Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

[stage7_4]

While we still need more information, I do understand why trials are making the gym-side nervous.

1. Fights. It's only been confirmed that you fight the big Kahuna in the grand trial of each island. So that's 4 boss battles (confirmed). The 4 other revealed sub-trial leaders... well it's been implied that you don't fight them like a gym leader. Instead you get a Totem fight.

2. Totem fights. From the little video, it almost looked like 2-on-1 (Pikachu vs Gumshoos and back-up). While this could be an interesting way to create challenge for an in-game that is getting pretty stale, it could also mean puzzle bosses or "difficulty by furstration rather than challenge." It will remain to be seen.

I remain optimistic, but on the other hand one of my favorite things about pokemon is the fairness: what works for bosses also works for you. There aren't any secret boss techs (well, with minor exceptions. Looking at you barrier Dragonite and underleveled Hydreigon!), usually just content that hasn't been unlocked for you yet (although you can always trade it in). Totem Bosses have so far implied to be typical RPG unfairness with the 2 on 1 tactic (and implied stat buffs over the regular version of the species). It could make it fun, but no doubt that there would be a cost.

3. Amounts. All we know is there's 4 Grand Trials and 4 sub trials (for probably the first island). Mathmatically that would imply 16 sub-trials and 4 grand trials for 20 trials total... but there's no guarantee about that. And this makes the gym leader camp nervous for both too few and too much, the too few camp worried there will be less "gym equivalents" than other main series games while the too much camp worried that the quality for each individually will drop as it spreads out from 8 to potentially 20.

Again, I want to give Gamefreak the benefit of the doubt for shaking up the formula. But I don't decry the detractors for getting scared and clinging to nostalgia. They have some legitimate fears. Let's hope Gamefreak soothes them.

 

[Siggu]

The totem fight shown in the trailer reminded me of those annoying enemies in the MOTHER series that keep calling for help.

(As long as there isn't anything like a Men's Room Sign-like boss that calls for help...)

 

[Mova]

Mutli-hit moves could become more useful for in-game purposes, even if they still have lower Base Power against multiple opponents.

Also, most of the leaks in that masterpost seem about accurate so far.

 

[Sirya]

You are wrong, gym is a staple, an institution.

In gaming it means it gives the designers a place where several trainers and puzzles can be placed without the need of them clashing with the overworld in a functional way. They also function as power benchmarks and roadblocks for level progression, a good thing in any game, look at Johto being garbage after the 4th gym, this happens when you overcompensate freedom of choice and make a mechanic suffer.

This is the grip many players have with this movement of the gym to outdoor areas, the puzzles might drag into shit mini games and other stuff aside from the franchise core, and that is a realistic gripe.

First off, puzzles in all the gyms have never been elaborated. There is no actual difference between puzzle mechanics when you design the inside of a gym or a maze in the forest, only real, palpable difference is coherence. Videogames have never needed coherence to be great in their respective genres (look at the Donkey Kong Country saga from SNES, they are platforming tittles which design tries to be coherent, you can see it in the detail of the platforms not being put in the air, and then you have all the Super Mario Bros. series). It's not necesary for trainers and puzzles to clash with the overworld design if the design is functional, and that's about we are talking here. You can put Pryce in the same place as Articuno and it would be considered a marvelous puzle, which also has sense in a design perspective.

Most of the evil team leaders do not appear to you in gyms (in fact, only Giovanni comes to mind), but in other places which are, most of them, more elaborated, more challenging, with a superior number of trainers and --sometimes-- even gameplay mechanics (Team Rocket base, Silph S.A, Goldenrood Radio Tower...). To put it simple: they do better than the gyms in all that matters, and they could very well be --with a little change to the plot and the general design-- substitutes form the gyms, preserving all of what is important (they serve as power benchmarks and roadblocks too).

So I think not, we are talking about entirely different things. Puzzles may not drag into shit mini games, there's no design need or real impediment to think otherwise.

 

[Karxrida]

2. Totem fights. From the little video, it almost looked like 2-on-1 (Pikachu vs Gumshoos and back-up). While this could be an interesting way to create challenge for an in-game that is getting pretty stale, it could also mean puzzle bosses or "difficulty by furstration rather than challenge." It will remain to be seen.

I remain optimistic, but on the other hand one of my favorite things about pokemon is the fairness: what works for bosses also works for you. There aren't any secret boss techs (well, with minor exceptions. Looking at you barrier Dragonite and underleveled Hydreigon!), usually just content that hasn't been unlocked for you yet (although you can always trade it in). Totem Bosses have so far implied to be typical RPG unfairness with the 2 on 1 tactic (and implied stat buffs over the regular version of the species). It could make it fun, but no doubt that there would be a cost.

