Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[truedrew]

Regarding the complete and utter confusion around type only bans etc etc I have only a few things to say:

1) your council has just been elected a short while back. Give them time damn it they need time to figure out the best way forward for monotype keeping in mind several things such as the community, how to progress monotype further, objectivity, ease of access to a broader community (Smogon) and even how the changes would affect the entire meta game as at the end of the day the council is there to insure that monotype is a enjoyable meta game which can hopefully someday become a singles format i mean PU broke the mild so why not us?!

2) your council are real people with actual lives/jobs and some even have other more pressing responsibilities. Give them time the council is not here to allay to each and every members issues as there are infinite problems that one can find but only a finite number of feasible solutions. Our community is like an economy :unlimited wants but a scarcity of resources. So please do not clamour into a bandwagon by posting 5-6 line posts which just rehash the same old arguments.

Post constructively and objectively and the council will notice your posts. These posts should actually be supported by facts like replays/stats/logs etc. @scipinion has made an amazing resource on the monops website which allows for so many comparisons. USE IT.

3) familiarise yourself with the new monotype policy which is one of promoting type use not necessarily making every type viable. Just as it is said in the third part of the tiering philosophy, there should be no overly broken type which rn I feel there is no super powerful type even though there are people whom feel otherwise.

RE READ THE PHILOSOPHY ESPECIALLY THE SUSPECT VOTERS YOU ALL HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THE AFFECT MEGA SABLEYE HAS FROM MORE THAN 2-3 TYPES!!!

Lastly taking the thread off focus does not help at all. Right now the main point is to discuss mega SABLEYE whom is the current suspect victim. Talking about other things like fucking type only bans is off topic. I understand some of the posts were actually relevant as they discussed the impacts that a global ban would have on ghost as a type but then there was talk of aegislash and that was when I said fuck it and did not read further because it became too confusing.


TL;DR
The council is new give them time.
Focus on the more relevant things like the current suspect.
Do not derail the thread it wards of other potential players whom look for a comprehensive introduction to monotype
REREAD THE TIERING POLICY.
Post smartly and objectively with support for your arguments and get noticed
???????
Profit

 

[scpinion]

Pressuring the council isn't the solution, and neither is debating about personal preferences.

If you feel a certain Pokemon should be type banned, provide reasoning as to why that complex ban is the better solution for said Pokemon, rather than just a simple ban. If you're convincing enough then perhaps the council will consider your complex ban proposal.

TI is right about pressuring the council on the overall policy of type-only bans. That isn't the way to go about affecting change.

The council voted unanimously on the updated policy when we made the decision to implement it. We thought it to be the best course of action for the metagame moving forward. That hasn't changed in the last couple months.

As Freeroamer pointed out earlier, removing type-only bans lowers the entry barrier to our metagame. This lets us continue to grow and attract new players, which, in my opinion, is one of the most important things for the continued health of the meta. New players bring new ideas and excitement, which helps keep the metagame from becoming stagnant.

Importantly, implementing this philosophy also provided a clear route to balancing the metagame, which many of you have remarked on in this thread.

Within this philosophy Aegislash is the outlier. We addressed that head on when announcing the major changes. No other ORAS Pokemon is as polarizing when it comes to competitive Pokemon, especially in Monotype. As such, we're treating it differently because this single exception provides a more diverse, healthy metagame.

Likely, the only major changes left in the ORAS metagame are the possible Sablenite ban and the possible introduction of Volcanion. Neither of these Pokemon are as polarizing as Aegislash, so I don't think they should get special treatment. All other pokemon have been shown to fit nicely within the current philosophy.

Thus, I think we should table the discussion of type-only bans until the introduction of the next game. Removing type-only bans with the exception of Aegislash was the decision the council made. Since implementing this change, we've seen the metagame continue to grow and people routinely remark on how this is the most balanced the Monotype metagame has ever been.

Those are great things that can define the ORAS Monotype metagame for future generations.

