I don't mind a ban actually but their activation chance is not worth the usage.
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How many layers of hax are you on?
masterful use of thesaurus.com
Well I've said that for years. It makes no sense to me to ban a subpar ability (Seriously, if you had the choice of any ability on every mon would you really pick Sand Veil?), it's just the usual scrub whining about "hax" because for some reason people can't seem to wrap their head about Pokémon being a game of probabilities and not absolutes. Sand Veil literally does nothing on its own, so why are we effectively banning Cacturne and not, oh, Tyranitar which not only enables the abuse of Sand Veil but is also borderline oppressively good in its own right? At the least, a complex ban both allows viable usage of the "problem" mons (more applicable to future gens, where the evasion mons are better, but Cacturne has a unique typing and niche uses too) and is in-line with the way Smogon handled Swift Swim and friends in the past. I like it better that way anyway, because it opens the door for people to cover team weaknesses with niche choices like Cacturne vs Sand, Kingdra vs Rain, without totally removing them from play even when not intentionally abusing their abilities.
The better player doesn't always win, they simply win more often. That's true even when you throw out the more conscious decisions to roll the dice (abusing Evasion abilities or Brightpowder, using more powerful but less accurate attacs, etc.) because random status still exists, crits are a thing, and so on. Not that I'm a big Gen 3 guy, the choice either way doesn't impact me much so feel free to ignore my opinion, but the idea of banning Sand Veil is scrub talk. Yes, you will sometimes lose games to it and it'll piss you off and it sucks but it'll be more than made up for by the games you win because your opponent is using Cacturne! That's how statistics work!
Once you acknowledge that basic fact, you learn to control your emotions when you do get haxed out of an otherwise likely win. It's fine, you should win the next one. Maybe you get haxed out of a tournament early, but the majority of players won't and eventually the tournament winner will probably be someone who didn't rely on an inferior strategy. There is no need to ban these strategies as they self-select themselves out of the competitive metagame, either as players stop using them or those players lose more often and rarely find themselves topping the ladder or deep in tourney brackets.
Evasion abilities are bad because they require a secondary enabler to literally work at all; moves are another matter. Brightpowder is bad (and Quick Claw too) and I'm glad that ban was eventually reversed. -_- And boy oh boy, the future Swagger ban makes me want to puke. (Literally banning confusion, except Swagger isn't even the best move in its class... just the most accessible.) But hey, the prevailing ban-happy attitude is exactly why I don't play current-gen OU anymore. :/
The better player doesn't always win, they simply win more often. That's true even when you throw out the more conscious decisions to roll the dice (abusing Evasion abilities or Brightpowder, using more powerful but less accurate attacs, etc.) because random status still exists, crits are a thing, and so on. Not that I'm a big Gen 3 guy, the choice either way doesn't impact me much so feel free to ignore my opinion, but the idea of banning Sand Veil is scrub talk. Yes, you will sometimes lose games to it and it'll piss you off and it sucks but it'll be more than made up for by the games you win because your opponent is using Cacturne! That's how statistics work!
Once you acknowledge that basic fact, you learn to control your emotions when you do get haxed out of an otherwise likely win. It's fine, you should win the next one. Maybe you get haxed out of a tournament early, but the majority of players won't and eventually the tournament winner will probably be someone who didn't rely on an inferior strategy. There is no need to ban these strategies as they self-select themselves out of the competitive metagame, either as players stop using them or those players lose more often and rarely find themselves topping the ladder or deep in tourney brackets.
Evasion abilities are bad because they require a secondary enabler to literally work at all; moves are another matter. Brightpowder is bad (and Quick Claw too) and I'm glad that ban was eventually reversed. -_- And boy oh boy, the future Swagger ban makes me want to puke. (Literally banning confusion, except Swagger isn't even the best move in its class... just the most accessible.) But hey, the prevailing ban-happy attitude is exactly why I don't play current-gen OU anymore. :/
As someone who absolutely hates facing cacturne and actually considers the pokemon to be quite effective even without the haxy nature of its ability, I don't think sand veil deserves a ban. Ban worthy doesn't mean annoying, for something to be legitimately ban worthy the metagame should literally not be able to deal with it with degree of consistency. That is absolutely not true about sand veil in ADV. In order to determine this, yes you do need to look at the individual pokemon that have access to it because looking at the ability in a vacuum doesn't allow you to say whether or not the metagame can handle it. As it is an ability, sand veil can only be too good for the metagame if the pokemon that use it make it so and cacturne being the only real example doesn't do that. It struggles vs offensive teams as it will have a hard time setting itself up in the presence of faster mons and even stall teams can deal with it by just phazing it with skarm or whatever until you're able to set up your win con. It's annoying and just like anything else, it can win games, but that doesn't mean that it is even remotely stopping ADV from being a playable metagame.
