Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[DoABarrelRoll]

don't have anything to say about mega mane/medicham, but mega diancie should definitely drop. it doesn't feel to me like it's on the same level as garchomp, or hoopa-U, or even weavile or megazam. i'm gonna list a few reasons why:

1) it has trouble mega evolving. we already knew that, and it really bites diancie in the ass, unlike other A+ megas such as lopunny or zam who have the speed (or fake out) to mega evolve safely. thus diancie needs severe prediction to use, especially without protect (sets with SR, RP or even the rare CM/sharpen).

2) 160/160 offenses with solid moves in diamond storm and moonblast seem amazing on paper, but:

252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 190-225 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
100 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 191-226 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it's weaker than mixape for example. a pokemon which you guys like to shit on for its "poor" dual 104/104 offenses. btw, this means diancie doesn't have enough pwr to break through clef, reuniclus or AV tangrowth, common pokemon on balance.

hell, even goddamn abomasnow (92/92 offenses!!!) hits harder, standard RU set btw:

252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
160+ Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-242 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you guys should not just look at how high pokemon x's stats are, as mathematically, BP matters much more, as we've seen from the likes of mega lucario waaay back in early XY, and staraptor and crawdaunt back in XY UU, and stuff like that.

3) the current meta shifts don't really help diancie. it can't stop manaphy, is too frail to reliably stop +1 zardx, it speed ties with too many pokemon it's supposed to rkill (lati@s, gengar) and the rise of mons such as serperior and mega mane/zam bite it in the ass. jirachi and klefki are also becoming more popular, mons which diancie hates with a passion.

4) i don't really see it being more threatening than mega garde. both threaten balance and stall, but mega diancie has higher mixed potential and thus highly threatens balance, while garde performs better against stall due to taunt + the ability to beat shit like chansey 1-on-1 and ohko mega sableye/quag and 2hko clef, as well as having ways of getting around cresselia, amoonguss or even skarm without an attacking move.

except, the three mons i mentioned in 2) kick in.

5) really, really hates priority moves, even +2 bb from talon will OHKO with some prior dmg, and azu and scizor roflstomp it.

therefore, mega diancie should drop to a. it's a great pokemon and all, very good against balanced and stall teams, it's just not on the same level as chomp, weavile, etc.

but of course i know what's gonna happen from now on, reading my post people will forget about this gorgeous queen and start shittalking nape and aboma, or how reuniclus is setup bait for tyranitar, lol.

 

[Alfalfa]

don't have anything to say about mega mane/medicham, but mega diancie should definitely drop. it doesn't feel to me like it's on the same level as garchomp, or hoopa-U, or even weavile or megazam. i'm gonna list a few reasons why:

1) it has trouble mega evolving. we already knew that, and it really bites diancie in the ass, unlike other A+ megas such as lopunny or zam who have the speed (or fake out) to mega evolve safely. thus diancie needs severe prediction to use, especially without protect (sets with SR, RP or even the rare CM/sharpen).

2) 160/160 offenses with solid moves in diamond storm and moonblast seem amazing on paper, but:

252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 190-225 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
100 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 191-226 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it's weaker than mixape for example. a pokemon which you guys like to shit on for its "poor" dual 104/104 offenses. btw, this means diancie doesn't have enough pwr to break through clef, reuniclus or AV tangrowth, common pokemon on balance.

hell, even goddamn abomasnow (92/92 offenses!!!) hits harder, standard RU set btw:

252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
160+ Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-242 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you guys should not just look at how high pokemon x's stats are, as mathematically, BP matters much more, as we've seen from the likes of mega lucario waaay back in early XY, and staraptor and crawdaunt back in XY UU, and stuff like that.

3) the current meta shifts don't really help diancie. it can't stop manaphy, is too frail to reliably stop +1 zardx, it speed ties with too many pokemon it's supposed to rkill (lati@s, gengar) and the rise of mons such as serperior and mega mane/zam bite it in the ass. jirachi and klefki are also becoming more popular, mons which diancie hates with a passion.

4) i don't really see it being more threatening than mega garde. both threaten balance and stall, but mega diancie has higher mixed potential and thus highly threatens balance, while garde performs better against stall due to taunt + the ability to beat shit like chansey 1-on-1 and ohko mega sableye/quag and 2hko clef, as well as having ways of getting around cresselia, amoonguss or even skarm without an attacking move.

except, the three mons i mentioned in 2) kick in.

5) really, really hates priority moves, even +2 bb from talon will OHKO with some prior dmg, and azu and scizor roflstomp it.

therefore, mega diancie should drop to a. it's a great pokemon and all, very good against balanced and stall teams, it's just not on the same level as chomp, weavile, etc.

but of course i know what's gonna happen from now on, reading my post people will forget about this gorgeous queen and start shittalking nape and aboma, or how reuniclus is setup bait for tyranitar, lol.

Just where the hell do you get these arguments from...

