation. Technically Victini should be an auto-win for its trainer and Arceus should be able to unmake everyone, but that would be boring so they don't include that stuff.

Pikachu315111 I don't recall having anything actual religions in the games, the Legends just have really old myths about their powers. Arceus and Rayquaza having their own religions has always just been a popular thing to include in fanfiction because it's an interesting concept that isn't explored in the main series. The Draconoids are kinda close to that, but don't really seem to worship Rayquaza (at least in the traditional sense) so much as have a thing for Dragon-types in general.

Also Game Freak has gone on record stating that Arceus did create the Pokemon universe. This isn't up for debate.
 
Last edited:
Karxrida said:
Pikachu315111 I don't recall having anything actual religions in the games, the Legends just have really old myths about their powers. Arceus and Rayquaza having their own religions has always just been a popular thing to include in fanfiction because it's an interesting concept that isn't explored in the main series. The Draconoids are kinda close to that, but don't really seem to worship Rayquaza (at least in the traditional sense) so much as have a thing for Dragon-types in general.

Also Game Freak has gone on record stating that Arceus did create the Pokeon universe. This isn't up for debate.
Click to expand...

Which is why I put "Pokemon Religion" in quotes. You're right, Pokemon don't have religions but as you also said there's stuff that's close to it like the Draconids, the various myths surrounding the Legendaries, and characters in general who seem enthralled in said myths. Maybe not a religion as we know it, but at the very least they hold a strong respect and belief about a certain Pokemon. The only true religious thing I think we've ever seen in the games was the Hearthome Church and that was just there with no context. You could also say the non-Rocket team were sort of like cults.

Also the Draconids only became Dragon-type focused because of Rayquaza, a group of people saw Rayquaza save them and they came together to create the Draconids taking on the responsibility of assuring the safety of the world (or at least Hoenn's) and making sure Rayquaza is able to intervene if needed. But considering the world, or at least Hoenn, isn't threatened by end of the world destruction that often (at least in ancient times) they kind of fizzled out with only a core group remaining... and now that group also seems to be gone with Zinnia giving the Lorekeeper title to a non-Draconid and her grandmother telling her to live her own life.

brightobject said:
Yeah but how do we know GAME FREAK is telling the truth? Sounds like another conspiracy to me...
Click to expand...

Because they don't want to get into the specifics of it.

GameFreak: "Arceus created the universe. How? Why? Doesn't matter. It just did. Now why not focus on the story we're telling you and not the backstory we left lacking because its just setup."

Remember, this is just all fun speculation. So just tell yourself its just a game, you should really just relax. ~LA LA LA~
 
Last edited:
Yeah I really only brought up poke-religion as a joke. Let's just let that topic die, shall we?

But speaking of timelords, Dialga and Celebi puzzle me. Dialga is the time dragon, but said time abilities tend to be more "informed ability" (talked about but never displayed) in anything other than that one mystery dungeon game (which was pretty epic though).

Celebi however is the time deus ex, especially in the anime/movies where every single time travel plot involves Celebi in some way. It even managed to be plot important in the second mystery dungeon games, where time was Dialga's trick! And while Dialga pretty much just has time and his relationships to the rest of the Sinnoh mythos, Celebi gets all these extra powers that read like bad fan fiction. It purifies darkness (Colosseum/XD), gives life to forests, has a connection to Ho-oh's dogs/cats/gerbils (the Zoroark Movie), and you even got to time travel with it once in the main games (HG/SS Giovanni event).

I blame a lot of this on condensing the later pokemon movies to incorporate more legendaries (meaning all Dialga ever got to do was fight Palkia, Giratina, or Arceus like a rabid animal, while Celebi got two movies with an actual role rather than glorified cameo), which started a trickle down effect making Dialga itself less important than being apart of a trinity. Celebi came before this so it gets to be the show-off.

Is there something about Celebi's origins or inspirations that suggest it being such a mary sue in the anime? Like is it based off of Kaguya or something? Because I look at the design and all I think about is absinthe.
 
  • Like
Reactions: JES
stage7_4:
Dialga isn't a Time Lord, it can actively control the flow of time. Celebi is a Time Lord as it can only travel through time.

I think it's only informed for the player because, well, I don't think Dialga is going to risk messing with the timestream because the trainer it allowed to catch it wants to go back in time. You can use it to battle, but that's all it'll do. However in other places we've seen it use different time powers like in Mystery Dungeon the catastrophe in one of them was that Dialga froze time, in the same game it also takes the player from their timeline and puts them in another, and in the Shaymin movie it traps Giratina in a time warp preventing it from leaving the Distortion World. Also I always personally saw Roar of Time has it using its time power to make your various bodily functions de-sync so their going off their own time.

Celebi is a nature spirit, if anything time traveling is a tool it protects the forest. That would explain why it can cause nature to grow (I suppose you could say that it's using is time power to do that, but I think that's just it being a nature spirit) and is friends with all living things thus can purify. Also it time traveling with someone else is just an obvious extension to the time travel power. And if it is using its time power to make things grow or open hearts, it seems to only be lateral and to a specific object (it's either moving the object forward in time (making plants grow "faster") or reversing it in time (Celebi is taking the Pokemon's body back to a moment where it's heart wasn't closed)).

And Dialga is too busy guarding time to get involved with the life of mortals; Celebi though is a kind nature spirit to it intervening when it can is something it would do.

Also being part of a trio does mean it has some restriction. Why should Dialga get all the attention when Palkia and Giratina is just as powerful? Heck, I'm surprised Palkia's role in the Mystery Dungeon game was so small despite Dialga being the main antagonist!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top