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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139
- Thread starter AM
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What? AM is saying that it lacks the opportunity to set up, not that it has 4mms. Volcarona has a long list of problems, most of them aren't even because of how the metagame has shifted, the metagame shift actually favours it, Volcaronas problem stem from a subpar ability, garbage duel stabs and the lack of coverage all of that coupled with the fact that it can barely set up because you need multiple pokemon removed is enough to prevent a rise.
AM simply mentioned that those threats are more centralizing than Volc, and they are. Volc is eZ to check and while it does sweep teams, it requires so much damn support to do so. Far more than other set up sweepers.
Tbh Volc is overhyped as shit.
I agree with him regarding Gardevoir and Tyranitar. Gardevoir and Tyranitar are also more centralizing than Charizard Y and Mega Gyarados - yet those are in the A tier with them.
All I was trying to say is that I don't think it belongs lower than some of those A tier pokes.
lol how is volc actually getting to set up when most of a->s is able to deal with it at 50%? i mentioned both chars and tflame because even at half health they are still able to have a reasonable effect on the meta. yeah they all require similar hazard support to volc but they do quite a bit more even if rocks cant be cleared, tbh hitting every mon commonly found on balance like a truck (chary and x to an extent) is a lot more viable than a mon that needs to be given a free turn to be threatening when all of the others are threatening even at that lower health. charx can blow back half of its common switchins like hippo, landot, and azu with rocks and blitz, chary has very few switchins and force in latis which can be trapped, lol tflame doesn't always need the health because it has prio brave bird to counteract faster mons and other prio like from azumarill which it beats if weakened. lots of mons shit on the higher ranks of the vr thread tbh that need lots less support to break fat cores over their knees like kube garde and even meta although now out of vogue.
opportunity cost imo is not in its favor because when you try actually building around volc that means you're not using chary charx or tflame (the other 4x sr weaks) because you don't want a third of your squad to lose to rocks and volc is not better at its job than those mons are at theirs. you need not only spin/defog but often you want magic bounce too which means diancie or sableye, which means stacking keldeo and azu food onto your team when good switchins are already not great and limited to lati on a lot of offense which also has to check chary and jet sweep from azu. not being a mega is irrelevant when arguably another third of your team has to support the mon for it to function, and if it's not running roost then it barely checks anything leaving only five slots to deal with the very diverse threats in oras.
like none of this is saying that volc can't steamroll teams because it can and does, but the building constraint around volc is crippling and frankly not worth when other 4x rock weaks are better at what they do than volc is at setup sweeping esp given the priospam aspect that is quite common in the meta rn. imo the building aspect by itself is enough for it be a- and nothing more.
I don't know why you keep bringing up S class Char X when it is Char Y that is in question lol.
I am not saying volc is better than Talonflame or Charizard X. It is just as good as Charizard Y. Whatever Charizard Y has in immediate power, Volcarona more than makes up for with potential power AND the saving of a Mega slot. Speaking of opportunity cost, Volcarona + M-Sabeleye alone is a very good combo and allows you to utilize literally an S-Tier Pokemon with excellent synergy.
Azumarill isnt even necessarily a top threat to Volcarona as Passho berry allows it to survive and then OHKO with giga drain. So there's that.
It seems I am in the minority though.
I mean, instead of pushing for Volcarona to rise, why not nom CharY to the same rank then? I could see it happening, not that it matters much.
Volcarona is not splashable, even for a non mega. It's very constraining, obviously, it should be A-.
Also he keeps bringing up CharX because it's also x4 rocks weak, but it's ridiculous as a set up sweeper, even compared to Volc. (Literally half of its checks are completely decimated given the right circumstances.)
Volcarona is not splashable, even for a non mega. It's very constraining, obviously, it should be A-.
Also he keeps bringing up CharX because it's also x4 rocks weak, but it's ridiculous as a set up sweeper, even compared to Volc. (Literally half of its checks are completely decimated given the right circumstances.)
LOL char-y should NOT drop. Not only do char-x/y mindgames have the possibility to tear apart anything slower (nothing bar chople/scarf tar really takes on both) but char-y itself fucks up an entire playstyle (rain) and its natural power is through the roof. Pokemon like mega gardevoir are good at being consistent and can 2hko bulky mons on the switch-in, but char-y will easily OHKO anything that doesn't resist it or isn't bulky. Stuff like Nidoking, Lando-T, mega pidgeot, etc, all just die; in that regard its much like mega cham. You won't ever see a mega garde OHKO'ing something from full with a neutral hyper voice.
