Dragontamer, my kangaskahn packs a roar off a higher speed than your stallrein ^3^
but if your stallrein was your last pokemon... yeah.
I'd lose.
but if your stallrein was your last pokemon... yeah.
I'd lose.
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
- Thread starter alex
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Hmm, with drain punch + roar Kangaskahn might be the closest thing to a true counter to Walrein in UU. You'll probably win in the 1v1 case at the end because you'll always recover off the surf with drain punch. Lefties would neutralize hail.
I better take note of that...
Okay, so leftovers + roar + drain punch Kangaskahn might work... testing is required though. (I thought hammer arm / bullet punch Metagross would work >_> but it didn't) But I'd argue that even if it is a true counter, it still would overcentralize the metagame on Walrein counters. I doubt that typical walrein counters would actually be useful on a team outside of countering walrein.
I better take note of that...
Okay, so leftovers + roar + drain punch Kangaskahn might work... testing is required though. (I thought hammer arm / bullet punch Metagross would work >_> but it didn't) But I'd argue that even if it is a true counter, it still would overcentralize the metagame on Walrein counters. I doubt that typical walrein counters would actually be useful on a team outside of countering walrein.
On the note of Drain Punch Hitmonchan gets a 108 power Drain Punch which is quite a lovely thought. Healing + massive damage all in one.
Anyway what can counter Walrein depends entirely on its offensive move whether Blizzard or Surf.
Surf will do very neglectable damage to Muk who can Brick Break or Fpunch, can Taunt to deal with Sub/Protect/Roar and also soaks up Toxic Spikes. Toxicroak isn't half bad either given if you run Surf instead of Blizzard it can force you to switch or give you a mauling.
Noctowl is an actual counter against the Surf variation, once they know you don't have Blizzard it can Roost and outstall you with its premier special defense and immunity to Toxic Spikes. Altaria is also a viable counter against Surf varieties with Roost or Rest.
Blizzard variation however is abit harder to deal with however with Taunt Probopass being the
first thing to come to mind. Lapras and Walrein itself are technically counters.
Edit: Or as said you could just change the weather given Snover is dead the second it shows itself.
Anyway what can counter Walrein depends entirely on its offensive move whether Blizzard or Surf.
Surf will do very neglectable damage to Muk who can Brick Break or Fpunch, can Taunt to deal with Sub/Protect/Roar and also soaks up Toxic Spikes. Toxicroak isn't half bad either given if you run Surf instead of Blizzard it can force you to switch or give you a mauling.
Noctowl is an actual counter against the Surf variation, once they know you don't have Blizzard it can Roost and outstall you with its premier special defense and immunity to Toxic Spikes. Altaria is also a viable counter against Surf varieties with Roost or Rest.
Blizzard variation however is abit harder to deal with however with Taunt Probopass being the
first thing to come to mind. Lapras and Walrein itself are technically counters.
Edit: Or as said you could just change the weather given Snover is dead the second it shows itself.
Grumpig can also work as a decent counter to the Blizzard variation so long as the Toxic Spikes have been removed. A Calm Mind/Taunt setup in particular deals with Walrein with ease, effectively forcing it out of battle. No Weavile for revenge killing in UU either, whilst Sneasel's validity is still up for debate in the other thread.
It seems that there are quite a few counters to Stallrein in UU still, especially when you consider that there are far more viable Pokemon capable of absorbing the Toxic Spikes. Nevertheless, auto-Hail in UU is not something I'd like to see, given that it would force everyone to consider the threat of Stallrein when building their teams, thereby reducing variety, as well as pretty much confirming the BL status of Pokemon like Glaceon that benefit so much from the Hail.
Hail/Sandstorm teams have been shown to work just fine in OU, to the point where every other team on Shoddy relies on the weather. I really don't want to see the same pattern in UU.
It seems that there are quite a few counters to Stallrein in UU still, especially when you consider that there are far more viable Pokemon capable of absorbing the Toxic Spikes. Nevertheless, auto-Hail in UU is not something I'd like to see, given that it would force everyone to consider the threat of Stallrein when building their teams, thereby reducing variety, as well as pretty much confirming the BL status of Pokemon like Glaceon that benefit so much from the Hail.
