Ladder ORAS Monotype Discussion

[mullin]

So we have discussed in the past our rules that don't allow for complex bans yet we allow aegislash to still be used exclusivity by ghost. in the past it has been stated that we don't do complex bans to help one type over another. I am well aware of the immunity core that it created on steel but my question is why do we have an exception to the the rule with aegislash and not other pokemon in the meta-game?
Based on this is there anything that you think is deserving of a complex ban or should all complex bans be taken out of the game.
If this has been covered in the past and i am missing something can you please post the thread to me.

 

[DoW]

So we have discussed in the past our rules that don't allow for complex bans yet we allow aegislash to still be used exclusivity by ghost. in the past it has been stated that we don't do complex bans to help one type over another. I am well aware of the immunity core that it created on steel but my question is why do we have an exception to the the rule with aegislash and not other pokemon in the meta-game?
Based on this is there anything that you think is deserving of a complex ban or should all complex bans be taken out of the game.
If this has been covered in the past and i am missing something can you please post the thread to me.

I argued that we should look at Aegislash before dealing with Sablenite, and although the council voted that we should deal with sablenite first we will be dealing with Aegislash at some point in time. Our intention was to remove all complex bans, and the updated tiering philosophy was a step towards that.

 

[mullin]

I argued that we should look at Aegislash before dealing with Sablenite, and although the council voted that we should deal with sablenite first we will be dealing with Aegislash at some point in time. Our intention was to remove all complex bans, and the updated tiering philosophy was a step towards that.

The issue is if we ban sablenite before we deal with aegislash we might weaken ghost more than we need to. Just a thought on the topic

 

[DoW]

The issue is if we ban sablenite before we deal with aegislash we might weaken ghost more than we need to. Just a thought on the topic

I agree entirely, which is one of the reasons I wanted Aegislash dealt with first. That said, the point of a suspect is to deal with what's at hand rather than thinking about future bans, and you should vote according to whether you think Sablenite needs a ban in and of itself, rather than trying to work out how it will affect later bans.

 

[Dece1t]

Tbh I've always been shakey with the removal of type only bans, however I understood the reasoning and for the most part was fine with it. For newer players getting into the tier, it's a lot simpler to understand. For aegislash, ik this has probably been mentioned, but consider this. If it's removed from ghost, they lose a valuable physical attacker (which there is few of, the other notable one being Golurk). It'll probably be the new worst type without it. Sablenite it won't lose as much viability, but it'll still be a high amount of loss, and they'll be a lot more susceptible to hazard stack. If you were to compare that to, let's just say ground, who doesn't have great hazard control either, they resist sr, and l a lot of the types that typically use spikes (steel, bug, at times flying, fairy as well), ground handles those types easily. For ghost, that is not always the case.

Steel on the other hand, if we add aegislash back to that, they can scout a lot easier thanks to kings shield (which is what sets it apart from doublade, besides loss of mixed power), they'll be able to pick out the opponets sets a lot easier, and form a much stronger "immunity core." It would dominate the metagame way too much, and the win rates would be through the roof.

Tl;Dr ghost becomes new worst type without aegislash, however steel becomes probably the new best, if we completely unban/ban, we'd lose more than we gain, or gain way more than we lose, it would overcentralize. In the end I feel this complex ban is nessisary.

 

[Wanka]

Yeah that's just going to be something that the council might have a tough time deciding on. Aegislash plays a massive role on ghost and without it, it will be pretty difficult to make the type a dangerous mid tier type it is now.

Like stun said, At least leftovers sableye has good viability and ghost will be ok if sablenie gets banned. But if aegie goes than I'm not sure what ghost will resort too. The council will have to decide on whether they want to not care about viability and just let ghost suffer for the good of the tier, or try and keep ghost viable and let aegi be an exception.

It's different from bug as well, where even after genesect got the boot, bug has still found ways to still be effective in te current meta. I just don't see the same for ghost if aegi were to get the boot.

