Diglett has been moved to S.
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Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0
- Thread starter tazz
- Start date
I moved Honedge to B- because why the fuck wasn't it already B-? Drifloon was also moved to A+.
I would also like to propose that we move Cacnea, Grimer, Helioptile, Litleo, Oddish, Piplup, Shroomish, Skiddo, and Voltorb from D > Smog Frog. If super needed I can go into further detail, but I just don't think these mons need to be ranked. Whatever niche they have is either performed better by another mon or is just unnecessary for our metagame.
Expect more changes to come because there's other shit that needs to be moved and still hasn't yet.
I would also like to propose that we move Cacnea, Grimer, Helioptile, Litleo, Oddish, Piplup, Shroomish, Skiddo, and Voltorb from D > Smog Frog. If super needed I can go into further detail, but I just don't think these mons need to be ranked. Whatever niche they have is either performed better by another mon or is just unnecessary for our metagame.
Expect more changes to come because there's other shit that needs to be moved and still hasn't yet.
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Hey don't diss my boy cacnea
It's actually got a nice movepool, with Spikes, recovery, and priority in Sucker Punch, and some decent coverage options in Drain Punch and Thunder Punch. It also hits some nice stat benchmarks (22/14/12 bulk with 17 Attack), and has an awesome ability in Water Absorb (this and Sucker Punch are its' niche over Chespin.) It's not particularly good, but it's certainly not smog frog.
It's actually got a nice movepool, with Spikes, recovery, and priority in Sucker Punch, and some decent coverage options in Drain Punch and Thunder Punch. It also hits some nice stat benchmarks (22/14/12 bulk with 17 Attack), and has an awesome ability in Water Absorb (this and Sucker Punch are its' niche over Chespin.) It's not particularly good, but it's certainly not smog frog.
Also Grimer, despite being bad, is 10 times as good as Pokemon like Piplup and Litleo. Trubbish doesn't truly outclass it because Grimer does have a niche in being stronger, having priority, and being much bulkier, even if it doesn't have Recycle or hazards.
Similarly Skiddo has a niche on webs teams that need an answer to Snivy, and Skiddo can provide that with its own form of recovery, Bulk Up for sweeping, Sap Sipper (making it immune to spore / leaf storm / giga drain) and decent enough bulk. I know that Rowan has used it effectively, which imo is fine enough for showing its worth.
Dwebble to B
We all know what Dwebble does at this point, but the fact remains that it's not very good at its job. With the surge in onix usage and with the consistency that spinners have been performing, the suicide lead role of Dwebble isn't too good, and hasn't been for a while. It's generally an eh use of a teamslot, and demands heavier team support than you'd want from what is basically a purely support Pokemon.
The smash set suffers from what it always has, being fairly weak and stoppable even after a smash and not being as easy to set up as you'd want. It's stopped pretty hard by fighting types until they're weakened considerably, and can't set up on as many things as you want. It also really demands hazard support due to a weakness to Stealth Rock and sturdyjuice. Honestly I'd consider this the better set even with its flaws considering how ineffective the lead set is many matches, and Smash Dwebble fits in much better with B rank than B+.
We all know what Dwebble does at this point, but the fact remains that it's not very good at its job. With the surge in onix usage and with the consistency that spinners have been performing, the suicide lead role of Dwebble isn't too good, and hasn't been for a while. It's generally an eh use of a teamslot, and demands heavier team support than you'd want from what is basically a purely support Pokemon.
The smash set suffers from what it always has, being fairly weak and stoppable even after a smash and not being as easy to set up as you'd want. It's stopped pretty hard by fighting types until they're weakened considerably, and can't set up on as many things as you want. It also really demands hazard support due to a weakness to Stealth Rock and sturdyjuice. Honestly I'd consider this the better set even with its flaws considering how ineffective the lead set is many matches, and Smash Dwebble fits in much better with B rank than B+.
I completely agree with you on the shell smash part. Dwebble is a weak smash user. But Dwebble shouldn't be used as a shell smasher. He should be a suicide lead, and that job, he is the best in the tier at. Along with access to both rocks and spikes, Dwebble also has sturdy giving you an almost guaranteed to get you 2 layers of hazards when partnered with berry juice. Onix doesn't have spikes so no matter what you are only getting one layer up. Also you mention his weakness to rocks. This should not be a problem because if used the way he is used best, Dwebble will be the first pokemon you send out.
