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Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V3 - Read Post 3451 Page 139

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I agree with chomp becoming S rank because most of the time it's either defensive or Sash rocker but on a few occasions it blows you back with a SD.

Also I personally think Starmie should b A or A+ due to it's big supportive role as a rapid spinner that outspeeds base 110 (max is 350) and also pretty much says, "Hey Garchomp, your going to die from an ice beam so are you going to scarifice your self or blow back on of your team mates. It is really hard to switch into unless your a bulky grass type or Slowbro.

Finally why is Scizor B rank? It still has amazing power and defog as well as that insane priority move. At least make it B+ or A-.
 
Acamm130 said:
Gaechomp is easily s imo. With a heavily offensive meta, tank chomp plays a key role in stopping volt turn and strong physical attackers in general. Plus, any of its other sets, offensive or even mega, are sure to catch your opponent off guard as the bulky set is basically what everyone runs their garchomp as (when was the last time you saw a scarf chomp?). I mean, the only thing I can think of that consistantly switches in and deals with this thing is Spdef skarm and kiss (if lacking stone edge/pjab/iron head). Anyway, chomp is definitely too centralizing to not be S.

Another nom I would like to make is...
Talonflame
A+ -> S
Now I know that several people won't agree with this but it kind of makes sense if you think about it. For one, it can cripple/deal with all of its checks and counters with the combination of will-o-wisp and natural gift. While it is weak to rocks, its resistances to bug, fire, steel, grass, fighting, and fairy coupled with the fact that with priority flying type attacks it can afford to invest a lot in bulk and can get hp back with priority roost makes it a solid defensive check to several key threats in the meta. With the offensive meta, talon is a fearsome sweeper/revenge killer that can not only sweep but check and cripple a large portion of the current meta and, like garchomp, I feel that it is too centralizing to not be in S (especially since its recent surge of usage).
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the problem with tflame (that isnt rocks) is almost similar to serp- if you dont have the right set, it gets walled by mons easily. offensive literally loses to chomp 99.9 percent of the time, especially with the rocks up. defensive is good but fast electric types (manec, thundy, etc) can eventually wear it down. It requires massive support to keep rocks off the field. Not to mention that you also lose to diance if you dont have steel wing- which is seen on band sets and is easily played around if banded. natural gift is the only option to beat tran/tar, which literally forces you to waste a slot or have specific support, so i mean that much support doesnt get S rank. A+ is good for it imo
 
A- and B+ look pretty fucked rn IMO (sorry if I mention something agreed upon in the last few pages I haven't payed much attention to the VR thread in awhile :o)

Mega slowbro drop to A-: Honestly there is not much of a reason to use this over regular bro. The added bulk helps yes but the loss of regenerator is just such a kill to it's longevity. Like half the game you're using Mbro you just leave it as regular bro so why would you even use that valuable mega slot on something that you aren't even using half the game? The surge of those annoying ass manectric + spikes teams definitely hurt it a lot too since mane in itself breaks Mbro and the constant hazards force you to not Mevo even longer just so you can keep bro healthy. That's not to say Mbro is not that bad though. The insane bulk that it possesses allows it to set up on a good amount of mons plus it has some pretty decent coverage options to play around with. Overall I feel like Mbro should just be one subrank lower than regular bro since a majority of the time you just want regenerator on slowbro and the perk of using another mega on the team plus the strengthening of these volturn+spikes builds just don't benefit Mbro at all.

Speaking of which Klefki rise to A: I have a feeling this was discussed recently but w/e. As mentioned above those volturn + spikes teams have gotten decently popular and klefki is the center-stone on these teams. Klefki is hands down the best spiker in the tier and thrives in a more offensive meta like the one we have atm. The amount of utility klefki gives in one slot is pretty insane considering it's like the only spiker that fits on offense, has priority twave, and is one of a handful of weavile switch-ins on offense. This mon just has a lot more presence in the tier and amongst common archetypes rn then that of a lot of these A- mons like MAero and celebi and I feel like it's definitely more comparable to that of skarm or gliscor in terms of it's usage and utility on the archetypes it is used in.