Now, there are a number of reasons to rekindle this discussion when the next Pokemon game comes out, which I'll put in hide tags below. However, we have no clue when that will be, so now is NOT the time for this discussion. This is the ORAS Monotype discussion thread.

Hide

1) There will likely be many new pokemon and megas w/ a dual typing, which creates the possibility of additional “Aegislash-like” pokemon.

2) Smogon is planning to tier mega-pokemon separately from their base form.
This sets the precedent of making tiering decisions to promote the diversity of their metagames. It is done at the cost of creating a couple inconsistencies where a mega-form falls below the usage of its base form and wouldn’t be usable in the lower tier.

We will have to make a major decision on how Monotype treats mega pokemon at this time. My opinion is we should maintain our current philosophy on mega evos that change typing. However, type-only bans are somewhat similar to this, in that they create a couple inconsistencies in order to promote a more diverse metagame.

3) Any changes we make would certainly shake up the metagame. It makes sense to get all the instability out of the way at the beginning, not introduce additional instability into an already developed metagame.

 

[TheAce22]

TI is right about pressuring the council on the overall policy of type-only bans. That isn't the way to go about affecting change.

As Freeroamer pointed out earlier, removing type-only bans lowers the entry barrier to our metagame. This lets us continue to grow and attract new players, which, in my opinion, is one of the most important things for the continued health of the meta. New players bring new ideas and excitement, which helps keep the metagame from becoming stagnant.

As tylacto said if players aren't even willing to take a look at what, maybe 5-7 type bans and memorize them, it's not a hard task. Anyone who actually cares about getting into playing Monotype will take the time to look at them and then your building a stronger community, people who really want to get into Mono, not people who are going to quit because they're not serious about it. So I think if one of the bigger reasons for no type bans is for new players, it's not a very valid one.

Edit: I'm not saying trying to continue the arguement about type only bans since what you said above, all I am trying to show you is that is not a very valid arguement.

 

[Acast]

As tylacto said if players aren't even willing to take a look at what, maybe 5-7 type bans and memorize them, it's not a hard task. Anyone who actually cares about getting into playing Monotype will take the time to look at them and then your building a stronger community, people who really want to get into Mono, not people who are going to quit because they're not serious about it. So I think if one of the bigger reasons for no type bans is for new players, it's not a very valid one.

Edit: I'm not saying trying to continue the arguement about type only bans since what you said above, all I am trying to show you is that is not a very valid arguement.

You cannot expect to gain new players by having the mindset of "If you're truly dedicated to the tier, you'll care enough to memorize all these complex bans." Dedication doesn't happen overnight. You first have to gain people's interest in the format and nurture their curiosity. Make it easy for them to get involved, and keep it interesting so they'll want to stay. If you stop caring about gaining new players and expect them to do a lot of memorizing just to get started, there's no way our metagame can possibly grow.

 

[The Immortal]

Enough. scpinion made it very clear what their philosophies and policies are. If you want get more reasoning from them or if want to have a debate with any of the council members then do so out of this thread.

 

[scpinion]

Enough. scpinion made it very clear what their philosophies and policies are. If you want get more reasoning from them or if want to have a debate with any of the council members then do so out of this thread.

In light of this, the following has been added to the original post of this thread.

This thread is for metagame discussion, not tiering philosophy discussion. If you would like to propose a policy change then please start a private message with the members of the Monotype council. If the council would like to field general discussion on the tiering philosophy then it will make a post requesting input from the community.

Really though, if you have concerns about the direction of the metagame please let us know. We want to do everything we can to continue developing the community and the metagame! One of the main things the council tries to do is be transparent when it comes to policy and fielding criticism an important part of that.

 

[Alexis Breeze]

has anyone tried reg vanilla Hoopa on Ghost? Does it have any uses?

 

[lax]

has anyone tried reg vanilla Hoopa on Ghost? Does it have any uses?

