omg....
Edit: Xerneas usually runs Aromatherapy to cure it from status, and there aren't really any relevant Taunt users besides Deo S and Yveltal, which both Xern can handle
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ORAS Ubers Viability Ranking Thread (Final ORAS Update - Post #1164)
- Thread starter Nayrz
- Start date
- Status
Edit: Xerneas usually runs Aromatherapy to cure it from status, and there aren't really any relevant Taunt users besides Deo S and Yveltal, which both Xern can handle
You're Right I retract my Earlier Statement paralysis on Xerneas Barely seems to work in situations
Erm I kind of get the Healing Wish argument in a way but it nowhere near detracts from the arguments kakuna presented, and also you fail to mention what move Latias is dropping to fit this move. Since I'm going to assume dropping either standard stab move is assumed silly by all, you have 2 slots to fit Defog, Roost and Healing Wish. Not having one of these means your team either needs a secondary source of hazard removal, can't fit roost therefore can't answer support Don(lol it barely does this anyway) or Kyogre etc in the long term or doesn't go with the support move and is directly comparable to, and almost certainly worse than Latios. You say Latias more solidly checks big threats but she fails to 2hko phys def ogre, fails to OHKO Pdon etc. So really how solidly is she checking these threats? I don't buy the Healing Wish argument for a second, I would almost never use Latias over Latios at this stage in the metagame and from what I've personally seen of top players teams currently, they wouldn't either. Dropping Latias to b+ would reflect how mediocre she is in most cases compared to Latios.
That's like saying Primal Groudon is "only" S+ rank because it's the best support mon in the tier. Klefki also cannot sit Xerneas down, but CAN sacrifice itself to allow a teammate to revenge it. Xerneas is fine where it is.
Golduck for C- plz
Golduck @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 176 HP / 160 Def / 148 SpA / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Surf
The given EV spread allows you to live Precipice Blades after Rocks 100% of the time and OHKO any Primal Groudon variant with the correct Water STAB. It also outspeeds max speed, +speed nature 95s, like Rayquaza and the
Vs. Offensive PDon:
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 255-301 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(if you switch in on the attack or on Rock Polish, if you switch in on SD you're faster and you OHKO)
148 SpA Golduck Surf vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 472-564 (126.5 - 151.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Support PDon:
4 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 201-237 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 408-484 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Golduck also has utility as a revenge killer for other Ubers threats once they have been weakened:
Vs MixQuaza:
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 117-139 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rayquaza: 352-416 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. SD Ray:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 256-302 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza: 316-372 (90 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Life Orb recoil
Vs. Band Ray:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 148-175 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza: 316-376 (90 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. Uber Scarf Lando-T:
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 180-213 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 348-412 (109 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Mega Salamence:
252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 217-256 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Facade (140 BP) vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 274-324 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 219-258 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 316-376 (95.4 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Salamence: 352-416 (106.3 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Ho-Oh:
208+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 253-298 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 176-210 (42.4 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 Life Orb turn
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 289-342 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 176-210 (42.4 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Brave Bird recoil
Vs. Mega Diancie:
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 219-258 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 186-219 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 242-288 (79.8 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 242-288 (100.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Excadrill:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 222-263 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 374-444 (103.3 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*if he SDs as you switch in, you ignore sand thanks to Cloud 9, outspeed and OHKO
Vs. TTar:
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 129-153 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (hit 1)
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 276-328 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (hit 2)
Vs. MLuke:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 262-310 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 384-452 (136.6 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. MAero:
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 156-184 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 276-326 (88.7 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. Blaziken:
252+ Atk Blaziken Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 127-150 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 252-297 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 156-184 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken: 318-374 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Mega Tyranitar:
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 270-318 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 332-392 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. Mlopunny (requires weakening):
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 204-240 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 200-236 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
Vs. Kyurem-W (outspeeds, but requires weakening):
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-W: 192-228 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. Arceus Rock (Requires weakening):
8 SpA Stone Plate Arceus-Rock Judgment vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 183-216 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Rock: 228-270 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs. Mega Khangaskhan (requires it to have been weakened before you can RK):
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 265-312 (76.8 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 192-228 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. EKiller/Refresh (again, requires weakening):
