Resource ORAS OU Viability Ranking Thread V4

[Thatwackycruton]

s rank does not mean a mon requires little support. the tier descriptions were dropped because that sort of thing doesnt necessarily correlate with viability or overall strength.

Latios is a fast wallbreaker in a similar vein as gengar (though with a much better nuke). Getting revenged by lopunny/weavile or trapped by pursuit users mean hardly anything because those mons practically hard counter the very role it performs. like you cant just list a bunch of things that can beat latios. Any revenge killer that doesn't switch into latios and win means nothing because it comes with the implication that latios already killed something, and in turn you're at worst trading 1 for 1 (if you have no switch ins) which is fantastic because latios probably isnt your primary wincon. hell some of the stuff you listed like mamoswine dont even win even if it does get a free switch in. when some of these are at best paralyzing it while eating a draco or whatever then all youre doing it showing how latios can be an extremely efficient mon that fucks up its own counters.

also of course between coverage moves, calm mind, recovery, and defog, its a huge nuisance in a number of other ways.

and seriously if your fighting check kills a medicham with enough health to fire off two more dracos its not exactly a bad thing.

You make some good points here, and I'll accept your opinion, but there are a few more things to note.

As long as a pursuit trapper is on the field, the best Latios can do is go 1 for 1. Likewise, Latios essentially cannot use draco meteor unless your team is comfortable giving up a turn to some very threatening setup sweepers. Latios isn't the kind of pokemon that you see on the other side of the field and immediately fret over how you're gonna defeat it. I'm going to talk about a few points towards Latios staying in A+.

1: Latios Doesn't put any pressure on teambuilding whatsoever.

I Have never, no matter what the style of team or core I'm using, needed to deliberately use a pokemon to check or counter latios. All of its checks and counters are very solid pokemon already, unlike stuff like gastrodon popping up on stall that's essentially there for scald/manaphy (which is now in A+). You could essentially make any decently defensively synergatic core and find that it's not weak to latios, unlike stuff like kyurem-B, Hoopa-U, and gengar. Latios is so easy to prepare for that it you don't need anything to counter or check it; it simply happens as an afterthought due to the numerous available checks and counters throughout the OU tier.

2: It really isn't as threatening as you make it out to be.

I am not saying for a second that draco meteor coming off of 130 SpA isn't dangerous. However, you can use this move exactly once before being bait for anything you cannot hit with a super-effective STAB. While i understand that this is the drawback of draco meteor and it does happen to every pokemon that uses it, It can't really "wallbreak" against stall teams where they have stuff like Chansey and Clefable to switch in. I assume its main targets are stuff like Rotom-W- Bulky mons without recovery. But even against stuff like Hippo that it can do a crap ton of damage to, it can still heal up and proceed to take any attack you can throw at it. This is in great contrast to other wallbreakers, who can throw around numerous attacks in a row to be much more consistently threatening to opposing teams.

3: The prevalence of its checks and counters.

What I'm trying to say here is that Latios has numerous checks and counters that are easy to fit on teams. It's not uncommon to find multiple on the same team. For instace, a team may be running slowbro, Heatran, and Ferrothorn- Even if it is running EQ or HP fire, you still have one check and one counter. However, there is another point I wanted to bring up. If Latios disappeared, would Slowbro, Heatran, and Ferrothorn become bad pokemon? No. This isn't applicable to other to top threat's counters. If Clefable disappeared, Jirachi would most likely become somewhat less viable. I'm not saying it would become unusable, but it wouldn't be as good as it once was.

4: Darkspam.

I Know this is kind of a cheesy answer, but it's a true one. with stuff like bisharp, weavile, TTar, and Hoopa-U launching attacks everywhere, latios is crushed by all of them. Keldeo as a partner can be used to allevate this to a degree, but it still doesn't change the fact that Latios is horribly weak to what is most likely the best attacking type, and is vulnerable to other important ones like bug, dragon, and Ice. Also, if you get weavile or bisharp in against Latios, they are essentially free to spam knock off, which essentially forces one of your pokemon lose their item unless Latios wants to be KOed.

I Understand that latios is a good defogger and a very important piece in the OU metagame. I just don't believe to to be as good as the pokemon in S, or, for that matter, a few of the ones in A+ such as manaphy. Latios can't destroy an entire team like Megazard X or Blanket over half the tier like Clefable. Latios is a solid pokemon and is very easy to fit on teams, but its also very well prepared for and has numerous negative qualities that, in my opinion, make it fall short of S rank.

 

[bluegrass]

I was wondering what happened to the mega Manectric discussion about moving it up to a+? I didint see it on the discussion panel. Anyway I'd like to give my opinion on this pokemon.

First off Manectric is currently tied for being tied (with mega lopunny) the third fastest usable pokemon in this tier with only mega aero, mega sceptile, mega alakazam, and mega beedrill outspeeding it. Notably only 2 of these pokemon are ou and mega manectric beats some of these pokemon in a 1v1 notably mega lopunny and mega sceptile.

252 SpA Manectric Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Mega Sceptile: 260-308 (92.5 - 109.6%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Not only that but he acts as a great revenge killer and has intmadate allowing him to take on and beat a lot of physical attacker despite its not very good physical defense. Manectric is also currently the only electric type pokemon packing good fire type coverage moves allowing him to beat threats other electric types (raikou and thundurus-i mainly) are not always going to be able to beat such as ferrothorn, weavile, excadrill, etc. I also forgot to mention that intimidate allows him to get a lot of "free" switches. Obviously also due to hp ice he can beat many ground types that normally he couldn't beat but all other electric types usually run this too so its not so notable. I'd also like to say he requires much less support then every mega in the a tier rn with the exception of mega medicham (who struggles with mega sableye). Being immune to paralysis is also extremely helpful for him allowing him to constantly apply pressure to the opposing team.

252 SpA Mega Sceptile Leaf Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Manectric: 277-327 (98.5 - 116.3%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO

Mega Mane doesn't 1v1 Mega Sceptile at all, not that that shouldn't be a reason for him to rise. I use Mega Manectric on roughly half my teams, but I'm pretty neutral about him rising.