 

[pikachu<3]

for those reading into the argument that the "niche" sets that came about to beat mega-sableye are completely useless otherwise and that the metagame shouldn't be forced to run niche sets / pokemon for it, consider the following:

Torkoal's only use on Fire teams is Rapid Spin. It is a decent physical wall, and it gets some decent status options, but at the end of the day, if it did not have Rapid Spin it likely wouldn't even be ranked in monotype (currently ranked A). Without Torkoal, Fire teams would either rely on Charizard's defog to remove rocks (Zard takes 50% on switching in and is usually forced to run its mega-stone, forgoing other items) or resign itself to eating major damage from Stealth Rocks throughout the battle.

Do we consider banning Stealth Rock since it requires Fire to run a "niche" pokemon or "niche" move on ZardY to combat it? (not even gonna talk about what SR does against Ice teams)... Or do we keep SR and force Fire teams to adapt or lose?

Mega-Sableye is obviously not the same as the move Stealth Rock, but it similarly forces some types to adapt or lose. (As a disclaimer, I am not suggesting we suspect-test SR, in case you decide to take my post literally).

To be fair, when playing HO fire, it's not like you auto-lose as soon as rocks go up, as HO doesn't switch around too often anyway. It's true that everyone runs hazard control on fire, but that's not because they would auto-lose otherwise, it's because it's so good there's no reason not to run it. Even if you aren't running Torkoal, who is by no means necessary on fire, you're already running Zard-Y by default and it's not difficult to stick defog on Zard-Y.

On the other hand, if you don't adapt for M-sableye, it can set up in your face T1 and you lose unless you crit.

I don't know whether sableye should be banned, as I didn't see too much of it when laddering for reqs. I also spammed the ladder with HO fire for quick games, so I don't have the best idea of how certain types struggle with it. Does no one use dark or ghost anymore? I didn't see too much of either...

 

[Thimo]

Tbh I've always been shakey with the removal of type only bans, however I understood the reasoning and for the most part was fine with it. For newer players getting into the tier, it's a lot simpler to understand. For aegislash, ik this has probably been mentioned, but consider this. If it's removed from ghost, they lose a valuable physical attacker (which there is few of, the other notable one being Golurk). It'll probably be the new worst type without it. Sablenite it won't lose as much viability, but it'll still be a high amount of loss, and they'll be a lot more susceptible to hazard stack. If you were to compare that to, let's just say ground, who doesn't have great hazard control either, they resist sr, and l a lot of the types that typically use spikes (steel, bug, at times flying, fairy as well), ground handles those types easily. For ghost, that is not always the case.

Steel on the other hand, if we add aegislash back to that, they can scout a lot easier thanks to kings shield (which is what sets it apart from doublade, besides loss of mixed power), they'll be able to pick out the opponets sets a lot easier, and form a much stronger "immunity core." It would dominate the metagame way too much, and the win rates would be through the roof.

Tl;Dr ghost becomes new worst type without aegislash, however steel becomes probably the new best, if we completely unban/ban, we'd lose more than we gain, or gain way more than we lose, it would overcentralize. In the end I feel this complex ban is nessisary.

Ghost has enough access to Foul Play. Then it also has access to Doublade, Hoopa, Mega Banette and Trevenant

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Wait guys, are we seriously discussing a possible suspect of Aegi? 0_0

Tl;Dr ghost becomes new worst type without aegislash, however steel becomes probably the new best, if we completely unban/ban, we'd lose more than we gain, or gain way more than we lose, it would overcentralize. In the end I feel this complex ban is nessisary.

These suspects and bans are really going to hurt Ghost. From what I can tell about the fate of the suspect of Mega Sableye, it will probably not be banned. Aegislash is not overpowered in my opinion, as it gives Ghost bulk, power, physical and mixed attacking capabilities. Plus, it also gives it the ability to cripple physical attackers and force switches, something Ghost will need more than ever if Mega Sableye is banned.

