Gen VII: Pokemon Sun and Moon Discussion MKII

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I think you are the only one, because you're missing the main point of Alola forms, that the species as a whole developed differently on Alola than in the rest of the world. They're not switchable forms.
Yeah and I get that and I get the point, but that's also kind of assuming that they're prioritising lore over gameplay. I just get the feeling that they'll introduce something that would let you switch between forms.
Like, take ORAS. Primal Groudon/Kyogre is built up to be an extremely dangerous form whose very presence threatens the structure of the world's ecosystem and even the survivability of the human race. As soon as the event is over? "Here, take this orb to let them switch to that form any time you want. Oh it's totally okay because this time it's somehow contained".
No matter what lore they introduce, Game Freak will always prioritise gameplay features and obtainability over them period. It would be correct to say that they won't definitely introduce a form-switching item, but I don't think it's off the table at all and it feels like something they would do.
 
Yeah and I get that and I get the point, but that's also kind of assuming that they're prioritising lore over gameplay. I just get the feeling that they'll introduce something that would let you switch between forms.
Like, take ORAS. Primal Groudon/Kyogre is built up to be an extremely dangerous form whose very presence threatens the structure of the world's ecosystem and even the survivability of the human race. As soon as the event is over? "Here, take this orb to let them switch to that form any time you want. Oh it's totally okay because this time it's somehow contained".
No matter what lore they introduce, Game Freak will always prioritise gameplay features and obtainability over them period. It would be correct to say that they won't definitely introduce a form-switching item, but I don't think it's off the table at all and it feels like something they would do.
However, wasn't there some kind of massive mineral in the depths of Sootopolis City that allowed them to reach their Primal Form? I recall a giant ruby-like or sapphire-like crystal formation that allowed them to take their "original" form, and in fact the legendaries didn't take those forms until you reached the depth. After all, even their transformation showcases them being enveloped in a crystal, so perhaps they only need to stay close to the orbs (which could have the same properties of the "Sootopolis Crystal") to trigger the transformation.

Alola Pokémon, instead, seem a bit more akin to Wormadam in a sense, since Wormadam as well adapts to the environment and gains the respective type. Once they are in that way, they can't go back.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
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Hyper Training:
So a Silver Cap maxes a single stat and Gold Cap my max multiple stats. So Bronze may just increase one stat's IVs by one point? Or maybe there will be a cap for each stat (and maybe some additional special caps).

Alolan Switch:
Like I said, I think at most we'd just be able to have a normal/Alolan Pokemon be able to breed an Alolan/normal Pokemon. The Alolan Pokemon are essentially different Pokemon with not only different types and Abilities but also stats, they're gonna play differently maybe even having entirely different roles. Having them be able to switch I don't see the point for as they won't be able to do their job as good as one that was trained naturally to be that variant. Though if its the Moves you want I imagine there will be some cross breeding thing going on concerning Egg Moves, that's going to be something GF would want to have control over.
 
Some surprisingly detailed information on Hyper Training came through today.

"Earlier this week, the Youtube Channel for the Japanese magazine, V-Jump, put up a video detailing IVs in Pokémon. In this video it gave a bit of clarification into the process. In the video, it showed three different Garchomp with different IV spreads and each of them used a Silver Bottle Cap at Hyper Training. This allowed for one stat to be increased, in this case the Attack was increased on all three Garchomp. This means that you'll be able to use the Silver Bottle Cap in exchange to increase one stat only. It was also mentioned that there may be a Gold Bottle Cap, and questioned if it will be used to increase multiple stats to their maximum. It is still not known how the Bottle Caps can be obtained and if there's a limit to the amount you can find." ~Serebii





tl;dr - a Silver Bottle Cap raises a single Stat to having a 31 in it's IV no matter what the IV was before. Implication there's a Gold Bottle Cap that raises multiple stats.
Hmm, I'm not going to lie, I don't like the sound of hyper training at all. Heck, by next gen all Pokemon will just be 6IV at the rate this is going... Although it will be nice if you breed an ~almost perfect shiny cause then it's not worthless.
 
Glad to hear bottles caps maximize a stat's IV's right away. I never used super training because of the tedious minigames and just battled hordes instead.
 