So this isn't a shit post I don't really think Latios belongs in S rank, literally just because of his horrible weakness to pursuit. If your opponent has a Tyranitar on his team Latios becomes somewhat of a liability due to the fact that the only way to avoid being pursuit trapped it switching immediately after coming in. AV Metagross and AV Bisharp (not really a great set tbh) also hamper Latios, although not to the extant of TTar. You can go ahead and say that the Tyranitar switch in is really obvious, but until that TTar is dead, the best Latios can do is go 1 for 1 on your opponent's team. That doesn't really scream S rank to me.

The posts above me did a great job explaining Latios other flaws, but tbh I think the pursuit weakness is what's keeping him from S. I guess you could always run something like HP Fighting Latios, but it really misses out on the coverage of HP Fire or Earthquake, and Choice Scarf TTar can still switch in on HP fighting and trap him. Even if you predict the pursuit and stay in, your gonna lose around 60% of your health, and after life orb damage and sand damage your Latios is at like 10% health.

Happy New Years to all my Eastern Time zone peeps.

 

[Costi]

You make some good points here, and I'll accept your opinion, but there are a few more things to note.

As long as a pursuit trapper is on the field, the best Latios can do is go 1 for 1. Likewise, Latios essentially cannot use draco meteor unless your team is comfortable giving up a turn to some very threatening setup sweepers. Latios isn't the kind of pokemon that you see on the other side of the field and immediately fret over how you're gonna defeat it. I'm going to talk about a few points towards Latios staying in A+.

1: Latios Doesn't put any pressure on teambuilding whatsoever.

I Have never, no matter what the style of team or core I'm using, needed to deliberately use a pokemon to check or counter latios. All of its checks and counters are very solid pokemon already, unlike stuff like gastrodon popping up on stall that's essentially there for scald/manaphy (which is now in A+). You could essentially make any decently defensively synergatic core and find that it's not weak to latios, unlike stuff like kyurem-B, Hoopa-U, and gengar. Latios is so easy to prepare for that it you don't need anything to counter or check it; it simply happens as an afterthought due to the numerous available checks and counters throughout the OU tier.

2: It really isn't as threatening as you make it out to be.

I am not saying for a second that draco meteor coming off of 130 SpA isn't dangerous. However, you can use this move exactly once before being bait for anything you cannot hit with a super-effective STAB. While i understand that this is the drawback of draco meteor and it does happen to every pokemon that uses it, It can't really "wallbreak" against stall teams where they have stuff like Chansey and Clefable to switch in. I assume its main targets are stuff like Rotom-W- Bulky mons without recovery. But even against stuff like Hippo that it can do a crap ton of damage to, it can still heal up and proceed to take any attack you can throw at it. This is in great contrast to other wallbreakers, who can throw around numerous attacks in a row to be much more consistently threatening to opposing teams.

3: The prevalence of its checks and counters.

What I'm trying to say here is that Latios has numerous checks and counters that are easy to fit on teams. It's not uncommon to find multiple on the same team. For instace, a team may be running slowbro, Heatran, and Ferrothorn- Even if it is running EQ or HP fire, you still have one check and one counter. However, there is another point I wanted to bring up. If Latios disappeared, would Slowbro, Heatran, and Ferrothorn become bad pokemon? No. This isn't applicable to other to top threat's counters. If Clefable disappeared, Jirachi would most likely become somewhat less viable. I'm not saying it would become unusable, but it wouldn't be as good as it once was.

4: Darkspam.

I Know this is kind of a cheesy answer, but it's a true one. with stuff like bisharp, weavile, TTar, and Hoopa-U launching attacks everywhere, latios is crushed by all of them. Keldeo as a partner can be used to allevate this to a degree, but it still doesn't change the fact that Latios is horribly weak to what is most likely the best attacking type, and is vulnerable to other important ones like bug, dragon, and Ice. Also, if you get weavile or bisharp in against Latios, they are essentially free to spam knock off, which essentially forces one of your pokemon lose their item unless Latios wants to be KOed.

I Understand that latios is a good defogger and a very important piece in the OU metagame. I just don't believe to to be as good as the pokemon in S, or, for that matter, a few of the ones in A+ such as manaphy. Latios can't destroy an entire team like Megazard X or Blanket over half the tier like Clefable. Latios is a solid pokemon and is very easy to fit on teams, but its also very well prepared for and has numerous negative qualities that, in my opinion, make it fall short of S rank.

I think you are really really underselling it.

While i agree that it should not move up, the reasons you are giving are just not that good.

I think the main reason why it shouldn't be S is because how pursuit trapper are common right now. The rise of AV metagross on offensive teams, and the big popularity of ttar are it's main 2 problems and seeing how you find a pursuit trapper in a lot of teams make Latios a bit of a liability.

Anyway Latios really provide so much for a team both offensively and defensively. Latios can carry the coverage to lure all the threats you mentioned: tbolt for slowbro, eq or surf for heatran and hp fire for Ferrothorn and Scizor. While it can't carry everything on one set, you are likely to be lured by Latios if you don't scout well with your mons, just because you assume that it is the standard dual stab + roost defog. People usually scout only for HP fire. Anyway, don't try to sell that no matter the team you build, without worrying to cover latios, you eventually have a team that cover it. As I said, if you have Ferrothorn as your only Latios switchin you are likely to be in a bad situation if it has HP fire, and the same applies if you have a Heatran as your unique check.
When I check my team weaknesses, having a good way of dealing with Latios is one of the first thing I try to have.

It also brings to the table huge defensive utility, being on of the few pokemon on offense that don't fear Keldeo. It has a really nice typing and it's invaluable in most bulky offense teams, that struggles with the like of Keldeo, Manaphy and Zard Y (the fact that this monster is usually seen with Ttar is a problem, not gonna lie). Defog support is just great :O

 

[Physical Tyranitar]

I think latias deserves 'A' Rank . It is the best defogger in OU and is almost a must if u dont hav starmie or tentacruel (or maybe latios). I use it almost all my teams and obvi u ppl too.It can pull the game back fr u with healing wish!

>>>>A

Although Latias is nothing short of a true threat, it is generally outclassed in what it does by Latios. Latios is more offensively threatening than Latias is, and Latios also can Defog. I would say that A- Rank is good for the Jet Dragon, at least for the time being.

