Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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I don't know if I'm doing it right as this will be my first post here, sorry if I'm doing it wrong but yoloswag420blazeit.

The main reason why I'm making this post here is to question why Mega-Sableye is deemed S-rank? By what was mentioned in the Viability Ranking Thread v2, a S-rank Pokemon is one that is able to perform multiple roles very effectively or it can do just one perfectly. So, Mega-Sableye is one that's supposed to do one role perfectly? Mega-Sableye is commonly found in stall/semi-stall teams for its ability to prevent hazards on the user's side of the field while bouncing it back due to the ability Magic Bounce and it prevents Rapid Spin from clearing away the hazards as well. All this is only possible if the opponent is using a very passive Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin user such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, really defensive Landorus-T(which isn't common), Mew, Azelf, defensive Starmie and bulky Excadrill. Other Stealth Rock user found in OU such as Clefable, SD-lum Garchomp, Heatran, offensive Landorus-T and even things like Gliscor (nobody expects SR on it, it's more than often that it carries Swords Dance) is fully capable of getting up Stealth Rock against it because those are things that is able to win Mega-Sableye. Additionally, offensive Starmie and Excadrill is fully capable of killing Mega-Sableye on the switch-in and it can then Rapid Spin later on in the game while Defog users still do their business easily.

In my opinion, what makes Mega-Sableye seem so overpowering and perfect in doing its job is because of kind of Pokemons it's commonly paired with. Skarmory and Chansey is commonly found in a stall team and with the 2 of them around, it covers up whatever Mega-Sableye loses to. For example, offensive Landorus-T or Garchomp is capable of setting up Stealth Rock against Mega-Sableye but it loses to Skarmory and things like offensive Starmie loses to Chansey. It is the combination of such Pokemons that makes it really good but Mega-Sableye on its own doesn't perform its supposed role perfectly.

One may also argue that Mega-Sableye can be used as a set-up sweeper due to its ability to Recover damage off, set-up Calm Minds and then cripple physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp but note that most ORAS OU teams pack a Fairy type Pokemon that should be able to at least deal with Mega-Sableye, even if somehow your team really lacks it, there's definitely a Scald/Lava Plume/Sludge Bomb and whatever status inflicting attack moves that can cripple Mega-Sableye easily and then slowly pressure it to the point that it dies. Of course every Pokemon has its flaw and using this argument to explain how it's killed can be done so on every other Pokemon but my point here is that things that kill Mega-Sableye is really common and it isn't that difficult to fit it in a team. It is only difficult to kill because things that commonly come with Mega-Sableye supports it really well.

This brings about another point that I would like to share. In the link mentioned above, it says that an A or B rank Pokemon is one that has a few notable flaws but its traits outshine the flaws it has and it requires some form of support to let it perform. Isn't this what Mega-Sableye is? It's capable of fulfilling it's role mentioned only if it is given the support it require.
Aside from the fact that we're not going by those definitions, a pokemon can be S rank for excelling at one role. Another clear comparison here would be Greninja, it's All Out Attacker set(utility for Mega Sableye) is clearly superior to its lesser used sets like spikes/lead(Calm mind for Mega Sableye). So even though it's predictable, in the grand picture that doesn't play as huge of a role because of how effective it is.
 
I don't know if I'm doing it right as this will be my first post here, sorry if I'm doing it wrong but yoloswag420blazeit.

The main reason why I'm making this post here is to question why Mega-Sableye is deemed S-rank? By what was mentioned in the Viability Ranking Thread v2, a S-rank Pokemon is one that is able to perform multiple roles very effectively or it can do just one perfectly. So, Mega-Sableye is one that's supposed to do one role perfectly? Mega-Sableye is commonly found in stall/semi-stall teams for its ability to prevent hazards on the user's side of the field while bouncing it back due to the ability Magic Bounce and it prevents Rapid Spin from clearing away the hazards as well. All this is only possible if the opponent is using a very passive Stealth Rock/Rapid Spin user such as Rocky Helmet Garchomp, Hippowdon, Ferrothorn, Skarmory, really defensive Landorus-T(which isn't common), Mew, Azelf, defensive Starmie and bulky Excadrill. Other Stealth Rock user found in OU such as Clefable, SD-lum Garchomp, Heatran, offensive Landorus-T and even things like Gliscor (nobody expects SR on it, it's more than often that it carries Swords Dance) is fully capable of getting up Stealth Rock against it because those are things that is able to win Mega-Sableye. Additionally, offensive Starmie and Excadrill is fully capable of killing Mega-Sableye on the switch-in and it can then Rapid Spin later on in the game while Defog users still do their business easily.