 

[Dece1t]

Wait guys, are we seriously discussing a possible suspect of Aegi? 0_0

These suspects and bans are really going to hurt Ghost. From what I can tell about the fate of the suspect of Mega Sableye, it will probably not be banned. Aegislash is not overpowered in my opinion, as it gives Ghost bulk, power, physical and mixed attacking capabilities. Plus, it also gives it the ability to cripple physical attackers and force switches, something Ghost will need more than ever if Mega Sableye is banned.

We're not talking about the fact it is overpowered on ghost teams. Since we're trying to remove complex bans, discussion sprang up on allowing it back on steel, or removing it from the metagame entirely.

Ghost has enough access to Foul Play. Then it also has access to Doublade, Hoopa, Mega Banette and Trevenant

Mega banette isn't very viable. It's physical movepull is pretty shitty, and it can't use priority support moves until a turn after mega evolving (and no one wants to waste a slot on protect, since it already sorta does have 4 moveslot syndrome. The other mons you mentioned are good, bur none of them would be able to compensate for the loss of aegislash.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

We're not talking about the fact it is overpowered on ghost teams. Since we're trying to remove complex bans, discussion sprang up on allowing it back on steel, or removing it from the metagame entirely.

Mega banette isn't very viable once so ever. It's physical movepull is pretty shitty, and it can't use priority support moves until a turn after mega evolving (and no one wants to waste a slot on protect, since it already sorta does have 4 moveslot syndrome. The other mons you mentioned are good, bur none of them would be able to compensate for the loss of aegislash.

Okay, I misunderstood that. But removing it from the metagame completely makes me feel the impending doom of Monotype Ghost.

Ghost has enough access to Foul Play. Then it also has access to Doublade, Hoopa, Mega Banette and Trevenant

Trevenant is not really a physical attacker, I see Sub sets usually. I don't think that Hoopa makes a good physical attacker at all. It's more fitting on the special side anyway.

 

[Thimo]

We're not talking about the fact it is overpowered on ghost teams. Since we're trying to remove complex bans, discussion sprang up on allowing it back on steel, or removing it from the metagame entirely.

Mega banette isn't very viable. It's physical movepull is pretty shitty, and it can't use priority support moves until a turn after mega evolving (and no one wants to waste a slot on protect, since it already sorta does have 4 moveslot syndrome. The other mons you mentioned are good, bur none of them would be able to compensate for the loss of aegislash.

doublade would

Okay, I misunderstood that. But removing it from the metagame completely makes me feel the impending doom of Monotype Ghost.



Trevenant is not really a physical attacker, I see Sub sets usually. I don't think that Hoopa makes a good physical attacker at all. It's more fitting on the special side anyway.

it learns psyshock too

 

[SubMindRaikou]

as someone who likes using steel monotypes i would approve of unbanning aegislash for steel since then vs fighting becomes a million times easier since kings shield forcing them attack drops.

but really whats so hard to understand about steel being so much better than ghost and it makes aegislash op? Just keep this one type ban.

If someone is having trouble seeing why aegislash is type banned try explaining how ghost has no hazard removal except defog drifblim, then proceeds to introduce the amazing abundance of physical attackers including golurk, regular hoopa, and dusknoir. Once they have recovered from that introduce them to the other side of special attackers, showcasing regular hoopa again and the surprisingly semi decent gengar and chandelure along with the amazing froslass. After that show them steel. Doublade, Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Heatran, Jirachi, Lucario. Once they see that steels offensive is infinitely better than ghosts show them how ghost practically loses to most types unless you are good at the type. Ghost already loses a bunch to dark, steel, water, fire, flying, ground and even ice teams according to http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-tables.html, and your best matchups? Enjoy the 58% win ratio against fighting since it quickly drops off, not even psychic is weak to ghost since they run meloetta or hoopa u, or even both. Along with that point out how steel absolutely dominates its good matchups, ice rock and fairy. Then proceed to show them how unbanning aegislash for steel would practically even out steel vs fighting, steel v physic would be dominated by steel, fire increases a bit for steel, ghost gets rekt, etc etc. And ghost has aegislash right now, look how poorly it does in its matchups. If, after all of this the user is still confused about why theres a type ban only for aegislash they are either obviously a troll or dont really understand competitive mons, and in either case its not really the type only ban thats only to ban...