However char-y can also provide some decent-ish defensive synergy like checking scizor and serp, something that cham can't. It may have some other checks such as talon or mega aero or rotom-h but most of them will simply die to pressure from ttar+hazards (ttar beats common hazard removers) and repeated sun boosted fire attacks.
Char-y+ttar is simply a super consistent wallbreaking core and it really shouldn't ever move down. Char-y is WAY better than shit like celebi, starmie, mega-aero, magnezone etc.
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Well I don't think char y, mew, mega gyara belong in A- either lol
Char x is irrelevant because it is S rank and of course volc doesn't compare (what really compares though?)
Still don't see how volc is as constraining as char y when it pairs beautifully with 3 S ranked pokemon
Simply put, Volcarona is a sweeper; it doesn't have good defensive synergy with much, meaning it usually needs to come in on a free switch, and once it is out, has a hard time finding a good teammate to pivot into. As a result, when using one, you're effectively playing one 'mon down until Volcarona is in a position to sweep. It also means that Volcarona acts as a cornerstone for teams, meant to be built around and supported; it doesn't help that it needs a lot of support due to the fact it needs a free turn to Quiver Dance up and actually start doing things, and that it needs rocks off the field before it switches in so as not to get revenge killed by pretty much all common priority. It also has a hard time finding positive matchups before a Quiver Dance, meaning harder set-up opportunities.
However, once it is positioned properly and gets set up, it takes lives, since the amount of Pokemon it beats after a Quiver Dance increases drastically; in fact, the insane length of that list is the main thing still tying it to A-. I absolutely love using Volcarona, but I still believe that it should stay in A-.
I'm not following.
If mega sabelsye is on your team, then I'd consider that THE cornerstone. M sabeleye is a nightmare for opponents trying to set hazards.
It can eat bullet punches and such aimed at clefable, another S rank can support volc and others with twave, heal bell,wish, etc.
It doesn't have to quiver dance right away. You guys are making it seem like its a sitting duck without a boost lol
It's not even THAT frail
1.) Sorry, vocabulary stickler. I view the "cornerstone" as the Pokemon a team is built around. I view Pokemon like M-Sableye as a "keystone", since they hold a team together. M-Sable also acts as a cornerstone, though.
2.) BP is pretty much only on M-Zor, though I agree that that's one of the Pokemon it can potentially set up on. It does leave Volcarona weakened for revenging, though. It also can't switch in with Stealth Rock up, neutering its reliability.
3.) It's not a sitting duck, per se; the problem is that it's difficult to get it inside in the first place, to the point where if you're in, you're probably going to click QD anyways. And if you're talking about non-QD sets, those get really heavy competition with Talonflame - if you really want that Bug-type move, it has U-Turn to bop the psychics.
4.) Agreed - bulkyrona is a thing - but it's low enough that after taking a hit, it's usually within range of priority or an opposing scarfer. As such, when you set up, you want to optimally be at full health.
2.) BP is pretty much only on M-Zor, though I agree that that's one of the Pokemon it can potentially set up on. It does leave Volcarona weakened for revenging, though. It also can't switch in with Stealth Rock up, neutering its reliability.
3.) It's not a sitting duck, per se; the problem is that it's difficult to get it inside in the first place, to the point where if you're in, you're probably going to click QD anyways. And if you're talking about non-QD sets, those get really heavy competition with Talonflame - if you really want that Bug-type move, it has U-Turn to bop the psychics.
4.) Agreed - bulkyrona is a thing - but it's low enough that after taking a hit, it's usually within range of priority or an opposing scarfer. As such, when you set up, you want to optimally be at full health.
Alright lets try and get some good discussion going :D
Swampert dropping hard makes sense. Not really a question of if it should drop, but where to. In my opinion, Swampert is much less effective because Rain builds that choose to use a Mega breaker are so much stronger theses days. The XY esque Rain build of Toed / Kingdra / SSer / Ferro / Torn-T / breaker is superior to Swampert Rain at this point. I've think seen flegg mention Pinsir Rain, and Heracross Rain is also a good playstyle atm. Swamp is nice (can't get prio TWaved!!) but seems more like a luxury to Rain at this point rather then a necessity. The rankings should reflect this, and being a notch below Omastar and Kabutops makes sense as the latter two are used on the better current Rain builds.
Gallade should also drop. Just doesn't really have a calling card these days. Medicham hits harder off the bat. Heracross at least stands a chance at beating Mega Eye. Lopunny cleans offense better than anything. So when exactly does Gallade deserve to be used over those? That's only the narrow scope of Fighting Megas as there's also Terrakion, Keldeo, and others to contend with. As I've said before, Gallade almost always takes the role of a generic Fighting type, and that's a high cost to pay especially when you're a Fighting type that's blocked by Sableye. B makes sense at this stage.