Also, Dwebble can be used as a reliable knock off user. Since its main set is berry juice plus sturdy, you can take a hit, knock off back, and still get up a layer of hazards or two before being taken out. This way, you can get cripple one of your opponents pokemon, and still get hazards up. The only mons Dwebble struggles with are taunt onix and the occasional taunt mienfoo, both of which are not seen that often.
Problem is Suicide leads in generally aren't all that useful anymore. Being the best at something with not much value isn't that great to rave about. Drilbur and Staryu are heavy offensive spinners who can threaten a lot of Pokemon and are still bulky enough to come in and spin throughout a match, Archen is fast and hits hard but with great utility as well, Vullaby is bulky as sin with a nasty ass BBird under it's belt if it wants. Even the more underrated spinners like Anorith or Pineco (lol) have decent utility. What I'm saying is that setting hazards and dying really isn't as useful, as unless you have a mad strong HO team that applies pressure every turn of a game it's very unlikely you'll keep your hazards down. Onix has the option of abusing it's high speed and defence to actual survive and take hits throughout a match so it's not strictly a suicide lead, while Dwebble has no say in the matter thanks to it's own weaknesses to hazards and subpar bulk.
Nominating Gastly from A+ ---> A
While there is no doubt that Gastly is one of the best mons in LC, I feel like A+ is a bit much. Gastly is unfortunately weak to the most spammed move in LC. Knock-off. Almost all mons that utilize knock off ohko gastly in one hit due to his crappy defenses. You could run focus sash (which is viable but barely) but then you are left with less power or less speed and an item that is easliy broken by hazards and faster or bulkier pokemon, so your gastly is about as helpful toward your team as Trump is going to be to America. Also if you are going to run focus sash, run it on abra who has better speed and special attack than gastly, equivalent defenses (not that that matters they both suck), and most importantly, doesnt take damage from hazards thanks to wonder guard.
Gastly also is beaten 1v1 by many of the other top pokemon in lc or most mons with knock off including mienfoo (eviolite or cs), porygon, abra, fletchling, drilbur, ponyta, vullaby, skrelp, croagunk, dwebble, larvesta, and elekid. Also other pokemon like scraggy or pawniard can win if a certain move is not being run.
Gastly is also vulnerable to sucker punch which can let him be beat by mons such as diglett and pawniard, but many gastly sets run substitute which can easily nullify that weakness if used properly, but it is still a weakness worth mentioning.
So lets breakdown the 2 most popular gastly sets. Choice scarf and life orb. Choice scarf gastly is most likely the fastest pokemon you will ever see in the metagame. This can be a big help to your team because this lets gastly beat alot of the mons mentioned above like elekid, ponyta, and certain abra sets. But this set still doesn't let gastly beat eviolite mienfoo, the most used mon in LC. Also after gastly gets locked into a move, it is very easy for your opponent to switch into a mon that can defeat gastly on the very next turn, especially when locked into the commenly resisted sludge bomb.
Considered to be the best gastly set, sub/destiny bond+life orb can be very dangerous if used correctly. ohkoing pawniard if running hp fighting and has a chance to ohko bulky mienfoo with dazziling gleam is no laughing matter. Also its a very good check to fairy types. All those strenghts however, don't make him invincible. Far from it in fact. Even with all that power, he loses speed compared to the CS set. This allows other scarfers like mienfoo, larvesta, magnemite and drilbur to outspeed and ohko gastly. with his low defenses (30 def, 35 spdef) let gastly be killed by neutral moves from strong pokemon like larvesta, vullaby (brave bird), and skrelp.
All in all gastly is a very good pokemon but is frankly overrated and doesnt deserve the A+ ranking that has been given to him. He is just too defensivly weak in a metagame where knock off is everywhere.
This was my first post so please try to be respectful when critiquing. I understand that many of you will have different opinions and I look forward to hearing your arguments of why gastly should stay. Thanks for reading.
First of all scarf gastly just doesn't exist. Also you mention how various things beat gastly 1v1 but that's not the point. It's job is to put tons of pressure on the other team and force switches and general blow holes for your win con. It has fantastic coverage and mind blowing power with LO and that's what makes it arguably the hardest mon to switch into outside of like LO crani and worthy of A+
I'd like to nominate Vulpix, Houndour, and Shellos to move down one subrank.