 

[nameless90]

Mega Aerodactyl: A- -> B+ AGREE
This thing is so weak it isn't even funny even though it has Though Claws but this isn't enough to rectify the mid-to-low base power of its coverage moves bar Stone Edge. It is a good check to some threats having a blazing Spe and access to Roost, but Stealth Rock weakness and a sad weakness to Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, and Bullet Punch (and neutral to Mach Punch) is the nail in the coffin due to the fact they are quite popular/common ===> drop to B+: it lacks power behind its moves and, often, lacks actual bulk to justify the loss of a Mega slot (you can have better tanks and better late game cleaner than this Mega).

Tangrowth: B -> B+ DISAGREE
While it is a good monster, it has some trouble with its poor defensive typing and with its SpD which is usable only when invested and with the aid of an Assault Vest which can be a problem with so much Knock Off spam otherwise it is meager even to tank resisted special attacks. At least the other Regenerator users have or some support moves to differentiate (Spore, Foul Play and Clear Smog in the case of Amoongus) or other advantages (Slowbro can even use a Megastone and Tornadus-T has a good offensive presence with that high Spe). It suffers a lot of competition with the other Grass types (i.e. Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, Mega-Venusaur) which have a secondary typing (= better defensive sinergy with the rest of the team) and better mixed bulk. I can see it even dropping in B- rank on par with the other threats of that rank.

Am I allowed to ask why Scolipede was dropped?

P.S. Happy New Year from Italy.

 

[AM]

Am I allowed to ask why Scolipede was dropped?

Sure

Its cleaning capabilities are exaggerated in a meta that puts emphasis on Defensive Lando-T and Tankchomp for one so the defensive set is nurtured by the amount of effort needed to actually get it going. It's a pretty mediocre and team specific suicide lead that even on a good day takes a lot of effort to pull off successfully. Even if you pull it off successfully it assumes that the nature of your team was able to keep its Spikes on the field the entire time and this is easier said than done. It doesnt really sport a whole lot of utility where it's on par with the likes of more popular choices such as AV Metagross, Amoonguss, and Scizor which while they all provide different functions it just goes to show what people are actually more likely to use for the sake of effectiveness. It hasn't maintained effectiveness and has become somewhat of a pretty niche option to use these days over other Spikers. Toxic Spikers, and cleaners, which is why it dropped.

 

[Adamant Zoroark]

Latios

I didn't agree with the move when Latios was moved to S a while back (I think it was in the XY meta) and I certainly don't agree now. Choice Specs is a powerful nuke on paper, but anything with Pursuit (and I mean ANYTHING with Pursuit) turns it into a liability. Hell, the Draco Meteor stat drop is so crippling that I've been able to beat Latios using teams that are theoretically weak to Latios by having SD Lucario or something set up on a -2 Latios - which I've been doing since BW and this strategy hasn't changed since. And whenever I personally use it, I immediately change it because of how easily it's made into a liability - Pursuit trap and bam there goes your nuke, or maybe your opponent takes advantage of a -2 Latios and uses it as setup bait.

Sure, Latios has great utility as an offensive Defogger - that's why it's A+. But something so easily turned into a liability should not be S, plain and simple.

 

[zaaya]

It's about time i contribute, also happy new years doods

Mega Gyarados: A -> A-Gotta say i was a bit torn on this one, while being one of my favorite megas to use it does have some issues and they've always stemmed from its case of 4MSS. The stallbreaker set for example consisting of DD/Taunt/Dual Stab has a tough time vs extremely common mons you'll commonly see on offense/BO like Keldeo, Azu, Tankchomp, Rotom-w, M-Alakazam and Breloom messes with it hard (although those two apply to all sets, assuming it has M-Evolved). The DD 3 attack set which i favor covers a lot in the meta but still has to pick what things it can cover. Crunch/EQ/Ice fang (the set i've seen most used) funnily enough leaves it walled by/able to be phased by Hippo and struggles against the extremely common clef. Sets w/out crunch are walled by bulky psychics, sets w/out ice fang are asking to get beaten by Tankchomp/Malt/Bulky grasses and sets w/out eq have no way to hit Keld/Azu hard.

Those are just some just minor cons to point out though, being a mon that's extremely versatile with each of its sets being able to f*ck over stall/fat or sweep through frailer teams with a boost having fantastic bulk and a great pre-mega typing/ability in Intimidate ( which also lets it check a plethora of threats Volc, Sand, CharY and some physical attackers to an extent) compliments it perfectly letting it set up even easier. (Seriously, the amount of mons it can take a hit and set up on is unreal). Each of it's of "checks" can be easily tailored to with its team depending on its set (For example dark spam/spikes/repeated SR switches pressures Keld/Azu, prior damage on clef/luring clef isn't exactly a hard thing to acheive while physical spam wears down the immortal TankChomp :^). It isn't as outright threatening as some other Megas are in A including the likes of CharY, Gard, MegaCham, and while admittedly having fallen out of favor as of late being a little more team dependant, still stands out as a unique and extremely threatening sweeper that deserves the rank imo alongside it's DD fairy counterpart Malt. The postives with this mon outweigh the negatives and should Stay in A. (at least that's what i'm leaning towards rn :x)

 

[Costi]

Mega Aerodactyl: A- -> B+ AGREE
This thing is so weak it isn't even funny even though it has Though Claws but this isn't enough to rectify the mid-to-low base power of its coverage moves bar Stone Edge. It is a good check to some threats having a blazing Spe and access to Roost, but Stealth Rock weakness and a sad weakness to Aqua Jet, Ice Shard, and Bullet Punch (and even Mach Punch when Roosting) is the nail in the coffin due to the fact they are quite popular/common ===> drop to B+: it lacks power behind its moves and, often, lacks actual bulk to justify the loss of a Mega slot (you can have better tanks and better late game cleaner than this Mega).

Tangrowth: B -> B+ DISAGREE
While it is a good monster, it has some trouble with its poor defensive typing and with its SpD which is usable only when invested and with the aid of an Assault Vest which can be a problem with so much Knock Off spam otherwise it is meager even to tank resisted special attacks. At least the other Regenerator users have or some support moves to differentiate (Spore, Foul Play and Clear Smog in the case of Amoongus) or other advantages (Slowbro can even use a Megastone and Tornadus-T has a good offensive presence with that high Spe). It suffers a lot of competition with the other Grass types (i.e. Ferrothorn, Amoonguss, Mega-Venusaur) which have a secondary typing (= better defensive sinergy with the rest of the team) and better mixed bulk. I can see it even dropping in B- rank on par with the other threats of that rank.