To be fair, Wood Hammer and Blizzard hit hard coming from Abomasnow because of STAB boosts and Life Orb. To put it in perspective, Modest Abomasnow's Blizzard has the exact same power as Timid Gengar's Sludge Wave (I'll even throw in calcs!).

252+ SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 203-239 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Gengar Sludge Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Raikou: 203-239 (63.2 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Nobody uses Abomasnow because its bad speed really hurts it when combined with its several exploitable weaknesses.

Considering that MixApe hits hard enough to 2HKO most offensive threats, and Mega Diancie has roughly similar power, I fail to see how this is at all bad for Mega Diancie. Keep in mind that Infernape has stronger power STABs and access to a Life Orb, so of course it is going to hit hard, against offensive threats at least. MixApe, unlike Mega Diancie, is meant to be a wallbreaker, albeit a very mediocre one.

Also, Mega Gardevoir has been nominated to rise of late, (I think within the past 2 weeks), and Mega Diancie is an ass Zard X check. I would expand on these points more, but I have other things to do at the moment, so please don't drag me into these stupid back and forth arguments again.

 

[blank]

don't have anything to say about mega mane/medicham, but mega diancie should definitely drop. it doesn't feel to me like it's on the same level as garchomp, or hoopa-U, or even weavile or megazam. i'm gonna list a few reasons why:

1) it has trouble mega evolving. we already knew that, and it really bites diancie in the ass, unlike other A+ megas such as lopunny or zam who have the speed (or fake out) to mega evolve safely. thus diancie needs severe prediction to use, especially without protect (sets with SR, RP or even the rare CM/sharpen).

2) 160/160 offenses with solid moves in diamond storm and moonblast seem amazing on paper, but:

252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 190-225 (55.7 - 65.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
100 Atk Life Orb Infernape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Manaphy: 191-226 (56 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 SpA Life Orb Infernape Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

it's weaker than mixape for example. a pokemon which you guys like to shit on for its "poor" dual 104/104 offenses. btw, this means diancie doesn't have enough pwr to break through clef, reuniclus or AV tangrowth, common pokemon on balance.

hell, even goddamn abomasnow (92/92 offenses!!!) hits harder, standard RU set btw:

252 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 192-226 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
160+ Atk Life Orb Abomasnow Wood Hammer vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 204-242 (59.8 - 70.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mega Diancie Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 181-214 (53 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Abomasnow Blizzard vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

you guys should not just look at how high pokemon x's stats are, as mathematically, BP matters much more, as we've seen from the likes of mega lucario waaay back in early XY, and staraptor and crawdaunt back in XY UU, and stuff like that.

3) the current meta shifts don't really help diancie. it can't stop manaphy, is too frail to reliably stop +1 zardx, it speed ties with too many pokemon it's supposed to rkill (lati@s, gengar) and the rise of mons such as serperior and mega mane/zam bite it in the ass. jirachi and klefki are also becoming more popular, mons which diancie hates with a passion.

4) i don't really see it being more threatening than mega garde. both threaten balance and stall, but mega diancie has higher mixed potential and thus highly threatens balance, while garde performs better against stall due to taunt + the ability to beat shit like chansey 1-on-1 and ohko mega sableye/quag and 2hko clef, as well as having ways of getting around cresselia, amoonguss or even skarm without an attacking move.

except, the three mons i mentioned in 2) kick in.

5) really, really hates priority moves, even +2 bb from talon will OHKO with some prior dmg, and azu and scizor roflstomp it.

therefore, mega diancie should drop to a. it's a great pokemon and all, very good against balanced and stall teams, it's just not on the same level as chomp, weavile, etc.

but of course i know what's gonna happen from now on, reading my post people will forget about this gorgeous queen and start shittalking nape and aboma, or how reuniclus is setup bait for tyranitar, lol.

you're comparing things that literally make no sense to compare. what do mega abomasnow and diancie have in common exactly? mixape and diancie? i get comparing gardevoir and diancie as they're both fairy megas that run special attacks, but even then: mega gardevoir is a wallbreaker, and last i checked, diancie isn't lol.

if you're trying to say "lel look these bad pokemon are stronger than diancie", you should also factor in other things like mixape having to lose health to life orb to achieve those benchmarks & the fact that it is meant to wallbreak (but it's mediocre as Alfalfa said). with abomasnow you have extremely low speed and terrible defensive typing (read: weak to a million things).

you can say that we're using your post to "start shittalking nape and aboma", but we're really just pointing out a major flaw in your argument: you're comparing things that have no business being compared.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

from the m-diancie analysis:

"Taking advantage of Mega Diancie's great wallbreaking capabilities early-game is advised, so that Diancie's teammates can have an easier time breaking down the opposing team. Mega Diancie is best fit on offensively oriented teams, where its teammates are capable of wearing down its checks or cleaning after it has blown holes in the opposing team."

well... it kinda is a wallbreaker, no? isn't this what we recommend after all? of course mega diancie can fit in a lot of roles, but it's main job imo is to wallbreak, and it does so pretty efficiently - it's just that it doesn't hit that hard with its standard set. it needs entry hazards or a specific EV spread to actually 2HKO most walls - especially stuff like chansey or amoonguss.

oh, and i didn't really want to compare mixape or abomasnow to m-diancie, i just wanted to show how diancie's damage output really suffers, and how overglorified are its 160/160 mixed offenses.