tl;dr ghost is doing poorly and steel already does well, just keep the type ban and if new users cant see how the type ban is needed then they need to learn more about competitive pokemon
http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-tables.html (is why i say ghost is doing poorly while steel does well, look at that nice 11 bad matchups for ghost and 11 good matchups for steel)

 

[Dece1t]

as someone who likes using steel monotypes i would approve of unbanning aegislash for steel since then vs fighting becomes a million times easier since kings shield forcing them attack drops.

but really whats so hard to understand about steel being so much better than ghost and it makes aegislash op? Just keep this one type ban.

If someone is having trouble seeing why aegislash is type banned try explaining how ghost has no hazard removal except defog drifblim, then proceeds to introduce the amazing abundance of physical attackers including golurk, regular hoopa, and dusknoir. Once they have recovered from that introduce them to the other side of special attackers, showcasing regular hoopa again and the surprisingly semi decent gengar and chandelure along with the amazing froslass. After that show them steel. Doublade, Mega Scizor, Excadrill, Heatran, Jirachi, Lucario. Once they see that steels offensive is infinitely better than ghosts show them how ghost practically loses to most types unless you are good at the type. Ghost already loses a bunch to dark, steel, water, fire, flying, ground and even ice teams according to http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-tables.html, and your best matchups? Enjoy the 58% win ratio against fighting since it quickly drops off, not even psychic is weak to ghost since they run meloetta or hoopa u, or even both. Along with that point out how steel absolutely dominates its good matchups, ice rock and fairy. Then proceed to show them how unbanning aegislash for steel would practically even out steel vs fighting, steel v physic would be dominated by steel, fire increases a bit for steel, ghost gets rekt, etc etc. And ghost has aegislash right now, look how poorly it does in its matchups. If, after all of this the user is still confused about why theres a type ban only for aegislash they are either obviously a troll or dont really understand competitive mons, and in either case its not really the type only ban thats only to ban...

tl;dr ghost is doing poorly and steel already does well, just keep the type ban and if new users cant see how the type ban is needed then they need to learn more about competitive pokemon
http://monotypeps.weebly.com/matchup-tables.html (is why i say ghost is doing poorly while steel does well, look at that nice 11 bad matchups for ghost and 11 good matchups for steel)

For Steel, this is the exception where doublade is somewhat compensation for the loss of aegislash (ThimoTheUltimateBOBO that would not go great for ghost due to loss of kings shield, and items such as WP, Sp def Toxic, life Orb, ect). Yes fighting is at a disadvantage against fighting, however, compared to lets say Ice vs Steel, its highly managable with smart plays (and usually mega scizor can boost typically easily depending on the spread your running). Ghost is actually not doing poorly, for the circumstances it has its actually doing well for a low/mid tier type, but its naturally just a more challenging type to use. (Js, fire matchup wouldn't be boosted by aegislash, it would have little to no use, besides possibly a quick revenge kill, which doublade can also use. As for Psychic, steel is also slightly more in favor as it is)