One "problem" I have with Hyper Training is Hidden Power. Will it change its type (As it happens if you hack a Pokemon so far) or it will be calculated from its original IVs?
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
Were Bronze Caps confirmed to exist? I can see why people would think so due to having Silver and Gold, but I don't recall Bronze ever being mentioned.

Hmm, I'm not going to lie, I don't like the sound of hyper training at all. Heck, by next gen all Pokemon will just be 6IV at the rate this is going... Although it will be nice if you breed an ~almost perfect shiny cause then it's not worthless.
What do you have it against it?
 
Hyper Training:
So a Silver Cap maxes a single stat and Gold Cap my max multiple stats. So Bronze may just increase one stat's IVs by one point? Or maybe there will be a cap for each stat (and maybe some additional special caps).

Alolan Switch:
Like I said, I think at most we'd just be able to have a normal/Alolan Pokemon be able to breed an Alolan/normal Pokemon. The Alolan Pokemon are essentially different Pokemon with not only different types and Abilities but also stats, they're gonna play differently maybe even having entirely different roles. Having them be able to switch I don't see the point for as they won't be able to do their job as good as one that was trained naturally to be that variant. Though if its the Moves you want I imagine there will be some cross breeding thing going on concerning Egg Moves, that's going to be something GF would want to have control over.
If they exist I wonder if Bronze caps drop an IV stat to 0, since there seems to be a niche for those(such as Ferrothorns wanting 0 Speed IVs for full powered Gyro Balls.)
 
Assuming there is a Bronze Bottle Cap of course. This also seems indicate that there won't be a way to reduce IVs, which would be good for the people grumbling about hyper training "taking their jerbs"
 
One "problem" I have with Hyper Training is Hidden Power. Will it change its type (As it happens if you hack a Pokemon so far) or it will be calculated from its original IVs?
I see no reason why the Hidden Power type wouldn't change. If it was calculated off original IVs, that's amazing and could open up a ton of possibilities because you could just breed random IVs for days until you get the right Hidden Power and just use Hyper Training on them. Not to mention HP Fire Latios getting to speed-tie with other 110s. But alas, I doubt this is the case.
 
Hyper Training:
So a Silver Cap maxes a single stat and Gold Cap my max multiple stats. So Bronze may just increase one stat's IVs by one point? Or maybe there will be a cap for each stat (and maybe some additional special caps).
With the way Kurona described it, I think you'll just be able to increase any stat/stats you want with silver/golds caps.

I can see there being IV decreasing caps. After all, you can decrease your EVs with in-game items.
 
Were Bronze Caps confirmed to exist? I can see why people would think so due to having Silver and Gold, but I don't recall Bronze ever being mentioned.


What do you have it against it?
I don't know, it just makes getting battle ready Pokemon feel cheap to me. It probably won't be a big deal though. I assume getting these bottle caps will be very difficult to obtain, considering what they do.
 

Pikachu315111

Ranting & Raving!
is a Community Contributoris a Top Smogon Media Contributor
Hmm, I'm not going to lie, I don't like the sound of hyper training at all. Heck, by next gen all Pokemon will just be 6IV at the rate this is going... Although it will be nice if you breed an ~almost perfect shiny cause then it's not worthless.
Don't you mean 31IV?

Glad to hear bottles caps maximize a stat's IV's right away. I never used super training because of the tedious minigames and just battled hordes instead.
Silver (and maybe Gold) does, however with them being that good I have a suspicion they'll be Event only (or Silver would be really hard to get like the Starf Berry). I'm assuming there will be "lesser" Bottle Caps.

One "problem" I have with Hyper Training is Hidden Power. Will it change its type (As it happens if you hack a Pokemon so far) or it will be calculated from its original IVs?
Guessing they'd work as normal so if you want a Hidden Power of a certain type you'll need to plan ahead which stats your going to raise. I'd wish they just let you pick the Hidden Power type you want, at the time it was a neat gimmick but IVs have an important and widely paid attention to effect on the game, it doesn't need something else like the Happiness stat which doesn't have effect on gameplay aside from some gimmicks.