Also banning ttar shouldn't even be joked about. It's not broken, it's just the best, there's a huge difference.
Also banning ttar shouldn't even be joked about. It's not broken, it's just the best, there's a huge difference.
In regards to considering the effects of Sand Veil to other chance elements within the scope of the team builder, it's important to consider that it does not require a move to reap the benefits. Each move slot is a precious commodity; you are losing a lot of equity running sets with status abuse and like moves (i.e. T-Wave, etc.). Strictly looking at the moves that have additional effects worth building around, like cutting speed, you're probably getting the value of the move back through its support of your other team members that are likely inferior choices without the assistance of that particular move. If that isn't the case, the result is a sub-optimal team. There is no gamble generated from having a certain ability, except in the irrelevant cases where there is a viable alternative that fits a separate set of needs.
That being said, I'm not an advocate of modifying old gens without causation. I don't think action should be taken unless there is data that shows the strategy is broken in a large context. Cosmetic changes present a silent method of removing viable counter-play options that balance the overall metagame, thereby affecting the trends in a small but impactful way. Every tiering change has unintended side effects and should only be reserved for necessary problems.
That being said, I'm not an advocate of modifying old gens without causation. I don't think action should be taken unless there is data that shows the strategy is broken in a large context. Cosmetic changes present a silent method of removing viable counter-play options that balance the overall metagame, thereby affecting the trends in a small but impactful way. Every tiering change has unintended side effects and should only be reserved for necessary problems.
Sand Veil and friends don't require a move, but they also don't do anything innately and require an entire second pokemon (four moves!) to use at all. (Unless, of course, you actually do choose to use a weather move.) Sand Veil is hardly an ability to build around, compared to oh I dunno Swift Swim for example, and in the context of Gen 3 specifically there are no worthless abusers anyway.
Regardless, the real problem is permanent weather in Gens 3-5, not the more widely available weather-based abilities that abuse them.
Regardless, the real problem is permanent weather in Gens 3-5, not the more widely available weather-based abilities that abuse them.
I have to highly disagree on your statement. I can say that from experience, because I've accidentally used it several times, as a result of me forgetting to change my ability to Rough Skin. Now, the main problem with this is that it changes 100% accurate moves to 75% accurate moves, correct? But this is about Cacturne. While the argument of "Just run Tyranitar" exists, (To get the sand up) I don't feel like that's really a good enough argument. Also, if you're good at what you are doing, you'll know how to work around such a threatening strategy, similar to paraflinch Togekiss in generation 4. All in all, it's just I feel that it should be something you know how to work around as a player, knowing how to work around the misses, which is why I think it shouldn't be banned.
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Water Absorb is Cacturne's hidden ability, and so is not obtainable in gen 3.
Oh, ty, it's been a while since I've played ADV lol.
That narrator has such a soothing, stud-like voice! I bet he's exceptionally handsome. :)
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
Cacturne avoided the attack!
Cacturne used Hidden Power!
The opposing Aerodactyl lost 44% of its health!
The sandstorm is raging.
Cacturne restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 22
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
Cacturne avoided the attack!
Cacturne used Hidden Power!
The opposing Aerodactyl lost 46% of its health!
The sandstorm is raging.
Cacturne restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 23
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
Cacturne avoided the attack!
Cacturne used Hidden Power!
The opposing Aerodactyl lost 10% of its health!
The opposing Aerodactyl fainted!
Please ban this retarded cancer good lord
Cacturne avoided the attack!
Cacturne used Hidden Power!
The opposing Aerodactyl lost 44% of its health!
The sandstorm is raging.
Cacturne restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 22
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
Cacturne avoided the attack!
Cacturne used Hidden Power!
The opposing Aerodactyl lost 46% of its health!
The sandstorm is raging.
Cacturne restored a little HP using its Leftovers!
Turn 23
The opposing Aerodactyl used Rock Slide!
Cacturne avoided the attack!
Cacturne used Hidden Power!
The opposing Aerodactyl lost 10% of its health!
The opposing Aerodactyl fainted!