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

First of all, to clarify, Monotype Ghost has no really good Physical Attackers, and no fast ones. And to be frank, there aren't too many defensive Pokemon, either. Monotype Ghost will almost always lose to Monotype Dark, the bane of all Ghosts, who have the tools to beat Ghost in any situation. Ghost basically is a mass of special attackers who cannot create a very healthy and balanced team. Doublade, Hoopa-Confined and Trevenant; just because they have high attack does NOT make them very good Physical Attackers. Trevenant is seldom used offensively and from what I have battled, they use SubSeed and the like to attempt to stall. Doublade has a Swords Dance set, but it's Special Bulk usually results in it being 2HKO'd or OHKO'd by STAB or super-effective attacks. Hoopa-Confined lacks the great physical movepool, or the typing, or the speed or bulk to even come close to a physical attacker. It's much more suited to running a special set, regardless of its rather high attack. Sure, Psyshock can be used for coverage, but that doesn't make it a physical attacker. The only thing that comes close to a solid physical attacker is Golurk, who isn't much of a godsend either. Mega Banette has very high attack, but has a bad physical movepool and bulk, and is generally overlooked for Mega Sableye, who is the best choice for your mega slot.

The Fact of the matter is that Aegislash is one of the only things on Ghost that hits hard physically, is relevant to the metagame, and actually is a solid Pokemon. It has stellar defenses and bulk, and the ability to cripple Physical Attackers and force switches, something Ghost needs. Personally, I don't really have an opinion on whether it should be allowed back on Monotype Steel, but let's remember why it was banned in the first place.

 

[Kammi]

In my opinion, part of what makes Ghost so fun, enjoyable, and VIABLE to play in the metagame is the uniqueness of the Pokemon it has at its disposal.

Mega-Sableye and Aegislash have no true replacements. They both are extremely special, as far as pokemon go, and it's a misnomer to simply call Mega Sableye a "defensive wall" or Aegislash a "physical attacker". The wide variety of possibilities that these two pokemon give the type is what truly makes them so invaluable. There are only a few common sets for both of these pokemon (Utility/CM Mega Sableye sets, Mixed/Physical/Stall Aegislash sets), but they fill roles within the team that allow experimentation within the sets of their teammates. Ghost has access to interesting moves, abilities, and special conditions (not trappable, immune to normal and fighting, Curse, widespread access to status spreaders, lack of hazard control, strange playstyle) that are not found anywhere else, and that's how it contributes depth to the metagame. One of the main reasons why Ghost can be so, for the lack of a better word, gimmicky, and still viable, is its strong support core of Aegislash and Sableye.

On the other hand, Dark and Steel are already two very good types. In the hands of a top player, they can easily ladder to number one, and they both matchup well against other top types in the metagame at the moment. If Aegislash is unbanned, Steel usage will skyrocket. It'll be another case of the Zapdos Flying "nothing can break this shit" core. And if Mega Sableye stays, Dark will remain as good as it is (honestly, I don't see that as a super big problem). Of course, heightened usage in these two types will hurt lower types, especially ones that have bad matchups against immunity core / Mega Sableye. So it's really just a matter of choice at this point.

P.S. Doublade could never fill the role that Aegislash fills on Ghost. It's not like on Steel where Doublade just needs to fill the immunity core. Aegislash on Ghost is mostly mixed or there to take hits for the team and provide offensive support--Doublade can't do either role nearly as well. It's a poor substitute for a far superior Pokemon.

P.P.S. I personally find the shift towards no type-bans rather silly, especially considering arguments being made lately in the thread. People are basically being forced to choose which type they care about more. The new rule obviously becomes a huge problem when there is a Pokemon that is extremely relevant within the metagame and is a plaything on one of its types (not missed at all, just a bonus) and close to a necessity on its other type. I would think that the very nature of the Monotype philosophy would call for type-bans to be a central part of the tier.

 

[mullin]

Again to clarify how can we say no to other complex bans if we allow for one exception with Aegislash, the pokemon on ghost is not broken I 100% agree. But where do we draw the line? Does Aegislash mean that as a mono community we can adapt to having complex bans knowing that some pokemon are essential for the type to thrive. Or do we say no to trying to make one type be more viable by not allowing for complex bans? If Aegislash is allowed on ghost then dark might want to argue that they should have access to greninja. As a community complex bans are either allowed or not there really isn't an in-between.