Am I allowed to ask why Scolipede was dropped?

P.S. Happy New Year from Italy.

Just a thing nameless90 lol, the relation mach punch and roost is a bit wrong lol, you can't roost before the opponent mach punch :D Anyway, I agree :D

 

[blank]

1: Latios Doesn't put any pressure on teambuilding whatsoever.

I Have never, no matter what the style of team or core I'm using, needed to deliberately use a pokemon to check or counter latios. All of its checks and counters are very solid pokemon already, unlike stuff like gastrodon popping up on stall that's essentially there for scald/manaphy (which is now in A+). You could essentially make any decently defensively synergatic core and find that it's not weak to latios, unlike stuff like kyurem-B, Hoopa-U, and gengar. Latios is so easy to prepare for that it you don't need anything to counter or check it; it simply happens as an afterthought due to the numerous available checks and counters throughout the OU tier.

except you pretty much always need a lati switch-in. while this isn't too difficult on fatter balanced builds, semi-stall, stall, etc., on offense, it can be quite annoying. while pokemon that can check lati like scarf tar, bisharp, mega scizor, scarf jirachi, av metagross, etc. aren't bad by any means, being forced to run one can affect teambuilding in a major way, and it shows that latios does, in fact, put pressure on teambuilding. also, these more offensive checks i mentioned aren't even that great at switching into latios multiple times, and / or they're pretty predictable; while scarf ttar with pursuit and av metagross with pursuit are great, it isn't too difficult for your opponent to figure out when you're bringing them out.

Latios

I didn't agree with the move when Latios was moved to S a while back (I think it was in the XY meta) and I certainly don't agree now. Choice Specs is a powerful nuke on paper, but anything with Pursuit (and I mean ANYTHING with Pursuit) turns it into a liability. Hell, the Draco Meteor stat drop is so crippling that I've been able to beat Latios using teams that are theoretically weak to Latios by having SD Lucario or something set up on a -2 Latios - which I've been doing since BW and this strategy hasn't changed since. And whenever I personally use it, I immediately change it because of how easily it's made into a liability - Pursuit trap and bam there goes your nuke, or maybe your opponent takes advantage of a -2 Latios and uses it as setup bait.

Sure, Latios has great utility as an offensive Defogger - that's why it's A+. But something so easily turned into a liability should not be S, plain and simple.

idk why choice specs latios is being brought up when that set is widely considered just plain not good. when i was doing sets viability with bludz, we discussed taking it off; considering bludz is also on the main viability council too, i don't think they're considering specs lati when discussing this nom :x

i should also mention that i'm pretty indifferent to the latios to S nom, but i just had to comment on some of these arguments :s

 

[Freeroamer]

Talking about Pursuit trappers just in relation to Latios itself and not taking into account its team is actually pretty narrow minded when you consider well built teams utilising Latios will have a way to take advantage of said Pursuit trapper, especially TTar. One of the best examples of this I can think of are Get Backer vs Marshall Law in Smogtour 16 I think? Lati Defogs and gets trapped by an obvious Ttar, but that gives freedom for Zard X to set up and just win the game from there pretty much. An Archphantom team with SD Weavile and Bisharp pressured Pursuiters on a Latias build too. It's definitely a flaw of Latios but it isn't as much of a hindrance as some of the arguments here make out.

As for the nomination itself, I agree with it simply because I think Latios is a cut above the rest of A+ in its splashability and the threat it provides both in the teambuilder and in play. As has already been mentioned it's something every team needs to account for and is a pretty big contributor(among other things obviously) to how very few teams can go without a Steel type or one of the few non-Steel dedicated checks to it(Clef / Chans / Tar etc.). It has p little opportunity cost given the roles it can compress(Keldeo check / Defog / Manaphy check / Zard Y check). Yeah all of those are commonly run with Pursuit but that's because Lati is so good and splashable, it exerts pressure on the builder to eliminate it.

 

[SketchUp]

except you pretty much always need a lati switch-in. while this isn't too difficult on fatter balanced builds, semi-stall, stall, etc., on offense, it can be quite annoying.

Jirachi, TTar, Weavile, Excadrill, Metagross, Bisharp, Heatran, Sitrus Azu, Klefki, MGardevoir? I don't really see how offense is forced to run one of these pokemon when all of these pokemon are great on offense to begin with because they also check other stuff like Garde, Keldeo, Zard-X, MZam etc. What is the last time you felt immediately threatened by Latios on team preview? Because literally every playstyle has checks to it.

also, these more offensive checks i mentioned aren't even that great at switching into latios multiple times, and / or they're pretty predictable; while scarf ttar with pursuit and av metagross with pursuit are great, it isn't too difficult for your opponent to figure out when you're bringing them out.

Welcome to the playstyle called ''offense''. Latios doesn't have the durability to stay alive too long against offense because it either has to give up Roost to be able to hit steel types, or is still pressured a lot by any of the mons above, but also revengekillers like SR Exca, Knock Off Thundy, Weavile, Chomp, Diancie, Kyu-B, Hoopa-U and more. So yeah even if you are able to stay alive because you keep Roost instead of HP Fire or come in on free switches + you are able to break through all the good checks to Latios, there are still a handful of revengekillers on offense.

As for the nomination itself, I agree with it simply because I think Latios is a cut above the rest of A+ in its splashability and the threat it provides both in the teambuilder and in play. As has already been mentioned it's something every team needs to account for and is a pretty big contributor(among other things obviously) to how very few teams can go without a Steel type or one of the few non-Steel dedicated checks to it(Clef / Chans / Tar etc.).

As you said, very few teams can go without a steel type. How is this a good thing again? There are so many pokemon that dropped because their checks are really common (especially happened a lot when hippow, torn-t and weavile rose in usage), so why all of the sudden does Latios deserve a rise when literally every single team has good and viable checks to this thing, alongside the fact that quite a few pokemon also have recovery to be able to switch in multiple times in a match?