 

[Nix_Hex]

I recommend you stop. That's all I'm going to say.

 

[Alfalfa]

from the m-diancie analysis:

"Taking advantage of Mega Diancie's great wallbreaking capabilities early-game is advised, so that Diancie's teammates can have an easier time breaking down the opposing team. Mega Diancie is best fit on offensively oriented teams, where its teammates are capable of wearing down its checks or cleaning after it has blown holes in the opposing team."

well... it kinda is a wallbreaker, no? isn't this what we recommend after all? of course mega diancie can fit in a lot of roles, but it's main job imo is to wallbreak, and it does so pretty efficiently - it's just that it doesn't hit that hard with its standard set. it needs entry hazards or a specific EV spread to actually 2HKO most walls - especially stuff like chansey or amoonguss.

oh, and i didn't really want to compare mixape or abomasnow to m-diancie, i just wanted to show how diancie's damage output really suffers, and how overglorified are its 160/160 mixed offenses.

People have also mentioned Keldeo and Mega Metagross as wallbreakers when they really are not reliable wallbreakers at all. Both these mons, like Mega Diancie, are simply supposed to be Pokemon meant to do well against offense, which they all do well.

 

[Immortal]

I agree that mega metagross should drop to A. I know its stats are incredible but just seems like it has lost its luster and usually underachieves. To me it seems like there are tons of things that not only match up well against it but are good regardless (hippo, zards exca slowbro and garchomp for some sets among others) meaning it isn't just that teams are over-prepared for it but that stuff it struggles against are just good in their own right. Earthquake is everywhere and I feel like it has to mevo early in the game otherwise it misses chances to come in on stuff it could beat if it didn't have to wait until the second turn for the increase in its speed stat. It doesn't have to waste a move slot on protect like mega diance does because of it but this still makes it hard to get in sometimes. I remember it being really threatening at the beginning of ORAS but I rarely feel threatened by it anymore and I feel the metagame has moved away from it and a drop to A (still a damn good tier we seem afraid to use because people seem to think it sucks) is warranted.

I have also been really underwhelmed by mega zam lately because while it is fast it is of course disgustingly frail with poor defensive typing. It often seems to come up short of koing stuff which results in it getting koed in return. The other thing is its ability is only useful like 30 percent of the time when it traces something beneficial. Anyway I wanted to know what people think about it and if it should be considered for a drop to A as well.

 

[Giagantic]

from the m-diancie analysis:

"Taking advantage of Mega Diancie's great wallbreaking capabilities early-game is advised, so that Diancie's teammates can have an easier time breaking down the opposing team. Mega Diancie is best fit on offensively oriented teams, where its teammates are capable of wearing down its checks or cleaning after it has blown holes in the opposing team."

well... it kinda is a wallbreaker, no? isn't this what we recommend after all? of course mega diancie can fit in a lot of roles, but it's main job imo is to wallbreak, and it does so pretty efficiently - it's just that it doesn't hit that hard with its standard set. it needs entry hazards or a specific EV spread to actually 2HKO most walls - especially stuff like chansey or amoonguss.

oh, and i didn't really want to compare mixape or abomasnow to m-diancie, i just wanted to show how diancie's damage output really suffers, and how overglorified are its 160/160 mixed offenses.

It isn't over glorified at all, as others have mentioned comparing the damage of a Pokemon that can use an item like Life orb + a higher BP (but also inversely has negative downside with a stat drop) is silly. Mega-Diancie is blessed with an amazing Offensive typing that is only resisted by Steel types, it has the aid of Diamond Storm and Moonblast to deal fairly consistent high damage across a wide variety of Pokemon in the OU meta. In my honest opinion the emphasis on its wallbreaking capabilities is but one aspect of what makes Diancie A+ but not the whole reason. Its the combination of the aforementioned great offensive typing, Magic Bounce (which also means that status is a non-issue outside of move induced status), its 110 base speed (yes it uses protect to safe-guard itself but the combination of protect + Magic bounce is also a decent scouting move that is relatively safe if not misused ie, allowing a Pokemon to set up). It's 160/160 offenses enables Diancie to pull off its role as an amazing mixed attacker that doesn't take recoil from Life Orb and is much harder to status.