Vulpix still does the job it always has, but with Diglett staying that job is compromised to the point that it should move down. It's still essential to sun teams, but sun as a playstyle isn't nearly as effective as it was back when Vulpix moved to A-. The way that Vulpix manages to fit on non-sun teams is as a wallbreaker, but with Diglett remaining this niche is an issue. Even if it manages to score a KO, Diglett can come in fairly easily and remove it. It's still a fine option and sun is still fairly dangerous as a playstyle, but as a whole Vulpix is more a B+ mon than an A-. Feel free to debate if this means Bellsprout should go to B if pix goes to B+
Houndour's still decently threatening on paper, but it's not exactly a huge threat in practice. While 17 speed isn't slow, considering how frail Houndour is and how common faster mons and scarfers have become since it moved up, Houndour is unlikely to perform as more than a wallbreaker. It suffers from similar issues to Vulpix in this regard, and even some competition. While having Dark Pulse STAB and Sucker Punch is very helpful, sun means Vulpix can do much more damage with fire type attacks and do absurd things like survive ScarfChou's Hydro Pump without rocks while Houndour cannot. That's not to say that Houndour is bad, it's still fairly strong and can force 50/50s with Diglett due to Sucker Punch, but at the same time Houndour's been far more effective on paper than in practice. I cannot remember the last time I fought somebody using a Houndour, and this isn't the case for anything else in A- except maybe Pumpkaboo-Super. It should be B+
There's not all that much to say about Shellos. It's a knock off absorber that's often forced into using recover every time it comes in and has incredibly little offensive presence. It can be annoying to break sometimes, but it's never a huge threat. There's some interesting gimmicky options, like Mirror Coat, but these are relatively niche and give up some important move for Shellos. It fits in better with the stuff in C+ than B- simply due to how ineffective it usually ends up being in the grand scheme of a match.
Vulpix still does the job it always has, but with Diglett staying that job is compromised to the point that it should move down. It's still essential to sun teams, but sun as a playstyle isn't nearly as effective as it was back when Vulpix moved to A-. The way that Vulpix manages to fit on non-sun teams is as a wallbreaker, but with Diglett remaining this niche is an issue. Even if it manages to score a KO, Diglett can come in fairly easily and remove it. It's still a fine option and sun is still fairly dangerous as a playstyle, but as a whole Vulpix is more a B+ mon than an A-. Feel free to debate if this means Bellsprout should go to B if pix goes to B+
Houndour's still decently threatening on paper, but it's not exactly a huge threat in practice. While 17 speed isn't slow, considering how frail Houndour is and how common faster mons and scarfers have become since it moved up, Houndour is unlikely to perform as more than a wallbreaker. It suffers from similar issues to Vulpix in this regard, and even some competition. While having Dark Pulse STAB and Sucker Punch is very helpful, sun means Vulpix can do much more damage with fire type attacks and do absurd things like survive ScarfChou's Hydro Pump without rocks while Houndour cannot. That's not to say that Houndour is bad, it's still fairly strong and can force 50/50s with Diglett due to Sucker Punch, but at the same time Houndour's been far more effective on paper than in practice. I cannot remember the last time I fought somebody using a Houndour, and this isn't the case for anything else in A- except maybe Pumpkaboo-Super. It should be B+
There's not all that much to say about Shellos. It's a knock off absorber that's often forced into using recover every time it comes in and has incredibly little offensive presence. It can be annoying to break sometimes, but it's never a huge threat. There's some interesting gimmicky options, like Mirror Coat, but these are relatively niche and give up some important move for Shellos. It fits in better with the stuff in C+ than B- simply due to how ineffective it usually ends up being in the grand scheme of a match.
Scarfed gastly does exist. It is rare, but if you are a common LC player you will see it every once in awhile. Also with all those pokemon who beat it, odds are you are going to have one of them on your team. Im not saying you are going to get off scot-free from an encounter with LO gastly. You will probably lose one of your mons and it might be an important one. But after you get the free switch in, gastly isnt a major threat anymore to a good amount of the most used mons in the teir. Getting one or 2 ko's per game at most is not worthy of an A+ rank.
How is getting 1-2 KOs a game not A+ when Abra is ranked A+ for the same reason. Gastly's insane firepower can easily clean late game with 2 powerful STABs, and solid filler moves in HP Fighting, DGleam, DBond, sucker punch, and sub allow it to fulfill a decent amount of roles and pick what beats it. Also, scarf gastly is bad, never seen except on low ladder lol.
Abra is faster and if you run LO it hits harder than gastly. If both pokemon are used for the same thing, then abra is definitely the
I've got absolutely no idea what you're taking about, and i don't doubt that you're in the same boat lmao. Gastly finds it very, very easy to come in and crack open defensive cores or simply revenge kill. I'm very curious to know what mons actually beat Gastly, because outside of scarfed mons, Abra, Fletch, and Ponyta, you'd have one hell of a time trying to threaten something like Gastly when it's in such a high speed tier.