In my opinion, what makes Mega-Sableye seem so overpowering and perfect in doing its job is because of kind of Pokemons it's commonly paired with. Skarmory and Chansey is commonly found in a stall team and with the 2 of them around, it covers up whatever Mega-Sableye loses to. For example, offensive Landorus-T or Garchomp is capable of setting up Stealth Rock against Mega-Sableye but it loses to Skarmory and things like offensive Starmie loses to Chansey. It is the combination of such Pokemons that makes it really good but Mega-Sableye on its own doesn't perform its supposed role perfectly.

One may also argue that Mega-Sableye can be used as a set-up sweeper due to its ability to Recover damage off, set-up Calm Minds and then cripple physical attackers with Will-O-Wisp but note that most ORAS OU teams pack a Fairy type Pokemon that should be able to at least deal with Mega-Sableye, even if somehow your team really lacks it, there's definitely a Scald/Lava Plume/Sludge Bomb and whatever status inflicting attack moves that can cripple Mega-Sableye easily and then slowly pressure it to the point that it dies. Of course every Pokemon has its flaw and using this argument to explain how it's killed can be done so on every other Pokemon but my point here is that things that kill Mega-Sableye is really common and it isn't that difficult to fit it in a team. It is only difficult to kill because things that commonly come with Mega-Sableye supports it really well.

This brings about another point that I would like to share. In the link mentioned above, it says that an A or B rank Pokemon is one that has a few notable flaws but its traits outshine the flaws it has and it requires some form of support to let it perform. Isn't this what Mega-Sableye is?
First of all, you're putting way too much emphasis on the rank definitions. Those definitions are meaningless. The best Pokemon go in S, the next best go in A+, and so on.

Stall is fundamentally a win condition. If an offensive team can't break it, then it loses. And because of how strong your basic Skarm / Quag / Chans core is, there are very few ways to break it.

One of the key ways pre-ORAS was to get up Rocks (and preferably other hazards) and just use offensive pressure to wear the relevant walls into KO range. Taunt-based stallbreakers (e.g. Mew) were another. M-Sableye simply removes both of these options against most Rock setters, and all Spike setters. In the same vein, Scarf Gothitelle, by trapping stuff like RD Manaphy, removes another option.

Sure, Heatran and Clefable can reliably keep getting Rocks up against it. SD Lum Chomp and Lando can do the same thing, but struggle more because Skarm Defogs on them and they can only set Rocks one-on-one against Sableye once (assuming it Wisps). All the same...this is 4 Pokemon. Look at the huge number of popular Rockers which it nullifies.

In that sense, it's true that M-Sableye only works well in combination with other threats. However, the utility it offers in one package is just way beyond any other stall mon. I can explain why but honestly it shouldn't be necessary.
 
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bludz

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In such a hazard centric metagame, Mega Sableye gives you by far the best chance out of any pokemon to win the hazard war. SD Lum Chomp is extremely uncommon compared to Rocky Helmet Chomp which is now the most standard. Offensive Heatrans cannot even set up Rocks on Mega Sableye reliably; it's actually the defensive ones which need to spam Lava Plume to get a burn.

252 SpA Heatran Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 127-151 (41.7 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

I'm not going to go on stating the obvious like that it shuts down a high number of stallbreakers, but it's clear that the team support it provides is simply incredible. While offense seemingly stormed the metagame, Sableye teams have basically been the most consistent fully defensive builds. The rising number of checks to fairy types (see: Skarm's rise, Altaria's drop) has also made it easier to provide Sableye with the team support which it needs. Maybe it needs more support than mons like Zard X, but it also provides more.
 