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 298-351 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 274-324 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Golduck @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Cloud Nine
EVs: 176 HP / 160 Def / 148 SpA / 24 Spe
Bold Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Focus Blast
- Surf
The given EV spread allows you to live Precipice Blades after Rocks 100% of the time and OHKO any Primal Groudon variant with the correct Water STAB. It also outspeeds max speed, +speed nature 95s, like Rayquaza and the
Vs. Offensive PDon:
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 255-301 (73.9 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(if you switch in on the attack or on Rock Polish, if you switch in on SD you're faster and you OHKO)
148 SpA Golduck Surf vs. 128 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 472-564 (126.5 - 151.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Support PDon:
4 Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 201-237 (58.2 - 68.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 408-484 (100.9 - 119.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Golduck also has utility as a revenge killer for other Ubers threats once they have been weakened:
Vs MixQuaza:
252 Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 117-139 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Rayquaza: 352-416 (100.2 - 118.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. SD Ray:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 256-302 (74.2 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Rayquaza: 316-372 (90 - 105.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Life Orb recoil
Vs. Band Ray:
252+ Atk Choice Band Rayquaza Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 148-175 (42.8 - 50.7%) -- 2.3% chance to 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rayquaza: 316-376 (90 - 107.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. Uber Scarf Lando-T:
252+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 180-213 (52.1 - 61.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 348-412 (109 - 129.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Mega Salamence:
252 SpA Aerilate Mega Salamence Hyper Voice vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 217-256 (62.8 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Facade (140 BP) vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 274-324 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Return vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 219-258 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Salamence: 316-376 (95.4 - 113.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Mega Salamence: 352-416 (106.3 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Ho-Oh:
208+ Atk Life Orb Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 253-298 (73.3 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 176-210 (42.4 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 1 Life Orb turn
208+ Atk Choice Band Ho-Oh Brave Bird vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 289-342 (83.7 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 176-210 (42.4 - 50.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and Brave Bird recoil
Vs. Mega Diancie:
252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 219-258 (63.4 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 186-219 (53.9 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 242-288 (79.8 - 95%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Diancie: 242-288 (100.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Excadrill:
252+ Atk Life Orb Excadrill Earthquake vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 222-263 (64.3 - 76.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill: 374-444 (103.3 - 122.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
*if he SDs as you switch in, you ignore sand thanks to Cloud 9, outspeed and OHKO
Vs. TTar:
4 Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 129-153 (37.3 - 44.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Chople Berry Tyranitar: 138-164 (34.1 - 40.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (hit 1)
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar: 276-328 (68.3 - 81.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock (hit 2)
Vs. MLuke:
252 Atk Adaptability Mega Lucario Close Combat vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 262-310 (75.9 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. -1 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Lucario: 384-452 (136.6 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. MAero:
252 Atk Mega Aerodactyl Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 156-184 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 40 HP / 0 SpD Mega Aerodactyl: 276-326 (88.7 - 104.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. Blaziken:
252+ Atk Blaziken Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 127-150 (36.8 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+2 252+ Atk Blaziken Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 252-297 (73 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Mega Blaziken Low Kick (80 BP) vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 156-184 (45.2 - 53.3%) -- 33.6% chance to 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Blaziken: 288-342 (95.6 - 113.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Surf vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken: 260-308 (86.3 - 102.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Blaziken: 318-374 (105.6 - 124.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Vs. Mega Tyranitar:
+1 252 Atk Mega Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 270-318 (78.2 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 332-392 (97.3 - 114.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. Mlopunny (requires weakening):
252 Atk Mega Lopunny High Jump Kick vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 204-240 (59.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Lopunny: 200-236 (73.8 - 87%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock and 3 layers of Spikes
Vs. Kyurem-W (outspeeds, but requires weakening):
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Kyurem-W: 192-228 (49.1 - 58.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. Arceus Rock (Requires weakening):
8 SpA Stone Plate Arceus-Rock Judgment vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golduck: 183-216 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Hydro Pump vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Arceus-Rock: 228-270 (51.4 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Vs. Mega Khangaskhan (requires it to have been weakened before you can RK):
252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Double-Edge vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 265-312 (76.8 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Kangaskhan: 192-228 (54.7 - 64.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Vs. EKiller/Refresh (again, requires weakening):
+2 252 Atk Life Orb Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 298-351 (86.3 - 101.7%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Silk Scarf Arceus Extreme Speed vs. 176 HP / 160+ Def Golduck: 274-324 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
148 SpA Golduck Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 166-196 (43.4 - 51.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Memez
or pdon can just not stay in on golduck.
