Resource VGC 16: Ask a Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer

[Misdreavus]

1. most groudon that are not paired with TR are jolly max speed because everyone else runs jolly max speed ~_~
2. definitely moody, the potential for the speed accuracy or evasion boosts can cheese a game that you had no business winning otherwise

Let's see here... standard 6 teams from Virginia Regionals:

1. Paul Chua: Own Tempo Smeargle, Timid Groudon
2. Alec Rubin: Moody Smeargle, Jolly Groudon
T4. Samuel Amity: Moody Smeargle, Jolly Groudon
T8. Kazi Rahman: Own Tempo Smeargle, Timid Groudon

Looks like people are split on Smeargle, but they all run +Speed Groudon.

After maxing Speed on Groudon, are there any important benchmarks, defensively or offensively (physically), that I should hit with the remaining EVs? I'd hate to have yet another Pokémon that's 252 (S)Atk / 252 Spe.

EDIT: Also, what does Standard 6 do against Trick Room teams when so many of its Pokémon invest in power and Speed?

 

[ProjectTitan313]

Might try out the format after all once I find a few legendaries.
Kinda wanted to try out Mega Metagross + Palkia + Primal Kyogre as a core, but I'm kinda confused on wtf to use for speed control and a Kyogre counter with no Uber slots since cress + Megagross screams "Please kill me with Gengar, Aegislash, or any Dark move" and Mega Kangaskhan kinda shits on all 3.
I guess what I'm asking is:
1) What kind of sets does Kyogre run?
2) How does one kill Kyogre?
3) Would Virizion be retarded? The core fears almost nothing from MegaMence. Crobat isn't doing much beyond shitting itself. Talonflame in Primordial Sea facepalms at the core.
4) Palkia's massive Fire/Water resists, combined with outrunning Rayquaza and nuking with Spacial Rend suggests that it beats RayOgre while Kyogre + MegaGross probably beats Pdon+Xern. I figure Palkia might actually be good?
5) Lustrous Orb or something else on Palkia? Lustrous Orb seems pretty good, spam Dragon while MegaGross handles any Fairy mon. Spam obnoxiously overpowered Hydro Pump in Rain too. Palkia's Hydro Pump:
Base * STAB * Rain * Orb
(110*1.5*1.5*1.2) = 297. Fuck that shit.

Oh and I SR'd a 31/31/26 or 27/31/31/31 Timid Palkia if anyone wants it / you guys want it for the next VGC tourney giveaway. -2 points of Def at level 50 doesn't really seem to affect it.

edit:

calcs

252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 124-147 (70.8 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Palkia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 124-148 (70.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's not making or breaking KO's either:

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 109-130 (66 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (27 Def IVs)
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 108-127 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (31 Def IVs)

 

[R-B-Y]

Might try out the format after all once I find a few legendaries.
Kinda wanted to try out Mega Metagross + Palkia + Primal Kyogre as a core, but I'm kinda confused on wtf to use for speed control and a Kyogre counter with no Uber slots since cress + Megagross screams "Please kill me with Gengar, Aegislash, or any Dark move" and Mega Kangaskhan kinda shits on all 3.
I guess what I'm asking is:
1) What kind of sets does Kyogre run?
2) How does one kill Kyogre?
3) Would Virizion be retarded? The core fears almost nothing from MegaMence. Crobat isn't doing much beyond shitting itself. Talonflame in Primordial Sea facepalms at the core.
4) Palkia's massive Fire/Water resists, combined with outrunning Rayquaza and nuking with Spacial Rend suggests that it beats RayOgre while Kyogre + MegaGross probably beats Pdon+Xern. I figure Palkia might actually be good?
5) Lustrous Orb or something else on Palkia? Lustrous Orb seems pretty good, spam Dragon while MegaGross handles any Fairy mon. Spam obnoxiously overpowered Hydro Pump in Rain too. Palkia's Hydro Pump:
Base * STAB * Rain * Orb
(110*1.5*1.5*1.2) = 297. Fuck that shit.