Mpinsir stay in A-: Yeah this shouldn't drop at all. The only only aspect of the meta I can see shifting against it is those mane + spikes teams but the rise of rain a bit also kind of counter acts that imo.
43 | Hoopa-Unbound | 30 | 3.83% | 36.67% |
44 | Politoed | 30 | 3.83% | 40.00% |
The last oras week in smogon tour politoad had as much usage as hoopa-u which suggests that rain is getting a bit more usage which does not surprise me given the offensive nature of this meta. This helps pinsir out because it is a fantastic mega to use on these rain builds as it slaughters grasses and gives the team a strong answer to stall. I feel like people don't give enough credit to pinsir being one of the top breakers in the tier. Defensive teams really have no answers to this since it's two counters are basically non existent(skarm being mainly spdef and lol zapdos) which leaves many of these defensive teams weak to pinsir. So yeah I wouldn't drop pinsir especially because the thought of it being in the same rank as stuff like terrak and Mlatias is a joke lol

Mmedicham rise to A: Have to agree with my TR bro dennis on this one. Similar to klefki's reasoning medi is a main piece to another common build going around which is those medi+pursuit trapper BO/HO teams. That core allows medi to run dual priority since no coverage moves are even needed after all the psychics are removed from play. Dennis summed it up perfectly when he said that priority allows it to beat some things it really shouldn't. Like 2 min rolls from fake out and bp does 53% to av torn-t lol Medi is just a way better mon than pretty much everything else in A-(except for maybe klefki which i think should rise as well) and is definitely a threat I pay more attention to similar to other A caliber mons like kube and Mgyara. Getting walled by Msab is pretty annoying but I feel like that flaw doesn't compare to the positives it brings to it's builds atm. Pretty strong mon rn it definitely deserves to be put up into A with the other mons that are the center pieces of common builds in the meta like manectric and zard-y.

There's still other things I feel like can be moved around in A- and B+ but this post is long as shit already so I'll talk about some of the other things I'm thinking about in a later post.
 
Uh Garchomp being the best Pokemon in A+ doesn't necessarily mean it's S, and yes I mean literally in terms of everything put together it's arguably the best one in A+. Most of the reasons were stated by Halycon although jaguar360's points about having no switch ins is a big exaggeration due to the nature of how Garchomp will be implemented on most teams, in terms of providing a blanket utility more so than an overbearing or fantastic threat amongst the likes of Char-X, Clef and Mana. If you want to change around stuff to reflect centralization more than threat level then I guess you have a case otherwise, seeing as how Garchomp has been the #1 used mon in Smogtour this season across all weeks I believe if I'm not mistaken. Otherwise you're trying to battle a lot of perspectives more than an objective standpoint on another borderline S case where people aren't satisfied with their favorite toy being in S.

Pokepals statement of its centralization trended towards a meta more inclined in its Ice usage with the likes of Weavile and HP Ice users gaining usage such as Thundurus which is not really holding Garchomp back but it's pretty contradictory to emphasize on meta trends that have been in effect for quite some time now and even things like Ice Punch M-Gross and M-Lopunny is practically a standard to offset Garchomp and the increased usage of Lando-T, ie not something chomp likes. Implying Garchomp is any sort of an answer to Azumarill is somewhat of a travesty and more shows how much effort one goes to actually tackle Azumarill more than Chomp at times lol. The aspect of punishing hazard removers is a two way streak because the predominant ones in Starmie, Excadrill, and Latios all have the offensive capabilities either individually or in unison with their common builds to deter or remove chomp out of the picture. Bulky Starmies relevancy is practically a moot point when its offensive set is able to eliminate or put almost every viable rocker in a bad spot, Chomp included, while being able to punish so many of the offenses roaming about. Latis v Chomp is all based on circumstances you can't really just assume that the position is always in Chomps favor, hint hint, a lot of times unless you made a play and half Chomp is about to be on the receiving end of a Draco Meteor thus forcing the Chomp players hand.

I guess it's really w/e at this point as to where people put it seeing as how there's always that guy or girl that wants something from A+ to go to S like all the Mega Scizor hype, boy has that thing gotten lackluster huh? I understand some sentiments for S but some of these points are really overblown on the assumption its implementation is on equal footing to some of the S in terms of managing said threat from teambuilder and in practice.

Talonflame is in no way shape or form S. That's just insane.
 