________________________________________________________________________________________

Rather then Mega-Diancie being moved down I feel that Mega-Altaria is a better choice to move to A rank due to the various issues that afflict it. These issues range from its terrible pre-mega stats/typing/ability - It's lackluster speed of 80 limits Altaria to Dragon Dance sets (I know there are other sets such as mixed/purely special but the efficacy of those sets are dubious in my experience) in order to perform at its best - Its lack of speed also means that it is prone to being worn down and loses its immunity to ground moves upon gaining fairy typing. Mega Altaria while certainly by no means weak (it is still bloody A rank) but it has huge 4 moves slot syndrome in that it wants to run enough coverage to beat those that resist its fairy typing but often has to run Roost+Dragon Dance+Heal bell or even Iron Defense which limits it to Return or Fire blast/ Earthquake.

This is all based on whether we actually need to move anything up or down. As to whether the flaws I see in Mega-Altaria truly demand it to be A rather then A+ that is honestly hard to say.

 

[ArcanePhoenix]

Not to forget that the OU steels either get hit neutraly by DS (skarm doesnt give a fuck i guess) or get destroyed by Earthpower, which is basically the last part missing in its coverage. RP sets are good at cleaning but tend to have issues with setting up. When it comes down to the main question: Is this thing worth the slot?, it is imo the same way as the other A+ are.

 

[teamjohto]

Mega Metagross => A Disagree.

While there are arguments saying that there are safe switch ins and mons that wall Megagross, lets not forget the reason why Megagross was put on suspect to begin with, that he does have an answer for his counters. Grass Knot can be carried to deal with fat walls like Slowbro and Hippowdon, Ice Punch for Garchomp and Lando-T, hell even thunder punch can be run for Skarmory and Suicune. Megagross has become so defining to the metagame that top mons in OU have changed their movesets just to deal with this beast, such as Thunder Wave Clefable and Will-o-Wisp Gardevoir as lures.

As for the job he does, he does marvelously well, and that's the early-game wallbreaker that has the coverage movepool to break cores that would otherwise wall it, and it requires the opponent to scout for moves through all that offensive pressure to determine what coverage he's packing. For his role in the metagame and the ability to do the job so well, he's just fine in A+.

 

[SJCrew]

Manectric: This has been a long time coming but Mane is pretty dominant right now. It's benefited hugely from the decline in Hippo and the increase in Chomp and Lando. Unlike Hippo, Chomp and Lando get faced with a ton of HP Ice / Volt Switch 5050s that are almost always more favorable for the Manectric user. It also offers a ton of compression for offensive teams, as it can check or revenge a lot of threats in one slot. It's not quite on par with Lopunny in terms of destroying offense but it's not too far behind either tbh in terms of speed tier and coverage. Most checks that aren't Grounds get worn down fairly easily when Mane can just click Volt Switch mid to early game, and pick up small amounts of chip damage here and there until the check breaks or it gets Pursuit trapped, such as Lati@s. A move to A+ would properly reflect just how good Mane is right now.

Volt Switching to wear down its checks only works when it has any hope of outlasting them, which is hard when you're grounded and only have two resists. In reality, it's almost always on a timer because of its vulnerability to hazards, lack of recovery, and the fact that much of what it's supposed to check can exploit those flaws by forcing it in and switching out into a strong check of their own. No matter how many times you Volt Switch on Clefable or Altaria, you can't beat them. Hippowdon, which is still getting Top 10 tournament usage, neutralizes it from team preview. Zard X gets a free DD against it, Tyranitar traps it unless it switches directly into Volt Switch for some reason, and Scizor and Talonflame can usually outlast it with almost any set. This is dominant?

 

[Celticpride]

Ok so first off sorry I used the word "dominant" and people are getting hung up all over that.

Volt Switching to wear down its checks only works when it has any hope of outlasting them, which is hard when you're grounded and only have two resists. In reality, it's almost always on a timer because of its vulnerability to hazards, lack of recovery, and the fact that much of what it's supposed to check can exploit those flaws by forcing it in and switching out into a strong check of their own. No matter how many times you Volt Switch on Clefable or Altaria, you can't beat them.

I don't really agree that you can't beat Clef or Alt no matter how much you VS on them, because you are assuming that they will find windows for recovery when a properly built Manectric team will anticipate those situations when building and have reasonable counterplay. Maybe it doesn't wear down every check into KO range with one VS but with the momentum it creates it can often lead to sequences where its checks don't have room for recovery. Not that the momentum Manectric creates is unstoppable by any means, but it's not really that hard to have an answer for Clef ready to force it out off of a Volt Switch.

Hippowdon, which is still getting Top 10 tournament usage, neutralizes it from team preview.

