I know people will disagree with me but i do not think that gallade should drop.Msab checks Medi too and Tornadus T beats MMedi too and atleast gallade has ice punch for TChomp and TT so they cant switch in as easily.There is also a good speed tier in gallade and being able to Ice Punch and knock off(which MMedi doesnt have) at latios/as and able to beat stuff like landot with IP is very valuable.(This is my first time talking in the Viability Rankings so don't give me too much hate)
Mega-Gallade: B+ -> B
I honestly agree with this for a couple of reasons. I pratically never see Mega Gallade unless its Low Ladder. It's also outclassed by other physical fighting types for a couple of examples: Conkeldurr is good at luring and has better bulk, Mega Lopunny is much faster in speed and gets Scrappy being able to touch Ghost types, Breloom gets Technician boosted attacks, and can Spore, and Mega Heracross gets Skill Link making it a threatening Wallbreaker. Mega Gallade does have good bulk, and speed; but I would rather just use Mega Medicham instead. Mega Medicham get's Pure Power a ability that doubles attack making it like a free Swords Dance and hits everything like a truck; meanwhile Gallade has to setup a SD wasting a turn to get to Mega Medicham's power, and the fact that Unaware exist gives Mega Gallade have a harder time to use. The metagame is pretty harsh on Mega Gallade, with all the Tornadus-Therian, Mega Sableye, Clefable, Skarmory, and Tank Chomps which all Counter/Check it. Hell, I think it should go to B- imo, I can't give too much hate on the poor fellow, his design is pretty badass, but that's about it.Let the flame war comments begin!
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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
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Pure/Huge Power is a crappy ability, because it is effectively no ability. It is the equivalent to a stat boost with no extra effect. There is no difference between a medicham with pure power and a medicham with 200-something attack. In fact, the latter would have an ability at its disposal.
In reality, huge/pure power are most relatable to slow start, defeatist, etc. in that they balance out your high base stats with a detrimental effect. In this case, in exchange for that 200-something attack, Nintendo took away Medicham's ability to have an ability (same for azu, etc.).
In any case, Gallade should drop. It is surprisingly scary in certain situations (due to its 110 speed as opposed to 108), but those situations are rare. I don't know why skill swap stopped receiving hype, though. If anything, it is a better idea now, allowing it to combat (most) sableye and quagsire simultaneously, and that can be a serious struggle in many cases.
I don't think that swampert should drop 2 subranks--perhaps 1 is more appropriate. Can I ask the reasoning behind this nom? In any case, people compare it to kingdra and kabutops of course (I certainly did), but swampert is just outright better in practice, I think. Having such a bulky sweeper with that great typing is such a boon for rain offense. It hardly compromises on Kabutops' power, but it gains a super amount of bulk and longevity. It is fairly uniaue go fast mons because it cannot be stopped by thundy/klefki, bullet punch, ice shard (all of the ice shardsa are weak since no technician), and it is bulky enough to take a mach punch/brave bird comfortably a lot of the time. Power up punch gives it surprising utility, serving as a way to dent switching like ferro while also giving it the power boost to gear through a lot of typical checks. I am moreso arguing for its dominance over other rain sweepers here, but that comes with the implication that swampert is as good as rain (and should be ranked accordingly).
In reality, huge/pure power are most relatable to slow start, defeatist, etc. in that they balance out your high base stats with a detrimental effect. In this case, in exchange for that 200-something attack, Nintendo took away Medicham's ability to have an ability (same for azu, etc.).
In any case, Gallade should drop. It is surprisingly scary in certain situations (due to its 110 speed as opposed to 108), but those situations are rare. I don't know why skill swap stopped receiving hype, though. If anything, it is a better idea now, allowing it to combat (most) sableye and quagsire simultaneously, and that can be a serious struggle in many cases.
I don't think that swampert should drop 2 subranks--perhaps 1 is more appropriate. Can I ask the reasoning behind this nom? In any case, people compare it to kingdra and kabutops of course (I certainly did), but swampert is just outright better in practice, I think. Having such a bulky sweeper with that great typing is such a boon for rain offense. It hardly compromises on Kabutops' power, but it gains a super amount of bulk and longevity. It is fairly uniaue go fast mons because it cannot be stopped by thundy/klefki, bullet punch, ice shard (all of the ice shardsa are weak since no technician), and it is bulky enough to take a mach punch/brave bird comfortably a lot of the time. Power up punch gives it surprising utility, serving as a way to dent switching like ferro while also giving it the power boost to gear through a lot of typical checks. I am moreso arguing for its dominance over other rain sweepers here, but that comes with the implication that swampert is as good as rain (and should be ranked accordingly).
Gallade can't beat Sableye regardless unless it runs CC / SD / Skill Swap / Stone Edge, at which point you're better off using Lum Berry Terrakion.
: Mega Slowbro really isn't on the same level as anything in A rank, especially given the opportunity cost and that, unless you build round it, it's not something you really end up using given that Slowbro provides most of what it does without costing a Mega slot. It's still a very potent anti-offense tool, but given that Serperior is getting more and more common on offense, it can't steamroll the playstyle like it used to be able to. I don't think it should share the same rank as Regular Slowbro which is not only significantly easier to slot on teams, but even if you keep MBro unevolved, it really misses the passive leftovers recovery or chip Rocky Helmet damage, so isn't as good a standalone wall.
: I wouldn't put Togekiss in A- based on the fact that it's kinda lacking against offensive teams (or at least NP is) and is pretty easy to check, most Electrics and certain Steels make pretty quick work of it, weakness to SR is kinda crippling and compromises its ability to switch in on stuff, the lack of speed prevents the offensive ste from being as threatening as it wants to be and defensive sets are pretty outclassed. It does tear apart certain balance and stall teams, but I'd say it's more on the level of Victini and Terrakion than Jirachi or Alakazam just based on its consistency and performance against multiple playstyles. Btw I think Aura Sphere is a lot better than Heal Bell on he NP set since without coverage it relies way too much on hax to break past certain Pokemon.