Acamm130 said:
Another nom I would like to make is...
Talonflame
A+ -> S
Now I know that several people won't agree with this but it kind of makes sense if you think about it. For one, it can cripple/deal with all of its checks and counters with the combination of will-o-wisp and natural gift. While it is weak to rocks, its resistances to bug, fire, steel, grass, fighting, and fairy coupled with the fact that with priority flying type attacks it can afford to invest a lot in bulk and can get hp back with priority roost makes it a solid defensive check to several key threats in the meta. With the offensive meta, talon is a fearsome sweeper/revenge killer that can not only sweep but check and cripple a large portion of the current meta and, like garchomp, I feel that it is too centralizing to not be in S (especially since its recent surge of usage).
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Alright, I'll bite.
I'll start by saying there is no way in hell TFlame should go to S. Sorry to pop that for you, but here's why. Although yes, all the things you pointed out are things it does have and take advantage of, it's no where near enough to push it into S. It's typing is decent, but nothing to write home about, being as rock weak as it is and relying on Recoil moves is a HUGE problem. Yes, it has roost, but anyone worth their salt is going to take that thing out before it gets the chance, and if you don't roost, well, chances are your Tflame is at about 30%, only to start the cycle all over again. It's support role consists of Will-o-ing things, and uhm. . . Yea. . . That's about it. It provides less support than mlop does, and is just about on par with mlop as far as being an offensive monster goes. Also, let us not forget that other S rank nomination makes TFlame cringe, and it's omnipresence in this meta makes it hardly worth being A+ in my personal opinion, but that's neither here nor there.

In short, losing 50% upon being sent out and being reliant on Recoil moves don't mix well, and I'd honestly say A+ may actually be a bit too high, but I can see a few reason for it being there. Regardless, in no way should it ever be S.
 
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S ranked mons are suppose to represent that they are great mons to use in ORAS OU and usually require minimal if not any outside support from teammates to perform their job effectively. Just going off of what Moose is saying, Talonflame doesn't represent this because of its necessity to keep Stealth Rocks off the field and needing things like Rotom-W, Slowbro, *insert fat talon wall here* weakened to a great majority for it to be a huge threat. CharX needs the same thing being S ranked, but it's obvious advantage is that once you are able to get a mega-evolution off, it's SR weakness decreases and it is able to check a larger majority of the meta like Mega-Manentric, Thundurus (if Sp Def), Rotom-W, etc. and can try to set up a Ddance and revenge or possibly clean your team without a lot of effort, all of which talonflame isn't capable of doing. Not only SR, but even it's most common moves being Brave Bird and Flare Blitz keeps Talon on a timer as Of Moose & Men mentioned, which is very troublesome for it.

It's best sets are SD and Sp Def sets, and maybe band, but that's kind of it. SD is one of it's best sets to be using right now with offense increasing in usage on today's ladder, as just a simple Jolly SD 2 atk Roost is just great with Lopunny and slower Electric mons like Raikou on the rise. The Sp Def set i haven't seen as much anymore, probably because Rotom-w is used more, and the banded set is still decent, although worn down way to quickly for it to score maybe 2 kills.

I'm not trying to bash Talonflame, I think it's a great mon for OU right now since offense is on the rise a lot on the ladder, but being A+ rank is where it should stay, if not drop to A. I'm actually not quite sure why it's A+. Yes, it can check Scizor, Serperior, Volcarona, revenge fighting types (although not switching-in to them) etc. but considering that we are seeing more niche things like Quick Attack Lopunny, an increase usage in Rotom-W, Goth Stall still being able to handle the stallbreaking set by just tricking it and you not having a pursuit user, it's getting more and more awkward to run talon in the current meta if we are talking about usage. Mega Diancie is also getting more noticed, also funnily enough, Tank Garchomp "checks" Talon nowadays, although it hates getting burned from Sp def variants, and it can surprise Talon with a Stone Edge on faster variants, although gimmicky. Being this, as well as my other examples, I think making Talon S ranked is kind of pushing it.
 
Excuse me if I screw this post up. I haven't said anything in this thread since Clef joined S and keldeo dropped but I figured I would add my 2 cents to the Garchomp and Talonflame for S debate anyway.