 

[Whydon]

Again to clarify how can we say no to other complex bans if we allow for one exception with Aegislash, the pokemon on ghost is not broken I 100% agree. But where do we draw the line? Does Aegislash mean that as a mono community we can adapt to having complex bans knowing that some pokemon are essential for the type to thrive. Or do we say no to trying to make one type be more viable by not allowing for complex bans? If Aegislash is allowed on ghost then dark might want to argue that they should have access to greninja. As a community complex bans are either allowed or not there really isn't an in-between.

Thing is that with monotype, the way a Pokemon functions can be very different depending on the type of team it uses. In OU and other tiers, nobody has to worry about a Pokemon doing better on one type because the Pokemon can be used anywhere at all times. Aegislash in Steel and Aegislash in Ghost, while similar, played very different roles, with Aegislash on Steel acting as an important Fighting immunity and Aegislash on Ghost simply acting as an all-around good Pokemon with good attacks and defensive capabilities. In Monotype, it is hard to prevent complex bans from happening. Sometimes, type only bans are simply what is needed. If Aegislash has been banned globally, Ghost would have been nerfed for no reason, as Aegislash played a balanced role on Ghost - not a broken role like how Aegislash played on Steel.

 

[TheAce22]

Ok so personally I think type bans should be removed from monotype. First of all the councoil always says it will keep us more in line with smog one philosophy, but I honestly don't know what smog ons philosophy is and that changes my outlook also so could someone explain what that is plz :P.

Then for an example let's say when we brought back Zapdos into the metagame the SkarmDos core was once again broken, but if we banned Zapdos that's going to make electric even worse than ghost with no aegis lash. So we type ban again, make one more exception? This exception stuff can keep going on and on because it has to happen at certain points like aegislash is now. Also I'm using SkarmDos as an example, it's not op but there's a chance something else may enter the metagame and need a type ban. Continuing... So we ban another Pokemon because then Electric would be to weak and ban something that's not broken when the Pokemon that should be banned is Zapdos but electric will have no viable uses what so ever basically. That just doesn't make sense in my opinion.

 

[Freeroamer]

The main reason for the above is that we want to keep as low an entry barrier as possible for our metagame, so new players or players who've played other tiers can jump in with the least obstruction possible. For example that list Arash made would be extremely confusing to anyone new, and would take a while to figure out, whereas saying something is banned completely within Monotype is a lot simpler. The reason Aegislash is different is because it's almost unique in that one of it's types is the worst in the metagame, and the other is one of the best(assuming Steel has it). Whatever decision was made with Aegislash, if we did a pure ban or no ban, there would be a negative implication on the tier in general by making one type overpowering or by killing one type completely so it was decided that there would be ONE exception. You could liken it to Sableye in a way I guess but I've seen enough people use Ghost without Mega(Argus being a good example) to convince me that it wouldn't be killer for the type if it does even get banned.

 

[Josh]

The issue is, if the new players find the ban list too complicated, they might not bother picking up the tier. A tier cant succeed without new players. I can't be the only one that sees multiple people daily asking if Aegislash is banned. That's the ONLY complex ban we have and it gets a lot fo questions already.

It's hard deciding where it is right doing complicated bans to create a better metagame for experienced players, and stop banning for simplicity. Having a community poll is a terrible idea, the community will have a lot of dumb voters. A council vote is an ok idea, but I'm fairly sure they already did something of the sort and that's why nearly all of the complicated bans were removed.

Me personally? Ban Aegislash if it's broken, regardless of if it kills ghost. You don't see people wanting kyuw unbanned to help ice anymore, do you? As for if Aegislash is broken, I think it is personally as I have said before but that's not the point of this post.

As a little ps: this was touched on, but Regular Sableye is still viable. Even if mega sableye is banned, the regular is a less broken replacement. Sure it's not as good, but it can still perform some of the roles in a more balanced way. It does get Taunt (with priority) if you want to maintain a form of hazard control.