: Celebi is something I find myself using less and less and I can totally see it moving to B+, it's just too easy to pressure to reliably handle the range of threats it's supposed to deal with, I often feel like I'm swicthing into Keldeo, BPing out once and the opponent sends in YZard or whatever, and then I can't reliably switch it into Keldeo anymore because he's just going to Icy Wind and 2HKO it. That being said, TWave sets do seem pretty good and kinda fix Celebi's "easy to take advanatge of" factor. Lure sets are cool as well but can't cover everything, and once your opponent figures out what you're doing he can usually handle Celebi fairy easily. it's a customisable Pokemon by all means, but it's rarely the first choice and tends to be used to patch up holes in flawed teams and often doesn't do that great of a job at it.
: I think at this point this thing is pretty much on par wth Regular Alakazam honestly. Gengar is certainly harder to switch into and has a more spammable STAB which makes it stronger against balanced teams, but Alakazam's higher speed gives it an edge against Offense, especially teams which use Scarf TTar, and it's not excactly easy to switch into Zam if it's running a Life Orb either, while Sash doubles up as an emergency sweep stopper with Thunder Wave. Neither of these provide much defensively, the only fairy Gengar switches into is Cleable and most carry TWave anyway, and it can't come in on most Ground-types either besides Scarf Lando-T which has really been losing popularity for a while now. I'd say a drop is warranted for Gengar, it's just not the threat it was a few months ago
: Don't drop Pinsir btw, not sure if this is really a discussion point but it's still a very potent wallbreaker, especially given recent trends like drop in Rotom usage and the switch to SpD Skarm which can't really beat it, being a relatively Goth-proof wallbreaker is a really nice thing since that means it can just curbstomp most stall teams, and though the popularity of Garchomp, Hippowdon and fast Electrics is a problem, those are pretty easy to wear down, excpet for Hippo I gues but that thing literally needs to be at full to eat up a +2 Return, especially if it runs more SpD EVS for Electrics. Quick Attack is a really nice thing to have since it improves its matchup against offense by finishing off weakened would-be revenge killers, in fact that combined with its pretty high speed for a wallbreaker makes it more effective against offensive teams than most of it's peers. It's a solid mon, don't drop it.
Volcarona is defenitely a lot less splashable than anything currently in A-, most likely you aren't using this unless you're building around it. While it is a pretty potent sweeper, it's checked by some dangerous threats like MAltaria, XZard and MDiancie if running Bug Buzz, and the fact that most offensive Pokemon in OU can hit it really hard kinda limits its setup opportunities to defensive Pokemon. Overall I feel like it's more at home in B+, which is mostly populated by threatening Pokemon which are hard to fit on teams and require some level of support, which also describes Volcarona pretty well.
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Drop Mega-Slowbro to A-: Agree
Massive competition from its base form because of Regenerator plus the possibility to run another defensive oriented Mega; A- is optimal in my opinion because of the Mega counterpart has, at least, the interesting niche of avoiding critical hits if has 2 Calm Mind to rectify his SDef becoming a fearsome tank.
Drop Celebi to B+: Agree
Celebi has good stats -albeit unfocused- and a nice movepool between attacking moves and support moves. Its typing, even though it is sometimes useful for its Psychic STAB, is middling with 7 weaknesses which make this pokemon unreliable at times. I think that B+ is the right and the only solid spot possible for Celebi: good pokemon but is weak to common moves and not to mention the lure moves from the monsters this Pixie is supposed to counter thus limiting its bulk/viability even if you are not prepared specifically to defeat it. A- is not that far (but only if the meta is very kind), but B+ is ideal for a monster with good movepool but problems to take hits.
Massive competition from its base form because of Regenerator plus the possibility to run another defensive oriented Mega; A- is optimal in my opinion because of the Mega counterpart has, at least, the interesting niche of avoiding critical hits if has 2 Calm Mind to rectify his SDef becoming a fearsome tank.
Drop Celebi to B+: Agree
Celebi has good stats -albeit unfocused- and a nice movepool between attacking moves and support moves. Its typing, even though it is sometimes useful for its Psychic STAB, is middling with 7 weaknesses which make this pokemon unreliable at times. I think that B+ is the right and the only solid spot possible for Celebi: good pokemon but is weak to common moves and not to mention the lure moves from the monsters this Pixie is supposed to counter thus limiting its bulk/viability even if you are not prepared specifically to defeat it. A- is not that far (but only if the meta is very kind), but B+ is ideal for a monster with good movepool but problems to take hits.
Slowbro-Mega A -> A
As far as I am concerned, Slowbro-Mega should drop. To use Slowbro-Mega, you must build around it. I tried it anyway and it was underwhelming. It doesn't have good synergy with hazard remover. It has a little case of 4 slots syndrome. If it lacks Rest it is very prone to status like poison. And if it is the RestTalker set, it doesn't have Psyshock (can't break bof stall). The utility provided by Slowbro-Mega and the team support that it needs makes it A- in my eyes.
As far as I am concerned, Slowbro-Mega should drop. To use Slowbro-Mega, you must build around it. I tried it anyway and it was underwhelming. It doesn't have good synergy with hazard remover. It has a little case of 4 slots syndrome. If it lacks Rest it is very prone to status like poison. And if it is the RestTalker set, it doesn't have Psyshock (can't break bof stall). The utility provided by Slowbro-Mega and the team support that it needs makes it A- in my eyes.
You should almost always run a cleric if you're running megabro, which means that you don't need to run restalk (which isn't really reliable recovery), and the only moveslots that it could potentially regret missing are iron defense, which isnt really needed vs 90% of physical attackers because bro's defense is so high already, and twave, which is more for team support than Slowbro's actual sweeping capabilities. If the other 4 slots on your team get 6-0'd by hoopa u, then it's your fault that megabro has no chance to sweep.
