Yeah, we already have 60+ pokemon in BL... lets test what we have now, and try to add pokemon to correct the problem instead of remove pokemon.
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DP Tier Discussion Thread - BL and UU
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lulz, Scyther is interesting because I fought against one the other day, he got a swords dance in as I switched in my Quagsire and he OHKO'd it with a Life Orbed Aerial Ace. When a physical attacker can OHKO a physical tank, problems may arise.. >_>
It can also Baton Pass both SD and Agility, U-Turn out of any trouble with base 105 speed which beats everything save Electrode/Persian/Purugly/Scarfed pokes, and can take down Aggron and Probopass with Brick Break. I can see it causing problems.
No, see, the problem in UU right now is that all the decent walls keep getting promoted to BL, and all we're left with anymore if a couple of bulky waters and tonnes of sweepers.
We need more walls. If there was some decent walls that aren't weak to flying, bug, or fight, Scyther and Pinsir could be kept under control. It's not fun when you can destroy an entire team with one fast pokemon. Garchomp can't 6-0 after a SD in OU, and Herra can't 6-0 in OU either. Why? They have huge walls up there. I think all the sweepers right now are in the right places... but we need to stock up on walls.
I think some good candidates could be Shuckle, Steelix, Cloyster
Isn't Shuckle already UU?
Cloyster = Fighting weak.
Steelix = Fighting weak, although he at least can take a few hits.
It doesn't resist Aerial Ace (Scyther's strongest attack when boosted by Technician). Gligar still isn't a real counter to Pinsir either (IIRC it gets 1HKO'd by a SD'd LO Stone Edge even with max HP/def).
Quagsire had prior damage (or wasn't running max hp/def +nature), right? Even with LO and Adamant the highest damage I'm getting on MK's calc is 76.40% - 89.85% (technician doesn't work, so I'm substituting a base 90 flying type attack).
Personally...I'm leaning towards Scyther being BL. It can be a very effective BPer (Swords Dance, 105 base speed), SD sweeper (Tech AA, X-Scissor, and Brick Break hits a lot of UU for neutral at least, only thing it can't hit IIRC is Rotom), or even reversaler (no SS/Hail in UU and it has Night Slash for coverage). Also, though I automaticially think of Scyther as being a pokemon that dies to any random attack, it's defenses are actually 70/80/80, so it can easily take a neutral hit or even an SE (non-rock) one if it's not backed up by STAB or a high offense score.
Without BP, Scyther's position in UU would be more debatable (similar to what it'd be like for Floatzel). But with BP factored in, Scyther's versatility and power is just too high. Torkoal is the only real pokemon that can counter it.
After a SD, with LO (+nature and 252 hp/def on opponents):
Pelipper: 76.23% - 89.81% from Tech AA (83.64% - 98.46% with Adamant)
Gastrodon: 73.47% - 86.38% from Tech AA (80.52% - 94.84% with Adamant)
Aggron: 104.94% - 123.55% from BB
Torkoal: 56.69% - 66.86% from Tech AA (62.21% - 73.26% if Adamant)
Quagsire: 69.54% - 81.98% from Tech AA (76.40% - 89.85% if Adamant)
Hitmontop: 126.64% - 149.01% from Tech AA, intimidate included
Shuckle: 41.39% - 48.77% from Tech AA (45.08% - 53.28% if Adamant)
Cloyster: 59.54% - 70.07% from BB (65.13% - 76.64% if Adamant)
Omastar: 68.60% - 80.81% from BB (75.29% - 88.66% if Adamant)
Sudowoodo: 72.67% - 85.76% from BB (79.65% - 93.90% if Adamant)
Blastoise: 68.23% - 80.39% from Tech AA (74.86% - 88.12% if Adamant)
Walrein: 69.58% - 81.84% from BB (76.18% - 89.62% if Adamant)
Claydol: 144.14% - 169.44% from X-Scissor
Golem: 63.19% - 74.18% from BB (69.23% - 81.32% if Adamant)
As you can see from the calculations, Scyther's 2HKOing every wall except Shuckle and has a high chance of a 1HKO on many of them with support from Spikes/SR.
Also, doing these calculations made me notice something - Scyther doesn't use X-Scissor a whole lot if it's using Technician. With that extra moveslot, it could throw in BP (if it did run into Torkoal), or even Roost to heal.
I agree that steelix should be back UU. It would do a fantastic job keeping scyther at bay... since it can learn rock moves, it would work...
Stealth rock is always an option... >:) Steelix has as much defense as regirock O_O... oh yeah, and a better type.
I think scyther is a bit too powerful in UU, it is a viable option in OU.
But i have like 5 posts so...