Albacore

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I also think MSab should be A+ (though it'll probably drop back to A+ in a month or so anyway one the metagame shifts away from it), simply on the basis that using it contricts your teambuilding far more than any A+ rank, let alone S rank. If you use Mega Sableye on your team, you absolutely need : a hard check/counter to every fairy in the tier (this usually takes two teamslots), a check to XZard (one more moveslot, almost certainly different to the fairykilling ones, unless you're one of those people who thinks Heatran is an acceptable answer to either XZard or Fairies), YZard, and a good switchin to Manaphy, and that's just the more obvious and dangerous stuff. This means that, if you plan to use Sableye, you usually end up with the same teammates, forming the same generic balance team. Sableye only really works that well on specific builds, and while that is a very effective build at the moment, Sableye still pretty limiting when it comes to teambuilding, regardless of how amazing the support it provides is.

If we're going to look at how it stacks up with other S ranks, the comparison with Clefable is a pretty obvious one, since both are amazing support Pokemon which handle a wide range of threats and can be pretty tricky to deal with. Where they differ is that Clefable isn't easily beaten by anything particularly dangerous or difficult to switch into besides I guess YZard, and also has the ability to cripple almost all of its swicthins which is something Sableye lacks. Every one of the 3 other S rank is far more autonomous than Sableye and fits on a far wider variety of teams. Personally, when I think of S rank Pokemon I think of Pokemon for whom there is very little risk in using, and if there is, it's always outshined by their positive traits, and this doesn't really describe Sableye to me.
 
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bludz

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My main issue with that argument is the "threats you must cover." Manaphy, Clefable and Zard X are S rank and need to be covered by every team regardless. Ok Manaphy will pose a larger threat to Sableye teams but this holds true for most balance builds. The offensive fairies point is entirely true, though.

I guess I don't view S rank in a splashability / versatility manner as much. Those are things that can make a Mon but aren't necessary in my eyes. To me an S rank threat is simply dominant. In all of A+ rank, I cannot name a pokemon that can actually dump on unprepared teams in all playstyles archetypes (I guess you could argue metagross potentially, a former S rank). Sure Lopunny can destroy an unprepared offense team but balance has so many answers you will have 2 without even thinking about it. Hoopa U can decimate balance and Stall teams even if they have answers for it but can flounder against offense. Sableye has the ability to shut down a large portion of teams in all the major playstyles, similar to the other S rank threats. Now you can make an argument about Manaphys matchup against offense but that's totally overblown IMO since it still puts in massive work vs bulky offense.
 
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Espeon unlisted -> D
i think espeon should move to D becuase of magic bouce and the meta shift of how important rocks and spikes are in this current meta with pokemons like garchomp and Landorus-T being so common for lead rocks.after mega saybleye has moved to S rank and with mega Diancie also being so highly ranked i think espeon could be a good alternate choice of magic bounce user with out having to use a mega i think a dual screens bulky set could be viable
 
Espeon unlisted -> D
i think espeon should move to D becuase of magic bouce and the meta shift of how important rocks and spikes are in this current meta with pokemons like garchomp and Landorus-T being so common for lead rocks.after mega saybleye has moved to S rank and with mega Diancie also being so highly ranked i think espeon could be a good alternate choice of magic bounce user with out having to use a mega i think a dual screens bulky set could be viable
I actually do wonder about Espeon. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my impression is that if people thought Espeon had viable use as a screens setter/non-mega Magic Bouncer, it wouldn't have been dropped completely following the revised BP Clause. Statistically there's not much over or under Azelf for that specific role...except that speed. 110 vs. 115 kinda makes a difference in a fast metagame like this one. Just my two cents.
 