I'm Gonna put this as simply as I can neither of them should rise past A+. As fantastic and omni-present as both seemingly are they each lack a key trait which in my opinion truly seperates the S ranked pokemon from rest of the pack ''the ability to overcome there checks and counters'' and to do so ''with minimal comprimise of Core sets''.
Talonflame without resorting to natural gift and giving up both an item and move slot will always struggle to get past the likes of Tyraniter, Diancie, Heatran and Garchomp who not only switch in with impunity each time but use smogon bird for free-turns. This is not even counting the support needed to keep rocks off the field or the reliance on recoil moves that put a timer on its potential. Even pokemon it can supposedly beat like Clef can troll it by going Max Def and killing it with recoil or lopunny who kills with fake out and quick attack after rocks.
Garchomp I'll admit has more versitility then smog bird but is little better at dealing with its checks and counters constantly struggling with Altaria, Clefable, Azumarill, Sableye, Slowbro and Gliscor. Even if it builds to power past some of them such as LUM Swords dance for sableye, Life orb for clef and Gliscor or Scarf it simply makes itself more vulnerable to its other checks and that's ignoring the lost bulk as well. Latis and weavile will almost always be capable of revenging you to. If you use alternative move's your likely opening yourself to threats outside this list and whilst garchomp does have options it only has 4 move's and cant fit everything it wants to on 1 set

Both have to kinda go to extreme's to get past there checks and counter so Suffice to say neither deserve S

Compare those 2 to Our resident S rankers. Zard X is a pokemon can rip through entire teams with little effort, can Troll ground based checks by setting up in its base form and either ignore's revenge killers by using Dragon dance or Breaking bulky mons with SD. Even quagsire falls if it switchs into outrage
Manaphy tho easily revenged essentially destroy's anything slower and basically picks what checks it getting past even Unaware Clef by simply going modest Rain dance instead of timid
Clefable as it stands is probably the most versitile pokemon in the game but even if we just use the Magic guard calm mind set. It needs just 3 move's to do its job and set up from there picking a 4th move based on your team. Once all its potential options have been taken into account the only surefire Switch in is Physical Victini. Guess wrong and you could be dealing with a 3+ clef by the time you adjust strategy, have a dead mon on your hands or be praying to the hax gods Paralysis does not beat you.

Garchomp and Talonflame unless they sacrifice traits that make them the pokemon they are simply cant match it with the S ranks when it comes to beating there checks and counter's and until Someone comes up with a way to do so They should both stay A+
 
I have a few issues with Garchomp to S.

The first one is that is regarding the effectiveness of SD sets and the role they would play in a rise. While offensive sets may work "better" now because they are less common, this is due to a surprise factor and not because the sets themselves got better. The metagame is more offensive than when Chomp was in A, so setup opportunities are not abundant, and faster threats have emerged since then, particularly Weavile. The SD offensive sets weren't even enough on their own to push Chomp to A+, the Rocky Helmet set is what did that.

Next is the concept of versatility. Yes Chomp has a number of sets that it can run with different functions. However each set in itself is quite linear bar a few things like SD fatchomp. This is not the same as Clefable's versatility: it both walls a great number of relevant threats and threatens to sweep teams itself (not to mention the seemingly ubiquitous speed control it carries) in one set. Garchomp is either walling shit, wallbreaking or cleaning but does not compress these roles together. Thus while it is versatile, its versatility is spread across sets so no single one of them amounts to S rank in itself. When Altaria rose many argued offensive DD was the best set but I would contend that DDD made a strong push as it not only walled a ton of the metagame but was a threat to sweep long term and could provide team support in Heal Bell.

Garchomp is a great pokemon but when I see a Garchomp on the opposing team I am not thinking of it as my primary concern unlike when I see Zard X, Manaphy, Sableye or Clefable.
 
Honestly you people are thinking about Garchomp to S the wrong way. Yes, it is incredibly spashable and versatile, but these traits won't push it alone to S; rather, they push it up to the pinnacle of A+. The real argument Chomp has going for it is based on overcentralization and defining the metagame. Over time, Chomp has become the de facto SR lead for offensive teams (Tankchomp OR Sashchomp), replacing Lando-T. This is obviously very significant, because offensive teams make up a very large portion of the teams out there. Because of this, Garchomp is easily as meta-defining as the other mons in S rank. Due to this, Garchomp may be easier to prepare for, but it is just as necessary to prepare for as the other S Ranks because of how common and splashable it is. The usage stats prove this point even further: it is the undisputed most used mon in Smogon Tour ORAS OU by far, almost 5.5% more than the next most used mon (viewable here at http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/smogon-tour-20-usage-stats.3549297/ ).

Overall, Chomp is too metagame defining to be left out of S rank, and it is used so much that it has to be threatening on the level of the other S rank threats.
 
bludz said:
Garchomp is either walling shit, wallbreaking or cleaning but does not compress these roles together. Thus while it is versatile, its versatility is spread across sets so no single one of them amounts to S rank in itself.
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This is a great quote imo. I think whenever we discuss "versatility" in regards to other mons in the future we can probably use this to base our views of whether or not a mon really is as versatile as some might say.
 