I mean it's not even true that Latios puts a lot of pressure on teambuilding because even without Latios you would see a steel type on nearly every team. Fairies are common, other dragon types are common, pokemon like Kyurem-B and Mega Vensaur are common; a steel type is simply almost a necessity in this metagame. Not saying that a steel type directly gives you a solid Latios counter, but it at least puts some pressure on Latios before simply clicking Draco Meteor, and as said before: if you run HP Fire or EQ to get around Ferro, Scizor and Heatran (other steel types survive both of them), you have to give up either Defog (b-b-but finding another possible defogger or spinner puts so much pressure on the teambuilder) Roost (without Roost Latios doesn't have the durability to be really effective against offense) or one of the STABs (disadvantages are obvious).

 

[Alfalfa]

Not saying that a steel type directly gives you a solid Latios counter, but it at least puts some pressure on Latios before simply clicking Draco Meteor, and as said before: if you run HP Fire or EQ to get around Ferro, Scizor and Heatran (other steel types survive both of them), you have to give up either Defog (b-b-but finding another possible defogger or spinner puts so much pressure on the teambuilder) Roost (without Roost Latios doesn't have the durability to be really effective against offense) or one of the STABs (disadvantages are obvious).

Defog is not as much of a necessity on Latios as Draco Meteor or Psychic / Psyshock, it only really is necessary if it is being paired with a Pokemon that has issues with hazards eating into them. Teams that do not use Pokemon with Zard X / Talonflame / Weavile / Thundurus / etc.... do not necessarily need to run hazard removal. Latios can be run simply for its offensive capabilities or its ability to soft check Keldeo and Zard Y.

 

[Costi]

Jirachi, TTar, Weavile, Excadrill, Metagross, Bisharp, Heatran, Sitrus Azu, Klefki, MGardevoir? I don't really see how offense is forced to run one of these pokemon when all of these pokemon are great on offense to begin with because they also check other stuff like Garde, Keldeo, Zard-X, MZam etc. What is the last time you felt immediately threatened by Latios on team preview? Because literally every playstyle has checks to it.

Welcome to the playstyle called ''offense''. Latios doesn't have the durability to stay alive too long against offense because it either has to give up Roost to be able to hit steel types, or is still pressured a lot by any of the mons above, but also revengekillers like SR Exca, Knock Off Thundy, Weavile, Chomp, Diancie, Kyu-B, Hoopa-U and more. So yeah even if you are able to stay alive because you keep Roost instead of HP Fire or come in on free switches + you are able to break through all the good checks to Latios, there are still a handful of revengekillers on offense.

As you said, very few teams can go without a steel type. How is this a good thing again? There are so many pokemon that dropped because their checks are really common (especially happened a lot when hippow, torn-t and weavile rose in usage), so why all of the sudden does Latios deserve a rise when literally every single team has good and viable checks to this thing, alongside the fact that quite a few pokemon also have recovery to be able to switch in multiple times in a match?

I mean it's not even true that Latios puts a lot of pressure on teambuilding because even without Latios you would see a steel type on nearly every team. Fairies are common, other dragon types are common, pokemon like Kyurem-B and Mega Vensaur are common; a steel type is simply almost a necessity in this metagame. Not saying that a steel type directly gives you a solid Latios counter, but it at least puts some pressure on Latios before simply clicking Draco Meteor, and as said before: if you run HP Fire or EQ to get around Ferro, Scizor and Heatran (other steel types survive both of them), you have to give up either Defog (b-b-but finding another possible defogger or spinner puts so much pressure on the teambuilder) Roost (without Roost Latios doesn't have the durability to be really effective against offense) or one of the STABs (disadvantages are obvious).

If you have an offensive team and Weavile (without Pursuit) or Mgarde are your only Latios answer, then you are pretty much fucked up. Weavile can only revenge it, Mgarde has chance to die to 2 Psyshock lol. How is sitrus azu a good latios check? It literally takes a payshock, you switch and the next time you get in you are likely to destroy something. Bisharp, if not AV takes a ton from draco and if you run the standard sd set i can just switch or, if run pursuit, i can force a 50-50 between pursuit and sucker punch. The driller is a shaky check too, cause Draco does a ton and you can simply switch out and then let it get in later. Av metagross, ttar, klefki and jirachi are good anyway not gonna lie.

 

[blank]

Jirachi, TTar, Weavile, Excadrill, Metagross, Bisharp, Heatran, Sitrus Azu, Klefki, MGardevoir? I don't really see how offense is forced to run one of these pokemon when all of these pokemon are great on offense to begin with because they also check other stuff like Garde, Keldeo, Zard-X, MZam etc. What is the last time you felt immediately threatened by Latios on team preview? Because literally every playstyle has checks to it.

Welcome to the playstyle called ''offense''. Latios doesn't have the durability to stay alive too long against offense because it either has to give up Roost to be able to hit steel types, or is still pressured a lot by any of the mons above, but also revengekillers like SR Exca, Knock Off Thundy, Weavile, Chomp, Diancie, Kyu-B, Hoopa-U and more. So yeah even if you are able to stay alive because you keep Roost instead of HP Fire or come in on free switches + you are able to break through all the good checks to Latios, there are still a handful of revengekillers on offense.

As you said, very few teams can go without a steel type. How is this a good thing again? There are so many pokemon that dropped because their checks are really common (especially happened a lot when hippow, torn-t and weavile rose in usage), so why all of the sudden does Latios deserve a rise when literally every single team has good and viable checks to this thing, alongside the fact that quite a few pokemon also have recovery to be able to switch in multiple times in a match?