Oh and I SR'd a 31/31/26 or 27/31/31/31 Timid Palkia if anyone wants it / you guys want it for the next VGC tourney giveaway. -2 points of Def at level 50 doesn't really seem to affect it.

edit:

calcs

252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 124-147 (70.8 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Palkia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 124-148 (70.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's not making or breaking KO's either:

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 109-130 (66 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (27 Def IVs)
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 108-127 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (31 Def IVs)

1 kyogre normally runs water spout, origin pulse, protect, and ice beam. Whether you want it bulky or fast depends on you, but i prefer bulky. With blue orb, of course.
2 Thundurus, strong physical attackers, and ferrothorn.
3 well I've never used virizion in this format, but virizion doesn't seem to be a good idea. Base 90 attack isn't going to scratch the legendaries, and it's typing doesn't seem too good either.
4 yes. Palkia is gaining quite a bit of traction these days, especially paired with Groudon and taught trick room.
5 most at using haban berry or Life orb, but if you are using hydro pump, go with lustrous orb. If you are not running trick room, go with lustrous orb. Earth power is very important for hitting groudon.
Mega mawile seems to be a better choice than Metagross, but the speed is very appealing. RIP
Xerneas.
For speed control use trick room on palkia, or use Thundurus, or maybe Crobat and talonflame. If you run trick room on palkia,go with Mawile over Metagross. Crobbat and talonflame are very popular this format.
To sum up, mawile palkia Kyogre ferrothorn, or Metagross palkia Kyogre Ferrothorn thundurus/crobat/talon.

This seems fun I might steal it

 

[Pyritie]

Does a core of Yveltal + Kyogre + Raichu + Mawile look like it has potential, and if so, what would be some good partners to fill out the last two slots?

 

[Draconid997]

Might try out the format after all once I find a few legendaries.
Kinda wanted to try out Mega Metagross + Palkia + Primal Kyogre as a core, but I'm kinda confused on wtf to use for speed control and a Kyogre counter with no Uber slots since cress + Megagross screams "Please kill me with Gengar, Aegislash, or any Dark move" and Mega Kangaskhan kinda shits on all 3.
I guess what I'm asking is:
1) What kind of sets does Kyogre run?
2) How does one kill Kyogre?
3) Would Virizion be retarded? The core fears almost nothing from MegaMence. Crobat isn't doing much beyond shitting itself. Talonflame in Primordial Sea facepalms at the core.
4) Palkia's massive Fire/Water resists, combined with outrunning Rayquaza and nuking with Spacial Rend suggests that it beats RayOgre while Kyogre + MegaGross probably beats Pdon+Xern. I figure Palkia might actually be good?
5) Lustrous Orb or something else on Palkia? Lustrous Orb seems pretty good, spam Dragon while MegaGross handles any Fairy mon. Spam obnoxiously overpowered Hydro Pump in Rain too. Palkia's Hydro Pump:
Base * STAB * Rain * Orb
(110*1.5*1.5*1.2) = 297. Fuck that shit.

Oh and I SR'd a 31/31/26 or 27/31/31/31 Timid Palkia if anyone wants it / you guys want it for the next VGC tourney giveaway. -2 points of Def at level 50 doesn't really seem to affect it.

edit:

calcs

252 SpA Lustrous Orb Palkia Spacial Rend vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 124-147 (70.8 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Palkia Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 124-148 (70.8 - 84.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

It's not making or breaking KO's either:

252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 109-130 (66 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (27 Def IVs)
252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Palkia: 108-127 (65.4 - 76.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (31 Def IVs)

I've been interested in this core for a while
I tried out adding crobat+double genies onto that core and in theory it works quite well
Metagross+Crobat would work like the common CroGar combo vs big 6 teams, so here are some sets:

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Tough Claws
Level: 50
EVs: 44 HP / 244 Atk / 44 Def / 4 SpD / 172 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Ice Punch
- Substitute
- Protect

Spread is designed around substitute, can set up 2 subs in the face of adamant kang's sucker punch, 44 HP gives a sub number (4n+1) so it can set up 4 substitutes and be left with 1 HP, speed allows you to outpace max speed xerneas with the rest in Atk. Ice punch for mega salamence/rayquaza/landorus-t

Crobat @ Lum Berry
Ability: Inner Focus
Level: 50
EVs: 68 HP / 188 Def / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Super Fang
- Taunt
- Tailwind
- Quick Guard

Survives +2 moonblast from xerneas / double-edge from kangaskhan most of the time

Here's the theory:

• Essentially with gengar crobat, you need something to stop smeargle and something to OHKO xerneas
• Metagross can OHKO xerneas with iron head+super fang, and sub can block dark voids etc
• Crobat can taunt smeargle and super fang xerneas as well as get a tailwind up
  
• T1: Protect + Taunt Smeargle
• T2: Iron Head + Super Fang Xerneas

Double genies just rounds out your matchup against other top 4 mons, so thundurus beats kyogre (life orb wild charge can OHKO most variants) and landorus beats primal groudon

Hope this answers your question :)

 

[Draconid997]

Does a core of Yveltal + Kyogre + Raichu + Mawile look like it has potential, and if so, what would be some good partners to fill out the last two slots?