Abra and Gastly have vastly different coverage. I'd actually argue that Gastly is better at its job than Abra, as Gastly's typing allows it to come in on far more than Abra could hope for.
No offense dude, but it seems to me that you lack experience. People who use Substitute don't use it with the intention that it should last, they use it so the player can nail the switch twice with the proper move. No player is going to be dumb enough to try switching Gastly on Knock Off users unless they knew for sure that the next move would be fighting coverage. Lastly, guaranteed kills would be a very good reason to move something to A+. Gastly's consistency in getting those kills is pretty much unmatched, barring S mons like Diggy or Abra.
Edit: Smh Abra's not S-Rank but pory is. That dumb switch back to having a single S rank still throws me off.
Im trying to say that gastly is too weak for his subs to stay up. In order for his subs to be effective, gastly has to use them either when you know your oppenent isnt going to attack. But if your oppenent uses nearly any attacking move, gastlys sub will break and you basically just did 25% damage to yourself. Im not saying sub is a bad move it is very good, but gastly's is especially frail.
Also in a previous post which should be about 16 posts up, I list off a bunch of pokemon that beat gastly. And what moves (besides fighting and normal type moves) can gastly switch into that abra can't.
Gastly can switch into Foongus running anything except Stun Spore once something is asleep. It can also do this more than once. While Abra can technically switch into it as well, it loses its sash which is incredibly inconvenient. Basically Gastly can take any Poison-type attack very easily even with its low bulk due to a 4x resistance, as well as essentially all Grass-type attacks. For example, LO Gastly can switch into +0 Snivy Leaf Storm, while LO Abra stands a 50% chance of being OHKOed. Granted you wouldn't really want to switch them in without a care due to glare, but a predicted Leaf Storm is eaten by Gastly much more easily than Abra (also Gastly can OHKO Snivy while LO Abra cannot from full). Gastly can also switch in on Spritzee and threaten it while Abra cannot.
Gastly has a much better defensive typing than Abra, even though its stats let it down a lot. It's not easy to get in, but at least Gastly can switch into moves while Abra generally cannot for fear of losing its sash. It's not a perfect trade off, but Gastly's much easier and safer to get in compared to Abra, despite the disadvantages it comes with.
Abra can't really switch into much at all, since sash wants to be at full HP and LO doesn't have the bulk or typing to come in versus weak attackers more than once. This means it is limited to the point where it can only come in after a KO or on a double switch.
Gastly, on the other hand, has quite a few notable resists and immunities that can be used to bring it in safely vs a myriad of threats. It's typing and ability grant it 3 immunities (normal, fighting, ground) and 4 resistances (fairy, grass, poison, bug). Obviously, there will always be risk when pivoting something as frail as Gastly into a predicted resist or immunity. However, Gastly has an easy time coming in against most checks to fighting types (Foongus, Cottonee, Spritzee, Snubbull are all relatively safe switch-ins), as well as predicted Earthquakes, Drain Punches, Tri Attacks, etc when the situation calls for it. Bluntly speaking, it is much easier to get Gastly into play than Abra because of its typing.
edit at below: chill Star. no need to start a flame war over something so trivial. you're not helping him or yourself with that post.
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right I forgot I don't play lc. (dude even my avatar has my spl team (WHICH I PLAYED LC FOR) on it) And you are turning this into a stupid circle jerk when we've made this pretty clear that gastly is A+ for being a frickin nuke.
Im sry you are getting so upset. I didn't mean to insult you at any point. When I mentioned a "common LC player" i meant that if you did enough battles, you would see scarfed gastly every once in awhile. Also I realize now that the main reason that i am arguing against gastly is that my team has no trouble at all beating it since i have fletch, scarfed mienfoo, drilbur, and 2 psychic users.
if you were a common lc player you would know that he taught me, aka jesus, everything i know. hes basically john the baptist.
I hate to bring religion into this, but you know that John the Baptist didn't teach Jesus how to baptize people right?
OK it's time for me to step in.
Dude, you're arguing with people who seem much more experienced than you and who seem to have you in the facts in a number of areas. For example, substitute gastly is a commonly used and good set. I think you've reached the end of the argument, maybe talk to them more personally if you have to. And in future resist the urge to meet shitpost with shitpost n.n
I nvr said it was a bad set. I'm just saying it has flaws. Also in a previous post I acknowledge the fact that most of the time everyone else is right when I say why I'm arguing against gastly