I mean it's not even true that Latios puts a lot of pressure on teambuilding because even without Latios you would see a steel type on nearly every team. Fairies are common, other dragon types are common, pokemon like Kyurem-B and Mega Vensaur are common; a steel type is simply almost a necessity in this metagame. Not saying that a steel type directly gives you a solid Latios counter, but it at least puts some pressure on Latios before simply clicking Draco Meteor, and as said before: if you run HP Fire or EQ to get around Ferro, Scizor and Heatran (other steel types survive both of them), you have to give up either Defog (b-b-but finding another possible defogger or spinner puts so much pressure on the teambuilder) Roost (without Roost Latios doesn't have the durability to be really effective against offense) or one of the STABs (disadvantages are obvious).

the point i was making is that because you have to have a latios check, that shows it's a threat. i specifically said that those things i listed aren't bad in any way, and i was responding to the person above's claim that you don't need a latios check at all.

also, using the argument of "duh it'll weaken it's checks down, it's offense" isn't really the best. not only do you need a steel type, but you need a steel type that can switch in and immediately pressure lati a few times during the game (doesn't have to be a steel type ofc... just focusing on your steel type argument). running something bulky roost + pursuit mega scizor on offense isn't the best idea because it'll kill momentum; the other checks i mentioned are good, again, but they aren't necessarily perfect when they can either be easily played around or weakened by lati very quickly. with non-pursuit trappers, you'll be able to force lati out (which is nice with rocks up), but this will be at the cost of you probably getting hit pretty hard by a draco, or the opposing lati defogging your hazards away. with pursuit trappers like scarf-tar and av metagross, it's pretty easy for your opponent to figure out when you're bringing it in, and like Freeroamer said, this will usually lead to your opponent bringing in a teammate that can easily set up / apply pressure / grab momentum due to your pursuit trapper.

 

[Vinc608]

Since ORAS started, I always considered Latios as one of the best A+ (if not the best). In this discussion, I don't understand one thing : What metagame changes makes Latios S Rank at the moment? I'm really neutral on this but I'm really interested how people will respond to this question.

AM Edit: If you read this, read the update post where it shows where the post derives from. It's for the sake of discussion.

 

[Srn]

Mega Gyarados: A -> A- No
This guy may need healing wish to be used best, may a good amount of support to weaken checks, and may need some SR support, but it's very worth it. Thanks to lando-t and garchomp, ice fang is pretty much a must, but mega gyarados still delivers and does what it needs to do. It's very bulky, it outpaces base 145s after a boost, and its flexibility with typing lets it get up a dd pretty easily. It's checks are pretty easy to pressure and weaken with spikes (keldeo&ferro) or otherwise just lure or trap (clef&skarm). Taunt dd is a pretty swell wallbreaker as well, nailing mega sab with a mold breaker taunt and proceeding to set up dragon dances with impunity; it's even better that skarm carry iron head nowadays too. It's definitely still an A rank threat with its bulk and versatility.

Mega Aerodactyl: A- -> B+ yes
Yeah this thing needs to drop. It should be mentioned that it greatly benefits from the presence of torn, but Lando-T is #1 in usage on ladder and OLT (used over 100 times throughout playoffs alone) and stuff like bulkychomp, rotom-w, and mega scizor are still very common and very good. Quite frankly, it's not a mega that i'd use in this meta given all the shit it needs weakened to even perform against the playstyle its supposed to be good against.

Mega Tyranitar: B -> B- yes
It breaks my heart to say this, but this should pretty much be dropping too. Ferro, zor, rotom-w, lando-t, bulky chomp, and increased usage of loom all hinder it a lot; it just needs way too much weakened to get started. Not to mention that the popular and amazing mega lop revenge kills it even after a dd, which is seriously shitty for our beloved dinosaur. Stick to scarf :/

Mega Heracross: B+ -> B no
A lot of players think that "hur dur landoT at large this thing's bad" but lando-t honestly doesn't quite stop it. ROck blast does 30-40% after intimidate, and lando-T can do absolutely nothing back. After one switch-in and rocks, its pretty much done. If anything, you could make an argument that the presence of clef and torn should make it drop, but I think that given its bulk and power and the fact that it doesn't give two shits about bulky chomp either, B+ is perfectly fine for it. It's good at forcing in physical walls to take damage while not being threatened much itself.

Amoonguss: B -> B+ yes
Absolutely. This thing should honestly be A, but we can take baby steps for sure. The sheer amount of stuff this stupid mushroom checks just puts it above the rest. Keldeo, rotom-w, diancie, altaria, azu, breloom and serperior are all hard walled by this retarded parasite that you cannot wear down with burns, much to keldeo and rotom-w's dismay. Regenerator+clear smog is a combination that shuts down any and every serperior, and spore lets it put a mon out of the match as well. It even has foul play to punish some set up from mons like zard-x or talonflame. It's definitely worthy of a raise in a meta where waters are so good.

Togekiss: B+ -> B yes
All it's really there for is to ct stall teams, and even then, thanks to hoopa-u every stall and balance is practically forced to carry scarftar, which puts a nail in togekiss's plans. It needs rocks support too, and while it is bulky and while scarf toge is a wincon, it's really not what it used to be only because of scarftar. A drop is needed.

Tangrowth: B -> B+ yes
Very similar to amoonguss in the threats it can check, but in exchange for the defensive benefits of poison typing, it gets a solid offensive movepool and good offensive stats to toy with, making for a great AV (or even specs) set. It can use hp fire and eq to beat steels, hp ice to beat chomps and lando-t's, eq to catch trans, rock slide to hit talons and torns, knock off to be broken, and if you decide to go leftovers, you can even mess with sleep powder and stun spore. Given all that it checks and all the damage it can deal, it should go up.

Gastrodon: B -> B+ neutral
haven't rly used gastro much, but i can see why it would be nommed up. Water+electric immunity is cool, and scald burns are op. It also has the potential to clean with curse, and reliable recovery is good as well. It's a solid mon.

Mega Sharpedo: B -> B- yes
It needs even more support than mega gyarados does, while lacking the same flexibility and bulk. The increased popularity of keldeo with nothing to hit it with doesn't help either, considering that (waterfall/crunch/ice fang/protect) is the necessary set at this point (maybe pjab over waterfall but not hitting tar sounds like a shitty idea). It's just really inflexible and meta trends aren't in its favor, it should drop.

Tyrantrum: B- -> C+ yes
This thing was already a lost cause; the increase in scarf tar due to hoopa encourages more exca on balanced builds, bulky chomp and lando-t are at large, punishing head smashes and anything much else, and the popularity of loom and mzor shuts down sweeps as well. It's just not good enough to pull its weight against offense, and there are better stallbreakers out there as well. It should drop.