I, personally, don't agree with the rise of togekiss. It faces a ton of competition from other fairies, is weak to stealth rocks, and is usually running some trashy strategy that involves paraflinching an entire team to death. Like almost every other fairy, it get mauled by Mmeta, but unlike other fairies, it can't take on Rotom-W, thunderus, and other assorted electric types. It's slow, lacks powerful stab moves, and relies on a lot of luck to win out in a lot of matchups. I suppose it's NP set is okay against stall, and thunder wave+air slash is actually decently viable, but I don't think that makes up for its shortcomings. Crippling weaknesses to ice, rock, electric, steel, and poison hinder its effectiveness against Pokemon that it would otherwise counter, like Mega Venu. Its bulk is very good, but if you can hit it on its uninvested side, it's actually pretty easy to manage for offense. So, no, a rise isn't warranted for this fairy.
Mega Gallade has more staying power than Medicham or Lopunny and you don't have to worry about speed ties with base 100s. I disagree with the drop.
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Volcarona should not drop. With Magic Bounce users like M-Sableye and M-Diancie and reliable spinners like starmie, hazards aren't too hard to keep off of the field. Volcarona 6-0s a LOT OF teams after a single turn of set up. For anyone who does not believe me, I will post replays against high level players to support my claim.
Depending on team structure, Volc can ran Lum Berry or Passhao Berry; both of which allow it to set up on a plethora of common Pokemon that would otherwise serve as many teams "answer" to Volcarona.
Both offensive and bulky sets are good in their own right, but I prefer the offensive set. Modest can even be used over timid as it can outspeed M-Alakazam after a QD, as well as 2hko standard unaware Clefable even after leftovers and protect.
In my opinion, and I am confident that a lot of people will agree, bulky offense is the best play style at the moment. Volcarona can set up on and tear apart a large portion of bulky offense and balance teams after a single turn of set up, as well as destroy stall if Chansey is removed.
Volcarona should stay A-.
Depending on team structure, Volc can ran Lum Berry or Passhao Berry; both of which allow it to set up on a plethora of common Pokemon that would otherwise serve as many teams "answer" to Volcarona.
Both offensive and bulky sets are good in their own right, but I prefer the offensive set. Modest can even be used over timid as it can outspeed M-Alakazam after a QD, as well as 2hko standard unaware Clefable even after leftovers and protect.
In my opinion, and I am confident that a lot of people will agree, bulky offense is the best play style at the moment. Volcarona can set up on and tear apart a large portion of bulky offense and balance teams after a single turn of set up, as well as destroy stall if Chansey is removed.
Volcarona should stay A-.
We just had gengar drop, and with lots of discussion. In my mind A is alright, A- is too much. Gengar is far, far more consistent than Politoed... It's also far more versatile with the ability to hind offensive switch ins with Will O Wisp. The stallbreaker set isn't that favourable, but it can easily be replaced with something like Will o wisp over taunt. Strongly against the drop. Mega Slowbro should drop, but it pains me. It's just an amazing pokemon the metagame trends hurt it so much, Thundurus, Serperior and Hoopa-U demolish it. So I guess a drop to A- is warranted
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Gengar: A -> A-: Disagree
I am wholeheartedly against this. I am being 100% serious when I say that seeing a Gengar scares me. Even if I have a pursuit trapper like Bisharp or ScarfTar, I don't ever look foreward to having to deal with it; this is because it is just completely impossible to reliably switch in on, and I am always hesitant to send out my Pursuit trapper for fear of having my world rocked by Focus Blast or Will-O-Wisp or Substitute. Sure, the abundance of dark-types is problematic for it, but enough to push it down? I don't think so, as it is capable of beating most Dark-types if it gets a sub up (although Hyperspace Hole/Fury beat out sub, which is annoying), it deters its counters switches with Wisp and Focus Miss, and it has huge utility in almost every match it is brought to. I have only ever come across it not taking a major toll on the match once, and its ability to escape from Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are making it significantly more valuable support for offensive and balanced teams to have. Sure, it is frail, and a single misprediction v.s. a Pursuit trapper can send it back to whichever Clefable's grave it came from, but it has a good speed tier, is so hard for anything that's not blob-shaped to switch in on, its mediocre bulk is easily accounted for by its 3 immunities and good set of resistances (allowing it to easily switch in on a lot of 'mons - which is certainly more than you can say for most other frail attackers like Alakazam or Weavile) and it is heavily splashable. Finally, it is definitely more consistently great than Politoed or MegaCham etc. are.
Mega Slowbro: A -> A-
Not used/seen it enough to comment
Togekiss: B+ -> A-
Same as M-Bro
Celebi: A- -> B+: Neutral
I'm completely neutral on Celebi, as I can see the arguments for both keeping it up and pushing it down. I like the utility it has for a number of teams (Perish Song Celebi is so fun to use, and it has a huge range of other supportive options to choose from), but metagame trends aren't all that kind to it.
Volcarona: A- -> B+: Disagree
This is such a threatening sweeper, and it is one of the easier ones to reach a point at which it can sweep. Whether it is bulky, Lum, Passho or LO, it can very easily sweep the opposing team with only moderate support (a hazard clearer, something to deal with what its choice of coverage doesn't and something to beat Talonflame is all that is needed really (half of these roles are done by Wobbuffet or Dugtrio, which helps)) and it has one of the most threatening typings in the game at this time. Additionally, its ability to beat out sub (most notably from Alakazam) with Bug Buzz means that they can't just sub on everything they force out - which is big considering how dumb they can be to combat sometimes, and its typing means it has an easy time sweeping v.s. a big proportion of teams. You can't sleep on it, and Quiver Dance makes it more threatening than the majority of sweepers, and it is easier than ever to deal with hazards - giving it an easier time to come in than ever before. Finally, the prevelance of darks and the offensive nature of the metagame leave it in a position where it has a very good matchup v.s. a large number of teams. STAB Bug Buzz and Fire Blast in conjunction with Quiver Dance let it rip through such a large portion of the metagame that it is just insane. Of course, I respect it is far from flawless (it struggles if hazards do get onto the field, for example), but I think that the current meta is kind enough to Volc for it to not drop.