Magcargo is a good counter too. Acid armor and recover are nice. but at base 50 HP, it would not apreciate a Swords Danced brick break. at least it has a chance of burnin scyther.
EDIT: uh... what does LO and IIRC stand for anyways?
Stealth rock is always an option... >:) Steelix has as much defense as regirock O_O... oh yeah, and a better type.
I think scyther is a bit too powerful in UU, it is a viable option in OU.
But i have like 5 posts so...
Magcargo is a good counter too. Acid armor and recover are nice. but at base 50 HP, it would not apreciate a Swords Danced brick break. at least it has a chance of burnin scyther.
EDIT: uh... what does LO and IIRC stand for anyways?
it has base 120 defense.
80 Special defense
but only 80 special attack, with no EVs thats like hardly 200.would flamethrower OHKO?
@skiddle -thanks that helps
i calculated: flamethrower does 74.3 % - 87.18 %
Fire blast would do 93% and up. Overheat seals the deal. Ancientpower does the same as fire blast.
The calcs are with 0 special attack vs 0 special defense EV'd pokes. Magacargo would have about 198 special attack, exactly the same as scythers neutral special defense.
80 Special defense
but only 80 special attack, with no EVs thats like hardly 200.would flamethrower OHKO?
@skiddle -thanks that helps
i calculated: flamethrower does 74.3 % - 87.18 %
Fire blast would do 93% and up. Overheat seals the deal. Ancientpower does the same as fire blast.
The calcs are with 0 special attack vs 0 special defense EV'd pokes. Magacargo would have about 198 special attack, exactly the same as scythers neutral special defense.
LO stands for "life orb" and IIRC stands for "If I Recall Correctly"
Magcargo is actually an interesting option. It's in 121 DEF tier, which is nice, and has Recover, and could burn scyther. Interesting. I'll run a quick damage calc...
Ouch. It's like 60% damage Brick Break WITHOUT the life orb boost. Not a good counter.
@ seds: Flamethrower would not OHKO.
Magcargo is actually an interesting option. It's in 121 DEF tier, which is nice, and has Recover, and could burn scyther. Interesting. I'll run a quick damage calc...
Ouch. It's like 60% damage Brick Break WITHOUT the life orb boost. Not a good counter.
@ seds: Flamethrower would not OHKO.
Remember though, Scyther still has to switch in to actually be able to do any damage to anything. That's the hard part, because Stealth Rock is still there in UU, and Scyther gets 50% sliced off every time it comes in. I know that's useful for setting up Reversal, but with Stealth Rock in play, how's it ever gonna actually find time to Swords Dance and have Life Orb without getting only about 2 hits in?
Swords Dance Scyther does sound really good with those calculations, but I suppose it works well with a spinner on your team. But the double stealth rock weakness is probably the reason it isn't BL right now.
Swords Dance Scyther does sound really good with those calculations, but I suppose it works well with a spinner on your team. But the double stealth rock weakness is probably the reason it isn't BL right now.
When it's your lead.
My Jolly Scyther, w/ focus sash, basically SDanced without fear, and then began owning everything. I usually got *at minimum* two to three kills out of it.
Scyther is unstoppable in UU, unless we bring down some sweet walls. Oh, Fishin: if Scyther lacks X-scissor, can Claydol wall it for long? probably not...
I'll do the calcs myself, jsut a sec. Yep, Claydol is guarenteed two 2HKO
My Jolly Scyther, w/ focus sash, basically SDanced without fear, and then began owning everything. I usually got *at minimum* two to three kills out of it.
Scyther is unstoppable in UU, unless we bring down some sweet walls. Oh, Fishin: if Scyther lacks X-scissor, can Claydol wall it for long? probably not...
I'll do the calcs myself, jsut a sec. Yep, Claydol is guarenteed two 2HKO
I'm inclined to agree that that is your opponents fault. As there is no infinite SS or Hail in UU, any player should always pack a few Quick Attacks or Choice Scarfer to pick off any Focus Sashers/Reversal/Flailers.
I guess Golem could survive a Swords Danced BB, and KO him back with any Rock attack too.
I don't think the problem here is that we're making BL too big, but that we're making UU too small. If we continue down the same path of moving UU walls to BL and moving the UU sweepers to BL because there are no walls in UU, then we have a major problem. I mean this is the same thing we tried to avoid with OU and Ubers right?
I'm going to stop you there.
As of now Drapion, Steelix, Torterra have already been long thrown down as candidates for the UU environment and Claydol/Cloyster are effectively UU anyway.