I think I know who is next on the blacklist.
Golduck 4 Chansey Rank?
It is in fact less viable than Chansey. At least Chansey is not complete deadweight, it is just outclassed by Blissey. While Goluck is well... Golduck...
In all seriousness this proposal is actually an idea I can easily imagine a mod doing.
Sorry to kill the comedy GOLD here but let's get back to talking about other pokemon in Ubers.
Golduck 4 Chansey Rank?
It is in fact less viable than Chansey. At least Chansey is not complete deadweight, it is just outclassed by Blissey. While Goluck is well... Golduck...
In all seriousness this proposal is actually an idea I can easily imagine a mod doing.
Sorry to kill the comedy GOLD here but let's get back to talking about other pokemon in Ubers.
Well OBVIOUSLY you partner Golduck with Fairy Lock Klefki to prevent this
Who uses Pdon in doubles though......
He means 'partner' as in Pokemon that pair well on the same team, not Pokemon that necessarily operate beside each other on the field.
clean up the thread D:
If your going to Fairy Lock Groudon so it can be hit with a water move wouldn't it just be better to use Primal Kyogre instead?
Last edited:
Au contraire, Golduck is godly. 2:05:40 if you want to watch some glory. (I ended up losing but w/e) http://www.twitch.tv/pokeaim/v/25662260
cress is a viable tr setter since it tanks pretty much everything and can lunar dance / toxic / magic coat w.e. lots of utility moves possible (mostly team dependent). prob c-rank or so.
i like gira-o more than most dudes esp since sd arc-ghost gettin hella hype fsr and sometimes u just need to get that 40% chip dmg off on it. plus its more reliable of a defogger than u would think and also does well against the rising in popularity sd+twave pdon. i've kinda noticed teams are moving away from sr + plume groudon more and more and using offensive pdon or twave which means gira-o is just 'better' in that sense. sneak also can dick mewtwos and is just nice chip dmg in general. hitting klefki as a defogger is nice and something most arceus formes and lati@s cannot boast! a special set is ok too, but it's p hard to fit unless u tryna just make a tour squad for a 1-and-done.
i value deo-a p low. sr deo-a's niche is the matchup vs deo-s i guess but lol u cant abuse the ekiller afterward usually and u dont even get sr (or they get spikes) in exchange for switch momentum.. p bad for a mon walled by sableye.. lava plume burn prone too. worse deo-s in a lot of situations with sash. i feel like deo-s is mostly superior except the all out attacker set which is kinda like a worse mewtwo a lot of the time. klefki anyone?? who needs to pursuit lati when u could just kill it. super niche in general. has uses where u just wanna own lati or revenge kill opposing mewtwo or something, but yea..... b+
arceus-drag and bronzong are both b. u use arc-drag when u were gonna use ice beam / toxic / defog / recover arc-water. same niche but better since it can break ho-oh subs and the stab's nice. ur walled by fairies but whatever, what's arc-water gonna do. i guess u could justify arc-water with only ice beam when ur boned by diancie otherwise but lol????????? what team is that weak to it. mence check + ogre resist is cool. nothing really to say.. just better than b- stuff imo. same w. zong i feel. its good against the twave sd don that ppl are spamming to own stall and frees up ur own groudon for an offensive set. xern check / relatively annoying for some ho teams. dece mon.
i like gira-o more than most dudes esp since sd arc-ghost gettin hella hype fsr and sometimes u just need to get that 40% chip dmg off on it. plus its more reliable of a defogger than u would think and also does well against the rising in popularity sd+twave pdon. i've kinda noticed teams are moving away from sr + plume groudon more and more and using offensive pdon or twave which means gira-o is just 'better' in that sense. sneak also can dick mewtwos and is just nice chip dmg in general. hitting klefki as a defogger is nice and something most arceus formes and lati@s cannot boast! a special set is ok too, but it's p hard to fit unless u tryna just make a tour squad for a 1-and-done.