Well i know that Christopher Arthur top cut glasgow with this team:

So Gengar Crobat might be worth a try, you could also use something to beat primal groudon, so maybe double genies would be a good pairing to use, or talonflame/landorus etc

 

[Pyritie]

Well i know that Christopher Arthur top cut glasgow with this team:

So Gengar Crobat might be worth a try, you could also use something to beat primal groudon, so maybe double genies would be a good pairing to use, or talonflame/landorus etc

I said kyogre, not groudon.

 

[Draconid997]

I said kyogre, not groudon.

I realise that, but those back two suggestions would work regardless.
Groudon/yveltal works in a similar fashion to kyogre/yveltal but kyogre allows you to beat groudon more easily, so yes i definitely think your idea has potential and the ideas that i originally suggested were for kyogre yveltal

 

[Pyritie]

I realise that, but those back two suggestions would work regardless.
Groudon/yveltal works in a similar fashion to kyogre/yveltal but kyogre allows you to beat groudon more easily, so yes i definitely think your idea has potential and the ideas that i originally suggested were for kyogre yveltal

I'm a bit concerned about the triple electric weakness (even with raichu) and the lack of anything to hit ferrothorn and dialga hard.

 

[Charlotte]

I actually played Koryo (Chris Arthur) at a PC recently and he was using Kyogre + Yveltal. Forgive my possibly poor memory, the one time I don't take notes, but I beleive the other 4 mons where M-Manectric, Ferrothorn, Landorus and Crobat.

 

[Draconid997]

I'm a bit concerned about the triple electric weakness (even with raichu) and the lack of anything to hit ferrothorn and dialga hard.

I see. Well, Landorus-T will help you out against both ferrothorn and dialga, kangaskhan can low kick dialga for good damage, talonflame can also help you out here, so let's look at your top 4 matchup with your core and evaluate from there who is best to use:
Xerneas: 1 Check (Mawile)
Groudon: 1/2 Checks (Yveltal/Kyogre)
Kyogre: 2/3 Checks (Yveltal/Raichu/Mawile)
Rayquaza: 2 Checks (Yveltal/Mawile)

So from this, xerneas seems kinda apparent that we need to check it, and the groudon matchup is kinda shaky so i would suggest that talonflame would be a good choice in one of your slots. Landorus-t would also be a good choice against groudon/ferrothorn/dialga as well as your triple electric weakness
My only concern here is that you won't have enough support to handle xerneas, so what i would suggest is to consider running talonflame and kangaskhan in your last two slots, as this will help you deal with xerneas/smeargle a little more easily.
Kangaskhan will also better your matchup against dialga with low kick etc.
Alternatively you could use double genies here, which would round out your top 4 matchup
Sorry about my initial post, was a bit confusing
Hope this answers your question

I actually played Koryo (Chris Arthur) at a PC recently and he was using Kyogre + Yveltal. Forgive my possibly poor memory, the one time I don't take notes, but I beleive the other 4 mons where M-Manectric, Ferrothorn, Landorus and Crobat.

Awesome team :)
Yeah crobat+Landorus-T could definitely work in your back 2 slots, plus haze crobat+mawile can handle xerneas with relative ease

 

[Pyritie]

I actually played Koryo (Chris Arthur) at a PC recently and he was using Kyogre + Yveltal. Forgive my possibly poor memory, the one time I don't take notes, but I beleive the other 4 mons where M-Manectric, Ferrothorn, Landorus and Crobat.

