Pursuit might actually be a better thing for slower pokes or even pranksters!
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VoltTurn Mayhem
- Thread starter Rumors
- Start date
Pursuit can work as a surprise. Otherwise, your opponent won't lead with trappable mons. And they get to switch after each move, so you can't pursuit trap them by switching or saccing.
What works is either saccing a mon to hazards, or switching into eject button on attacks, or magic bounce on status moves like defog.
What works is either saccing a mon to hazards, or switching into eject button on attacks, or magic bounce on status moves like defog.
It works the same way on cart. Eject button activation stops the switching of u-turn/volt switch.
Not sure how long until it's added to the op, but here's the viability ratings:
VT Mayhem Viability Ratings.
(As always, this can be selected and copied 1:1 to a smogon post, except for the scrollable box.)
Credit goes to Chopin Alkaninoff who started it and made / still makes the final calls. And to Phippsy, Tehy, Grum23, me, and Quantum Tesseract for contributing.
Edit: Oops, don't want to go stealing likes from Chopin.
Please go and like his post here, rather than mine. I just did the formatting and helped organize it.
VT Mayhem Viability Ratings.
(As always, this can be selected and copied 1:1 to a smogon post, except for the scrollable box.)
Credit goes to Chopin Alkaninoff who started it and made / still makes the final calls. And to Phippsy, Tehy, Grum23, me, and Quantum Tesseract for contributing.
Edit: Oops, don't want to go stealing likes from Chopin.
Please go and like his post here, rather than mine. I just did the formatting and helped organize it.
Last edited:
Obligatory renom of Shedinja for B.
Its just me- don't worry :P.
if im running choice scarf on latios, should i run modest or timid nature?
Ive found both to be very effective with draco meteor, as it hits really hard, but sometimes im missing the extra speed, or the extra damage, usually meaning that one of my mons takes a good deal of damage if it doesnt KO, or if it's too slow, latios gets KO'd
Also, ive noticed that bisharp is actually pretty useful. Stab sucker punch and pursuit is pretty good, and with a choice band, it hits really hard, based off my experiences. I personally think it should be ranked a little higher on the viability rankings, but thats probably just me
Ive found both to be very effective with draco meteor, as it hits really hard, but sometimes im missing the extra speed, or the extra damage, usually meaning that one of my mons takes a good deal of damage if it doesnt KO, or if it's too slow, latios gets KO'd
Also, ive noticed that bisharp is actually pretty useful. Stab sucker punch and pursuit is pretty good, and with a choice band, it hits really hard, based off my experiences. I personally think it should be ranked a little higher on the viability rankings, but thats probably just me
i've seen torn-t a few times and it hasn't done much
well OK i just lost to it, but only because it dodged an icicle crash, and what it mostly did before that was nothing. so, what does it do and why should I use it?
The problem with scarf latios is the same reason Slaking is rated C-: Protect and Fake out are everywhere.
While you can predict which mons are going to have fake out, protect can be on almost anything. And Latios is a scarf user that, when the opponent knows what it's locked into, can easily be switched into with immunities, losing your momentum.
While it is the fastest defogger, its offensive type coverage is bad. You want something with a stab that no immunities exist for.
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As far as Torn-t goes, I believe that regenerator is a generally good ability in this. It has a good speed tier and hits hard, but lacks priority moves; and most of its primary moves have bad accuracy. This is a problem in VT, because a miss prevents you from switching; losing momentum. Perhaps Air Slash or Acrobatics can be used to reduce the issue with hurricane.
While you can predict which mons are going to have fake out, protect can be on almost anything. And Latios is a scarf user that, when the opponent knows what it's locked into, can easily be switched into with immunities, losing your momentum.
While it is the fastest defogger, its offensive type coverage is bad. You want something with a stab that no immunities exist for.
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As far as Torn-t goes, I believe that regenerator is a generally good ability in this. It has a good speed tier and hits hard, but lacks priority moves; and most of its primary moves have bad accuracy. This is a problem in VT, because a miss prevents you from switching; losing momentum. Perhaps Air Slash or Acrobatics can be used to reduce the issue with hurricane.
Ok. Because the Viability Rankings without names are kind of hard to read (sorry OrdA), I'll repost here and name each of the sprites so that it's much more readable. This is the copy paste of this.
Reserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the VM metagame. These Pokemon are usually exemplary at maintaining momentum while applying damage, wearing down and straight out removing threats with their heavy hitting, or counterleading and stealing momentum from a significant portion of the VM meta. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are often hard to exploit due to their numerous strengths.