Regular Hoopa hits really hard and has a decent movepool but isn't really used on ghost. Idk how to say this but it just doesn't really "fit" on ghost as most people use the standard team, (mega sab, chande, gengar, aegi, golurk, and jellicent) which is pretty balanced. Chandelure, the one mon I'd consider replacing with for hoopa, is deemed "better" than hoopa because of its typing, its access to fire stab, and its better speed tier. While hoopa does have its own unique stab, having good psychic coverage doesn't help ghost as much anyways. Hoopa is also really frail on the defensive sides and is 4x weak to 2 types, ghost and dark. Overall, it just doesn't seem as useful to ghost teams.

 

[Sabella]

Regular Hoopa hits really hard and has a decent movepool but isn't really used on ghost. Idk how to say this but it just doesn't really "fit" on ghost as most people use the standard team, (mega sab, chande, gengar, aegi, golurk, and jellicent) which is pretty balanced. Chandelure, the one mon I'd consider replacing with for hoopa, is deemed "better" than hoopa because of its typing, its access to fire stab, and its better speed tier. While hoopa does have its own unique stab, having good psychic coverage doesn't help ghost as much anyways. Hoopa is also really frail on the defensive sides and is 4x weak to 2 types, ghost and dark. Overall, it just doesn't seem as useful to ghost teams.

Going to expand on what laxuy said it is quite bulky on the spdf side so against more passive teams it hit extremely hard while also having a solid movepool and coverage to hit dark types and mandibuzz SE. But laxuy is right you would have to remove one of those generic six i dont reccomend move chandelure bc of the ncie fire water core that is created with jellicent but rather golurk seems like it could be potentially dropped.

 

[lax]

Going to expand on what laxuy said it is quite bulky on the spdf side so against more passive teams it hit extremely hard while also having a solid movepool and coverage to hit dark types and mandibuzz SE. But laxuy is right you would have to remove one of those generic six i dont reccomend move chandelure bc of the ncie fire water core that is created with jellicent but rather golurk seems like it could be potentially dropped.

Nah, I gotta disagree with that. Golurk is nearly an essential on ghost teams as it provides stealth rocks for ghost and is the reason why ghost has favorable matchup vs some types like fire, bug, ice, etc that cannot remove rocks. (They usually don't run defog but there are some teams that do) Plus, let's not forget everybody's favorite move... 100% dynamic punch xd

 

[Alexis Breeze]

I guess it could only work on a TR team then. Plenty of setters (including suicide leads)

 

[Sabella]

Nah, I gotta disagree with that. Golurk is nearly an essential on ghost teams as it provides stealth rocks for ghost and is the reason why ghost has favorable matchup vs some types like fire, bug, ice, etc that cannot remove rocks. (They usually don't run defog but there are some teams that do) Plus, let's not forget everybody's favorite move... 100% dynamic punch xd

i agree thats just a potential drop scenerio for someone who might want to use hoopa. Ive seen some successful ghost teams without golurk

 

[Arash]

What nobody seems to have brought up is that ghost is weak to ghost and dark attacks. Hoopa-C takes 4x damage from ghost and dark attacks, while offering in return useless psychic STAB and a useless resistance to psychic attacks. This is the worst synergy possible on a ghost team. There is a reason that Magcargo (4x weak to water/ground) is not used on Rock or Fire teams...

Even on a TR team, Ghost has many options that don't instantly get demolished by ghost/dark attacks (Cofagrigus, Chandy, Dusknoir/clops, etc. etc.), and its secondary STAB is literally an invitation for dark types to switch in and destroy your team.

 

[Thimo]

What nobody seems to have brought up is that ghost is weak to ghost and dark attacks. Hoopa-C takes 4x damage from ghost and dark attacks, while offering in return useless psychic STAB and a useless resistance to psychic attacks. This is the worst synergy possible on a ghost team. There is a reason that Magcargo (4x weak to water/ground) is not used on Rock or Fire teams...

Even on a TR team, Ghost has many options that don't instantly get demolished by ghost/dark attacks (Cofagrigus, Chandy, Dusknoir/clops, etc. etc.), and its secondary STAB is literally an invitation for dark types to switch in and destroy your team.