I see. Well, Landorus-T will help you out against both ferrothorn and dialga, kangaskhan can low kick dialga for good damage, talonflame can also help you out here, so let's look at your top 4 matchup with your core and evaluate from there who is best to use:
Xerneas: 1 Check (Mawile)
Groudon: 1/2 Checks (Yveltal/Kyogre)
Kyogre: 2/3 Checks (Yveltal/Raichu/Mawile)
Rayquaza: 2 Checks (Yveltal/Mawile)

So from this, xerneas seems kinda apparent that we need to check it, and the groudon matchup is kinda shaky so i would suggest that talonflame would be a good choice in one of your slots. Landorus-t would also be a good choice against groudon/ferrothorn/dialga as well as your triple electric weakness
My only concern here is that you won't have enough support to handle xerneas, so what i would suggest is to consider running talonflame and kangaskhan in your last two slots, as this will help you deal with xerneas/smeargle a little more easily.
Kangaskhan will also better your matchup against dialga with low kick etc.
Sorry about my initial post, was a bit confusing
Hope this answers your question



Awesome team :)
Yeah crobat+Landorus-T could definitely work in your back 2 slots, plus haze crobat+mawile can handle xerneas with relative ease

So:
Kyogre + yveltal + manectric + ferrothorn + landorus-t + crobat
Kyogre + yveltal + mawile + raichu + talonflame + kangaskhan
Kyogre + yveltal + mawile + raichu + landorus-t + crobat

These are good ideas, thanks!

Alternatively you could use double genies here, which would round out your top 4 matchup

Raichu and thundy on the same team seems redundant.

 

[Draconid997]

So:
Kyogre + yveltal + manectric + ferrothorn + landorus-t + crobat
Kyogre + yveltal + mawile + raichu + talonflame + kangaskhan
Kyogre + yveltal + mawile + raichu + landorus-t + crobat

These are good ideas, thanks!


Raichu and thundy on the same team seems redundant.

Yup i agree with your point about raichu/thundurus, crobat is much better in thundurus' spot, glad i could help :)
Also this kind of request would be perfect for the new teambuilding workshop :)

 

[Rcheez]

Why is this set not working for me? Apparently it's event only and need special conditions but a) I cannot find any special conditions, b) The moves are all Move Tutored or from level up moves, c) The nature is legit and d) It seems as if it being shiny doesn't affect it

Please help? Some people have said that it's because it hasn't been distributed yet according to serebii.net it was distributed for ORAS. Even the Smogon page has Ho-Oh with Regenerator. Help? Here's my set

Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird

Thanks!
P.S. I'm running Iron Head as a counter to Xerneas, please don't ask :P

 

[Pyritie]

Why is this set not working for me? Apparently it's event only and need special conditions but a) I cannot find any special conditions, b) The moves are all Move Tutored or from level up moves, c) The nature is legit and d) It seems as if it being shiny doesn't affect it

Please help? Some people have said that it's because it hasn't been distributed yet according to serebii.net it was distributed for ORAS. Even the Smogon page has Ho-Oh with Regenerator. Help? Here's my set

Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird

Thanks!
P.S. I'm running Iron Head as a counter to Xerneas, please don't ask :P

There is no way to get a pentagon Ho-Oh with Regenerator in gen 6.

P.S. STAB Sacred Fire is 150 BP, super effective Iron Head is only 160 BP, and STAB brave bird is 180 BP. Are you sure you need iron head? Xerneas already can't touch ho-oh.

 

[Take Azelfie]

Why is this set not working for me? Apparently it's event only and need special conditions but a) I cannot find any special conditions, b) The moves are all Move Tutored or from level up moves, c) The nature is legit and d) It seems as if it being shiny doesn't affect it

Please help? Some people have said that it's because it hasn't been distributed yet according to serebii.net it was distributed for ORAS. Even the Smogon page has Ho-Oh with Regenerator. Help? Here's my set

Ho-Oh @ Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 50
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Iron Head
- Recover
- Sacred Fire
- Brave Bird

Thanks!
P.S. I'm running Iron Head as a counter to Xerneas, please don't ask :P

Well I am not sure about the legality issues but your Ho-oh should most definately be offensive rather than specially defensive. A nature like Adamant or Jolly seems to work the best when partnered with Primal Groudon. Also I don't think that losing Regenerator will absolutely trash it so just to not suffer from any issues I would probably just go Pressure. Your EVs should also be something like 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe with maybe some investment taken somewhere to live an OHKO or something.

 

[Rcheez]

There is no way to get a pentagon Ho-Oh with Regenerator in gen 6.

P.S. STAB Sacred Fire is 150 BP, super effective Iron Head is only 160 BP, and STAB brave bird is 180 BP. Are you sure you need iron head? Xerneas already can't touch ho-oh.

ok thanks!