Mega Lopunny
Mega Pinsir
Mega Sableye
A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the VM metagame, and are good at maintaining momentum while dealing damage, wearing down or straight out removing threats with direct or indirect damage and counterleading or stealing momentum from a good portion of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
A+
Lucario
Dragonite
Klefki
Alomomola
Heatran
Mega Metagross
Talonflame
A
Skarmory
Sylveon
Starmie
Garchomp
A-
Thundurus
Mega Absol
Weavile
Porygon-Z
Slowbro
Azumarill
Scizor
Mega Scizor
Mega Diancie
B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the VM metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+
Keldeo
Mega Banette
Mega Charizard Y
Tyranitar
Latios
Jirachi
Victini
Infernape
Arcanine
Entei
B
Crawdaunt
Ambipom
Excadrill
Gengar
Latias
Breloom
Slowking
Tangrowth
B-
Amoonguss
Bisharp
Shedinja
Landorus-Therian
Toxicroak
Chandelure
Rhyperior
Hitmontop
Kyurem-Black
Mega Gardevoir
C Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the VT metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
C+
Liepard
Hoopa-Unbound
Whimsicott
Ferrothorn
Persian
Sableye
Magcargo
C
Alakazam
Espeon
Togekiss
Kangaskhan
C-
Slaking
Voltturn Mayhem Viability Rankings
Credits to OrdA, tehy, Grum23, Phippsy, Quantum Tesseract for helping.
S RankReserved for Pokemon that are amazing in the VM metagame. These Pokemon are usually exemplary at maintaining momentum while applying damage, wearing down and straight out removing threats with their heavy hitting, or counterleading and stealing momentum from a significant portion of the VM meta. Their use has low risk involved and high reward exerted. Pokemon in this rank have very few flaws that are often hard to exploit due to their numerous strengths.
A Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are fantastic in the VM metagame, and are good at maintaining momentum while dealing damage, wearing down or straight out removing threats with direct or indirect damage and counterleading or stealing momentum from a good portion of the metagame. These Pokemon require less support than most others to be used effectively and have few flaws that can easily be overlooked when compared to their positive traits.
A+
A
A-
B Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that are great in the VM metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than those above them that affect how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential.
B+
B
B-
C Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the VT metagame, but have just as many notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective. Pokemon from this rank tend to face a lot of competition with the more commonly used Pokemon.
C+
C
C-
Tornadus-Therian's primary value is as a fast Regenerator.
I personally don't even run a STAB on it, as they are indeed both inaccurate and anyway Knock Off/Superpower/Heat Wave/Protect has been much more useful to me.
... also, I have no idea how one deals with Fake Out+Feint Mega Sableye. I loathe the thing.
I personally don't even run a STAB on it, as they are indeed both inaccurate and anyway Knock Off/Superpower/Heat Wave/Protect has been much more useful to me.
... also, I have no idea how one deals with Fake Out+Feint Mega Sableye. I loathe the thing.
Have your hazard setter be something that can deal substantial damage to it (like Heatran, Garchomp, Klefki). It can't possibly switch in whenever it wants to block hazards -- taking 35% from Tankchomp's Earthquake on the switch is a cool prospect when said Tankchomp gets forced out afterwards, but if chomp immediately pivots out to a Fairy-type, Mega Sableye won't have time to recover. Mega Sableye users get a very limited number of mispredicts when using it because of its low speed and lack of passive recovery, so running hazard setters that it can't freely switch into is a good way to force it between a rock and a hard place.
Flash Fire users, your own Magic Bounce user, and Mew all dissuade Will-o-Wisp, which further limits Mega Sableye's options and utility. Mega Lopunny can click Fake Out first, though it only switches in on Knock Off and Recover. Ghost-types hate Knock Off and (save Chandelure) aren't fond of Will-o-Wisp, but Mega Sableye users can+should be wary of Faking Out in their presence. An itemless Talonflame set with Protect+WoW+Roost+Acrobatics is basically indifferent to anything Mega Sableye does, and most of its checks are slower than it, so it can fast-pivot back out if it needs to.
That's what comes to mind at the moment.
Mega Lopunny, Kangaskhan, Chandelure and Gengar can counterlead against Fake out + Feint Sableye without getting into 50/50s.
Mold Breaker users can get stealth rocks up without 50/50s, but things like Skarmory are safe switch ins since they underspeed and can press defog after rocks go up, gaining momentum from your attempt at getting hazards.
Mega Diancie is a rock setter that strongly dissuades Mega Sableye and Absol from coming in.
Mold Breaker users can get stealth rocks up without 50/50s, but things like Skarmory are safe switch ins since they underspeed and can press defog after rocks go up, gaining momentum from your attempt at getting hazards.
Mega Diancie is a rock setter that strongly dissuades Mega Sableye and Absol from coming in.
Slaking C - -> C
I actually don't see why this is ranked in C-. Being able to spam Banded STAB giga impact making it hard for things to switch in (but it's voltturn mayhem so eh) The only thing that really can switch in are bulky steels which usually get destroyed (baring ferro and skarmory) but the thing is it also has a wide move pull (Gunk shot, EQ, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm, Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Shadow Claw, Rock slide) making it much harder for pokemon to resist it's attacks. Truant is also canceled out due the voltturn effect (obviously). Ghosts might be able to switch in (MEGA SAB) really easily so that's a downside and predicting wrong can be a huge loss. Pair slaking with the right support the thing can actually be pretty strong.