Hail/Sandstorm teams have been shown to work just fine in OU, to the point where every other team on Shoddy relies on the weather. I really don't want to see the same pattern in UU.
Its far from unusual given lots of UU fill certain quirky niche's and given theres so many one always somehow accidentally fills the role without straying from what they normally do.
To be honest though Snover and Sneasel and the like should really be debated in the other topic.
IMO...if Snover is allowed in UU, then Walrein would probably end up being too strong for UU. Stallrein can be countered to an extent, but it's counters are somewhat shaky and often rely on the spikes being removed. Even if it was counterable, it'd probably still end up overcentralizing the game IMO, so...eh. Hard to know without testing it.
If Snover isn't allowed in UU, then I'm guessing that Walrein is probably fine for UU (it still has some reasons to possibly be BL, but eh). Before that, though, Lapras should probably be considered - it can pull off most of the sets Walrein can just as effectively (Lack of Earthquake hurts a Curse set, but it does get Ice Shard IIRC) and has a few other options like Dragon Dance. It also makes a better tank, with access to Boltbeam and Sing.
If Snover isn't allowed in UU, then I'm guessing that Walrein is probably fine for UU (it still has some reasons to possibly be BL, but eh). Before that, though, Lapras should probably be considered - it can pull off most of the sets Walrein can just as effectively (Lack of Earthquake hurts a Curse set, but it does get Ice Shard IIRC) and has a few other options like Dragon Dance. It also makes a better tank, with access to Boltbeam and Sing.
Just gonna throw Feraligatr's name into the pot and ask if anybody thinks he is worth discussing.
He's a tough bulky water with access to Swords Dance or Dragon Dance to boost his already high attack power. Crunch can flatten bulky psychics and physical Water STAB walks all over the common UU walls (Golem, Aggron, Probopass, yadda yadda). Consider the potential Torrent boost and throw in Ice Punch to 2HKO Meganium after a boost and you've got a really powerful Pokemon.
I'm struggling to think of something that can counter him if he dances on the switch...depends on the moveset really. Walrein can wall/phaze him, but can't do much damage in return. Feraligatr can also psuedo-Taunt him with a Roar of his own or smash him with SuperPower. Pelipper could stall him nicely with Roost, but doesn't wanna mess with Rock Slide.
Bulky Grasses could be a good bet, but even a Max HP Max Def Bold Meganium takes up to 73% from a Swords Dance Ice Punch. That's without Life Orb.
I think it's worth discussing anyway. Feraligatr will be a brilliant Pokemon in UU for sure, but could he be too brilliant?
He's a tough bulky water with access to Swords Dance or Dragon Dance to boost his already high attack power. Crunch can flatten bulky psychics and physical Water STAB walks all over the common UU walls (Golem, Aggron, Probopass, yadda yadda). Consider the potential Torrent boost and throw in Ice Punch to 2HKO Meganium after a boost and you've got a really powerful Pokemon.
I'm struggling to think of something that can counter him if he dances on the switch...depends on the moveset really. Walrein can wall/phaze him, but can't do much damage in return. Feraligatr can also psuedo-Taunt him with a Roar of his own or smash him with SuperPower. Pelipper could stall him nicely with Roost, but doesn't wanna mess with Rock Slide.
Bulky Grasses could be a good bet, but even a Max HP Max Def Bold Meganium takes up to 73% from a Swords Dance Ice Punch. That's without Life Orb.
I think it's worth discussing anyway. Feraligatr will be a brilliant Pokemon in UU for sure, but could he be too brilliant?
That's true, Quagsire can considered a counter, although it is worth mentioning that a Swords Dance Life Orb EQ is a 2HKO on Max HP Max Def Relaxed Quagsire, whereas the standard Quagsire's Earthquake deals a mere 25-30% to the standard 142 HP 0 Def Feraligatr.
Yawn or Encore could be helpful, and Counter could be a great surprise KO, but it could give him a free turn to Swords Dance again. The point is, he is far from a safe, clear-cut counter.