This has garnered too much forum-wide discussion... lol

Also, I think that Victreebel should be ranked. Low, obviously, but it is important to have representation for what I think is the most effective chlorophyll abuser. As a sun sweeper, it has more going for it than venusaur imo. Sun isn't unusable atm, but it does take a bit of reaching. Victreebel is simply more self-sufficient than venu due to its coverage. Weather ball is incredible, and under sun/rain, it is usually the strongest move that Victreebel has. It also gives Victreebel a bit of flexibility against sand. A rock type weather ball can be super useful for surprising kyub/talon switchins

Weather ball/giga drain or power whip/sludge bomb/HP ice or sucker punch offers brilliant (and strong! Weather ball, as mentioned, is victreebel's strongest move here) coverage. 105 attack makes sucker punch/pwhip an inviting prospect. Synthesis/growth are options as usual, but they are meh. Venu has better bulk obviously, but it is just too hard to thrive in sun with HP/giga drain/sludge bomb/maybe eq (dugtrio/lati are better for this) coverage (ie weather ball is too important).
Seconding the Victreebel nomination. Sun is obviously the worst of the three main weathers (lol poor hail) but Victreebel is the second best option for a sun sweeper after Venusaur. Weaterball has pretty amazing coverage with Grass and Poison STAB, being walled only by Heatran, who is easily lured or can be taken out by Dugtrio. Solar Beam is also an option, but should only be used on a full sun team that uses Heat Rock Ninetales instead of ZardY. Sucker Punch is another big advantage he has over Venu, giving him a decent priority attack, which helps if the opposing team has a weakened Talonflame.

I ran a full sun team a few weeks ago that utilized both Venu and Victreebel, kind of like a bird spam team. Victreebel puts in some serious work under sun, and I honestly thinks it deserves the be ranked. It requires a lot of support to pair it with Ninetales, but it's just so stupid strong in the sun. Unfortunately I didn't save any replays, but I'll try to get some in the next couple of days.

Edit: MikeDawg didn't put down a specific rank to nom it for, so I'll go ahead and say D
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Seconding the Victreebel nomination. Sun is obviously the worst of the three main weathers (lol poor hail) but Victreebel is the second best option for a sun sweeper after Venusaur. Weaterball has pretty amazing coverage with Grass and Poison STAB, being walled only by Heatran, who is easily lured or can be taken out by Dugtrio. Solar Beam is also an option, but should only be used on a full sun team that uses Heat Rock Ninetales instead of ZardY. Sucker Punch is another big advantage he has over Venu, giving him a decent priority attack, which helps if the opposing team has a weakened Talonflame.

I ran a full sun team a few weeks ago that utilized both Venu and Victreebel, kind of like a bird spam team. Victreebel puts in some serious work under sun, and I honestly thinks it deserves the be ranked. It requires a lot of support to pair it with Ninetales, but it's just so stupid strong in the sun. Unfortunately I didn't save any replays, but I'll try to get some in the next couple of days.

Edit: MikeDawg didn't put down a specific rank to nom it for, so I'll go ahead and say D
I don't think that vbell should be ranked under the pretense that it is the second best sun sweeper (the niche isn't wide enough to cater to both). I think that it is outright better than venusaur in this metagame because of weather ball (and sucker punch+stronger physical spectrum to an extent). It is slower, so it can't outspeed scarf keld, for example (but neither can venusaur if it doesn't run jolly which def cuts into it's already lacking offensive prowess), but weather ball is just too good to pass up.
 

Gary

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Lol quit feeding the fire jesus guys

Yeah Gengar is no where near comparable to many of the Pokemon found in A-, most of them being much less splashable overall and or needing more team support to be successful. It has practically zero reliable switch-ins outside of very fat shit and cool utility which allows it to be a bitch for balance and bulky offense. It may have poor defensive synergy and with the rise of Weavile, Mega Sab, AV Torn-T, and Hoopa being a little annoying for it, nothing has really change that's made Gengar significantly worse. Mega Sab is still taking a decent chunk of damage from Shadow Ball + Rocks, enough where it will most likely have to Recover thus still giving you plenty of momentum. Hoopa just can't reliably switch in period, as it is outsped the following turn and with some residual damage it is 2HKOed. Torn-T wont really appreciate a LO Sludge Wave either. Also, a LOT of Latios tend to run HP Fire in the current meta, which is pretty easy to scout for, so Gengar can now be considered a semi reliable check to most Latios, which is pretty cool.