Crawdaunt: B- -> B maybe
More keldeo, breloom, and bulky chomp makes me hesitant to raise crawdaunt; altho the increase in sdef skarm definitely helps it, it's just way too easy to revenge kill. However, it should be noted that the typical chans/skarm/quag/amoong/sab builds get absolutely murdered by this thing, and while its performance against offense keeps getting worse, its still going strong against stall. The increased speed that balance has thanks to scarf tar and excadrill and torn doesn't present a problem to crawdaunt either thanks to aqua jet.

Some other noms that were mentioned:
Kyu-b: A --> A- nah
whitequeen summed it up well. It doesn't have any 100% safe switch-ins, and its unique coverage hits shit like mvenu/tran/skarm/rotom-w/lando-t all at once, which nothing else can do. Its defensive utility in checking shit like rotom-w, manaphy, raikou, and mega manectric is great too, as is being a good BD azu check. I nommed it up to A+ a while back, but I now think it's good where it is.

Mega Manectric A --> A+ nah
It's a super good mon, checking talon and torn-t and threatening offense with its awesome electric/fire/ice coverage but hippo literally shuts it down at team preview. Somebody said hippo use was dropping or something, but it's still the 6th most used mon during OLT playoffs, that's plenty common enough for Megaman to go no higher than A. Scarftar pursuiting it on the way out is pretty shitty too.

Diancie A+ --> A lol
Yeah this was adressed pretty thoroughly, i dont think it needs to be again.

Latios A+ --> S nah
While it's quite meta-defining, it's way too easy to check by any playstyle, it does have hard counters (like sdef rachi), and pursuit from not just ttar, but also stuff like av meta and weavile can just take latios out of the game. It's a consistent and good mon, and it gets an incredible amount of usage for these reasons (#5 on OLT usage stats). It's also just really bad at defogging. Depending on its coverage, it loses to ferro/skarm or tran, and it loses to tar, rachi, clef, celebi, klefki, and chansey in terms of hazards. It's far too easy to check and shutdown, and its forced to drop defog or roost to not be total fodder to every steel type, but it's good enough to stay where it is because of its power, bulk, typing, etc.
Also, specs latios is definitely not bad, 2hko'ing clefable with psyshock is literally all the information you need to justify using it lol.

Mmeta A+ --> A yes
Mmeta's bulk is one of the biggest reasons to use it. Checking azu, garde, lati, clef, breloom, diancie, zam, dragonite, kyu-b, etc etc is just amazing.
Now along comes big bad bulky chomp. Even with ice punch, you lose half your health muscling past this piece of shit. Your bulk is gone, and one of your moveslots is also gone because you're forced to run ice punch. Bulky garchomp taking away almost all of what makes gross good, its bulky and versatility, really just fucking sucks. Atleast you'll terrorize the team after chomp is gone but losing half of your health in doing so is just REALLY terrible. You can't even switch into lati after all that recoil man :<
Also speed tier before mega evo is annoying sometimes.

Sorry the post is so long and exhaustive but I think that covers everything...

 

[Ajwf]

How is this even a question with Latios... It's the fastest and strongest utility mon in the game. It is literally excellent in damage output, bulk and utility to a team. What more do you want? You get a free fuck-you for keldeo, the fastest defog clear in OU, one of the fastest drag-delivered stab nukes, and something that can even take on it's checks if it really feels like it. Sure you can take a steel and absorb the nuking for a while. However, unless you're using spdef skarm or wish rachi, you're eventually going to get worn down whereas latias/latios both have roost. And as we've seen the meta adapt and people start to use Bisharp/TTar to kill the two or heatran to absorb it, latios just picks up hp fighting or earthquake and lures out his own threats.

Most utility monsters don't have any opportunity to beat their own threats/counters like ferro/tran and such. Esspecially if we look at Ferrothorn and Heatran when used for utility. Those two have clearly defined weaknesses and while heatran's offensive sets dilute this, Ferrothorn obviously cannot dream of taking on one of it's checks. Even the S rank 'utility monster' Sableye-mega (Let's be real: Magic bounce on a defensive monster with excellent typing is what makes him great, not the typing or bulk independently. See:Spiritomb) struggles to take on his natural counters, fairy types. There's ZERO WAY around this. This is a crucial difference between Latios and all other OU utility monsters. Latios, until this generation, functioned as an offensive mon with great bulk and speed. The fact that he can still perform this role while being arguably the best balance/offensive defogger in the game is just one of the many mentioned reasons why he's been something you absolutely HAVE to prepare for since XY. I disagree with SRN when he says it's not reliable at defogging. Only a few mons in the entire tier is going to come in and make you think twice about it. And you can destroy a few of those: at WORST play a 50/50 once bisharp is in if you want. You have so many options for sets.

Look, if latios didn't have defog, sure he probably isn't S because he's now an offensive monster only. But let's be real: a low percentage of latios' are used for other purposes outside of defogging. A bit anecdotal but still: If latios was bad at defogging, the duties would've passed on to the next best in the meta (probably skarm?). But Latios remains the best offensive defogger in the game and as a utility mon, one of the most widespread, diverse and strong monsters in that category.

 

[DoABarrelRoll]

A Pursuit-weak mon is not what I would call something worthy of S at this point. Latios is one of the better A+ mons but the presence of Weavile, Tyranitar, Scizor, Bisharp, AV Metagross and stuff bite it in the ass, meaning it requires good prediction against most sand and HO teams.

P.S Specs Latios is ass

 

[Kibblecat]

It's easy to play up Latios' move pool and it's number of possibilities a bit too much, as if this thing is totally unpredictable, and that the necessity of multiple checks comes from not ever knowing what it's running. It's not. Scouting for HP fire isn't that hard in the grand scheme of things when you're not likely to have more than one thing super weak to it, and neither is EQ when all it needs to hit with it is Tran. Surf is poo outside of rain/CM. The analysis lists a ton of other moves that aren't really swinging it into S rank either, I mean how many Latios do you see running Shadow Ball, Thunder Wave, or Dual Screens, at the expense of Defog, Roost, or better coverage? Memento is nice on paper but only really pays off every few attempts and really it wants to be able to Memento against a lot of things that are faster and usually revenge it like Lopunny and Weavile to support something else bulky in which case it still wants Healing Wish instead. The only 'unpredictable' factor there is the possibility that it might be running both HP Fire and Surf/EQ as most people first assume it's running at least one utility or Roost, but even scarf/specs misses out on half the point if it's not running Trick and who the heck wants their so-called S rank mon to be forced into being locked into a weak EQ or HP Fire when that coverage is for early wall breaking not cleaning... And LO running 4 attacking moves definitely isn't S-rank worthy either when it's just another attacker thats outclassed by others like LO Alakazam which is just plain stronger and faster (all the advantage Latios has here comes in switch-in opportunities), and Gengar which gets all it's coverage without running out of moveslots, better STABs and better utility outside of defog...