Hippo may neutralize Mane, but it is often forced, predictable counterplay. Hippo isn't exactly hard to switch into, and opens up the door for a threatening breaker, such as Serp, Keldeo, and Mane. Manectric can start momentum chains outside of Volt Switch, as can Raikou and Thundurus. People act like Hippo makes those things are essentially useless vs Hippo but it really just forces riskier counterplay. And when Mane often consistently produces safer counterplay reliably in better matchups through Volt Switch, sometimes you just have to bite the bullet in a worse matchup, because things have bad matchups. But Manes bad matchup against Hippo is almost always exaggerated compared to what occurs in practice, and Hippo has seen a notable decline in effectiveness from where it stood a few months ago (dropped from A+ to A at some point, and it used to be one of the more entrenched things in A+ iirc). Hippo gives free turns to quite a few things depending on what its fourth move is, and for all it blocks Mane it gives away quite a bit as well by being so passive.

Zard X gets a free DD against it, Tyranitar traps it unless it switches directly into Volt Switch for some reason,

This seems to completely ignore that Mane can just click Volt Switch when both those supposed answers switch in. "Tyranitar traps it unless it switches directly into Volt Switch for some reason" I'm not entirely sure what the logic is behind this when very little often deters Mane for clicking Volt Switch early game. Maybe TTar switches in on a stray HP Ice or something? Against a TTar/Ground matchup Manectric may just have to be played more conservatively until the Ground gets worn down a little. And yeah, some threats can get into situations where they just get beat, and the ZardX matchup isn't great, but that's not a deterrent from A+ by itself. I wouldn't call ZardX a "free DD" tho.

and Scizor and Talonflame can usually outlast it with almost any set.

Defensive Mega Scizor isn't threatening Mane much at all at +1, and that's the only Scizor set that stands a chance at outlasting Mane. And offensive Mega Scizor is arguably the more viable set at this point. Talonflame outlasting Mane does happen, but Mane also happens to be one of the best offensive answers to it in the tier. Seems like more of a moot point to me as any offensive team would love to have something that can outspeed, eat a Brave Bird, and dgaf about WoW as a bonus.

So maybe I did oversell Manectric a little bit. However, I still believe that it has A+ potential for a) the utility check it provides to teams while at the same time bringing considerable speed and decent coverage, especially for an Electric, and b) its ability to generate momentum (which can also happen without Volt Switch!). And yes, some of the above strongly relies on proper teammates for Mane to be effective. But similar to Mega Beedrill momentum generating Pokemon get really dangerous with proper teammates, and that looking at these threats in isolation undersells how effective they can be in practice. So yeah, that's pretty much all I have to say on the matter.

 

[MikeDawg]

I agree with CelticPride's post, but i don't agree with Manec to A+ for the sole reason that it can't get some big kos with its coverage moves. I'm talking about tankchomp, excadrill, and sometimes defensive lando-t. Not being able to 1hko these things without prior damage (hardly any for lando, a significant amount for the other two) makes me very sad when I'm trying to make the most of manectric in the early/mid game. It needs a decent amount of support for what it offers.

 

[CharizardIsMeh]

to C

This thing is so bulky. No really. 120 / 120 / 130 bulk is simply insane, standing near the mythic Arceus and the Big Blob Chansey.
Now I see people who will say that Psychic is weak to Bug, Dark (Heyyy Knock Off) and Ghost 3 common attacking types. Yeah, but Chansey is weak to Close Combat and Secret Sword and she still an awesome special wall. Cresselia also resists the very very common Ground and Fighting type and that's really useful.
However she's very passive, weak to status and Moonlight has only 8 PP and heals less under sand, hail or rain, a bad defensive typing and that holds her back from being op op.
But I'll just show some calcs :
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia: 93-111 (20.9 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Cresselia: 144-169 (32.5 - 38.1%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia: 278-330 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 211-249 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Cresselia: 282-333 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

She won't survive very strong attacks, especially physical, from the likes of +1 ZardX, CB Scizor U-Turn, or Bisharp's K-Off. But you can realize that it's pretty hard to OHKO her.

 

[Of Moose & Men]

to C

This thing is so bulky. No really. 120 / 120 / 130 bulk is simply insane, standing near the mythic Arceus and the Big Blob Chansey.
Now I see people who will say that Psychic is weak to Bug, Dark (Heyyy Knock Off) and Ghost 3 common attacking types. Yeah, but Chansey is weak to Close Combat and Secret Sword and she still an awesome special wall. Cresselia also resists the very very common Ground and Fighting type and that's really useful.
However she's very passive, weak to status and Moonlight has only 8 PP and heals less under sand, hail or rain, a bad defensive typing and that holds her back from being op op.
But I'll just show some calcs :
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia: 93-111 (20.9 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Cresselia: 144-169 (32.5 - 38.1%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia: 278-330 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 211-249 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Cresselia: 282-333 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

She won't survive very strong attacks, especially physical, from the likes of +1 ZardX, CB Scizor U-Turn, or Bisharp's K-Off. But you can realize that it's pretty hard to OHKO her.