Hoopa doesn't return "Useless" Psychic STABs. It can return Shadow Balls with STAB and Focus Blasts which are just as strong as Shadow Balls. I think it is best used with Assault Vest and from experience it can easily sponge 1 or even 2 special Dark or Ghost attacks.

252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 304-360 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 280-336 (76.9 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 300-352 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

 

[Arash]

Hoopa doesn't return "Useless" Psychic STABs. It can return Shadow Balls with STAB and Focus Blasts which are just as strong as Shadow Balls. I think it is best used with Assault Vest and from experience it can easily sponge 1 or even 2 special Dark or Ghost attacks.

252 SpA Chandelure Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 304-360 (83.5 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 280-336 (76.9 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 300-352 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Since I was curious I ran my own calcs as well:

252+ SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Hoopa: 300-352 (82.4 - 96.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
vs
252+ SpA Hydreigon Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 270-318 (66.8 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Jellicent is not holding AV and has the same spread as AV Hoopa in this case, with the ability to recover damage and use status moves. Additionally, Jellicent (and all other ghosts for that matter) has a better defensive typing with resists that are actually useful (Hoopa-C, besides the normal/fighting immunity found on every other ghost, has a whopping two resists to two of the worst attacking types in the game, poison and psychic).

Let's try an attack that they both take neutrally:

252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Hoopa: 181-214 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
vs
252+ SpA Hydreigon Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Jellicent: 219-258 (54.2 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Hoopa does take neutral hits a little better than Jellicent, and does provide the power to OHKO some pokemon back. However, Jellicent can recover damage, burn and taunt threats in return, and also takes water/fire/ice/steel hits better than Hoopa (at the cost of taking electric/grass hits worse). The utility that Jelli can offer for a ghost team far outweighs the walling/attacking capabilities of Hoopa-C, especially due to Hoopa's crummy speed tier for an attacker (10 less base speed than Hoopa-U, which is commonly forced to wear a scarf to be a useful attacker on Dark). Not to mention, Hoopa is definitely not switching in on anything known to carry any ghost/dark attacks (getting OHKO'd by unboosted Mega-Gallade's Shadow Sneak after rocks damage, for instance)

Besides all this, Focus Blast is useful for a ghost team but I would rather rely on Gengar (who is slightly weaker but can actually hold a Life Orb to outdamage Hoopa, and has a much better speed tier) or Golurk (100% accurate DynamicPunch) for my fighting attack needs. Trick Room can be handled better with Clops/Cofagrigus who don't roll over and die to Shadow Sneak / Sucker Punch.

 

[Wanka]

Why are you comparing hoopa to magcargo and jellicent lmao. Those mons have no business being compared.

As for hoopa. Laxus hit the nail on the head in saying that the only real mon it can replace is chandelure because they fill a similar role on ghost in being a hard hitting special attacker. Similar to hoopa U, the speed is really what can make hoopa tough to use at times. I don't like it as a scarfer either because it doesn't have access to a special stab over base 100 and life orb sets just get offensively checked super easily and can be really tough to get in especially on ghost where the type really has no means of gaining momentum. The only playable set as shown above is defo AV. I don't see AV hoopa doing very much damage to balance teams but I guess it can be somewhat annoying if it can find its way in on special attacks like magnezone or something and start dishing out hits.

Hoopa is kinda hard to give an accurate analysis on because people just simply don't use it so it's hard to make an accurate conclusion.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Hey guys, been a while.

Hoopa has high special attack, usable attack, and a decent special movepool, but it's typing is atrocious, and basically highlights every one of Ghost's worst fears. I agree with what iWanka said in what Hoopa isn't used much in Monotype Ghost; it doesn't really land a spot on the "Generic Ghost" image, and in my opinion, it's defensive typing is too terrible to run a viable Assault Vest Set. Psychic/Ghost has two weaknesses that Ghost really hate. It has two resistances, but Ghost has ways of easily dealing with both of them. On top of that, Hoopa-Confined has non-existent defense, so it shouldn't be hard killing AV Hoopa if you have a physical attacker. Hoopa's typing and lack of reasonable physical bulk is why I think it isn't a staple.