Mr James Grey said:
This is a great quote imo. I think whenever we discuss "versatility" in regards to other mons in the future we can probably use this to base our views of whether or not a mon really is as versatile as some might say.
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Uhh, not really. I think you are confusing versatility with role compression, which are two different things. Versatility is how many different sets a mon can run that fulfill different roles, while role compression is being able to run sets that fulfill more than one role at the same time.
 
quagback2qc said:
Uhh, not really. I think you are confusing versatility with role compression, which are two different things. Versatility is how many different sets a mon can run that fulfill different roles, while role compression is being able to run sets that fulfill more than one role at the same time.
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I don't think I quite worded it the way I meant. I agree that versatility and role compression are being seemingly confused in my post. I more mean the quite in regard to S rank noms, I'll edit my post to clarify.
 
I'm just gonna go ahead and delete my posts because kind user AM reminded me that I'm doomb as fuck.

Sorry to waste your time.

To amend for this, I'm just gonna say that Garchomp should not be S. It's not that centralizing to me, hell, I would admit that MSab is probably more centralizing than it. Most points have been siad already though, so I'll stop here before I get flamed for having an opinion.
 
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lol mega sab is broken

It's S because of the support it provides to teams, it singlehandedly shuts out a bunch of hazard stacking balance teams because Magic Bounce with a solid defensive typing and recovery is just bs. It itself is arguably a garbage mon, but the support it provides to Stall teams (lets be real, this is the only reason Goth stall is viable in the first place) and the fact it just straight up defines an entire playstyle and is unmatched for that role is more than enough to keep it in S.
 
Edit: changed my mind

Just deleted some posts regarding a nomination for an unranked pokemon to be ranked. These posts contained no replays of said pokemon in action.

Supply replays in unranked -> ranked nominations please or your post will be deleted. I thought this had been gone over a bunch but I guess I'll re-state it to alleviate any confusion ._.

AM Edit: May as well save this post to copy / paste this seeing as how in about 2-3 pages it'll happen again lol.
 
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593.gif
D --> C-

While Jellicent is not awesome, it has a few specific niches that make it worth a shot on certain semi-stall teams. Spikes stacking teams are really common, and Jellicent is an excellent teammate for many spikes setters. It synergizes with many spikes setters typing wise and being able to spinblock against both Starmie (without LO TBolt) and Excadrill (without LO) is really great for spikestacking teams, especially because many teams rely on a spinner to lessen their hazards weakness. Most opposing hazards stack teams prefer a spinner, so Jellicent gives you a big advantage in these games.

Defensively it’s not lacking either. Even though it doesn’t have Mews niche with a really fast wisp and taunt which stops nearly every rock setter, it can still annoy many defensive cores with the speed tier that allows it to outspeed really important pokemon on balance like Ferrothorn, Hippowdon, Clefable and defensive TTar. All these pokemon are extremely common both as defensive pokemon and as hazards setters, so when combined with the spinblocking niche you have a huge advantage in hazards stacking matchups. Faster hazards setters like Heatran, Tankchomp and Lando-T don’t like Jellicent either because of its access to reliable recovery, Taunt and of course Scald.

Water Absorb is not that important most of the time but it makes Jellicent the best Keldeo switchin in the game, with the added bonus that Pursuit users don’t want to switch in against a Wisp or Scald, which makes it really difficult to pursuit trap. In the end, the combination of Water Absorb, its movepool and its typing make many common balanced builds pretty weak to Jellicent (for example Mattybrollic’s / Prince Python's Mega Zam balance) Even Mega Sableye builds are heavily annoyed by Jellicent because it is able to burn Sableye and outspeed the most common clerics, while having the typing and movepool to beat pokemon like Starmie, Suicune, Heatran and Hippowdon.

The ability to spinblock, spread status, break defensive cores and perform a defensive role in a water type check, give it unique niches over pokemon like Mew and Mega Sableye. The fact that nowadays many teams rely on hazards control and slower defensive pokemon to beat offensive powerhouses give Jellicent an amazing matchups against both semi-stall and balanced teams, while still not being deadweight against offensive teams. In my opinion D rank is too low for a pokemon with the capabilities of Jellicent.
 