I actually REALLY love Cressila. I've built a moderately decent team using her that isn't Stall/Semi Stall. But I honestly don't feel it should move up to C. It's stupidly fat, that is undeniable, however, that's about where every single bad ass quality for Cress ends. Her Recovery is decent, but it's sadly weather dependent, with Sand as popular as it is, that is a HUGE problem. Not to mention she is easily one of the most passive Pokemon in the game. She has the ability to switch into a good chunk of Pokemon, and she can be a very good blanket check to a good chunk of the meta, her problem just comes in being so damn passive. When the only way of punishing a switch is using Toxic, you have a bit of a problem. STAB psychic is still piss weak, and despite having somewhat decent coverage she REALLY has trouble with 4MSS, and I mean actual 4MSS. She needs the recovery of course, but then you want Lunar Dance, then you want Psychic, you want TWave, you want Toxic, you want Ice Beam, you want TR, you get the point.

You pointed out her flaws, and that's the reason she should remain C-. I love Cress, but being as fat as she is, just doesn't make up for all those enormous flaws.

 

[Giagantic]

to C

This thing is so bulky. No really. 120 / 120 / 130 bulk is simply insane, standing near the mythic Arceus and the Big Blob Chansey.
Now I see people who will say that Psychic is weak to Bug, Dark (Heyyy Knock Off) and Ghost 3 common attacking types. Yeah, but Chansey is weak to Close Combat and Secret Sword and she still an awesome special wall. Cresselia also resists the very very common Ground and Fighting type and that's really useful.
However she's very passive, weak to status and Moonlight has only 8 PP and heals less under sand, hail or rain, a bad defensive typing and that holds her back from being op op.
But I'll just show some calcs :
252 SpA Mega Manectric Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia: 93-111 (20.9 - 25%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Mega Lopunny Return vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Cresselia: 144-169 (32.5 - 38.1%) -- 97.8% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia: 278-330 (62.7 - 74.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 220+ SpD Cresselia in Sun: 211-249 (47.6 - 56.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
+2 252 Atk Sharp Beak Talonflame Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 40 Def Cresselia: 282-333 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

She won't survive very strong attacks, especially physical, from the likes of +1 ZardX, CB Scizor U-Turn, or Bisharp's K-Off. But you can realize that it's pretty hard to OHKO her.

Have to agree with Of Moose and Men on this one, Cresselia despite being so utterly fat is counter-balanced by its myriad of issues ranging from its lack of truly reliable recovery that isn't dependent on either sun or no weather being up in addition to it being only 8 pp which is easy enough to burn through. It is also extremely passive, far more then many other fat pokemon like Clefable, Chansey, etc who either has a great stab (moonblast) or has the consistent damage output of seismic toss.

 

[nameless90]

Scolipede B -> B-
Disagree. Here we have one of the few attackers which can forgot to invest EVs in Spe to use them all in HP and Atk with an Adamant nature thanks to its ability (with 8 EVs in Spe it reaches 262 Spe before the Spe boost). The Protect on the first turn is so predictable that you can even click Swords Dance and, then, it proceeds to sweep with the coverage provided by Earthquake. It has its flaws (such as Stealth Rock weakness even though absorbs Toxic Spikes being a grounded Poison pokemon, it has low special bulk and its Atk is not impressive despite running Adamant) but that's why it is B rank and not higher.

Mega Aggron C- -> C
Disagree. While not bad, it is not great either due to the lack of reliable recovery which hinders its ability to tank attacks. It really has a massive opportunity cost considering there are more useful defensive Megas and, even though it is a solid Stealth Rocker, it stacks annoying weaknesses to Ground, Fire and Fight which are common attacking types and -let's be honest- there are many SRockers with better typing and options in their movepool.
I'd really like to compare it to Mega Latios: they are both strong but, simply, they are "luxury Megas".

 

[WhiteQueen]

No way a Pokemon as powerful, bulky, and as versatile as Mega Alteria should be anything below A+. It doesn't really need much Speed when it can set up against a bunch of faster threats, including Mega Manetric, defensive Landorus-T, etc. with the proper EVs investment. For example, Mega Manetric's Hidden Power Ice can't 2HKOs Mega Altaria's defensive spread. So Mega Alteria can DD, Roost, and repeat. Can't status it either with its access to both Refresh and Heal Bell.

A 75/110/105 bulk with an immunity to Dragon and resistances to a plethora of attacks and a good offensive ability shouldn't be underestimated. Another knock against Mega Altaria is its inability to get past Mega Venusaur... Clefable and most Manaphys (both S-ranks) can't get past the grass dinosaur either. Neither can Keldeo, Breloom, Azumarill, and a ton of other Pokemon. Pairing a DD Altaria with Magnezone also eliminates its Steel weakness rather easily. A Pokemon that can sweep, defense, and support its team all at the same time is deserving of A+.