Mega-Gallade: B+ -> B: Agree
Mega Gallade is ass. While it certainly has a nice speed tier, it just faces so much competition from other fightings (some of which aren't complete dead weight v.s. Sableye due to things like STAB Stone Edge). I personally think that it should be B- (I'd definitely put it on the level of Lucario, who I'd argue is fractionally better in the meta due to ExtremeSpeed, hitting M-Sab hard with Iron Tail and not taking up a mega slot), but I can understand why the ranking team is hesitant to do so.
Mega-Swampert: B+ -> B-: Agree
Wholehartedly agree. Not having Swift Swim on turn 1 is completely detrimental to this thing, and there are much better choices for rain mega than the thing which has its job done well enough by Kabutops anyway. Why would you use this thing over Mega Scizor (who gives a slow u-turn, reduces pressure on Swift Swimmers with SD, lures Hippowdon and MegaZard-Y so as to allow for instant re-setting of the weather and "loses" its sole 4x weakness), Mega Pinsir (who takes on a large number of big threats to rain such as Ferrothorn, Celebi and Gastro while also reducing the pressure on Politoed to keep the rain up with Quick Attack) or something else (Heracross is of note for its ability to do Pinsir's job against different archetypes, and so is Man 'cause Thunder+Volt Switch is godly)? There are simply better megas to use, and its not like any rain team actually misses having this thing considering that there are other, better swift swimmers to choose from. It just faces too much competition for a teamslot tbch.
I am wholeheartedly against this. I am being 100% serious when I say that seeing a Gengar scares me. Even if I have a pursuit trapper like Bisharp or ScarfTar, I don't ever look foreward to having to deal with it; this is because it is just completely impossible to reliably switch in on, and I am always hesitant to send out my Pursuit trapper for fear of having my world rocked by Focus Blast or Will-O-Wisp or Substitute. Sure, the abundance of dark-types is problematic for it, but enough to push it down? I don't think so, as it is capable of beating most Dark-types if it gets a sub up (although Hyperspace Hole/Fury beat out sub, which is annoying), it deters its counters switches with Wisp and Focus Miss, and it has huge utility in almost every match it is brought to. I have only ever come across it not taking a major toll on the match once, and its ability to escape from Gothitelle and Wobbuffet are making it significantly more valuable support for offensive and balanced teams to have. Sure, it is frail, and a single misprediction v.s. a Pursuit trapper can send it back to whichever Clefable's grave it came from, but it has a good speed tier, is so hard for anything that's not blob-shaped to switch in on, its mediocre bulk is easily accounted for by its 3 immunities and good set of resistances (allowing it to easily switch in on a lot of 'mons - which is certainly more than you can say for most other frail attackers like Alakazam or Weavile) and it is heavily splashable. Finally, it is definitely more consistently great than Politoed or MegaCham etc. are.
Mega Slowbro: A -> A-
Not used/seen it enough to comment
Togekiss: B+ -> A-
Same as M-Bro
Celebi: A- -> B+: Neutral
I'm completely neutral on Celebi, as I can see the arguments for both keeping it up and pushing it down. I like the utility it has for a number of teams (Perish Song Celebi is so fun to use, and it has a huge range of other supportive options to choose from), but metagame trends aren't all that kind to it.
Volcarona: A- -> B+: Disagree
This is such a threatening sweeper, and it is one of the easier ones to reach a point at which it can sweep. Whether it is bulky, Lum, Passho or LO, it can very easily sweep the opposing team with only moderate support (a hazard clearer, something to deal with what its choice of coverage doesn't and something to beat Talonflame is all that is needed really (half of these roles are done by Wobbuffet or Dugtrio, which helps)) and it has one of the most threatening typings in the game at this time. Additionally, its ability to beat out sub (most notably from Alakazam) with Bug Buzz means that they can't just sub on everything they force out - which is big considering how dumb they can be to combat sometimes, and its typing means it has an easy time sweeping v.s. a big proportion of teams. You can't sleep on it, and Quiver Dance makes it more threatening than the majority of sweepers, and it is easier than ever to deal with hazards - giving it an easier time to come in than ever before. Finally, the prevelance of darks and the offensive nature of the metagame leave it in a position where it has a very good matchup v.s. a large number of teams. STAB Bug Buzz and Fire Blast in conjunction with Quiver Dance let it rip through such a large portion of the metagame that it is just insane. Of course, I respect it is far from flawless (it struggles if hazards do get onto the field, for example), but I think that the current meta is kind enough to Volc for it to not drop.
Mega-Gallade: B+ -> B: Agree
Mega Gallade is ass. While it certainly has a nice speed tier, it just faces so much competition from other fightings (some of which aren't complete dead weight v.s. Sableye due to things like STAB Stone Edge). I personally think that it should be B- (I'd definitely put it on the level of Lucario, who I'd argue is fractionally better in the meta due to ExtremeSpeed, hitting M-Sab hard with Iron Tail and not taking up a mega slot), but I can understand why the ranking team is hesitant to do so.
Mega-Swampert: B+ -> B-: Agree
Wholehartedly agree. Not having Swift Swim on turn 1 is completely detrimental to this thing, and there are much better choices for rain mega than the thing which has its job done well enough by Kabutops anyway. Why would you use this thing over Mega Scizor (who gives a slow u-turn, reduces pressure on Swift Swimmers with SD, lures Hippowdon and MegaZard-Y so as to allow for instant re-setting of the weather and "loses" its sole 4x weakness), Mega Pinsir (who takes on a large number of big threats to rain such as Ferrothorn, Celebi and Gastro while also reducing the pressure on Politoed to keep the rain up with Quick Attack) or something else (Heracross is of note for its ability to do Pinsir's job against different archetypes, and so is Man 'cause Thunder+Volt Switch is godly)? There are simply better megas to use, and its not like any rain team actually misses having this thing considering that there are other, better swift swimmers to choose from. It just faces too much competition for a teamslot tbch.