I too support Jellicent to C-. Probably the best defensive spinblocker after M-Sableye, as it beats most Starmie and Exca, the two most popular spinners right now.

Also, as an aside, I think Quagsire is really underrated for NON-STALL teams. Yes it is passive and is susceptible to status, but that's really the extent of its weaknesses. It counters 3/4 of the current S ranked mons (Energy Ball-less Manaphy), along with Altaria, Bisharp, Lopunny, (non-Grass Knot) Megagross, Scizor, Talonflame, Weavile, (non-Grass Knot) Thundurus, etc. Like I said, I don't know why it's only really used on stall teams, I think it's pretty good as a defensive pivot for balance teams as well.
 
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 216-255 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Jellicent: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- 71.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, sandstorm damage, and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Sableye: 148-175 (48.6 - 57.5%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO (people don't even run max defense either)
"spinblocking" amirite. a 1/3 of exca run Life Orb, and leftovers is negated in sand as well, so if rocks are up it loses to exca even if its not LO. Especially because almost half of exca run adamant 252 attack (1825 ou usage stats)

The only mon that truly spinblocks excadrill is gourgiest-super
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Gourgeist-Super: 130-153 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

As for starmie, you've already mentioned that it can't wall LO thunderbolt.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 144+ SpD Mega Sableye: 140-165 (46.2 - 54.4%) -- 54.3% chance to 2HKO (the spread people actually use)
Factoring in analytic, mega sableye does not exactly spinblock starmie either.
The same holds true for gourgeist and ice beam.

Also, Jellicent struggles to do much to sdef tran, which can shut it down with taunt, toxic it, and take maybe 30%~ from scald. Factoring in a potential protect, jelli gets worn down very quickly. It must also guess correctly between burning ferro to stomach power whips and taunt'ing to prevent hazards/leech seed to get the best matchup, because if it guesses wrong it's taking a solid 70%~ from power whip. Wisp can also miss.
Finally, mega zam pretty freely just CMs on jelli and 2hkos with shadow ball; the matchup vs mattybrolic's team is being vastly simplified.

Besides, this "huge" hazard stacking matchup is also being blown out of proportion. Ferro has the potential to put a big dent in you, and its subpar "spinblocking" abilities aside, you have to remember that pretty much every water type has this "huge advantage" as most rock setters (ferro aside, which jelli isn't gauranteed a great matchup against) are going to be falling to the big, bad waters of OU: keldeo, manaphy, and azu.

You mention it "breaks defensive cores" lol. It has 60 base speed which falls short of heatran, gliscor, mew, mvenu, rachi, and skarm, and it can't touch mega-sableye outside of a scald burn, and still loses to grasses like celebi and amoong. One thing you forgot to mention is that it's a "stallbreaker" that can't be crippled by goth, unlike most other taunt+status users like mew, tran, and mandi, but it doesn't make much of a difference when heatran can just outpace you, toxic you, and wall you with the rest of the team. There's more to stallbreaking than taunt+status/setup.

Despite all the trash i talked about jellicent, it's a mon that keld can't just scald its way through, and has reliable recovery+some bulk. At any rate it's much better than D rank crap so i'm not against a raise, I just think that jellicent is really being blown into something its not.
 
Yeah I think when you look at Jellicent's capabilities it requires less support than say Shedinja and isn't as team specific as Blissey (not to say it isn't team specific lol).

It's actually able to wall some stuff like Keld and being able to annoy Clefable with Taunt is pretty amazing for a fatmon that would otherwise be total setup fodder. Also it's something that prevents Medicham from spamming HJK which can be helpful for balance squads in general. I've used it a decent amount and I'll say that it's stallbreaking capabilities are a bit underwhelming but the fact that it can do so at all as a bulky mon is a pretty big boon for its viability and has team specific options like Ice Beam for Gliscor or Hex on other stuff if you combine with Wisp/Scald burns. I'd support a rise to C- but that's as far as I could see it go.

I also kind of think Cresselia should go back up to C. For sure it's not the greatest thing in this meta but it has retarded bulk. Weavile can't even take it out reliably at all without SD which is pretty crazy. Has enough support in options like T-Wave and Skill Swap for opposing stall builds and is really annoying to kill for offense. Physically defensive variants handily wall Mega Diancie and can even take on Kyurem-Black. This is something that Mew can achieve but it's going to lose with Spikes up; just isn't as bulky so any extra chip damage is going to prevent it from doing the same job.
 