 

[Rcheez]

Well I am not sure about the legality issues but your Ho-oh should most definately be offensive rather than specially defensive. A nature like Adamant or Jolly seems to work the best when partnered with Primal Groudon. Also I don't think that losing Regenerator will absolutely trash it so just to not suffer from any issues I would probably just go Pressure. Your EVs should also be something like 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe with maybe some investment taken somewhere to live an OHKO or something.

Thanks :)

 

[Chantaraya]

I'm a bit concerned about the triple electric weakness (even with raichu) and the lack of anything to hit ferrothorn and dialga hard.

Pyritie if you are interested one friend of mine won a tournament with Kyogre/Yveltal/Crobat/Landorus-Therian/Gengar-Mega/Aegislash.
I think that Mawile could replace Aegislash without particular problems.

 

[Chantaraya]

Hi! I would like to build a Dialga/Kyogre team and I was wondering about the main defensive benchmarks (hence some effective ev spreads) for the time dragon.
Have you got any suggestion?
Thanks a lot!

 

[Draconid997]

Here's some sample sets (Taken from a recent rate):

Dialga @ Sitrus Berry / Lum Berry*
Ability: Telepathy (or Pressure)
Level: 50
EVs: 244 HP / 116 Def / 68 SpA / 76 SpD / 4 Spe
EVs: 252 HP / 60 Def / 116 SpA / 76 SpD / 4 Spe*
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower / Flash Cannon
- Trick Room
- Protect

*Lum Berry works best with this EV spread

These sets are pretty cool. Moves first though:
Dragon pulse allows you to one-shot a mega salamence with dragon pulse, and it means you don't have to worry about the SpA drop from Draco Meteor whilst under TR conditions.
Flamethrower is the less common coverage move choice on dialga, but it will allow you to get the kill on ferrothorn most of the time, depending on spread choice (2HKO on bulkier variants)
Flash cannon is the more popular coverage move going by usage, and allows you to hit stuff like xerneas which is pretty cool
Trick Room is a fantastic method of speed control for dialga and its team mates, also kinda resonates with the fact that it's a time dragon which i think is awesome
Lum berry is predominantly for smeargle, since you would be losing cresselia, and sitrus berry is for some key benchmarks which i will explain a little later
So the EVs will allow you to do a bunch of things.
The second spread is a little simpler, and will allow you to survive a precipice blades from physical primal groudon whilst simultaneously surviving an earth power from special primal groudon, as well as stuff like draco meteor from mega rayquaza:

• 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 252 HP / 60 Def Dialga: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252+ SpA Primal Groudon Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Dialga: 174-206 (84 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
• 252 SpA Life Orb Mega Rayquaza Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 76 SpD Dialga: 172-203 (83 - 98%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

The 244 HP on the second set will reach an even number at level 50, which means that crobat's super fang will activate the sitrus berry, allowing you to survive things that you wouldn't necessarily survive without, such as a precipice blades from physical primal groudon once it has been intimidated etc
What this also entails is that you get to survive 3 precipice blades from intimidated physical primal groudon (i.e an intimidate user would be great on a dialga team, especially with kyogre), which is a surprising benchmark given that dialga is weak to ground type attacks:

• -1 252+ Atk Primal Groudon Precipice Blades vs. 244 HP / 116 Def Dialga: 110-132 (53.3 - 64%) -- 3.5% chance to 2HKO after Sitrus Berry recovery

If you have any problems further on in teambuilding, feel free to ask in the teambuilding workshop :)

 

[cityscapes]

Hi, is there a place where the VGC 2016 speed tiers are stored? I'm using Breloom on my team and I can't decide whether the extra speed from Jolly matters enough to use it over Adamant. Thanks!

 

[Draconid997]

http://nuggetbridge.com/blogs/entry/957-vgc-’16-pokémon-speed-tiers/

This is quite outdated, so use it in conjunction with the viability rankings to help you make a better choice

If youre stuck anywhere else in teambuilding, feel free to ask in the vgc 16 workshop :)

 

[GundamExia]

what's the craze about the telepathy dialga, i just found out about the event.

is telepathy really that much better then pressure??

what kind of use and pros does telepathy dialga offers??

 

[Take Azelfie]

Not dying to your partners Earthquake