At the moment if you haven't even noticed what your suggesting is we bring Skarmory, Forretrees, Dusknoir, Bronzong and Scizor into UU. If you don't get it than go get a clue, there ARE NO WALLS LEFT IN BL TO BRING DOWN. (Yes I know Scizor is BL but its not as if it wouldn't turn UU on its head)
D/P is more offensive not because of higher attack/move power but higher coverage so the only way you'll ever be stopping sweeps is by good resistances and a revenge kill. True walls DO NOT exist in UU being they're all OU for a pretty damn good reason. D/P is about having multiple tools at your disposal and good types for switching in. I'm inclined to believe its more to do with the general quality of the battlers available at the moment.
Scyther has no place going to BL, it can do the damage but it eats Stealth Rock like crap. Has multiple weaknesses which negate its awesome stats to top it off. Force it out once and its likely to never come back with any effect again.
Furthermore you're not even trying hard enough for ways of stopping it, in UU you think outside the box for unconventional methods if the obvious doesn't work.
See above about there being no walls.
But for the most part a good statement.
Having 4 generations of experience, 3 gens worth of UU, 4 of standard, and even 2 in 00bers I find the quality of battlers in 00bers and UU can often be a mixed bag. You can distinguish a newbie to UU when they attempt playing it like an OU-lite with high powered sweeper + walls.
I have severe reservations about any 'tests' in a currently infant D/P UU environment.
So I'm following Lee's lead here.
Pinsir is far, far closer to unstoppable than Scyther is. That you sweeped an entire team with Scyther is a testament to your opponent's ineptitude, not Scyther's power. No Scarfer or priority moves and no bulky pokemon like Walrein, Golem, Relicanth, or Lapras who, even with a weakness can take an SD Brick Break? No Altaria to laugh off your Bug move and Brick Break? No Gligar to wall you in general? No Muk, Swalot, Arbok, Nidoking/Queen, or Tentacruel to ruin your day?
Speaking of guarenteed 2HKOs: Claydol's Ice Beam on Scyther.
It's definitely true that Scyther is stoppable. It's not exactly hard to hit one of it's weaknesses, SR is there and really screws Scyther up (though it affects something like Scyther that's going for a straight sweep less so than, say...Articuno, who's going to want to switch in often to take hits), and Focus Sashes are a lot better in UU thanks to the lack of damaging weather so it's possible to survive a normal 1HKO and revenge him.
In my eyes it's the fact that he's both a very dangerous sweeper and an effective BPer (the fact that he can do both fairly effectively with SD/AA/BB/BP deserves a mention as well) that makes him potentially too strong for UU.
In my eyes it's the fact that he's both a very dangerous sweeper and an effective BPer (the fact that he can do both fairly effectively with SD/AA/BB/BP deserves a mention as well) that makes him potentially too strong for UU.
In case you didn't notice, there is NO SUCH THING AS A UU POKE THAT CAN SURVIVE TWO SCYTHER HITS. Nothing is a safe switch into it. If Scyther can kill one of your pokes. and dent another before going down, it's already done it's job. Since nothing can switch into Scyther, I'm afraid it's too much.
EDIT: lulz, maybe Regirock could switch into it :P
In case you didn't notice, most of us here have been playing UU longer than you have skippy. Thanks for bringing in your high-level condescension and stupidity though. I especially like your ALL CAPS emphasis.
Your (unprovided) calculations assume a Swords Dance while using the most effective attack on whatever switches in.
Here's a hint: If Scyther can't OHKO it, Scyther's HP will decrease. If Scyther is slower, the number of hits it will get in is zero. If you're using Focus Sash to get in a Swords Dance, this means the benchmark Scyther has to hit to remain useful is a OHKO, not a 2HKO.
But then, you'd know all of that if you wern't busy screaming that a Swords Danced Scyther can at least in your mind, 2HKO every UU pokemon.
Err, Drifblim?
Jolly SD'd LO Tech AA (252 atk) vs 252 hp/def + nature Driftblim: 77.98% - 91.87%
A CB set needs Adamant to really threaten a 2HKO with AA, though (45.24% - 53.17% with Jolly, 47.02% - 55.16% from Night Slash). Also...last time I checked, Driftblim isn't faster than Scyther without Unburden.
lol, drifblim is NOT faster than Scyther and if a SD'd LO Aerial Ace can OHKO Quagsire/Kangaskhan (as so graciously demonstrated in my last match against a Scyther ._.) it'll probably kill it too.
Oh Lordy!
And it does have base 105 speed, meaning it will outspeed almost everything. Unless you have a designated Scyther counter set aside in your team somewhere, it can sweep and pwn. And there were calculations on it, just another page back.
So what you're saying is that Scyther 2HKOs Drifblim with its strongest neutral attack only after somehow managing to get a Swords Dance in.
Thanks for proving our point.
Sorry, your opponents are just stupid if they're getting sweeped by Scyther.
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