The problem is that you can miss, i guessCacturne is not that broken if you know how to play vs it, ofc it will have loads of fun time vs slow fat teams but it can't do much vs offensive teams wich mostly have atleast 3 mons that outspeed it and 1hko it back.
It isn't supposed to 1hko anything, the moveset used is actually Substitute + Leech Seed + Protect lol. As in DPP and BW, Sand Veil should be banned in this generation too.Still cacturne Has no means to 1hko stuff like aero and it is a setup bait for any cm celebi aswell as faster sub mons
Actually the most common moveset does not run protect, it runs seed sub hp dark spikes/needle armIt isn't supposed to 1hko anything, the moveset used is actually Substitute + Leech Seed + Protect lol. As in DPP and BW, Sand Veil should be banned in this generation too.
Isn't the most common moveset but it's used. And even lacking of Protect it's still luck based and it's trash.Actually the most common moveset does not run protect, it runs seed sub hp dark spikes/needle arm
u cant compare bw chomp or dpp gliscor to cacturne tho. they have much better stats, better moverpool -sword dance mainly, which made them rly difficult to deal with- (also cacturne is dugtrio bait, and spikes bait if it doesnt run hp fire and ofc taunt bait).
cacturne's bad speed stats also lets it make effective only vs fatter build, while gliscor and chomp were much more threatening in general. i can see the reasons why some ppl want it to be banned (its extremely annoying and can turn games in luck fest) but i dont think its relevant enough to deserve a ban
I recognise how annoying is to face a set up Cacturne in sand. But being annoying doesnt mean its broken. Confusion, all sub seeding pokemon, rock slide chain flinching or paralysis chain turn miss are equally annoying but not ban worthy because in the long turn they're also unreliable to depend on. If sand veil is bannable in ADV we may as well then also ban swagger, leech seed, baton pass chains especially with smeargle ingrain and the list goes on. Its been open and like that since the beginning.
Billy Shatner, the player that abuses 2x sand veil in the video link you posted is also getting stomped in other games by playing suboptimal pokemon like cacnea as much as he lucks people out.
CZ's team on the otherhand is much better structured and is favored by the metagame atm, sand veil is just the cherry on top on the cake. (Setting up on Celebi, absence of Rest talk Zapdos favors leech seed spams as you get more PP and a pokemon less to worry about walling you, ect)
I agree to an extend that clauses that were checked and banned in next generations need to be checked if they could also be applied in the previous ones if anything. Without this meaning that being broken somewhere is also broken everywhere. You need to consider a lot of variables such as which pokemon can do it, what counters it, how often does it cause a different game result and so on. Comparing Garchomp DPP and Cacturne ADV is like comparing an apple with a strawberry. At least both can be eaten, right? I personally don't think Cacturne itself and only, is worthy of a ban. Despite never using Caturne before myself, I did play against a lot of them in the ladder lately without having many troubles with full OU teams.
I recognise how annoying is to face a set up Cacturne in sand. But being annoying doesnt mean its broken. Confusion, all sub seeding pokemon, rock slide chain flinching or paralysis chain turn miss are equally annoying but not ban worthy because in the long turn they're also unreliable to depend on. If sand veil is bannable in ADV we may as well then also ban swagger, leech seed, baton pass chains especially with smeargle ingrain and the list goes on. Its been open and like that since the beginning.
Billy Shatner, the player that abuses 2x sand veil in the video link you posted is also getting stomped in other games by playing suboptimal pokemon like cacnea as much as he lucks people out.
CZ's team on the otherhand is much better structured and is favored by the metagame atm, sand veil is just the cherry on top on the cake. (Setting up on Celebi, absence of Rest talk Zapdos favors leech seed spams as you get more PP and a pokemon less to worry about walling you, ect)
I agree to an extend that clauses that were checked and banned in next generations need to be checked if they could also be applied in the previous ones if anything. Without this meaning that being broken somewhere is also broken everywhere. You need to consider a lot of variables such as which pokemon can do it, what counters it, how often does it cause a different game result and so on. Comparing Garchomp DPP and Cacturne ADV is like comparing an apple with a strawberry. At least both can be eaten, right? I personally don't think Cacturne itself and only, is worthy of a ban. Despite never using Caturne before myself, I did play against a lot of them in the ladder lately without having many troubles with full OU teams.
Once again people are being confused by something thats really quite simple. The ability sand veil itself is what is uncompetitive, not Cacturne.
I have yet to see one convincing rebuttal against the bolded statement.
While you can certainly make a good argument for it, context is also important for an ability if you're going to call it uncompetitive. For example, if Wonder Guard was on stuff other than Shedinja you might be able to make an argument for uncompetitiveness due to the ability to "just win" in certain contexts (for example a pokemon with more than 1 HP and access to Rest would be flat out capable of winning whenever the opponent ran out of super effective moves), but since Shedinja itself has shortcomings that outweigh Wonder Guard's arguable uncompetitiveness it's not really something you can suggest be banned without being laughed at.
I don't have any real personal opinion on whether or not SV should be banned in ADV, but if Cacturne is the best user of SV and Cacturne isn't uncompetitive then you can probably make a fairly convincing argument that SV isn't uncompetitive enough to be banned.
If theres an intelligent argument for having such an uncompetitive ability in ADV, that isnt "Cacturne is bad" or "I secretly use cacturne on ladder and don't want my undeserved wins taken away", i'd really like to hear it.
ofc u gotta consider the ability alongside the pkmn
Best one I can make is that the users of Sand Veil are underwhelming enough overall while still providing a valuable niche on those that have Sand Veil as their only ability that it's not worth banning due to lack of overall impact weighed vs the collateral.
Of course this is a subjective argument so naturally it's not really particularly convincing, but it's the best I can come up with.
I disagree with this. Mechanics, Pokemon, moves, abilities, items, etc. all change with each generation. If something that wasn't problematic for generations is suddenly being abused in the current one, why would we need to retroactively "fix" what used to be acceptable? Take Swagger, for example. It's been claused out for the past two gens, but that was never even considered during GSC - DPP. In this case, Prankster's what pushed it over the edge. This sort of thing should always be case-by-case.ADV should not be any different, and the bans made in future gens should be retrospectively backdated to past gens too. Simple as that.