I actually don't see why this is ranked in C-. Being able to spam Banded STAB giga impact making it hard for things to switch in (but it's voltturn mayhem so eh) The only thing that really can switch in are bulky steels which usually get destroyed (baring ferro and skarmory) but the thing is it also has a wide move pull (Gunk shot, EQ, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch, Hammer Arm, Play Rough, Sucker Punch, Shadow Claw, Rock slide) making it much harder for pokemon to resist it's attacks. Truant is also canceled out due the voltturn effect (obviously). Ghosts might be able to switch in (MEGA SAB) really easily so that's a downside and predicting wrong can be a huge loss. Pair slaking with the right support the thing can actually be pretty strong.
Some points about Slaking:
I haven't played this enough to say whether I think its ranking is correct, but yeah.
Basically, Slaking is the worst ranked mon in this OM because Fake Out and Protect are very common.
While you can predict what is running Fake Out, virtually anything that's not choiced can run Protect; making it very difficult to even counterlead with, let alone lead.
Slaking is a beginners' trap in this metagame, and the sole reason it's ranked at all is so anyone looking for it can see it's not good.
While you can predict what is running Fake Out, virtually anything that's not choiced can run Protect; making it very difficult to even counterlead with, let alone lead.
Slaking is a beginners' trap in this metagame, and the sole reason it's ranked at all is so anyone looking for it can see it's not good.
I understand the fake out issue but it can just switch out with protect (Although, it's still a bit risky)
I mean I get why it's C- but don't you think it's a bit to low?
It can work well with the right support (Needs a lot of it though)
Honestly, it sounds like it's in the right place, especially with how much it's crippled by Fake Out and Protect.
Now, what I'm curious about is how Magcargo made the rankings. Granted, I've not gotten to play much because of Real Life™ and me having my hand in way too many things, so I'm a low ladder scrub in this meta and I'm probably missing the big, obvious reasons.
Well, I kind of question Magcargo at first. It's niche is tanking Fake outs and Giga Impacts and burning them with Flame Body.
what kind of set should i run on Klefki?
right now i'm running
Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Protect
- Thunder Wave
- Light Screen
- Reflect
is dual screens useful in this meta? i mean, it's definitely useful since my other teammates are kind of frail, but i dont know if it's worth running
what would be a better set for it? thanks
right now i'm running
Klefki @ Light Clay
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Bold Nature
- Protect
- Thunder Wave
- Light Screen
- Reflect
is dual screens useful in this meta? i mean, it's definitely useful since my other teammates are kind of frail, but i dont know if it's worth running
what would be a better set for it? thanks
Magcargo is surprisingly bulky, and is able to spread Burns on Pokemon otherwise extremely difficult to land a Burn on, like Mega Lopunny, thanks to Flame Body, severely impairing Fake Out shenanigans. The few other Pokemon with both Flame Body and some form of recovery aren't nearly as bulky, and lack a resistance to Normal.
The thing about the Fake Out+Feint set is that it's basically impossible to get a counter in on it. That's tricky at the best of times in the meta, but the Fake Out+Feint set is particularly obnoxious. Sure, I can get hazards up and wear down the team, but getting hazards up isn't my issue -my issue is Mega Sableye chipping my team and bringing in optimal answers to whatever I've got up, often for free on Mega Sableye's part. (Whether through Fake Out or predicting a Protect and Feinting) Feint doesn't even make contact!
Ghosts obviously can switch in on both moves, but most Ghosts have sustainability issues, and for instance Chandelure acting as a hard stop to everything short of Foul Play Mega Sableye doesn't work so well if Stealth Rock is up.
Mega Sableye doesn't even need all that many opportunities to recover if it's just not taking damage in the first place.
It's not the sort of thing that overtly wins matches, mind, and if the rest of its team is dismantled it's easily slain, but it's an incredibly obnoxious utility build.
The thing about the Fake Out+Feint set is that it's basically impossible to get a counter in on it. That's tricky at the best of times in the meta, but the Fake Out+Feint set is particularly obnoxious. Sure, I can get hazards up and wear down the team, but getting hazards up isn't my issue -my issue is Mega Sableye chipping my team and bringing in optimal answers to whatever I've got up, often for free on Mega Sableye's part. (Whether through Fake Out or predicting a Protect and Feinting) Feint doesn't even make contact!
Ghosts obviously can switch in on both moves, but most Ghosts have sustainability issues, and for instance Chandelure acting as a hard stop to everything short of Foul Play Mega Sableye doesn't work so well if Stealth Rock is up.
Mega Sableye doesn't even need all that many opportunities to recover if it's just not taking damage in the first place.
It's not the sort of thing that overtly wins matches, mind, and if the rest of its team is dismantled it's easily slain, but it's an incredibly obnoxious utility build.
To keep this thread alive, there are some nominations from the VR team. Agree or disagree? Post your comments.
Scizor -> A
Mega Absol -> A
Azumarill -> B+
Scizor -> A
Mega Absol -> A
Azumarill -> B+