I just don't see how Gengar can be fit into the same rank as Toed, Mega Aero, Zam, and Volc, which are all good Pokemon but none of them are nearly as easy to fit onto a team as Gengar nor does Gengar require nearly as much support as Volc or especially Toed. Zam works kind of like Gengar, but with Sash it hits a lot less hard, and unlike Gengar its LO set can't take advantage of dual STAB outside of Psychic, so it's easier to deal with overall. It just comes in, hits hard as fuck, and has the potential to be a pain in the neck to many team archetypes because of its neat utility, typing, and good coverage. It checks many troublesome Pokemon, mainly Fairies such as Clef, Azu, Mega Gard, and Mega Alt, as well as other shit like Slowbro, Mega Venu to an extent, Serp, and Jirachi. When ever I see a Gengar, especially vs more balance builds with things like Ferro, Tran, or Hippo which all hate being smacked with Wisp or Focus Blast respectively, it just always seems to put so much work in. Gengar to me is part of what defines more offensive teams seeing how well it fits on them and how it can force massive amounts of switches and keep up the pressure.

So yeah, Gengar is a VERY solid A Pokemon in my eyes.
 

AD impish john

Consumed by Darkness...
Espeon unlisted -> D
i think espeon should move to D becuase of magic bouce and the meta shift of how important rocks and spikes are in this current meta with pokemons like garchomp and Landorus-T being so common for lead rocks.after mega saybleye has moved to S rank and with mega Diancie also being so highly ranked i think espeon could be a good alternate choice of magic bounce user with out having to use a mega i think a dual screens bulky set could be viable

Keep Espeon Unranked!

I disagree with this completely, and before I start let me say that Espeon is worse than Azelf! The reason Mega Sableye is good is that it has a way to recover HP, great typing making it have 1 weakness being fairy, can burn opponents by using Will-O-Wisp, and gets good Dark type moves such as Knock Off and Foul Play. Mega Diancie is also good as it has better attack and bulk and ways to setup and sweep, such as Rock Polish. You might as well use LO Alakazam or Mega Zam for its better speed tier, coverage in Focus Blast and it has more immediate power, along with Magic Guard for preserving some longevity with LO as fleggumfl stated before. If you're wanting to use a Screen Setter jsut use Klefki as it has Prankster priority. Also Espeon was practically only good before the Baton Pass clause imo. Landorus-T can just U-Turn predicting Espeon to come out, and Garchomp can just simply Dragon Tail, as more advance players would do. INB4 I get flamed by chat
 
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Dread Arceus

total cockhead
Espeon's only appeal to me personally was Magic Bouncing rocks on rock-weak offensive teams that already had a mega (ie birdspam, charx-tflame, etc). The problem with this is that its competition is Latios and Starmie, and it brings pretty much nothing over the two besides the ability to have slightly more momentum. Both Latios and Starmie absolutely blow it out of the water statistically, and both already have a fantastic movepool, as well as generally better typing. Realistically using Espeon to beat rocks is more of a gimmick than anything, and unless that's changed recently we don't rate gimmicks.

The other set it's known for is screens, which it actually isn't as bad as people seem to think. The reason I say this is magic bounce actually blocks defog from clearing screens, something that is a pretty valuable asset. Not to mention it's more-or-less impossible to taunt, and still has a fairly high speed tier. Whether this niche makes it deserve D rank or not, I'm kinda leaning towards no on that. While bouncing hazard removal is cool, in general azelf can just taunt most of the things espeon would bounce anyways.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-274267913 for anybody wanting to confirm the defog mechanics

(also AM when are we gonna see you get to the top of the ladder)

AM Edit: When I play more than one match on ladder a day.
 
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I Agree with the Espeon nom to D. It's use is extremely slim, but not nonexistent. I suppose it could work as a magic bounce user that can work on an HO team that isn't named Mega Diance. And, while it is worse than Alakazam, it does have reasons to be used over it as a fast psychic type, like not being able to be paralyzed or put to sleep. Remember, we're not asking it to go to A rank, all we're asking for is for it to be recognized as a Pokemon that can be used on very, very select teams. The question that it boils down to is this- is Espeon a useable Pokemon? Yes, in my book it is.
 