 

[Melvilicious]

The most problematic thing about Sablenite, is the ability and the way it can boost with Calm Mind, putting it almost immortal Pokémon. Magic Bounce means that you can't Taunt it, can't Toxic or Will-O-Whisp to have a chance. I was (just only) thinking of the possibility it couldn't use Calm Mind on Sablenite. Yes, Espeon has it, but it doesn't have either, the Defense that possess Sablenite or the useful Will-O-Whisp to cripple physical attackers.

This is really bad for other types, because not everyone has Mold Breaker Pokémon. Not everyone has Choice Specs Critical Hit Ice attack like Lapras or Walrein to pass through all Calm Mind boost, that people above has posted. Even if you have those two, it means you should have to run it just for only that case you encounter a Sablenite... You can't use Roar for the Magic Bounce, and Dragon Tail has it chance to fail, onlye Haze have the upler hand here (that not all types has it either).

I can miss various things anyway, but that was my thought about Sablenite, that it could stay, but without the Calm Mind. The other set, that serves as a utility with Knock Off and that stuff, it doesn't have the same impact that the Calm Mind. Sablenite users should play more wisely to keep it alive and sound through all the battle. I don't know, I want your answer about it, and we can talk of it for few hours in here.

~Peace

 

[brken11]

Personally, Dark is the thing I do main in on monotype. Sableye may be over centralizing but it adds much needed fighting immunity to dark. Now I started using Sableye's new mega just as it came out and I loved it. I kind of hate how every now uses the same copy paste Sableye now a days. Its either max HP and max Def or max SpD. Of course it is a little bugger to deal with on other types. But honestly, I think people are too caught up on their stealth rocks. I mean, it is so over used and the fact that Sableye scares them is nice. But it isn't that hard to get around that magic bounce. I mean has anyone ever heard of synchronize. Umbreon is kind of my anti wall set.
With Toxic Moonlight Foul-Play and Refresh. Its hard to KO and I can toxic poison Sableyes. Which prevent them from ever setting up properly before having to swith out. And as many before have mentioned. Toxic on mega-Amphy is too bad either. Plus mega-sableye is mostly seen in lower tiers, and those who struggle with it normally don't have the mentality to beat it. Every 6-0 sweep with that beast is due to people being unable to handle it and it sets up in their face (which is kind of the goal).

Edit: I also run Lum Berry on my Umbreon because there is nothing more entertaining than seeing a status headed for you ending up on your opponent instead.

 

[iLlama]

The problems I see with Mega-Sableye I believe are similar to that of Mega-Slowbro. Both utilize setting up and disregarding statuses and can sweep teams. Obviously Mega-Bro's issue was the combination of Shell Armor, Rest removing status, a high defensive stat plus Scald and the possible Iron Defense handling physical threats, but Mega-Sab's are relatively the same. Mega-Sab has Magic Bounce covering status (unless you have a Mold Breaker pokemon or bounce a status onto it), utilizes Will-o-Wisp to deal with physical threats, has Calm Mind set ups which unless you crit it or set up enough boosts on your own pokemon you can't exactly beat, it's dramatic increase in defensive stats giving it a greater amount of bulk allowing for setting up, and it's combo usage of Prankster/Magic Bounce make it unpredictable and nearly un-counterable.