 

[Giagantic]

Rotom-W should be A rank as bludz's said a coupla pages ago. One of the best pivot out there if not the best, able to switch ins into the top mons right now and spread will-o-wisp everywhere. Talon, Pinsir, Skarm, Bulky Chomp, Tornadus-t, SD Scizor, Lando-T and Heatran; all of this mons can be checked by Rotom-W without some crazy set like Solar Beam Tran. Have access to Pain Split which isn't the most reliable recovery move but helps a lot specially when the HP stat isn't that good, can fit on different playstyle due to its typing, movepool and ability and can complete Volt-turn cores very easily. So yeah a versatil mon which deserves A rank imo.

I honestly agree with Rotom-Wash moving up from (A-) >(A) the reason as stated by DennisEG are fairly self-explanatory and I am sure most are aware of how complementary Rotom-Wash can be in completing cores (especially in regards to the pairing of Landorus-Therian and Rotom). Rotom's access to both Thunder Wave and Will-O-Wisp in addition to it dual electric-water stab lets it beat a vast variety of threats, disable sweepers, and just be an all around annoyance. It is these aspects that make Rotom-Wash such a valuable team mate that compresses the role of pivot/status'er into a neat little package that also happens to pair with one of OU's biggest mascots (Lando, not that Garchomp also doesn't pair nicely ;d).

 

[TheyCallMeAdolf]

No way a Pokemon as powerful, bulky, and as versatile as Mega Alteria should be anything below A+. It doesn't really need much Speed when it can set up against a bunch of faster threats, including Mega Manetric, defensive Landorus-T, etc. with the proper EVs investment. For example, Mega Manetric's Hidden Power Ice can't 2HKOs Mega Altaria's defensive spread. So Mega Alteria can DD, Roost, and repeat. Can't status it either with its access to both Refresh and Heal Bell.

A 75/110/105 bulk with an immunity to Dragon and resistances to a plethora of attacks and a good offensive ability shouldn't be underestimated. Another knock against Mega Altaria is its inability to get past Mega Venusaur... Clefable and most Manaphys (both S-ranks) can't get past the grass dinosaur either. Neither can Keldeo, Breloom, Azumarill, and a ton of other Pokemon. Pairing a DD Altaria with Magnezone also eliminates its Steel weakness rather easily. A Pokemon that can sweep, defense, and support its team all at the same time is deserving of A+.

Clefable beats venu if it twaves or calm minds on the switch; keldeo can at least scald burn it which is extremely annoying for venu. Either way, being walled by venu isn't the only critique of altaria. Its bulk is definitely fairly good between its stat/typing, but offensively its coverage is fairly limited and easy to wall. Sure, magnezone can help remove a few key threats to altaria, but I don't see any other mons in a+ that require magnezone support to the extent altaria does. Balance/stall has a plethora of mons to deal with altaria, such as venu, amoonguss, ferro, skarm, talonflame etc; offense has mons like excadrill, scizor, and scarf rachi (which is becoming fairly common), as well as being able to pressure altaria, preventing it from effectively sweeping most well-built teams. Its mediocre speed stat also really hurts ddd and mixed sets. Altaria is definitely not on par with shit like lopunny, azu, keldeo, torn-t etc, and I feel it deserves a drop.

 

[Martin]

Hm let's see Mega Altaria has Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Dragon Pulse, Return, Frustration, Ice Beam, Iron Tail, Dazzling Gleam, Solar Beam, Hyper Beam, Double-Edge and those are the ones I can think of at the top of my head. Mega Altaria has a diverse offensive movepool that isn't really limited as one would think.

Yeah, but of those moves the only ones which actually do anything for it are Return, Hyper Voice, Fire Blast, EQ and Outrage (for Venu) iirc. Its coverage pool is really not good at all, so it isn't really a big selling point for it at all.

Tbh I agree with the drop on the basis that current trends aren't really doing it any favors. Between the more offensively inclined meta (putting a lot of pressure on it before it considers setting up), an increase in those FerroTran balance cores which are able to scout and wall it appropriately wall it depending on if its Quake or Blast and some other stuff I'm too lazy to list, it has become much harder to justify using Altaria over other megas and fairies. I won't say any more on this, but imo it is more on par with MVenu and MZard than it is with MZor.

 

[TheyCallMeAdolf]

Rotom Wash To A -----> Agree
Rotom honestly, is one of the most annoying Pokemon to have ever existed. If played right, it is a dangerous pivoting force in the metagame that every team must be prepared to fight. Imo it is one of the most brilliantly designed Pokemon ever; it's typing and ability makes it a switch-in to Ground types like Excadrill and Garchomp, and is a stable in many defensive cores. With access to valuable status like Toxic, WoW, and T-Wave, and a movepool that allows it to cripple opponents and then switch out, I think that Rotom-Wash is definitely deserving of A Rank.

Mega Altaria To A ------> Disagree
Mega Altaria should stay in A+. For starters, it has an immunity to Dragon, which allows it to counter many of the scary OU Dragons, which is great defensively. It is also very versatile, running DD, Defensive DD, Special Attacking and Utility well enough. It has recovery, and wall-smashing power in Pixilate that makes two of its moves, Frustration and Hyper Voice, usable in offensive and defensive sets. Mega Altaria is good in A+.