AD impish john TDK actually cleaned that up. Just trying to keep credit where it's due.

To be honest, the only real niche Espeon has is as a Magic Bounce user that's not a Mega. That alone might be enough to put it into D; the main thing I'm skeptical of is whether Xatu would do that better or not.
 
Jesus christ
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Suspect talk, unrelated stuff, one liners that ask questions that provide no substance, something that doesn't really pertain to rankings or petty arguments about semantics and definitions, such as the definition of a counter as one example, will be deleted.
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I completely forgot that Espeon was a thing, to be honest, but I think I know why: Klefki. Dual Screens was basically its final call and Klefki took that away (and had Prankster, Thunder Wave, and Spikes to work with). Espeon has Magic Bounce, though...which is nice, I guess. It's a niche ENOUGH to be D for me since it is usable.

While I'm not one to agree with MikeDawg over there, I'm up for the pitcher to be ranked somewhere in C- or D. I remember seeing it in BW2 before the newest rules and stuff happened, but it was annoying as hell and didn't have to rely on Hidden Power to hit Scizor, which is a nice plus.

As far as this whole "Mega Sableye ranking" talk, I don't care where it is, personally. It's cool and all, that's for sure...I guess. Not one of my favorite Pokemon to use (see also Mega Altaria), but I can see why it's used. Does it justify S? Halfway yes, halfway no. Every point has been made with it, so it just comes down to "Is it worth it? Does it really limit team building? What can it stop?" Answering all of this is important and I'm not sure where to draw the line, personally.

As a side note, I was originally going to talk about the cancerous "stat vs ability" talk from earlier, but after this comment, I'm just going to let it die out faster than the Donphan discussions. Like the latter, it needs to happen.
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
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Honestly don't care about Espeon, but I'd like to point out we just unranked it like 2 weeks ago.

Can we please not get into a cycle of ranking-unranking-ranking the thing please? It just wastes time and discussion that could be spent on mons that are already ranked when this thing is probably going to get the boot once the bandwagon decides it sucks again.
 
honestly i have a serious question, i dont really care if its like a one liner

but why are there like stupid arguments over like C rank mons that are barely even seen in the metagame... who cares about C Rank mons? Unless they do something crazy new, i dont understand why anyone should care about em.
Is it just me? We only care about the A and B Rank mons, right? Not tryna be rebellious guys, just a lil' question
Because this is a Viability Thread, meaning it will show the pokes that are notably viable no matter how big or small their niche is in the meta game, and if someone believes that a poke has a "good" enough niche to go from Blank -> Blank it should be for discussion if its an actual serous nomination. They shouldn't be taken as serious as the higher ranks but it should still have discussion. Whether how often a poke is seen in the meta that doesn't change its viability of being viably great, good, decent, bad, or mediocre. If we're not going to have actual discussion for lower rank nominations like C and D Rank why have them at all? why they're here is to show that the pokes in that rank do have some sort of niche that it can use in the meta game that can justify they're use.
 
I'm not sure that the discussion I've seen about Espeon is exactly accurate to what it does, or should be doing. I'm a bit confused as to what you guys are talking about when you use the term Magic Bouncer, because that's not really a niche at all. Only Sableye really functions like that, everything else with the ability (including Espeon), is too frail to switch into most hazard setters. Obviously offensive and support sets are totally outclassed, so I won't get into that. I'm not entirely sure why you would even bring these sets up, to be honest, because those aren't at all what Espeon's niche is and are pretty much all inferior sets. There's exactly one thing that Espeon does better than pretty much anything else in the tier, namely thrashing passive stall, including that BOF stall team quote unquote best team on ladder. Given how most high ladder players are running stall due to strength / consistency / ease of use, Espeon actually seems like it might be worth D-Rank when considering something like this.