Yawn or Encore could be helpful, and Counter could be a great surprise KO, but it could give him a free turn to Swords Dance again. The point is, he is far from a safe, clear-cut counter.
Feraligatr possibly could be too powerful though in terms of clear cut direct counters it is definitely harder seeing it does not have the 4x weakness of Gyarados.
In terms of hazers though Blastoise with either Roar or Haze and maybe Yawn would be an rather large obstacle to the Dragon Dance variation but having Gyarados ver 1.5 is definitely something to think about. Against Swords Dance variation...well its not boosting speed so any good old electric/grass attack will send it packing.
In terms of hazers though Blastoise with either Roar or Haze and maybe Yawn would be an rather large obstacle to the Dragon Dance variation but having Gyarados ver 1.5 is definitely something to think about. Against Swords Dance variation...well its not boosting speed so any good old electric/grass attack will send it packing.
Yup, Blastoise sounds like the best bet. Good ol' Blastoise, I love it when he does something good. ^^
Although the SD version doesn't boost speed, it should be noted that he has a max speed of 280 to play around with, so shouldn't be considered a slowpoke. And 346 HP/202 Sp Def (standard Swords Dance set from analysis) means that it would take a 340 Special attack STAB Thunderbolt to guarantee an OHKO on him, although as low has 288 has a minute chance. Expert Belt/Life Orb etc should screw him over though, but his bulkiness shouldn't be overlooked.
His different dance styles is one of the main buggers about him, sorta reminiscent of Salamence's unpredictability. You switch in Raichu expecting a Swords Dance, but he Dragon Dances instead. *gulp*
Although the SD version doesn't boost speed, it should be noted that he has a max speed of 280 to play around with, so shouldn't be considered a slowpoke. And 346 HP/202 Sp Def (standard Swords Dance set from analysis) means that it would take a 340 Special attack STAB Thunderbolt to guarantee an OHKO on him, although as low has 288 has a minute chance. Expert Belt/Life Orb etc should screw him over though, but his bulkiness shouldn't be overlooked.
His different dance styles is one of the main buggers about him, sorta reminiscent of Salamence's unpredictability. You switch in Raichu expecting a Swords Dance, but he Dragon Dances instead. *gulp*
Yeah,Feraligatr has a base 100 defense though.
Oops,I read the title wrong.
I agree on Feraligatr on BL.It is basically mini Gyarados,but doesn't have those nice rsistances to be a BulkyGatr or whatever.
Feraligatr couldn't do much in OU.Battled one,and I even killed it with an HP Electric Modest Choice Scarf Exploud.Sad... :D
Oops,I read the title wrong.
I agree on Feraligatr on BL.It is basically mini Gyarados,but doesn't have those nice rsistances to be a BulkyGatr or whatever.
Feraligatr couldn't do much in OU.Battled one,and I even killed it with an HP Electric Modest Choice Scarf Exploud.Sad... :D
abomasnow
I think abomasnow should be UU. It's so weak. It's only got 60 base speed, which is just abysmal, and that huge list of weaknesses means it can easily be handled by a large number UU pokemon.
It's weaknesses are...
4x Fire
2x Flying
2x Poison
2x Steel
2x Rock
2x Bug
2x Fighting
and it's only resistances are Grass and Water unless I'm forgetting something. It's SO easy to kill, and it's not even that strong with only base 92 in it's attacking stats. Why is it BL? It makes no sense to me.
I think abomasnow should be UU. It's so weak. It's only got 60 base speed, which is just abysmal, and that huge list of weaknesses means it can easily be handled by a large number UU pokemon.
It's weaknesses are...
4x Fire
2x Flying
2x Poison
2x Steel
2x Rock
2x Bug
2x Fighting
and it's only resistances are Grass and Water unless I'm forgetting something. It's SO easy to kill, and it's not even that strong with only base 92 in it's attacking stats. Why is it BL? It makes no sense to me.
Two words: snow warning
This allows it to set up instant,infinite hail. That trait buffs it a lot. Without it, it would probably be UU.