This post is full of nonsense, well to be honest i stopped after the part that it says that Huge Power is a crappy ability, I was thinking in making a full post of why power boosting abilities are some of the best in the game, but taking into account that it should be obvious leads to the conclusion that it would not matter to explain it, aside from that if you put a mon with 200+ attack with another ability( a good one, like another power boosting ability) it probably would go to Ubers, so it would be "worse" for that mon because it would not be able to be competitive.
I'm not arguing that it should be lower, but can someone explain to me why M-Sableye became s-rank? Is it just because it is a staple on stall teams and can also fit onto most other types of teams easily? Every time I've ever faced M-Sableye it seemed to be kind of dead weight that just ends up burning something or knocking off and then getting 2hko'd, maybe I've just been facing people that use it wrong or I use teams with strong wallbreakers idk though
Fyi I'd give or take 5-15 minutes before replying to anything. I tend to delete a lot of comments like the last one giving more of an analysis summary than a reason based on meta changes. It's a thing that happens a lot so there isnt much point in replying to a comment that will be deleted.
Gengar: A -> A-
Gengar has its fair share of flaws, but it's something that I can just not see in A- at all. It's one of the hardest special attackers to switch into in the entire tier because you can't tell what its running on the 4th slot, if it's Icy Wind, Torn-T and Gliscor aren't touching it, if it's Sub or Wisp, TTar, Bisharp and Weavile have a way worse matchup against it because they get crippled or give Gengar a free Focus Blast etc. It's a great mon and despite only having 110 speed, it's pretty annoying for a bunch of offensive teams too as the spike immunity and perfect coverage is a complete bitch to play around, and balance / stall are still common, which it can screw over a lot, its also a stallbreaker that can't be trapped by goth (!). Everyone else pretty much covered it, but nah Gengar doesn't deserve A-.
Togekiss: B+ -> A-
FUCK STALL
Celebi: A- -> B+
Yeah I don't like this thing at all, I was gonna bring it up in the Shaymin nom but I decided I'd come back to Celebi later. It checks and beats a load of stuff and is capable of luring in tons of shit with offensive sets, but I don't think Celebi deserves A- anymore. Current metagame trends are absolutely awful for it (Dark Spam, Torn-T, actual usage of Signal Beam, and a bunch of other really common stuff that completely shuts down the standard defensive set like Scizor/Heatran.) It's kinda shit and a drop to B+ would be pretty reasonable.
Volcarona: A- -> B+
Volc is great. It's such a scary mon because the item it runs really restricts your ways of revenging it or slowing it down, Passho means it can't be stopped by Azu / Scarf Keldeo while Lum shuts out Twave Pranksters. Its Stealth Rock weakness isn't that crippling because hazard removal is still the easiest it has ever been etc etc. It's a really scary mon and it just crushes unprepared teams. Altaria declining in usage and Scizor rising in usage is nice too because there's less need for HP Ice and it frees up coverage for Latis / Heatran. Keep it A-
Mega-Gallade: B+ -> B
this thing blows
Mega-Swampert: B+ -> B-
so does this one
Gengar has its fair share of flaws, but it's something that I can just not see in A- at all. It's one of the hardest special attackers to switch into in the entire tier because you can't tell what its running on the 4th slot, if it's Icy Wind, Torn-T and Gliscor aren't touching it, if it's Sub or Wisp, TTar, Bisharp and Weavile have a way worse matchup against it because they get crippled or give Gengar a free Focus Blast etc. It's a great mon and despite only having 110 speed, it's pretty annoying for a bunch of offensive teams too as the spike immunity and perfect coverage is a complete bitch to play around, and balance / stall are still common, which it can screw over a lot, its also a stallbreaker that can't be trapped by goth (!). Everyone else pretty much covered it, but nah Gengar doesn't deserve A-.
Togekiss: B+ -> A-
FUCK STALL
Celebi: A- -> B+
Yeah I don't like this thing at all, I was gonna bring it up in the Shaymin nom but I decided I'd come back to Celebi later. It checks and beats a load of stuff and is capable of luring in tons of shit with offensive sets, but I don't think Celebi deserves A- anymore. Current metagame trends are absolutely awful for it (Dark Spam, Torn-T, actual usage of Signal Beam, and a bunch of other really common stuff that completely shuts down the standard defensive set like Scizor/Heatran.) It's kinda shit and a drop to B+ would be pretty reasonable.
Volcarona: A- -> B+
Volc is great. It's such a scary mon because the item it runs really restricts your ways of revenging it or slowing it down, Passho means it can't be stopped by Azu / Scarf Keldeo while Lum shuts out Twave Pranksters. Its Stealth Rock weakness isn't that crippling because hazard removal is still the easiest it has ever been etc etc. It's a really scary mon and it just crushes unprepared teams. Altaria declining in usage and Scizor rising in usage is nice too because there's less need for HP Ice and it frees up coverage for Latis / Heatran. Keep it A-
Mega-Gallade: B+ -> B
this thing blows
Mega-Swampert: B+ -> B-
so does this one
If you put another ability on Regigigas or Slaking, they will also probably go to ubers (the point being that they would be way more viable than they are now). It then follows that their abilities are purposely limiting.
If you put another ability on a (stat-adjusted) medicham, then it will probably go to ubers. It then follows that Medicham's ability (pure power) is purposely limiting.
An ability that merely gives a stat boost is hardly an ability; it is a base stat adjustment. If you took any pokemon, replaced its ability with huge power, and adjusted its attack stat proportionally (see: azumaril's initially terrible attack), it would be worse off than when it started (because it does not have an ability). Would you rather have a huge power azumarill with no additional ability or an azumarill with base 150 attack and an ability to supplement?
You arguing that adding an ability is worse for a mon because it would move it up a tier is comical. The reason why it is moving up is because it is a better mon than before.