Now for some of my own nominations (please don't bite):
Mega Hera should probably drop as well. Just not as good right now, and the general offensiveness of the meta does not help matters much. In a fatter meta, Heracross is a punisher that breaks down pivots better than anything. However in a faster meta it becomes a much more prediction reliant type deal. Sub is probably the best move on it now as it eases prediction while still letting Hera do its job, but that also makes it slightly less good at breaking stall / balanced. I think Hera and Gallade both in B makes sense now, as a lot of the stuff in B+ just feels like they are on another level (such as Suicune, Victini, Terrakion, Breloom). Also Mega Bee just seems even with if not better than it current two B+ ranked Fighting types.
Finally, Mega Tyranitar should rise to B+. Ridiculous bulk, not a bad speed tier, coverage options that can eliminate damn near anything, even something like Rock Polish for the occasional surprise. Even a solid check like Lopunny can't switch in safely, or it could find itself bopped by Superpower. Due to massive bulk Mega Tyranitar excels in late game scenarios, where it does as good a job as any DDers of breaking down battered squads. I think it deserves a rise most for its ability to beat most of its own checks which intend to beat it by switching the DD (the Lopunny example above, Lando getting smacked by -1 Ice Punch, etc).
Now for some of my own nominations (please don't bite):
All this Espeon and Volcarona talk is taken seriously? And yet we STILL can't get Wobbuffet out of C+. There has been exactly 0 visible disagreement, and I'd like to think my reasons were more than good enough. We got actual cognitive thought processes around it, but instead we focus on shit like Volc and Espeon. Never a dull moment with this garbage heap of a thread. Lol, not sure why I'm still watching this.
what i don't know is why your bringing up those discussions, espeon who's discussion ended and volcorona who we know from AM's post both are not being moved up so idk why your comparing them to wobbuffet's old nomination to move up when the other 2 aren't. We can make all the nominations we want and have everyone agree but its ultimately up to the council to make the final decision; Take klefki for example, we had a nomination for it to move up from A- -> A and almost everyone agreed it should rise up, but when the changes happened klefki did not move up because the council ultimately thought and decided it should stay in A-, so if wobbuffet did not move up when all/most people agreed its because the council made the final decision to not move it up.
Lol, you completely missed the point in my post. . . My point was that they will acknowledge the questionable nominations, but not the ones people put discussion and actual thought process into. But, I suppose Wobbuffet is as viable as Chesnaught. Also, cute cookie points for the council buddy. They haven't acknowledged it at all. In the two times I've nommed it, and the two shifts that happened neither showed a denial of Wobb, at all.
The entire reason for my post was to show that this thread feeds off of stupid nominations but won't bat an eye when a good one that doesn't involve based lord Hoopa or Mega Altaria comes up. It'd be nice to at least know my nomination got denied, much less know why. This is that elitist shit everyone talks about, but fitting the stereotype is cool too I guess. Also, a nom for Wobb is no where near the nom for klefki. That was mostly backed by the same reasoning that got Hoopa to S. But feel free to compare apples to oranges if you wish.
Have to disagree here; Mege Heracross's effectiveness does not seem to have waned at all in the current meta. It has zero trouble punishing the frequently seen TankChomp + Steel cores, easily plowing through the former while making no contact whatsoever. While that Speed is a bit of a bummer, it doesn't seem to hinder it very much against offense thanks to its high physical Defense combined with very useful resistances to Dark and Ground, allowing it to do things like check Bisharp (which say Mega Medicham, a fellow Mega Fighting-type balance breaker, fails to do) and threaten the set up on passive Grounds like Hippowdon, non-Toxic Gliscor, and defensive Landorus-Therian. It definitely feels on par with the B+ mons at least.Mega Hera should probably drop as well. Just not as good right now, and the general offensiveness of the meta does not help matters much. In a fatter meta, Heracross is a punisher that breaks down pivots better than anything. However in a faster meta it becomes a much more prediction reliant type deal. Sub is probably the best move on it now as it eases prediction while still letting Hera do its job, but that also makes it slightly less good at breaking stall / balanced. I think Hera and Gallade both in B makes sense now, as a lot of the stuff in B+ just feels like they are on another level (such as Suicune, Victini, Terrakion, Breloom). Also Mega Bee just seems even with if not better than it current two B+ ranked Fighting types.