Yeah Latios isn't S rank imo

 

[Martin]

The thing is that Latios is a very versatile mon. Sure, you can look at one set (LO+3 attacks) and shove it aside for being very predictable, but honestly looking at Latios in a vacuum like that doesn't work. Between LO+3 attacks, LO+2 attacks, CM and less common/more team-specific sets like 4 attacks, one-STAB, Choice Scarf or even that crappy Specs set which was good on one team ever, it is actually one of the hardest things to prepare for when all things are considered. Sure, you can praise it for being the best utility mon for offense, but to do so would only cover a third of its potential roles. Sure, the Pursuit weakness sucks ass, but in the great scheme of things this is managable through smart play and predicting when your opponent is going to expect another and play accordingly. Not to mention that in order to trap Latios the switch-ins need to sustain a large amount of usually-irrecoverable damage in the process - especially in Bisharp's case. Given that the only really consistent stops are ScarfTar and AV Gross, it says a lot about its effectiveness in the meta at this time.

Personally, I am on the fence because, while I understand why it was nommed up, I don't feel like it is three subranks better than Starmie and Latias honestly, although that may just be testament that at least one of those is ranked too low (probably Starmie).

 

[Puralux]

Presence of pursuit trappers isn’t a factor that doesn’t make Latios worth of S rank. Some of them can switch in, but if they do, they will receive a ton of damage that, very likely, will make them: incapable of switching in again, in range of other teammates or vulnerable to hazards. All of those trappers still are not guaranteed to succesfully trap and kill latios, because they are reliant in 50/50 to trap him, as pursuit doesn’t ohko (and doesn’t 2hko if used by an AV Metagross). Not to mention that pursuit is a very predictable move in a movepool and the latios user can make a lot of things to avoid getting trapped. The presence of those pursuit trappers (or using pursuit in that specific mons) are, partly, a result of Latios’s centralization, and that doesn’t make Latios not s-rank worthy because:

If Y are used to hold off X, X or X’s team can still use strategies, counters, checks or lures to take advantage of Y.
X in this case is Latios.
Y in this case are the common checks or counters to Latios.

Strategies includes using them to setup, putting hazard pressure, doing smart switches and decisions, and deceiving your opponent by causing him to fall into your trap. That’s usually how centralization works.. i think?

 

[henry]

I really don't like some of the changes made in the last slate, but I guess they can't change immediately.

WHY should latios move up to S? how was this even brought up? has latios actually gotten better now than it was in the past 6+ months its been A+ rank? I see no justifiable reason that latios is better than it was before. it would actually be easier to argue it is worse with insanely high ttar use, hoopa-u gaining traction, tornt being as popular as it is, manaphy becoming less popular, trouble with checking scarf keldeo late game, etc... every post about latios just explains the reason it was A+. no recent improvements (assuming they even exist, i guess) were brought up, instead just regurgitation of that it can run EQ and CM and HP fire to beat its counters!!!

seriously, no one has outlined why it deserves S as opposed to why it didn't 3 months ago, so i don't see how this is even a discussion point.

 

[Mr.Goxel]

Presence of pursuit trappers isn’t a factor that doesn’t make Latios worth of S rank. Some of them can switch in, but if they do, they will receive a ton of damage that, very likely, will make them: incapable of switching in again, in range of other teammates or vulnerable to hazards. All of those trappers still are not guaranteed to succesfully trap and kill latios, because they are reliant in 50/50 to trap him, as pursuit doesn’t ohko (and doesn’t 2hko if used by an AV Metagross). Not to mention that pursuit is a very predictable move in a movepool and the latios user can make a lot of things to avoid getting trapped. The presence of those pursuit trappers (or using pursuit in that specific mons) are, partly, a result of Latios’s centralization, and that doesn’t make Latios not s-rank worthy because:

If Y are used to hold off X, X or X’s team can still use strategies, counters, checks or lures to take advantage of Y.
X in this case is Latios.
Y in this case are the common checks or counters to Latios.

Strategies includes using them to setup, putting hazard pressure, doing smart switches and decisions, and deceiving your opponent by causing him to fall into your trap. That’s usually how centralization works.. i think?

If u did calcs on that u must have been wrong cuz the most prominent pursuit trapper Ttar can switch in and kill latios ez.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 185-218 (54.2 - 63.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Before u go ahead and say its a 2 hit ko well no cuz latios' special attack gets cut in half after the first hit guaranteeing the kill on him cuz pursuit is a guaranteed 2 hit ko and ttar can take 3 hits from draco meteor before dying

Also I'd like to ask about Clefable cuz i haven't seen anyone bring that up and actually can check latios to an extent by stalling out life orb damage with soft boiled calm mind combo.

252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 172 Def Clefable: 179-212 (45.4 - 53.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

magic guard btw.

 

[Anacleto]

Wait why the feck did Manaphy drop? Is there any concrete evidence it's becoming less common? Because in my experience it's as threatening as ever

'Balance teams are putting scarfers and faster mons to keep it in check' yeah in most cases those are piss weak mons which can't even kill Mana in one move unless they pack stab super effective moves... and most of the times they don't enjoy switching in a stab scald because of poor bulk on average plus the risk of a burn.

Manaphy is not dead weight vs hyper offense either. While it's true that its sweeping opportunities in these matchups are close to zero, thanks to its ridicolous bulk its still an excellent pivot and can throw punches into those weak (on average) sweepers.

What bugs me is the fact that no discussion whatsoever was held on this thread regardin manaphy so i start questioning the point of this thread lol