I don't see this being an issue unless it ends up being handled poorly. The AI playing too fair is a major contributor to the lack of difficulty in the series, so giving the computer an advantage over the player will help alleviate that.

 

[stage7_4]

Also, most of the leaks in that masterpost seem about accurate so far.

I dunno. Leak no. 3 seems excessive and technically nothing on it has been proven true (as said on the masterpost itself).

I'm invoking the reverse strawman fallacy. Just because one element was proven correct doesn't mean the whole thing is correct.

I don't see this being an issue unless it ends up being handled poorly. The AI playing too fair is a major contributor to the lack of difficulty in the series, so giving the computer an advantage over the player will help alleviate that.

I'd argue that it's not because the AI is too fair, more that it's very unfair for the AI. Pokemon is challenging... on a competitive level. But since the AI is so gimped with smaller party sizes, lack of switching, common weaknesses, few actually mega evolve, etc. that the player is given a huge advantage for just utilizing common sense. The player is a god amongst mice.

But you are correct that it could be a good thing to have "secret boss arts" to up the challenge, as long as it actually fixes the problem without making new ones. But it would still be taking one of the unique things about pokemon games and making it like everybody else, and that's just a little sad.

Maybe necessary and good for us in the long run, but still sad.

 

[Prof. Almeida]

If you have four trials and one kahuna per island, we might be seeing something way more fun, complex and time-consuming than gym leaders. More memorable as well.

 

[boxofkangaroos]

Snagged this from a video Shofu posted, should get us up to date with all the current "valid" leaks.

Spoiler master post

Woah, the thing with Bewear in the last leak spooks me out. That one seems the most believable of any of the leaks.

(just praying that Litten doesn't evolve into that ridiculous monster)

 

[Kurona]

So everyone's saying the leak about Yungoos' evolution being 'fat and hairy' was right, but... am I the only one who's really not seeing it? Like, at all?

It's sort of large and has some slightly hairy bits, but nothing that I'd say is a defining factor. If anything it looks pretty sleek to me; I really don't see how the leaks' description matches up at all.

 

[Count Bleck]

So everyone's saying the leak about Yungoos' evolution being 'fat and hairy' was right, but... am I the only one who's really not seeing it? Like, at all?

It's sort of large and has some slightly hairy bits, but nothing that I'd say is a defining factor. If anything it looks pretty sleek to me; I really don't see how the leaks' description matches up at all.

Well, fat is a bit too far, but he's a lot more bulkier than his smaller form.

 

[Norne]

First off, puzzles in all the gyms have never been elaborated. There is no actual difference between puzzle mechanics when you design the inside of a gym or a maze in the forest, only real, palpable difference is coherence. Videogames have never needed coherence to be great in their respective genres (look at the Donkey Kong Country saga from SNES, they are platforming tittles which design tries to be coherent, you can see it in the detail of the platforms not being put in the air, and then you have all the Super Mario Bros. series). It's not necesary for trainers and puzzles to clash with the overworld design if the design is functional, and that's about we are talking here. You can put Pryce in the same place as Articuno and it would be considered a marvelous puzle, which also has sense in a design perspective.

Most of the evil team leaders do not appear to you in gyms (in fact, only Giovanni comes to mind), but in other places which are, most of them, more elaborated, more challenging, with a superior number of trainers and --sometimes-- even gameplay mechanics (Team Rocket base, Silph S.A, Goldenrood Radio Tower...). To put it simple: they do better than the gyms in all that matters, and they could very well be --with a little change to the plot and the general design-- substitutes form the gyms, preserving all of what is important (they serve as power benchmarks and roadblocks too).

So I think not, we are talking about entirely different things. Puzzles may not drag into shit mini games, there's no design need or real impediment to think otherwise.

Might not drag into shit mini games? Oh boy ever played any dungeon exploring game by Nintendo? I wouldn't be surprised if we had a shity rhythm mini game before having to fight the fire marowak dude.

 

[Mova]

The thing about the more legitimate leaks is the fact that they often attempt to throw it off with at least one detail, such as the Chinese leaks and the alleged Synchro. They tend to do that to discourage people from believing the first thing they read.

 

[Kiga]

I know this is kind of outdated, but this thread has been growing so fast...