Though Fawfulmk-II brings up the interesting idea of having Bottle Caps that decrease a stat if they keep Hidden Power as is or want a slow Pokemon to have 0 Speed IVs.

Were Bronze Caps confirmed to exist? I can see why people would think so due to having Silver and Gold, but I don't recall Bronze ever being mentioned.
Only Silver and now Gold confirmed so far. Everything else is speculation. However with Silver confirmed to max out one stat and Gold for multiple stats is it wrong to speculate about their being lower caps which do lesser amounts?

With the way Kurona described it, I think you'll just be able to increase any stat/stats you want with silver/golds caps.

I can see there being IV decreasing caps. After all, you can decrease your EVs with in game items.
Yeah, but that seems a bit op. Silver & Gold sound like really hard to get/Event caps, lesser caps which increase a stat by one or a few points doesn't sound too unbelievable.
 
With the way Kurona described it, I think you'll just be able to increase any stat/stats you want with silver/golds caps.

I can see there being IV decreasing caps. After all, you can decrease your EVs with in game items.
While I can see the correlation, I don't think using a decreaser for EVs is a completely valid comparison. In the case of EVs, there is an obvious drawback to raising them - there's an overall limit to how many EVs a Pokémon has, so when you put say, max attack and defence EVs onto your Jolteon (a rather hilarious mistake), you can't increase it's special attack or speed anymore. Hence EV decreasing there serves the purpose of allowing other stats to have EVs put into them.
However, in the case of IVs, there isn't such an obvious drawback. If you increase your Attack IV with Hyper Training, it doesn't mean you can't increase your Defence or Special Attack or anything. It doesn't take away opportunity from other stats like EVs do. So while there are case you'd want to decrease IVs - Trick Room, Foul Play, Hidden Power - they're not quite as obvious a drawback and it's likely something Game Freak would not foresee. Here's hoping they do though, it would be cool.
 

CTNC

Doesn't know how to attack
Hyper Training existing is why I'm Not Hyper Training my Blaziken. Hyper Training existing may have the side effect of making Slightly Flawed Shinies More Valuable than Flawless ones. The only flaw with my Blaziken is a 27 in Defense, so showing that it hatched with that instead of having a 31 that may or may not be Artificial as far as other people can tell feels more showboaty. (If there's Bronze Bottle caps that just add 1, then this becomes less awesome.)

I hope that Hyper Training a Pokemon gives it a new Ribbon so we can tell which ones have Artificial 31s.
 
I think ribbons for using Hyper Training (which I doubt they will implement) will only be useful for trading. In a tournament, which is really where IVs matter, nobody is going to care if you get defeated by an artificially or naturally perfect Pokemon. And once you start talking about artificial vs. natural with regards to Pokemon, that's a steep rabbit hole drop.

TBH I was a bit meh about Hyper Training at first, since like many Smogoners I spent hours breeding or SR-ing for legends. But then I've come to terms with the fact that that's sunk cost, and I build up enough perfect parents that I don't need to rely on Hyper Training for breedables. Besides, I have some pre-RNG mons that have sentimental values and decent natures that can be competitive.

I also think Bottle Caps will be rare enough that you can't Hyper Train everything. There's nothing wrong with giving casual players the satisfaction that 1 or 2 of their Pokemon are indeed "top percentage."
 
Hyper Training existing is why I'm Not Hyper Training my Blaziken. Hyper Training existing may have the side effect of making Slightly Flawed Shinies More Valuable than Flawless ones. The only flaw with my Blaziken is a 27 in Defense, so showing that it hatched with that instead of having a 31 that may or may not be Artificial as far as other people can tell feels more showboaty. (If there's Bronze Bottle caps that just add 1, then this becomes less awesome.)

I hope that Hyper Training a Pokemon gives it a new Ribbon so we can tell which ones have Artificial 31s.
I don't see how it matters if your pokemon is "artificial." I get that breeders are upset that now anyone can get perfect ivs, but honestly it really shouldn't matter how "impressed" other people are of your work. Tbh the way you're referring to hyper trained pokemon as "artificial" just sounds elitist. Breeding shouldn't grant you any validation. At the end of the day, most people just want perfect ivs for competitive battling, and they're most likely not gonna care how the pokemon got those ivs. Sorry you feel like your work went to waste, but hyper training is just better. But hey, no one is forcing you to hyper train, so just do you. That's the cool thing about pokemon. There is no wrong way to play.
 