Please ban this retarded cancer good lord
tbf I've also seen that happen in other Aero vs [insert mon here] scenarios cuz Rock Slide is a terrible move lol
so that this isn't just a shitpost: A ban should only occur here if it starts affecting high-stakes tournament matches. That tends to be the usual measuring stick for when determining if something needs to happen in past gen stuff, especially in a metagame that only sees a relatively small amount of matches in a year (SPL, WCoP and Classic, the latter of which being the most significant).
If a ban were to occur, the only proper course of action would be to Clause out Sand Veil under Evasion Clause, banning Cacturne would be kind of ludicrous.
so that this isn't just a shitpost: A ban should only occur here if it starts affecting high-stakes tournament matches. That tends to be the usual measuring stick for when determining if something needs to happen in past gen stuff, especially in a metagame that only sees a relatively small amount of matches in a year (SPL, WCoP and Classic, the latter of which being the most significant).
If a ban were to occur, the only proper course of action would be to Clause out Sand Veil under Evasion Clause, banning Cacturne would be kind of ludicrous.
Preface: I'm an old 386 OU player (I always find it funny it's never referred to as 386 anymore) who hasn't played in many many years and I know NOTHING.
But was just having a read on here on a nostalgia trip around a few games I used to play.
IIRC, "complex bans" didn't exist until way-post the whole Garchomp DPP thing. What is a complex ban? The banning of moves/abilities etc. In the 386 days, the thought process was "if its OP ban the mon" and that's it. To retroactively ban stuff now based on future stuff... seems strange to me, like you are fundamentally changing a very old meta. But obviously you are competing in tourneys today using it, so of course it shouldn't be above scruntiny... its easy for me to say when I haven't skarmblissed or McGared or Boah'd in years (do those nicknames still exist? has the meta changed much from the old old days?)
But on another old nostalgia trip I did a few years ago I seem to remember that you banned Baton Pass in 386?
PS I like the comment someone made about no more accidental sand veil on Dugtrio, the number of netbattle matches I won when I just paused, breathed, and checked if my opponents Duggy actually had Arena Trap (was that the abilities name? you know what I mean), and smiled hard when I realised I could switch.
PSS: Although I basically contributed nothing to this discussion, this was a fun post to type! Takes me back to the good old days, thanks for tolerating me so I could feel useful in pokemon again!
But was just having a read on here on a nostalgia trip around a few games I used to play.
IIRC, "complex bans" didn't exist until way-post the whole Garchomp DPP thing. What is a complex ban? The banning of moves/abilities etc. In the 386 days, the thought process was "if its OP ban the mon" and that's it. To retroactively ban stuff now based on future stuff... seems strange to me, like you are fundamentally changing a very old meta. But obviously you are competing in tourneys today using it, so of course it shouldn't be above scruntiny... its easy for me to say when I haven't skarmblissed or McGared or Boah'd in years (do those nicknames still exist? has the meta changed much from the old old days?)
But on another old nostalgia trip I did a few years ago I seem to remember that you banned Baton Pass in 386?
PS I like the comment someone made about no more accidental sand veil on Dugtrio, the number of netbattle matches I won when I just paused, breathed, and checked if my opponents Duggy actually had Arena Trap (was that the abilities name? you know what I mean), and smiled hard when I realised I could switch.
PSS: Although I basically contributed nothing to this discussion, this was a fun post to type! Takes me back to the good old days, thanks for tolerating me so I could feel useful in pokemon again!
The presence of RNG by itself has never been and will never be sufficient justification to ban something in competitive Pokemon. Were that no longer the case, there would still be far more critical targets in ADV than Cacturne.
I recognize that randomness is inherently anti-competitive by definition, but there's layers of RNG and other retardations you'd need to peel off before you made an exception for lowly Cacturne. And I'm not in favor of that project so I can't be in favor of this one.
I recognize that randomness is inherently anti-competitive by definition, but there's layers of RNG and other retardations you'd need to peel off before you made an exception for lowly Cacturne. And I'm not in favor of that project so I can't be in favor of this one.
The difference between Cacturne and monsters like Garchomp and Gliscor in their respective formats is the fact that besides EXTREME LUCK (like avoiding stuff 2-3 times in a row) Cacturne can't do anything particular. It has shallowish movepool, it's slow, has rather bad typing and actualy the only thing working for it are 115/115 offenses. One must be cautious to play against Cacturne, but on the other hand it can't hurt you if you play smart, right?