I don't see why it is so difficult to grasp.
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Request: If the following is considered part of discussion to remove, may I request only the part pertaining to that discussion be removed?
AM Edit: I do this anyways lol
Sableye also doesn't have the typical role compression issue of being outperformed by other mons objectively at the role. The Utility set comes out on top against practically every Rock setter bar maybe Heatran, depending on if you're evaluating it as keeping Hazards off vs. neutering the mon itself. Between Spin-Blocking and walling, getting hazards up while Sableye's alive is a crapshoot. WoW spreads passive damage and deals with Physical Sweepers, and Sableye on the whole has numerous methods to annoy Pokemon, making it hard to take advantage of as most bulky mons do. There's obviously more, but these are the most immediately obvious benefits.
As far as Gengar, I say stay in A. I will be the first to highlight Gengar's flaws given it's one of my favorite Pokemon. It's bulk is beyond pathetic, barely able to survive anything bar 4x resists or immunities from anything intending damage over Utility (Keldeo's Scald vs Alomomola's Scald). His Attack power is good, but not great without a LO, relying on chip damage or status for Hex to allow him to break mons on his other Stallbreaker sets. Finally, the rise of Sableye, more fat grounds, and competing wallbreakers make Gengar a good option, but not a primary option any more for dismantling cores due to things he can't quite get past as well as things that get past the same and more and/or have less prominent problems.
All those considered, though, I think that's what dropped him to A from A+ already. Gengar's Speed and power in tandem are still nothing to sneeze at, having what I believe to be one of the best combinations of movepool, speed, and attack simultaneously without some opportunity cost such as the Mega Slot for things like Lopunny or Manectric. But that's just one of Gengar's sets. Whenever I face Gengar, it's a gamble counterplaying it since I have to identify the set, and then be careful predicting around it once I do. Gengar's movepool offers phenomenal coverage alongside STAB Shadow Ball, as well as plenty of utility options he or a teammate can exploit. He can break Cores through WoW + Hex, Taunt, SubSplit, SubDisable, or just through sheer power in some cases.
Gengar's typing + Ability also does it favors both offensively and defensively. Besides its STAB combination, it has immunity to two priority types in Extremespeed and Mach Punch, as well as a resistance to Fairy, bug (Utility U-Turns), a Ground Immunity (no Spikes), and Toxic. The sum of these I find in practice makes Gengar harder to wear down by means besides its own LO and stray burns, since the balance/defensive teams it does well against rely on hazard stacking for a good deal of damage. It does leave him vulnerable to Sucker Punch and Pursuit, but the former is mitigated by his Utility options (WoW in particular) and the latter by the trouble most trappers have switching into him and being able to risk the play the next turn.
All in all, I don't think Gengar has gotten less effective, just that other mons have greater incentive to compete with him than before for his role. I feel the drop to A encompassed that, but a drop to A- would entail Gengar in his own right has gotten noticeably worse at his role.
AM Edit: I do this anyways lol
The conclusion I draw (do not hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong) is because Mega Sableye's Role compression is big for Stall Teams with all the powerful wallbreakers running around, putting Teamslots at a premium to try and handle all of them while still managing the other important Jobs.
Sableye also doesn't have the typical role compression issue of being outperformed by other mons objectively at the role. The Utility set comes out on top against practically every Rock setter bar maybe Heatran, depending on if you're evaluating it as keeping Hazards off vs. neutering the mon itself. Between Spin-Blocking and walling, getting hazards up while Sableye's alive is a crapshoot. WoW spreads passive damage and deals with Physical Sweepers, and Sableye on the whole has numerous methods to annoy Pokemon, making it hard to take advantage of as most bulky mons do. There's obviously more, but these are the most immediately obvious benefits.
As far as Gengar, I say stay in A. I will be the first to highlight Gengar's flaws given it's one of my favorite Pokemon. It's bulk is beyond pathetic, barely able to survive anything bar 4x resists or immunities from anything intending damage over Utility (Keldeo's Scald vs Alomomola's Scald). His Attack power is good, but not great without a LO, relying on chip damage or status for Hex to allow him to break mons on his other Stallbreaker sets. Finally, the rise of Sableye, more fat grounds, and competing wallbreakers make Gengar a good option, but not a primary option any more for dismantling cores due to things he can't quite get past as well as things that get past the same and more and/or have less prominent problems.
All those considered, though, I think that's what dropped him to A from A+ already. Gengar's Speed and power in tandem are still nothing to sneeze at, having what I believe to be one of the best combinations of movepool, speed, and attack simultaneously without some opportunity cost such as the Mega Slot for things like Lopunny or Manectric. But that's just one of Gengar's sets. Whenever I face Gengar, it's a gamble counterplaying it since I have to identify the set, and then be careful predicting around it once I do. Gengar's movepool offers phenomenal coverage alongside STAB Shadow Ball, as well as plenty of utility options he or a teammate can exploit. He can break Cores through WoW + Hex, Taunt, SubSplit, SubDisable, or just through sheer power in some cases.
Gengar's typing + Ability also does it favors both offensively and defensively. Besides its STAB combination, it has immunity to two priority types in Extremespeed and Mach Punch, as well as a resistance to Fairy, bug (Utility U-Turns), a Ground Immunity (no Spikes), and Toxic. The sum of these I find in practice makes Gengar harder to wear down by means besides its own LO and stray burns, since the balance/defensive teams it does well against rely on hazard stacking for a good deal of damage. It does leave him vulnerable to Sucker Punch and Pursuit, but the former is mitigated by his Utility options (WoW in particular) and the latter by the trouble most trappers have switching into him and being able to risk the play the next turn.
All in all, I don't think Gengar has gotten less effective, just that other mons have greater incentive to compete with him than before for his role. I feel the drop to A encompassed that, but a drop to A- would entail Gengar in his own right has gotten noticeably worse at his role.