Shokwav said:
I too support Jellicent to C-. Probably the best defensive spinblocker after M-Sableye, as it beats most Starmie and Exca, the two most popular spinners right now.

Also, as an aside, I think Quagsire is really underrated for NON-STALL teams. Yes it is passive and is susceptible to status, but that's really the extent of its weaknesses. It counters 3/4 of the current S ranked mons (Energy Ball-less Manaphy), along with Altaria, Bisharp, Lopunny, (non-Grass Knot) Megagross, Scizor, Talonflame, Weavile, (non-Grass Knot) Thundurus, etc. Like I said, I don't know why it's only really used on stall teams, I think it's pretty good as a defensive pivot for balance teams as well.
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I disdainfully agree. I like to use Quagsire, unfortunately, Manaphy can still potentially 2HKO it with Surf:

252+ SpA Manaphy Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 190-225 (48.2 - 57.1%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So I'm a little hard-pressed to call it a counter. Mega Charizard X can also 2HKO it with outrage, so the things that Quagsire is meant to counter can also lure it in and KO it so something else can sweep, as special mega Altaria can 2HKO it:


252+ SpA Pixilate Mega Altaria Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Quagsire: 262-310 (66.4 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

The point I'm trying to make is that it has to play carefully and unlike some other bulky waters, it cannot afford to just pivot in.
 
I'm not an OU moderator but I have mod powers from OU council and I've already explained to bludz an OU mod and TDK the thread runner of the situation so here it goes. I'm locking this thread in the hopes a new thread will be made and here is why.

With the departure of Henry and the reality of 0 involvement by its ranking team this thread will be revamped by a new ranking team. TDK will be part of the team but will not be running it so he's going to be part of its team in regards of a mons placement in the thread, so that's one member of the estimated 5-7 total that would be on team. This new ranking team will not have a leader for the time being until the OU moderation team, which has a say in that regards, says so specifically. I'm going to go ahead and put a criteria of what an application of sorts would be that you will be messaging bludz, tdk, and myself to see if you're qualified.

- Must have had activity in this thread

Since people like the juicy details of what goes on behind the scenes here's what I had to say about that.
the point is more or less I'm gonna state, lock thread, get new team together, you need to have contributed in thread in some way. Like this criteria of tour dudes that don't say a single word is f***ing stupid.
Click to expand...
This is gonna be the most important point. If you haven't really contributed to the thread in that manner don't bother messaging us to "apply" I guess we're gonna call it. If I needed to ask the opinion of tour guys, which I have done in the past when I ran / was part of team it's easy enough to just shoot them a PM on skype, PS, or irc to find out that information without the illusion of them being placed on team on the assumption they're doing a whole lot. This is pretty much like the biggest point there is that will trump everything else barring the third point I put.

- Generally known.

I mean this is sort of subjective and might be contradictory to that last point but you have to have somewhat of a name for yourself just so that we know who you are. I'm not expecting no McMeghan or Masterclass but if we have 0 clue of who you are it's kind of obvious we can't make judgement on any sort of capabilities or understanding.

- Had relevant points in thread.

As in when you stated your opinion you didn't make yourself look like an absolute moron, another subjective criteria. You maintained high quality posts that reflected on meta trends and used a bit of common sense when applying logic to your postings.

Uh bludz or TDK can add more if they feel like it but I think that encompasses a lot of what we're looking for. I'm part of this app process because I went ahead and took the initiative to do this after not seeing what I liked for a good while. This thing reaaaally needs a fresh start in terms of its ranking team actually investing some time in the thread so that the VR culture doesn't go into this slow decline that has been noted by a bunch of people both reputable and spectating wise have addressed to myself in terms of its direction and quality, so gee willickers look at that AM actually cares for once must be the apocalypse. I don't expect anyone to take the leadership role as I've stated to many others running this thread is unpleasant but the team should be willing to post and lead this in a respectable direction so we're not cringing every page to put it in blunt terms. Thread will be up at the discretion of new team and they can put their own vision of ranking and so forth from there.

The final point is to not expect a confirmation or even a reply from us if you made team you'll know if you made it when someone states what the team will be. State why you think you're good for team and then us guys will go from there. Preferably pm all three of us in myself, bludz, and TDK with the understanding we have lives outside of this so don't bother hounding us about anything either.

Locking.
 
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