i value deo-a p low. sr deo-a's niche is the matchup vs deo-s i guess but lol u cant abuse the ekiller afterward usually and u dont even get sr (or they get spikes) in exchange for switch momentum.. p bad for a mon walled by sableye.. lava plume burn prone too. worse deo-s in a lot of situations with sash. i feel like deo-s is mostly superior except the all out attacker set which is kinda like a worse mewtwo a lot of the time. klefki anyone?? who needs to pursuit lati when u could just kill it. super niche in general. has uses where u just wanna own lati or revenge kill opposing mewtwo or something, but yea..... b+
arceus-drag and bronzong are both b. u use arc-drag when u were gonna use ice beam / toxic / defog / recover arc-water. same niche but better since it can break ho-oh subs and the stab's nice. ur walled by fairies but whatever, what's arc-water gonna do. i guess u could justify arc-water with only ice beam when ur boned by diancie otherwise but lol????????? what team is that weak to it. mence check + ogre resist is cool. nothing really to say.. just better than b- stuff imo. same w. zong i feel. its good against the twave sd don that ppl are spamming to own stall and frees up ur own groudon for an offensive set. xern check / relatively annoying for some ho teams. dece mon.
Nobody is saying golduck can't get rid of a groudon. The problem with golduck is that it's competely dead weight outside of it. Next to that, after killing pdon with a surf you have a weak mon locked into a water move in a tier filled with mons that can completely set up on you. In other words, even if it does work, you'll lose klefki and another mon for pdon, if not your entire team to a xerneas with a free turn of set-up.
What does Giratina-O even do? It lost its niche as being one of the two only spin-blockers, it gets worn down easily due to a lack of recovery, generational paradigm shifts like the proliferation of Life Orb + Shadow Claw Extreme Killer Arceus, which it used to check more reliably, and the introduction of Fairies, which block Dragon Tails, and so on force it to struggle, and of the Defoggers available I feel like it's one of the lesser dependable candidates to get the job done as a result of the above plus its subpar stats relative to the others.
Additionally, contrary to your rhetoric, I find its ability to beat Klefki as a Defogger as not providing too much of an edge since the opponent would most likely send out something that forces Giratina-O out after Klefki dies, with the net result being that Spikes are still up on your side, leaving you with the only benefit of having one layer of Spikes up as opposed to two. I also don't see nearly as many Mewtwos in ORAS.
All of these factors give me a difficult time fitting Giratina-O on teams and I actually believe that its standing in the ranks is high as of now. I'm fine with B+ but honestly I'd put it in B flat or B-. In my eyes its niche is its special set which I enjoy to use and I might be biased since it's just so much worse now compared to its power in BW2 but yeah I think this Pokémon's rank should be discussed a bit more here.
How exactly is LO Shadow Claw a point against Giratina-O? It's not a new thing and it still doesn't come close to OHKOing Giratina-O, if anything the LO recoil just means it will be harder to set up Arceus again after it gets smacked out by Dragon Tail.
Giratina-O also isn't really hard to fit onto a team. It blanket checks almost everything physical (the standard analysis set can survive a +1 Mence DE after Rocks which is pretty darn impressive), can antilead Deo, provides useful priority for things like Mewtwo and weakened Ghostceus, and is a pretty reliable Defogger with some nice advantages over Latios such as an easier matchup vs TWave Groudons and Earthquake to smack Klefki with. It also helps a lot that most of its weaknesses can be covered by Klefki, who also provides impressive role compression, and with the two of them covering so much it really gives you a fair bit of flexibility when picking other team members.
Giratina-O also isn't really hard to fit onto a team. It blanket checks almost everything physical (the standard analysis set can survive a +1 Mence DE after Rocks which is pretty darn impressive), can antilead Deo, provides useful priority for things like Mewtwo and weakened Ghostceus, and is a pretty reliable Defogger with some nice advantages over Latios such as an easier matchup vs TWave Groudons and Earthquake to smack Klefki with. It also helps a lot that most of its weaknesses can be covered by Klefki, who also provides impressive role compression, and with the two of them covering so much it really gives you a fair bit of flexibility when picking other team members.