Espeon @ Shed Shell
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Stored Power
- Dazzling Gleam
- Calm Mind
- Morning Sun

I'll use the typical Goth / Blob / Sableye / Quag / Amoon / Skarm build for this, since that's the most common team out there, but most defensively inclined teams tend to struggle a lot with Espeon, thanks to Magic Bounce eliminating the typical ways of dealing with set up mons (phazing, status, Taunt) and Stored Power's mechanics. Sableye is 2HKOed at +1 and can't actually threaten you all that well, Chansey, Skarmory, and Quagsire are set up fodder, Amoongus can delay a little bit with Clear Smog but ultimately dies if you play wrong at all. The only hope that this team actually has against Espeon is to trick it a Scarf, and you can just switch out on the Trick to avoid that whole issue altogether, at which point Gothitelle becomes fodder as well.

Generally I would say that this set is way too specific to be used in a more balanced ladder environment, but stall is so common and good right now that I think it's appropriate to give a tech choice like Espeon a place on the VR, even if it's only in D Rank. At least if we're going to be discussing Espeon, we should discuss a good set with legitimate uses, and not low ladder sets.
 
Alright since the topic is stuck on freaking espeon I'm just going ahead and suggest some fresh nominations:

Mega Garchomp B --> B+
Togekiss B+ --> A-

Mamoswine B+ --> B
Mega Gallade B+ --> B

1) Mega Garchomp B --> B+


Until recently, I have thought that this thing is inferior to most wallbreakers, takes a mega slot, and just need a lot of support to function correctly. However, after using it recently to an extent of success, I can easily say that Mega Chomp is on par with Mega Heracross, Victini, and Diggersby in terms of viability and, particularly, wallbreaking ability.

First, it's speed isn't as bad as everyone thinks, it has better speed than Hoopa-U, Mega Heracross, and many other mons who are the premier or best wallbreakers in this teir. The fastest wallbreaker is probably Mega Medicham, but after that is Mega Garchomp. It outspeeds Adamant Excadrill with a neutral nature and Hoopa-U and Jolly Excadrill with a positive nature.

Now, lets compare Mega Garchomp to the 2 best wallbreakers in the tier, Mega Medicham and Heracross.

Mega Medicham: Faster than both, can 2HKO Phys. Clef without support (Sand for Mega Chomp). Has priority, deals good with HO, kinda bad vs. stall.
Mega Heracross: Can break Slowbro much better than both. Can break through Mega Sableye at +2 unlike mega medicham. Deals horrible vs. HO, good vs. Balanced and Stall.
Mega Garchomp: Best defensive typing (proven by tank chomp), biggest bulk, better speed than Mega Heracross, and can take down Skarmory risk-free (heracross's 2hko is a roll and can die to BB, medicham has to risk HJK (only 10%) and BB does like 85% min.). Can take down Mega Sableye at +2. Overall deals decent vs. HO, v. good vs. Balanced, good vs. Stall.

Overall, obviously i was slightly overselling Mega Chomp, Mega Medicham is clearly the best wallbreaker overall, but I'd honestly say Mega Garchomp is as good as Mega Heracross (B+), if not slightly better. [Sand is not a necessary support for Mega Chomp btw, but sure it helps doing more immediate damage on bulky teams, only important 2hko it gives him is on Unaware clef]

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/ou-273776498 - This is a replay where a standard stall team which Mega Garchomp just destroyed late game, skip to turn 27 if you don't want to see boring clef vs. gothitelle.

2)
Togekiss B+ --> A-

Togekiss is without a doubt, one of the best stallbreakers in the tier. Without Goth, any stall gets pretty much 6-0'd, and if you manage to put goth out of the way, Togekiss wins. Not to mention it's also a very good wallbreaker, a very good Defog user, and a very good cleric w/ Thunderwave. Thank to its fantastic typing and solid movepool. fleggumfl also nominated this yesterday-ish.