well my apologies than, but to me it looked like you were comparing wobbuffet's nomination to those 2, yes we do have stupid nominations and we have good nominations, but that shouldn't justify why wobbu should rise, and about its nomination; TBH ppl really over sold its capabilities in their post, over estimating it against other pokes and gave pretty bad examples that i myself have commented on. Wobbu is very passive, team reliant, to reliably do its best work it has to face a certain type of team (more offensive teams), and ppl compared it to the other shadow tag user gothitelle and based their arguments around it when they should be used against 2 opposite teams/cores, gothitelle is for stall cores and wobbuffet is best against offensive cores. It also doesn't help wobbu that it's complete set up bait for mega sableye sableye, knock off and U-turn being common, and having no form of recovery limiting itself at how much it can do especially if it gets burned from scald/will-o'd or just hit by toxic. So i hope this gave u some in-sight on why wobbu was not moved up, i of course could be wrong here about why it wasn't moved up but this is how i see it.
typically, viability council members respond to flawed or illogical nominations rather than nominations that have merit. the way in which we respond to legitimate nominations is through considering the change(s) as a group. when discussing potential changes, one of the first places we check is this thread.
wobbuffet's impact on a match is entirely based on matchup, and even in the most favorable matchup it often needs to win multiple 50/50s to be effective. it's not even remotely close to being on par with that of the pokemon in B-.
thank you for this. bad discussion is indefinitely cured by those who acknowledge it, complain about it, and provide nothing.
you can thank me later for giving you the attention you ever-desperately wished to have =)
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I mean, B- is mixed between legit B- mons (Lucario, Toxicroak) and borderline B-/C+ mons (Mandibuzz, Mega Sceptile). Wobbuffet is definitely not on par with Lucario and Toxicroak, but the overall value it possesses is equisidant or slightly higher than Mandibuzz or Mega Sceptile. 50/50s are a bit over-prominent when using it, but saying it isn't remotely close to being on par with B- mons is a bit of a stretch when B- is literally split between mons that belong there and mons that are only slightly better than C+ mons.
i guess if you knew your posts were bad you naturally were expecting sarcasm, haha. after all you called the thread a "garbage heap."
to everyone posting, if you have a problem related to the thread along the lines of "why are they ignoring me" instead of spamming the thread with your feelings just pm me and you can shit on me as much as you want
Is it crazy to nominate Mega Lopunny for S? I discussed it in the room today and it wasnt perceived harshly. The metagame shifts serve it pretty nicely, with the rise of Weavile and Mega Sableye especially. It's always been hovering around S and I havent seen such an offensive metagame in a long time, because of that S rank suits Mega Lopunny very nicely.
Tank chomp's a bitch but Ice punch is a thing!
Tank chomp's a bitch but Ice punch is a thing!
I wouldn't judge the quality of a nomination by how it is perceived by the OU room ._.
In all seriousness I don't really see anything that's made Lopunny so much better. It's not exactly that great against Sableye since the rest of Sab builds tend to have a couple answers plus Prankster Wisp can cripple it (and Sable can find ways to heal up later) or Protect can bop it for 50% HP. It's not really the greatest against Weavile either - yeah it checks it but it sure as hell isn't switching in and can actually be picked off when it's low. I can't really come up with a metagame trend that hurts its effectiveness but is it really that much better than it has been?
The problem with Lopunny in S is it simply isn't as dominant as the other S ranks. Zard X boasts the ability to actually blow through its own checks, Manaphy similarly to the point that teams overprepare for it all the time, Clefable is retardedly splashable and useful while Sableye's utility alone allows for certain strategies that no other mon could catalyze. Lopunny doesn't have any quality that makes it jump out from the other A+ mons in my eyes.
In all seriousness I don't really see anything that's made Lopunny so much better. It's not exactly that great against Sableye since the rest of Sab builds tend to have a couple answers plus Prankster Wisp can cripple it (and Sable can find ways to heal up later) or Protect can bop it for 50% HP. It's not really the greatest against Weavile either - yeah it checks it but it sure as hell isn't switching in and can actually be picked off when it's low. I can't really come up with a metagame trend that hurts its effectiveness but is it really that much better than it has been?
The problem with Lopunny in S is it simply isn't as dominant as the other S ranks. Zard X boasts the ability to actually blow through its own checks, Manaphy similarly to the point that teams overprepare for it all the time, Clefable is retardedly splashable and useful while Sableye's utility alone allows for certain strategies that no other mon could catalyze. Lopunny doesn't have any quality that makes it jump out from the other A+ mons in my eyes.
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