About Hidden Power, I wouldn't be surprised if they reworked it in some way so that it would no longer conflict with Hyper Training. They got rid of the base power being dependent on IVs in X/Y after all. Doing this would also finally make a Fairy-Type Hidden Power possible.

(e.g. They could make it depend on part of the personality value instead, and just silently change the PVs of all incoming Bank Pokemon from Gen VI to keep the Hidden Power type the same. They already do this silent change for shininess after all.)
 
I'm getting the feeling that the Silver Bottle Cap coming with Magearna is basically a taste of power in intent. A way to whet players' whistles for in-game Bottle Cap hunting. (Not that I have any idea what kind of Bottle Cap would let you decrease someone's IV by any amount. Lead Bottle Cap?) But I'm wondering if the demonstration with that Pikachu (i.e. all stats going up at once) might itself signify the existence of a Gold Bottle Cap.

My personal suspicions...

Bronze Bottle Caps: +1-+5 (not random, just likely to be somewhere on that spectrum) to one stat. About as easy to find as Heart Scales on the beach.
Lead Bottle Caps: -1 to one stat if Hidden Power will be affected, -1--5 otherwise (or maybe even zero outright, but that should increase rarity). More difficult to find, but not by much. The idea is not to flood anybody with such specialized caps.
Silver Bottle Caps: As seen, maximize one stat. Still more difficult to find.
Gold Bottle Caps: Maximize all stats at once. Strictly a lotto prize.

Personally, I'm hoping there isn't some IAP map or the like necessary to get at Bottle Caps (think in terms of, say, the grinding maps in Shin Megami Tensei IV)...
 

Karxrida

Death to the Undying Savage
is a Community Contributor Alumnus
About Hidden Power, I wouldn't be surprised if they reworked it in some way so that it would no longer conflict with Hyper Training. They got rid of the base power being dependent on IVs in X/Y after all. Doing this would also finally make a Fairy-Type Hidden Power possible.

(e.g. They could make it depend on part of the personality value instead, and just silently change the PVs of all incoming Bank Pokemon from Gen VI to keep the Hidden Power type the same. They already do this silent change for shininess after all.)
Making Hidden Power be determined by the Personality Value would be way worse. At least you have some control over it when breeding with the current system.

Besides, it would still necessitate soft-reseting Legends and negate one of the biggest perks to Hyper Training. We don't want GF to take one step forward and two steps back.
 
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CTNC

Doesn't know how to attack
I don't see how it matters if your pokemon is "artificial." I get that breeders are upset that now anyone can get perfect ivs, but honestly it really shouldn't matter how "impressed" other people are of your work. Tbh the way you're referring to hyper trained pokemon as "artificial" just sounds elitist. Breeding shouldn't grant you any validation. At the end of the day, most people just want perfect ivs for competitive battling, and they're most likely not gonna care how the pokemon got those ivs. Sorry you feel like your work went to waste, but hyper training is just better. But hey, no one is forcing you to hyper train, so just do you. That's the cool thing about pokemon. There is no wrong way to play.
I actually like Hyper Training for the Legends and Shinies and believe that it will probably be a waste for ones you can just breed more of. (In fact, I have a shiny Altaria with an Attack IV of 2 or 3 that's begging for this.) I just want there to be Ribbons so we can tell which ones were born flawless. It feels more awesome to have a Flawless Pokemon and have proof that it was born flawless, even if you don't show it off to anyone. (I may have an ego problem...) I'm not going to argue against Artificial sounding elitist, I just don't know how else I could put it. Sorry if I rubbed anyone the wrong way.

Two massive, but less obvious, upsides to Hyper Training that I see are that Hidden Power is way easier to get and we don't need to rely on RNG abuse for previous generations. You only have to go for the 30s (and maybe the type) for Hidden Power. Gen III is the only way to get a Softboiled Clefable so now I can get one! Even for those that did RNG abuse, they couldn't do it for events, so the only viable Wish Chansey were hacked. We now have Legit Flawless Wish Chansey!
 
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