With 0 Atk. EVs (I assume you're running a Sp. Wall here), Muk Brick Break does 21.63% - 25.48% to the standard Stallrein set. Not even a full chance to break the sub. Fire Punch hits Walrein for neutral, and thus does 10.82% - 12.74%. Remember, Walrein heals back 12.5% health each turn, so if you use Fire-punch, at the very best Muk will net 1 HP damage, and in the vast majority of cases Walrein will heal back more HP than it lost. After which, Walrein can use protect the next turn to heal back 12.5% more HP. So even without a sub, Walrein utterly walls Muk, with Brick Break on the average doing less than what Walrein will be healing from Ice Body.
In the best case, that is 252 Atk EVs and +Atk nature and leftovers/black sludge, Muk is hurting Walrein 29.57% - 34.86%. If Muk is choice banded (what the hell?), it is safe for Walrein to sub/protect and outstall him in the hail.
In addition, substitute blocks out Toxic and other status that Muk might be able to hit Walrein with, and with 15 base speed less, and with the typical Stallrein running speed EVs to outrun phazers, there is no way for Muk to really kill Stallrein.
What the hell kind of counter is that?
Neither can do anything about it however, as I can simply roar you away as you roost and force you to stall. Its like saying Blissey counters blissey. They don't. It just turns out to be a stallfest. However, I have the upperhand as I can always roar you out for spikes damage (Froslass can easily set up spikes, as well as take the very predictable fighting attacks)
Case in point: You're not forcing me out with Noctowl or Altaria, and I am forcing you out to potential spikes / stealth rocks damage with Roar.
I sub when the mach punch hits me. So after Mach Punch, walrein uses Sub again and is set up. When a pokemon is faster, all I have to do is sub when they attack, which keeps the sub up indefinitely.
Basically, if the sub is already up, Mach Punch hits the sub, and I immediately replace it.
Bulk Up is solved by roar.
Damage: 33.65% - 39.42%. From Technician Mach Punch with Leftovers. Obviously, dies to the hail if you add Choice Band.
Is Heatran REALLY OU? I never ran across any of them actually :\
Just because something has higher stats than Gengar doesn't mean it's BL. I'm sure there are probably several UU pokemon with higher stats than Gengar.
That said, though...now that I look at Feraligatr's complete movepool, he does seem like a candidate for BL (I'd forgotton it had SD). His speed is actually pretty good for UU, and with Swords Dance I don't think there's anything that can really effectively wall him (I was going to do some calcs for Ludicolo, but he's listed as BL currently). Also, Blastoise takes more than 50% from a SD'd Earthquake, and with no reliable form of recovery it's hard to call it a real counter.
Qft. It still has some merit even without hail and would be usable in UU, but Hail definitely pushes it up to BL.
And regarding Walrein...I stand by my previous statement. If Snover isn't allowed in UU, then Walrein could be either BL or UU. If Snover is UU, Walrein goes up to BL.
Lapras switches into a Waterfall, heals back 25% (aka, neutralizes Stealth Rocks if it is in). Lapras can then T-Bolt, Roar, or whatever while Feraligatr deals 37.07% - 43.75% with SD Earthquake... a 3-hit KO at best, not guarenteed with leftovers.
I mean hell, if Lapras switches in on Feraligatr's waterfall, it has enough time to start up a rain dance and then Thunder the hell out of Feraligatr.
Granted, Lapras is under consideration for BL status. But I'd say thats a true counter.
It learns superpower?
Well crap, that changes everything. >_>
*Checks movepool* Holy, Feraligatr's movepool is awesome. DD, SD, Superpower, Rock Slide, Waterfall, earthquake... Hell, a CB version probably will be too powerful. Gyarados doesn't even get a fighting attack o.O (Rock Smash does not count)
Well crap, that changes everything. >_>
*Checks movepool* Holy, Feraligatr's movepool is awesome. DD, SD, Superpower, Rock Slide, Waterfall, earthquake... Hell, a CB version probably will be too powerful. Gyarados doesn't even get a fighting attack o.O (Rock Smash does not count)
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