With the basic info down, Mega-Sableye be only weak to Fairy gives it a huge advantage over most of the types and common sets in the meta. Of course each type has ways of beating it, but thinking practically, some types potential against other types can be hindered by having to carry sets specifically to counter Mega-Sableye. Not to mention if you lose that pokemon in a battle or even try to preserve it too much and lose the rest of your team, you no longer have a chance at countering Mega-Sab. In fact, with some types you also have to make predictions based around handling Mega-Sableye that can at points risk your potential for killing it let alone winning the match. If Mega-Sab begins to set up against you as well, you have to hard switch into whatever your counter for it is and you could possibly lose your counter if it is physical and the opponent uses Will-o-Wisp, or if it is special and the opponent's Mega-Sab has already set up enough to counter your efforts and potentially already 2HKO your counter. That's also not even considering the Snarl set that would shut down most special counters.

Yes, Mega-Sab can be countered by every type. But not all types have sets that can completely counter it let alone practical sets that not only handle Mega-Sab but the rest of monotype.

Yes, Mega-Sab has a relative significance on Dark and Ghost mono teams. But regular Sableye can perform just as well if not better in many situations and neither Dark nor Ghost are totally hindered by losing Mega-Sab. In fact it would probably add more diversity and better built teams not focused around one pokemon.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

The problem with Mega Sableye is not that it cannot be beaten, Im sure the posts in this thread alone that list the checks prove that. The problem arises because MSab is MSab, and it creates a sort of imbalance just at the team preview. Suddenly you have to be the one to predict to not let it set up, you have to predict to get your check in the same turn they bring MSab in, and what if the MSab user predicts? Prediction is a 2 way street, and for types having to predict to not let it set up is a horrible argument to why is shouldnt be banned, because lol, just predict and dont let malt set up its not broken!, but you can easily see were it is now.

Ive also been seeing a lot of checks that only work assuming its doing the attacking, but the way pokemon works is you have 2 pokemon out in the field and both pokemon either attack or switch, and no they arent switching their mega sableye into your msab check. The most likely scenario is they are making a move and you are doing the switching, that alone gives a ton of types a much harder time. Why? Because the people you are facing who are using the MSab are not idiots, eventually they will either start clicking their attacking move or switching to their check. A ton of these checks require their item, and on any other type than dark that would be ok, but your facing a type in which the preferred physical STAB is knock off, you cant really rely on choice specs to hit MSab hard with frost breath, you cant rely on choice band to nail it with wild charge, you cant rely on damage boosting items because you cant use items once they are knocked off.

tl;dr i can predict and not let malt set up and its still broken, why can you predict to make sableye unbroken?
tl;dr its dark and they use knock off a lot so item based checks (specs walrein, band luxray) arent working 100% of time

 

[Rhalekin]

Problems with Mega-Sab:
-Bulky as hell
-It can set up its sp.d without having to worry about its high defense
-While it sets up you cant: toxic it, burn it, paralyze it, confuse it, or make it switch out. (unless you have some pokemon with red card)
-No people, after mega sab sets up, mega gardevoir cant do much but get dark pulsed and lose a ton of health.
-The cores with mega sab are really fucking annoying, like REALLY ANNOYING, people cant even get passed them. (Ex: Mega-Sab and Hoopa)
-It complements the dark type too well, giving it a lot of support, and giving claim to give players lots of trouble with dealing with it, and some people just quit after Mega-Sab gets one calm mind, its really crazy.
-Players get paranoid to set up any sort of status or hazards because they can always switch to mega-sab to deal with it.
-Types that have trouble with mega-sab: Electric, Psychic, Fighting, Steel, Grass, Ghost, Rock, Poison, Fire, Dragon (depends on banded dragonite) and Ice. Mega-Sab gives these types a nightmare because its bulky attitude, slick attacks, status, and recovery want to make you punch your screen.


Peoples Problem with Mega Sab being banned:
"Wahh its gonna mess up ghost so bad" sab was perfectly usable before its mega.
"Wahh ghost loses hazard control" sab gets taunt lol
"Wahh ghost loses a perfectly good defense pokemon" no it doesnt, jellicent and aegi was out before mega sab.
"Wahh dark is gonna be bad without it" There are so many good cores that dont involve mega sab that people dont use thats its just blistering.
"Wahh Hoopa fucks up my ghost team ahhh" 90% of Hoopas are scarf and aegi tanks one, reg sab can always burn a scarf hoopa or taunt a sub one.
"Wahh im not used to using my teams without mega-sab, this tier sucks now" No Dark and ghost were good before the mega came out, people found ways to explore each types potential and use it to succeed.