My problem right now is that there have been no other examples of different forms based on evolution (the Darwinian kind) in previous Pokemon games, where there seemingly should have been if there were in alola. We will see what they do going forward. And although it would be interesting to see things like the crystal onix and delta species, those are canon for the anime and tcg respectively, not the games (as of now, although the new forms are kinda like delta species). Hopefully as they release more remakes they make the necessary changes of different Pokemon forms in different regions (where appropriate).

One thing to bare in mind is that most of the regions that exist in the first four generations, including the core regions, the Orange Islands, and the Sevii Islands, are situated in the 'Japan' of their world. Even Orre, which is essentially the state of Arizona, has been localized to this 'Japan', and is presumably west of Johto and east of Hoenn. Given that context, massive changes in species isn't something that's really going to be seen. Realistically speaking, the changes in species would be something more equivalent to the difference between Kantonian and Sinnoan Pikachu, in that a Sinnoh pedigree female would have the notched tail and the Kanto-born would have the flat tail that matched their male counterparts. Of course, this isn't actually the case in canon, but it's an example of what could easily have been regional differences if they had been considered. (As a point of notice, has Yellow's Pikachu, ChuChu, been seen since the introduction of gender differences?)

Outside of possibly the Ranger games, only Unova, set in the north-eastern US, and Kalos, set in France, have existed outside of Japan prior to Alola. While some differences might have been appreciable, these locations don't necessarily lend the idea of large trends in darwinism; even so, we still have some examples of it. Zen Mode Darmanitan occur naturally in Unova, but haven't truly been seen in either Kalos or ORAS-Hoenn, while Vivillon is an actual real world example of darwinism at play. Even the change in a feebas' evolutionary trigger could be a soft example of this, given that the Prism Scale doesn't exist in any Japan-located games bar ORAS.

The thing with Alola, though, is that through these new forms show that the Galapagos isles are a form of influence on Game Freak's design for the region. The Galapagos are renowned simply for the fact that they are the home of the most diversely evolved animals in the world, so the fact that Alola forms actually exist in the first place is not only obvious in hindsight, they're something that should have been expected to happen eventually - after all, what better place in the world for Pokémon to explore in some form or another than the Galapagos?

Now, the one thing I'll give you here is that it could have been easy for them to introduce these forms earlier, either through NPC's like the woman who had the Munchlax in XD, or through some of the safari zones. I'm won't begrudge GF for failing to do this, as introducing pokémon from Gen (N+2,3,4,...) as an NPC in Gen N is a door that should generally stay shut. My point, however, is that the Johto Safari Zone in particular feels like a park that was manufactured for the sole purpose of creating business through importing foreign and exotic pokémon for safari goers to see and catch. In a real world, I wouldn't have found it surprising in the slightest if the Johto safari had imported a few of the exotic Alolan breed of pokémon that were so common to the Kanto-Johto area.

To close, I'll just say that at this point, I'm treating certain aspects across several canon as possibilities in all forms of canon. This includes the Crystal Onix and the Delta Species. They may not exist, as I mentioned, in the traditionally obtainable sense, but the world is larger than we know. To disregard them would be akin to saying that Porygon-Z doesn't exist in the anime world, and that Kadabra doesn't exist in the world of the modern TCG. Exeggutor should be proof of this alone.

 

[Kurona]

Well, fat is a bit too far, but he's a lot more bulkier than his smaller form.

Yeah, but it's not exactly the biggest trait to point out. The big, main difference from Yungoos is that it's bipedal; wouldn't that have been a lot more notable?

 

[Karxrida]

The thing about the more legitimate leaks is the fact that they often attempt to throw it off with at least one detail, such as the Chinese leaks and the alleged Synchro. They tend to do that to discourage people from believing the first thing they read.

Synchro or whatever is still possible because Ash-Greninja currently lacks a clear explanation.

 

[Magcargo]

I'm pretty sure what gamefreak will do in terms of structure for each island is make it so that you face one trial captain after completing whatever task they give you and defeating the totem pokemon, travel around for a bit, complete another task and defeat another totem pokemon before facing another trial captain, and finally battling the Kahuna before traveling to another Island and doing the exact same thing. In short, it most likely will be the same structure of previous games, with the exception of slightly more elaborate puzzles and major boss fights in the form of Kahunas between the even and odd numbered gyms. I wouldn't be surprised if the player, while trying to complete the trial, battles other people who are also attempting to complete the trial, replacing the gym trainers of old. I think the Kahuna's might be this games version of the Elite 4, except their spread out throughout the game rather than battled in succession.

 

[stage7_4]

So everyone's saying the leak about Yungoos' evolution being 'fat and hairy' was right, but... am I the only one who's really not seeing it? Like, at all?