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I don't understand this argument. Yeah, if you put another ability on a stat-adjusted mon that normally has Pure Power it'd be better. Obviously. That's like saying that Tough Claws is a bad ability because Zard X with 180 base attack and another ability would be better. Pure Power is a huge adjustment in BST. I seriously can't tell if you're trolling or not. If you are, hah! You got me!
Mega Gallade: Despite it being my favorite mon, it's just so hard to use. It's fast, but just slow enough not to outspeed the most relevant tier. It's strong, but weak enough to be stopped by most walls if it doesn't set up. It has some bulk, but nowhere near enough to set up consistently. It just falls in the middle of all these niches -- with an ability that had, like, any use at all, it'd probably be great, but as it stands it doesn't really fill one single niche you can't use another Fighting type for. I would prefer if it didn't drop, but I'd understand if it did. That said, let's not go any lower than B. The hype train for M-cham as a counterweight was bad enough.
They aren't. Feraligatr, Mega Gallade, and Dragonite are a lot easier to wall than Mega Pinsir, and lack the ability to put significant immediate pressure on the opposing team. Mega Latias is meh and is not a Pokemon designed to be threatening. It can use bulky Calm Mind sets, but most teams are prepared to handle it anyways and you would really wonder why you would be using a Mega Slot for Latias, above all things, for its Mega doesn't really have much to offer in the metagame that is needed.
Sorry about the double post, but this belongs as an entirely different post (this is from a PM):
The utility it provides for offense is not as significant as it used to be with Spikes being more valuable than they were when Latias dropped to A Rank. While Latias can function as an Electric check, most Electrics will be paired with teammates that can take advantage of Latias anyways (not as necessary as Keldeo or Zard Y, but still important). In reality, the only thing Latias possesses right now that is valuable is Healing Wish, since the value of Rapid Spin is in higher demand.
The natural bulk it has over Latios really isn't that relevant either because Latias still fails to beat most of the Pokemon it is supposed to check. As stated before, most teams featuring mons checked by Latias are paired with Pursuit trappers or other Pokemon that take advantage of it, and the natural bulk is rarely ever worth the greater power Latios possesses. Latias is one of the easier Pokemon to take advantage of, as aside from Draco Meteor, it does not possess much to avoid being set up on. There is really no reason for Latias to be in A Rank, especially when Pokemon like Skarmory and Tyranitar are a lot better at the moment.
The utility it provides for offense is not as significant as it used to be with Spikes being more valuable than they were when Latias dropped to A Rank. While Latias can function as an Electric check, most Electrics will be paired with teammates that can take advantage of Latias anyways (not as necessary as Keldeo or Zard Y, but still important). In reality, the only thing Latias possesses right now that is valuable is Healing Wish, since the value of Rapid Spin is in higher demand.
The natural bulk it has over Latios really isn't that relevant either because Latias still fails to beat most of the Pokemon it is supposed to check. As stated before, most teams featuring mons checked by Latias are paired with Pursuit trappers or other Pokemon that take advantage of it, and the natural bulk is rarely ever worth the greater power Latios possesses. Latias is one of the easier Pokemon to take advantage of, as aside from Draco Meteor, it does not possess much to avoid being set up on. There is really no reason for Latias to be in A Rank, especially when Pokemon like Skarmory and Tyranitar are a lot better at the moment.
I don't particularly care if Mega Slowbro stays in A or moves down to A- cause if it stays A it's going to reflect the necessity to have something for it, easier said than done. If it drops that's just more wins Vertex and I will be having on our M-Bro team lol. The idea of "building around it" being a burden is sort of silly when almost any focal point of a team is built around something specific. The defensive difference between its regular and mega form is actually kind of large because it allows Mega Slowbro to allocate more of its stats to special defense as its monsterous defense compensates for it. Stop using shitty ass Double dance set to btw, there's legit no reason to run that unless you're so desperate for an illusion of a win con. CM / 2 attacks is really all you need and pairing it up hazards and offensive pokemon imo is the way to go.
Re Azelf discussion, offensive Zelf has Nasty Plot, Fire Blast and a strong U-turn to separate it from LO Alakazam, whereas Zam has higher speed, doesn't take residual damage, and can actually hurt Heatran and Tyranitar with Focus Blast; and LO Zam isn't the greatest set anyway. Azelf definitely doesn't need to move up.
This has garnered too much forum-wide discussion... lol
Also, I think that Victreebel should be ranked. Low, obviously, but it is important to have representation for what I think is the most effective chlorophyll abuser. As a sun sweeper, it has more going for it than venusaur imo. Sun isn't unusable atm, but it does take a bit of reaching. Victreebel is simply more self-sufficient than venu due to its coverage. Weather ball is incredible, and under sun/rain, it is usually the strongest move that Victreebel has. It also gives Victreebel a bit of flexibility against sand. A rock type weather ball can be super useful for surprising kyub/talon switchins
Weather ball/giga drain or power whip/sludge bomb/HP ice or sucker punch offers brilliant (and strong! Weather ball, as mentioned, is victreebel's strongest move here) coverage. 105 attack makes sucker punch/pwhip an inviting prospect. Synthesis/growth are options as usual, but they are meh. Venu has better bulk obviously, but it is just too hard to thrive in sun with HP/giga drain/sludge bomb/maybe eq (dugtrio/lati are better for this) coverage (ie weather ball is too important).
Also, I think that Victreebel should be ranked. Low, obviously, but it is important to have representation for what I think is the most effective chlorophyll abuser. As a sun sweeper, it has more going for it than venusaur imo. Sun isn't unusable atm, but it does take a bit of reaching. Victreebel is simply more self-sufficient than venu due to its coverage. Weather ball is incredible, and under sun/rain, it is usually the strongest move that Victreebel has. It also gives Victreebel a bit of flexibility against sand. A rock type weather ball can be super useful for surprising kyub/talon switchins
Weather ball/giga drain or power whip/sludge bomb/HP ice or sucker punch offers brilliant (and strong! Weather ball, as mentioned, is victreebel's strongest move here) coverage. 105 attack makes sucker punch/pwhip an inviting prospect. Synthesis/growth are options as usual, but they are meh. Venu has better bulk obviously, but it is just too hard to thrive in sun with HP/giga drain/sludge bomb/maybe eq (dugtrio/lati are better for this) coverage (ie weather ball is too important).