 

[Azelea]

I agree that Charidzard-X is a great example why type only bans could be good for this meta, It really was not broken on fire, the general thought was that Charidzard-Y was better. Unbanning it for fire could add diversity. Ok thats one good example, but what are the other ones? Mega-Mawile? Genesect? Altaria for dragon? In my opinion there are no other good examples that could work. This is a huge if but if mega-sableye gets the boot, maybe just a type ban for dark, huge maybe, could work. But if you are thinking about it then you are rushing a little bit. Let’s see what happens with the suspect, lets let the meta settle a bit. And then discuss about these possibilities.

Another thing that’s interesting about the meta at the moment is how balanced it is at the moment. I and many other players agree that the meta is maybe as balanced as it ever has been, but it’s really not perfect in a way you would think. in a discussion with my good friend Sabella he pointed me a great fact, It lacks diversity. He also said a thing i agree with, The Skymin Era(The time when type bans were a huge thing and Skymin, Kyu-W, Mawilite(on fairy) were unbanned) was maybe the most unbalanced meta we have had, but it had the most diversity and was also maybe the most fun. So it really depends what do you want in a metagame. Balance? Diversity?. To be honest, i have no clue which way im leaning on to. Just so you know in no way this post is saying that skymin, kyu-w, mawilite should be unbanned, (if you didnt play back, they were aids) its just to play with the idea of the type only bans.

 

[dusk raimon]

One of the highest peaking ghost users ever peaked without mega sableye (argus) so it doesn't completely cripple ghost obviously if mega sableye is banned, it does do a job that nothing on ghost can do but it doesn't mean it's completely necessary to ghost's success as a type

 

[Arash]

someone please correct me if i'm wrong, but i was under the impression that the removal of (almost) all type-only bans had the main purpose of legitimizing monotype as a smogon metagame, to the same level as OU/UU/Ubers are now. I highly doubt Smogon would be where it is today if they had a bunch of complex bans to the effect of "Blaziken is banned with Speed Boost but allowed with Blaze" or "Swagger is allowed but not on the same moveset as Foul Play or on a Prankster mon" or "Sand Veil is allowed but not on the same team as Ttar/Hippo".

Now, I am aware that in Gen 5 there was a Drizzle+Swift Swim complex ban due to perma-rain. While it was accepted back when it was first enacted, the general concensus now is that in hindsight, had Drizzle been outright banned instead of the complex ban, some of the other bans that followed (Tornadus-T, Manaphy, Keldeo suspected) would have likely would not have been needed and Drought teams may have been more viable when competing only against Sandstorm / manual Rain. This is an example of the kind of effects a complex ban can bring if used irresponsibly.

While stuff like unbanning CharX for fire only might technically make the monotype metagame more balanced, it doesn't bring that much extra balance into the equation to justify the extra rule that needs to be remembered and explained when teambuilding. One of the main draws of monotype as I see it is that it is one of the only OMs that can be accomplished with in-game rules (no illegal combinations of moves/pokemon/abilities, no wonky weather/field effect mechanics, no changes to any BSTs) while still being a nice change of pace from OU/UU/etc...

As a side note, who remembers when Kyu-W and Skymin were on type-only bans? IIRC the chat was filled 90% of the time with this:

- Is [insert pokemon] banned?
- it is banned on X team but not on Y team
- Is [different pokemon] banned?
- that one is banned on W team but is allowed on Z team
- why is that one allowed on Z team but not W?
- it is OK on W, but causes Z team to be too good for the meta
- so [different pokemon] is OK on W only but talonflame is banned?
- yes
- that makes no sense, why is.........

... that's something I'd like to avoid if possible

 

[The Immortal]

Pressuring the council isn't the solution, and neither is debating about personal preferences.

If you feel a certain Pokemon should be type banned, provide reasoning as to why that complex ban is the better solution for said Pokemon, rather than just a simple ban. If you're convincing enough then perhaps the council will consider your complex ban proposal.