It really depends on if you want to ban it or not, if it gets banned, we could settle down to see how the meta would react or change because of the ban. If not, i guess we just suck it up and deal with it.

 

[SubMindRaikou]

Also something to note: Sableye is better than Mega Sableye at checking fighting types since priority wow and recover is better than setting up a billion calm minds to nuke with dark pulse (unless you run dazzling gleam)

 

[vlmufa]

Problems with Mega-Sab:
-Bulky as hell
-It can set up its sp.d without having to worry about its high defense
-While it sets up you cant: toxic it, burn it, paralyze it, confuse it, or make it switch out. (unless you have some pokemon with red card)
-No people, after mega sab sets up, mega gardevoir cant do much but get dark pulsed and lose a ton of health.
-The cores with mega sab are really fucking annoying, like REALLY ANNOYING, people cant even get passed them. (Ex: Mega-Sab and Hoopa)
-It complements the dark type too well, giving it a lot of support, and giving claim to give players lots of trouble with dealing with it, and some people just quit after Mega-Sab gets one calm mind, its really crazy.
-Players get paranoid to set up any sort of status or hazards because they can always switch to mega-sab to deal with it.
-Types that have trouble with mega-sab: Electric, Psychic, Fighting, Steel, Grass, Ghost, Rock, Poison, Fire, Dragon (depends on banded dragonite) and Ice. Mega-Sab gives these types a nightmare because its bulky attitude, slick attacks, status, and recovery want to make you punch your screen.


Peoples Problem with Mega Sab being banned:
"Wahh its gonna mess up ghost so bad" sab was perfectly usable before its mega.
"Wahh ghost loses hazard control" sab gets taunt lol
"Wahh ghost loses a perfectly good defense pokemon" no it doesnt, jellicent and aegi was out before mega sab.
"Wahh dark is gonna be bad without it" There are so many good cores that dont involve mega sab that people dont use thats its just blistering.
"Wahh Hoopa fucks up my ghost team ahhh" 90% of Hoopas are scarf and aegi tanks one, reg sab can always burn a scarf hoopa or taunt a sub one.
"Wahh im not used to using my teams without mega-sab, this tier sucks now" No Dark and ghost were good before the mega came out, people found ways to explore each types potential and use it to succeed.

It really depends on if you want to ban it or not, if it gets banned, we could settle down to see how the meta would react or change because of the ban. If not, i guess we just suck it up and deal with it.

Not to offend you but it kinda feels like you are pulling out random arguments to be honest. Many of those types don't have problems with Sableye. Especially not fire. Also how many Calm Minds do you think Sableye can get up before a mega Gardevoir comes out to attack it? Like 3?
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't call that ''Gardevoir can't do much but get dark pulsed and lose a ton of health''. I've come to a point that I realised most people want it banned because its annoying and not too good for the metagame. Most people want their offensive mons to 2HKO everything in the entire metagame and when they don't, they call a pokemons bulk too good. Also I'll inform you the reason why people think Sableye is too good on dark is because of its defensive core aka mandibuzz + tyranitar support. Like honestly, if you look at it Sableye isn't that strong standalone and has to rely on priority will o wisp and calm mind to support its bulk that isn't even that overpowered with its tiny base 50 HP stat. Once it mega evolved your team can handle it with your common wallbreaker as long as your type can support one, meaning that Sablenite as an item isn't that much stronger than leftovers for example, what people don't like about it is that it gains Magic Bounce. I honestly can see the same problems with many other walls in the metagame, if your team doesn't have a pokemon to break them then it's completely your fault. Most teams don't even commonly run status to beat other common walls besides Sableye. I honestly think people just want to get rid of it just to have less problems in their minds while teambuilding.