Fireburn
"doesnt come close to ohkoing gira o" "can survie a +1 mence de after rocks" idk what calculator you use but
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Giratina-O: 328-387 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Giratina-O: 361-426 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
that's a lot of dmg,,, xd
Also LO Ekiller IS new compared to BW2 people never used that and now it's used on 99% of Ekillers, Giratina-O doesn't anti-lead Deoxys-Speed unless it itself runs Magic Coat (even then, it's a tie since Stealth Rock out-PPs Magic Coat, and if it DOESNT run MCoat despite its 4MSS, Deo-S just SRs on Gira-O then Taunts so how does it anti-lead idgi ?_?), again Mewtwo is rare and I just don't think SSneak priority chip damage is anything to go crazy about but that's just me. Also once Klefki gets Toxic on it it can wait before coming in while Giratina-O gets worn down and Play Rough does a lot.
I know these might be nitpicks on your counterargument but my point still stands that this Pokémon is hard to fit on teams and just in general isn't very good, IN MY OPINION!
ps Minority Suspect i wouldnt consider it the best answer to sd grouncrus because 99% run recover meaning you lose to it in a last mon scenario :P
"doesnt come close to ohkoing gira o" "can survie a +1 mence de after rocks" idk what calculator you use but
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Arceus Shadow Claw vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Giratina-O: 328-387 (74.3 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ Atk Aerilate Mega Salamence Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 244 Def Giratina-O: 361-426 (81.8 - 96.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
that's a lot of dmg,,, xd
Also LO Ekiller IS new compared to BW2 people never used that and now it's used on 99% of Ekillers, Giratina-O doesn't anti-lead Deoxys-Speed unless it itself runs Magic Coat (even then, it's a tie since Stealth Rock out-PPs Magic Coat, and if it DOESNT run MCoat despite its 4MSS, Deo-S just SRs on Gira-O then Taunts so how does it anti-lead idgi ?_?), again Mewtwo is rare and I just don't think SSneak priority chip damage is anything to go crazy about but that's just me. Also once Klefki gets Toxic on it it can wait before coming in while Giratina-O gets worn down and Play Rough does a lot.
I know these might be nitpicks on your counterargument but my point still stands that this Pokémon is hard to fit on teams and just in general isn't very good, IN MY OPINION!
ps Minority Suspect i wouldnt consider it the best answer to sd grouncrus because 99% run recover meaning you lose to it in a last mon scenario :P
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Gira-O in ORAS is very similar to Lando-T in XY, imo, in the sense that it's one of those Pokes compresses like 5 different roles into one Pokemon. It can check a wide variety of threats, but none of them it can check particularly well (Lando was similar, like seriously the only things it was a solid check to was Groudon and sand mons, and even that ran Lava Plume sometimes, Ekiller just SDs in its face again, Zekrom could use special moves, Ho-oh burnt it). Gira-O can be a good secondary check to a lot of things, but you can't rely on it to be a solid check to anything. It also has other utility, like Defog (kind of like how Lando had SR). In the end, Gira-O is ranked high and probably deserves to be because it can do so compress so many roles.
In terms of S-claw Ekiller, you can always just pump more EVs into bulk for Gira-O if you really find the need to.
In terms of S-claw Ekiller, you can always just pump more EVs into bulk for Gira-O if you really find the need to.
>Arceus-Ice
>C+
no. this is one of the best practical mence checks for offense, and ice is an amazing offensive typing rn. it can run fire coverage to scorch traditional checks (i use blast burn, more "optimal" people use Fire Blast), it is still bulky by ubers standards, and it's a lot of fun to use. i endorse this pokemon for B-, putting it in C+ is underselling it
>C+
no. this is one of the best practical mence checks for offense, and ice is an amazing offensive typing rn. it can run fire coverage to scorch traditional checks (i use blast burn, more "optimal" people use Fire Blast), it is still bulky by ubers standards, and it's a lot of fun to use. i endorse this pokemon for B-, putting it in C+ is underselling it
- Status