Hm let's see Mega Altaria has Flamethrower, Fire Blast, Draco Meteor, Earthquake, Dragon Pulse, Return, Frustration, Ice Beam, Iron Tail, Dazzling Gleam, Solar Beam, Hyper Beam, Double-Edge and those are the ones I can think of at the top of my head. Mega Altaria has a diverse offensive movepool that isn't really limited as one would think.

Sorry, but since when are draco, d pulse, ice beam, iron tail, dazzling gleam, solar beam, hyper beam, or double edge things altaria runs??? And most of the moves you mentioned have the same typing and therefore contribute absolutely nothing to its coverage... fblast/flamethrower do the same thing; return and frustration do the same thing; dazzling gleam is just a worse hyper voice. Its offensive movepool on dd sets is usually return/frustration, possibly eq if not heal bell, and then possibly fblast/outrage, but those leave altaria without roost and are extremely uncommon. The mixed set has hyper voice/eq/fblast. Dragon STAB is pretty much never seen on altaria other than the fairly niche/gimmicky outrage, because it provides basically 0 coverage over fairy outside of that.

And not to come off like a cunt, but how am I supposed to take you seriously when you literally mentioned solarbeam as a move on altaria...

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

Okay, I acknowledge that I made a mistake on the moves, please do not speculate any more on that :(

----------> A?
Rotom-Wash From A- Rank to A Rank: Agree
Rotom-Wash is probably one of, if not the, most annoying Pokemon in Competitive Battling; I believe that it is one of the finest competitively engineered Pokemon to have ever existed. It has a diverse combination of great defensive typing, movepool, and stats that make it a great defensive pivot. The first thing that comes to mind would be the fact that it has two ways of crippling opponents, in Will'O'Wisp and Thunder Wave. In addition to this, it has Levitate, essentially making it a great switch-in to Ground Types, which he can burn or use a STAB Hydro Pump. For all of these reasons, Rotom-Wash fits well on many defensive cores and pairs well with other defensive Pokemon, including Ferrothorn, Landorus-Therian, and Heatran. Rotom-Wash is usable on many kinds of play styles, and has few drawbacks. I agree that the Washing Machine, which is probably one of the best pivots in the game, is deserving of A Rank for many reasons.

-----------> A?
Mega Altaria From A+ Rank to A Rank: Disagree Agree
What TheyCallMeAdolf and gamer boy said made me change my mind about whether it should drop to A Rank or not. Mega Altaria, earlier in ORAS, was a top-tier force that ran many movesets extensively well, which granted it S Rank, for a time. But shifts in the metagame presented forsaken threats and obstacles to Mega Altaria, including Defensive Cores that are capable of defeating Mega Altaria (as gamer boy said) like Ferrothorn/Heatran have been against it's favor. Mega Altaria suffers from "Four Moveslot Syndrome", which is when a Pokemon has problems because they have too many viable moves to fit in four moveslots. Mega Altaria is pretty slow compared to some of the other Dragons, so it is possible to outspeed it at +1. Because of this, several Pokemon can actually defeat Mega Altaria by a speed-tie, like Gunk Shot Hoopa-Unbound and Jolly Excadrill for example. While Mega Altaria really was once a truly viable threat at first, the changes in ORAS have unfortunately decreased Mega Altaria's viability from the mighty S Rank to people questioning on whether it should be A Rank or not.

 

[Thatwackycruton]

Subject 18 Edit: Just doing some cleaning :]

Anyway.

I think that Slowbro should drop OR Mega Slowbro should rise. I just feel that despite Mbros higher "opportunity cost" and stuff, but it's essentially that and the fact that Mbro cannot hold leftovers that sets it back an entire subrank. Yes, it does lose regenerator, but you can choose when to mega evolve. Yes I know it's not a perfect solution, but it's a decent price to pay for a ridiculous defense stat and greatly increased power. I'm not to passionate on this one and I'd understand where someone wouldn't want this to happen.

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

I think that Slowbro should drop OR Mega Slowbro should rise. I just feel that despite Mbros higher "opportunity cost" and stuff, but it's essentially that and the fact that Mbro cannot hold leftovers that sets it back an entire subrank. Yes, it does lose regenerator, but you can choose when to mega evolve. Yes I know it's not a perfect solution, but it's a decent price to pay for a ridiculous defense stat and greatly increased power. I'm not to passionate on this one and I'd understand where someone wouldn't want this to happen.

I think that Slowbro and Mega Slowbro are pretty much fine where they are. Slowbro has Regenerator, and an item slot, while Mega Slowbro is bulkier and harder-hitting. Overall I would say that Slowbro is more versatile, which is why it is ranked higher, but that is my opinion on this matter. What are your opinions on this?