"Wahh Hoopa fucks up my ghost team ahhh" 90% of Hoopas are scarf and aegi tanks one, reg sab can always burn a scarf hoopa or taunt a sub one.
"Wahh ghost loses hazard control" sab gets taunt lol

These sound extremely situational and predictable. Basically saying Aegislash is a check, like the opponent can't play around it. With that logic in my opinion theres A LOT of Mega Sableye checks as well and many mons can ''tank one'' from it. And then you say Mega Gardevoir can't do much but a shaky check to a hoopa is more reliable? And Taunt Sableye will be so predictable if sablenite gets the boot that it will become underwhelming and pretty much a disadvtange using it.

With every arguement I read like this I get convinced even more Sableye should stay in the metagame.

 

[Rhalekin]

Not to offend you but it kinda feels like you are pulling out random arguments to be honest. Many of those types don't have problems with Sableye. Especially not fire. Also how many Calm Minds do you think Sableye can get up before a mega Gardevoir comes out to attack it? Like 3?
252 SpA Pixilate Mega Gardevoir Hyper Voice vs. +3 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Sableye: 164-194 (53.9 - 63.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I don't call that ''Gardevoir can't do much but get dark pulsed and lose a ton of health''. I've come to a point that I realised most people want it banned because its annoying and not too good for the metagame. Most people want their offensive mons to 2HKO everything in the entire metagame and when they don't, they call a pokemons bulk too good. Also I'll inform you the reason why people think Sableye is too good on dark is because of its defensive core aka mandibuzz + tyranitar support. Like honestly, if you look at it Sableye isn't that strong standalone and has to rely on priority will o wisp and calm mind to support its bulk that isn't even that overpowered with its tiny base 50 HP stat. Once it mega evolved your team can handle it with your common wallbreaker as long as your type can support one, meaning that Sablenite as an item isn't that much stronger than leftovers for example, what people don't like about it is that it gains Magic Bounce. I honestly can see the same problems with many other walls in the metagame, if your team doesn't have a pokemon to break them then it's completely your fault. Most teams don't even commonly run status to beat other common walls besides Sableye. I honestly think people just want to get rid of it just to have less problems in their minds while teambuilding.

"Wahh Hoopa fucks up my ghost team ahhh" 90% of Hoopas are scarf and aegi tanks one, reg sab can always burn a scarf hoopa or taunt a sub one.
"Wahh ghost loses hazard control" sab gets taunt lol

These sound extremely situational and predictable. Basically saying Aegislash is a check, like the opponent can't play around it. With that logic in my opinion theres A LOT of Mega Sableye checks as well and many mons can ''tank one'' from it. And then you say Mega Gardevoir can't do much but a shaky check to a hoopa is more reliable? And Taunt Sableye will be so predictable if sablenite gets the boot that it will become underwhelming and pretty much a disadvtange using it.

With every arguement I read like this I get convinced even more Sableye should stay in the metagame.

1. Yeah i guess fire doesnt have trouble with the sun out, but the other types do.
2. You are really dumb saying regular sableye will be so predictable and it will wont be good. You can say that for 90% of pokemons movesets that are basically the staple and the same. Thats like me saying: "Because Mega Garchomp gets the boot, reg garchomp will be so predictable and become underwhelming and pretty much a disadvantage using it.
3. And Sab is pretty strong alone, your relying on Mega Gar to do all the work, whats gonna happen when it gets knocked out? Nothing, because its not mega gar vs mega sab, its a 6v6. Mega Sab can pull through on situations where a flying team can set up rocks but get bounced back to hurt them more, or trying to burn a pokemon but end up burning yourself, yes i know people can predict, but this happens a lot.
4. A hoopa trying to sweep a ghost team is extremely situational? lol???? Sab using taunt to stop hazards is extremely situational?? I dont know about you, but i like to stop threats and normal predictable situations from happening.

With every arguement people try to back up not banning sab, it always makes me question things how people arent creative enough to develop substituting solutions to a problem.