It's sort of large and has some slightly hairy bits, but nothing that I'd say is a defining factor. If anything it looks pretty sleek to me; I really don't see how the leaks' description matches up at all.

Yeah, I'd call him hairy for sure but fat is a stretch. Honestly, he looks similar like the type of detective character he's supposed to be invoking:

you have probably already seen this comparison

 

[Lady Vader]

Might not drag into shit mini games? Oh boy ever played any dungeon exploring game by Nintendo? I wouldn't be surprised if we had a shity rhythm mini game before having to fight the fire marowak dude.

Here's the thing: Nintendo isn't the one actually making the game, Game Freak is. They are the developers of the main series game. What happens in other Nintendo franchises don't directly affect what Game Freak does with Pokémon.

 

[Norne]

Here's the thing: Nintendo isn't the one actually making the game, Game Freak is. They are the developers of the main series game. What happens in other Nintendo franchises don't directly affect what Game Freak does with Pokémon.

There is a precedent in the genre, trying to say it won't go into the gutter for trying to be innovative would be like saying that DP isn't the slowest game in the franchise.

 

[I refuse to sink]

Do you think of the rumors Growlithe / Arcanine water type, new hairstyles for Furfrou and a possible new Pokémon Ice / Ghost based on a snowman?

To me so far I revealed everything I like, I'm delighted. This time do not know if I will be able to control my emotions. They are bringing out many things and all good.

 

[QuickBH]

Honestly I'm not a fan of all these type changes, minus Eggexcutor, just because they either end up worse competitively or I think they mess up on a key part of their design. (Only Ninetales for now, I feel like it messed up on the regalness and it looks less mystic, but that's just me)

I can't imagine what they'll do to Abra and Arcanine, Arcanine's flowy mane, fur, and size makes him look so regal and awesome and a water type Arcanine will betray those main qualities. Fighting Abra just, doesn't make sense to me, he can use those spoons for fighting but we knew them this whole time as this master of psychic energy and that it uses it to replace fighting. I mean what, there wasn't any place they could meditate so they just started fighting? Also afraid they'll butcher the design.

Guess I'm only complaining on the leaks, but it's safe to say they're going to happen.

 

[Taistelu]

Do you think of the rumors Growlithe / Arcanine water type, new hairstyles for Furfrou and a possible new Pokémon Ice / Ghost based on a snowman?

To me so far I revealed everything I like, I'm delighted. This time do not know if I will be able to control my emotions. They are bringing out many things and all good.

Water Type Fire Pokemon make less sense than Ice Type Fire Pokemon. I tend to disbelieve rumors and leeks because half of them are stupid anyway.

I can also see Pikachu getting some sort of Alola Form because Game Freak love their little mascot to bits.

 

[Nelson Tangela]

Fighting Abra just, doesn't make sense to me, he can use those spoons for fighting but we knew them this whole time as this master of psychic energy and that it uses it to replace fighting. I mean what, there wasn't any place they could meditate so they just started fighting? Also afraid they'll butcher the design.

Pokémon Alpha Sapphire Pokédex: "Abra needs to sleep for eighteen hours a day. If it doesn't, this Pokémon loses its ability to use telekinetic powers. If it is attacked, Abra escapes using Teleport while it is still sleeping."

Guess something in Alola is keeping Abra awake, so it had to learn to fight with its hands. lol

This would also mean that we have a case of an Alolan version with a Mega Evolution if the Abra leak is true.

 

[Lady Vader]

Pokémon Alpha Sapphire Pokédex: "Abra needs to sleep for eighteen hours a day. If it doesn't, this Pokémon loses its ability to use telekinetic powers. If it is attacked, Abra escapes using Teleport while it is still sleeping."

Guess something in Alola is keeping Abra awake, so it had to learn to fight with its hands. lol

This would also mean that we have a case of an Alolan version with a Mega Evolution if the Abra leak is true.

And it will have Insomnia as its ability.

 

[SecretT]

Pokémon Alpha Sapphire Pokédex: "Abra needs to sleep for eighteen hours a day. If it doesn't, this Pokémon loses its ability to use telekinetic powers. If it is attacked, Abra escapes using Teleport while it is still sleeping."

Guess something in Alola is keeping Abra awake, so it had to learn to fight with its hands. lol

This would also mean that we have a case of an Alolan version with a Mega Evolution if the Abra leak is true.

A fighting type Abra/Kadabra/Alakazam would probably not fight with its hands, but use special fighting moves, like vacuum wave/focus blast etc