3)
Mamoswine B+ --> B

I don't think Mamoswine has the same viability as Diggersby, Breloom, and definitely not Suicune, which are all B+. Mamoswine is outclassed in every sense of the word by Weavile, and I know Weavile is A+, but they should be at least 3 ranks apart. Aside from that, Breloom is much better because it has access to both Spore and Swords Dance, and a priority a bit more spammable. Breloom outclasses it even as a Sash Lead although Mamoswine has rocks and endeavor, it's going to give up on either Icicle Crash/Spear, Earthquake, or Ice Shard for those moves, while Breloom has Spore, and punches holes in the opponent's through Rock Tomb/SD even as a lead. Diggersby hits harder AND has SD, albeit a bit less Speed. Suicune is just better over all, Pressure, Calm Mind, Scald, Roar, and all the defensive utility it brings is just amazing and its viability is no way on par with Mamoswine. However, it definitely has its niches, probably the most viable is the sash lead. It definitely is good alongside Hydreigon / Omastar under Rain / Scizor / Zapdos / Chansey, which are all B, in my opinion.

4)
Mega Gallade B+ --> B

Tbh idk why this was alongside the likes of Mega Heracorss, which outclass it in wallbreaking. Although, Mega Gallade isn't too bad, a nice 110 speed is its best selling point, but tbh I feel like Terrakion, at a close 108 Spe, outclasses it. Mainly because Terrakion resists Knock Off / Sucker Punch and gets a boost out of it, doesn't waste a mega slot, and also because Terrakion can run a Choice Band and hit like truck, or run Choice Scarf and potentially sweep late-game. fleggumfl also nominated this to drop down yesterday and I'm agreeing with him.
 
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Albacore

sludge bomb is better than sludge wave
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lol I never said Togekiss should be A-, in fact I said the exact opposite...

Honestly I find Togekiss to be a mediocre Defogger, not only because of its SR weakness but also because it already suffers from 4MSS in the first place and Defog just makes that worse. Without Nasty Plot it's can't wallbreak and therefore loses it main niche, without Aura Sphere it can't reliably break past Steels and without Heal Bell it's very prone to Status. TWave isn't very good either, it sounds good in theory b/c of parafinch until you realise many of its checks (Electrics, Sand Rush Exca) are immune to it. If there's an A- worthy set, it's NP+Aura Sphere or Heal Bell and no other.

Also I never said Gallade should drop either. Gallade has flaws but 4MSS is not one of them, I don't see why you'd need anything else than STABs / SD / Knock Off, I guess you can argue Ice Punch has merit but at that point you're clearly better off using Medicham anyway. Skill Swap is awful stop mentioning it, and why the hell would you ever use Taunt? The only legitimate reason I can think of for using Taunt MGallade is if you want to shut down Regular Sableye on the switch, and even then it just Foul Plays you anyway.

Oh and please stop using the word "outclass" like that that's not what the word means gdi. "Togekiss outcalsses Mega Gallade" is a ridiculous statement, the two aren't even remotely comparable lol.
 
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MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
I don't think that Skill Swap is as much of a bad gimmick as you are making it out to be. It gives gallade a niche (which it really needs atm), if anything. Aside from the obvious quag+sableye breaking potential, not many of its switchins want to be taking a skill swap (even if it is on the switch and gallade switches out after). Altaria/sylveon loses pixilate, scizor loses technician, slowbro loses regenerator, a daring azumarill loses huge power.

Sure, it gives up the psychic coverage, but medicham has the psychic/fighting wallbreaking department locked down imo. May as well capitalize on gallade's ability to maybe dismantle sableye stall (lest sableye runs foul play). Team-wise, even if you dont want to take on sableye/etc. one-on-one, skill swap gives you the ability to set hazards/inflict status on turn 2 (switch out to a diff mon, they have no magic guard for that turn, etc.). An easier switch into alt/sylveon is always nice as well.

Not a great option, obviously, but gallade is not a great pokemon.
 

Josh

=P
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I don't see why you'd need anything else than STABs / SD / Knock Off
Sub and Shadow Sneak are very useful moves for it, depending what you want it to accomplish. For example, it loses to Mega Medi without shadow sneak, and sub can be used to gain free turns against status and stuff. Everything besides these is niche though imo.

I agree with everything else.
 
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