I don't know if I'm doing it right as this will be my first post here, sorry if I'm doing it wrong but yoloswag420blazeit.
The main reason why I'm making this post here is to question why Mega-Sableye is deemed S-rank? By what was mentioned in the Viability Ranking Thread v2, a S-rank Pokemon is one that is able to perform multiple roles very effectively or it can do just one perfectly. So, Mega-Sableye is one that's supposed to do one role perfectly? Mega-Sableye is commonly found in stall/semi-stall teams for its ability to prevent hazards on the user's side of the field while bouncing it back due to the ability Magic Bounce and it prevents Rapid Spin from clearing away the hazards as well. All this is only possible if the opponent is using a very passive Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin user such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, really defensive Landorus-T(which isn't common), Mew, Azelf, defensive Starmie and bulky Excadrill. Other Stealth Rock user found in OU such as Clefable, SD-lum Garchomp, Heatran, offensive Landorus-T and even things like Gliscor (nobody expects SR on it, it's more than often that it carries Swords Dance) is fully capable of getting up Stealth Rock against it because those are things that is able to win Mega-Sableye. Additionally, offensive Starmie and Excadrill is fully capable of killing Mega-Sableye on the switch-in and it can then Rapid Spin later on in the game while Defog users still do their business easily.
In my opinion, what makes Mega-Sableye seem so overpowering and perfect in doing its job is because of kind of Pokemons it's commonly paired with. Skarmory and Chansey is commonly found in a stall team and with the 2 of them around, it covers up whatever Mega-Sableye loses to. For example, offensive Landorus-T or Garchomp is capable of setting up Stealth Rock against Mega-Sableye but it loses to Skarmory and things like offensive Starmie loses to Chansey. It is the combination of such Pokemons that makes it really good but Mega-Sableye on its own doesn't perform its supposed role perfectly.
One may also argue that Mega-Sableye can be used as a set-up sweeper due to its ability to Recover damage off, set-up Calm Minds and then cripple physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp but note that most ORAS OU teams pack a Fairy type Pokemon that should be able to at least deal with Mega-Sableye, even if somehow your team really lacks it, there's definitely a Scald/Lava Plume/Sludge Bomb and whatever status inflicting attack moves that can cripple Mega-Sableye easily and then slowly pressure it to the point that it dies. Of course every Pokemon has its flaw and using this argument to explain how it's killed can be done so on every other Pokemon but my point here is that things that kill Mega-Sableye is really common and it isn't that difficult to fit it in a team. It is only difficult to kill because things that commonly come with Mega-Sableye supports it really well.
This brings about another point that I would like to share. In the link mentioned above, it says that an A or B rank Pokemon is one that has a few notable flaws but its traits outshine the flaws it has and it requires some form of support to let it perform. Isn't this what Mega-Sableye is? It's capable of fulfilling it's role mentioned only if it is given the support it require.
The main reason why I'm making this post here is to question why Mega-Sableye is deemed S-rank? By what was mentioned in the Viability Ranking Thread v2, a S-rank Pokemon is one that is able to perform multiple roles very effectively or it can do just one perfectly. So, Mega-Sableye is one that's supposed to do one role perfectly? Mega-Sableye is commonly found in stall/semi-stall teams for its ability to prevent hazards on the user's side of the field while bouncing it back due to the ability Magic Bounce and it prevents Rapid Spin from clearing away the hazards as well. All this is only possible if the opponent is using a very passive Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin user such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, really defensive Landorus-T(which isn't common), Mew, Azelf, defensive Starmie and bulky Excadrill. Other Stealth Rock user found in OU such as Clefable, SD-lum Garchomp, Heatran, offensive Landorus-T and even things like Gliscor (nobody expects SR on it, it's more than often that it carries Swords Dance) is fully capable of getting up Stealth Rock against it because those are things that is able to win Mega-Sableye. Additionally, offensive Starmie and Excadrill is fully capable of killing Mega-Sableye on the switch-in and it can then Rapid Spin later on in the game while Defog users still do their business easily.
In my opinion, what makes Mega-Sableye seem so overpowering and perfect in doing its job is because of kind of Pokemons it's commonly paired with. Skarmory and Chansey is commonly found in a stall team and with the 2 of them around, it covers up whatever Mega-Sableye loses to. For example, offensive Landorus-T or Garchomp is capable of setting up Stealth Rock against Mega-Sableye but it loses to Skarmory and things like offensive Starmie loses to Chansey. It is the combination of such Pokemons that makes it really good but Mega-Sableye on its own doesn't perform its supposed role perfectly.
One may also argue that Mega-Sableye can be used as a set-up sweeper due to its ability to Recover damage off, set-up Calm Minds and then cripple physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp but note that most ORAS OU teams pack a Fairy type Pokemon that should be able to at least deal with Mega-Sableye, even if somehow your team really lacks it, there's definitely a Scald/Lava Plume/Sludge Bomb and whatever status inflicting attack moves that can cripple Mega-Sableye easily and then slowly pressure it to the point that it dies. Of course every Pokemon has its flaw and using this argument to explain how it's killed can be done so on every other Pokemon but my point here is that things that kill Mega-Sableye is really common and it isn't that difficult to fit it in a team. It is only difficult to kill because things that commonly come with Mega-Sableye supports it really well.
This brings about another point that I would like to share. In the link mentioned above, it says that an A or B rank Pokemon is one that has a few notable flaws but its traits outshine the flaws it has and it requires some form of support to let it perform. Isn't this what Mega-Sableye is? It's capable of fulfilling it's role mentioned only if it is given the support it require.
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