Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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Tell me more about Guzzlord. The consensus in its thread seemed to be that it wasn't very good, but is it turning out to be bulky enough for the meta with that HP? RestTalk is the set most people are running?

Also, more Replays please! :)
 
thing has paper thin defenses, even with them supplemented. Lots of HP but still gets rolled by SE attacks. I mean it's solid but it isn't some unreal godwall. Like yeah lop still nearly OHKOs you, char-y's Focus Blast will still grab +50%. Upper echelon tank, probably. Rest/Crunch/Dclaw/HammerArm here.
 
Upper echelon tank in OU with those defenses?? I mean, at least it has the capability to do things to its opponents, unlike Toxapex...
 
Toxapex is a wall, inherently most walls don't do a ton of damage. Toxapex also has the tools to make sure the damage doesn't come back his way too badly (haze/toxic) so it's kinda null.

With Guzzlord, you have to remember his hp is naturally 587, no investment. Fully invested alomomola is 534. And Guzz still has better Spdef. He's going to end up with 205/225 in one or the other stat (both 53) if you invest defense, so it's not a lost cause. And yeah his damage back is definitely that of a high-end tank. It's actually pretty impressive what he can deal, and he, unlike most UBs, has the movepool to take advantage of it.
 
My experience with Guzzlord consisted of Mega Charizard-Y 2HKOing it with Focus Blast while taking <50% from Crunch. Considering how amazing all the Tapus are as offensive fairies, I don't see Guzzlord being super great. The unfortunate weaknesses its typing saddles it with really inhibit its ability to be a good wall which is unfortunate.

Anyway quick impressions of the OU meta:
  • Aegislash is still borked and needs to die. I don't think it has really changed at all from Gen 6. Maybe this could change in the future but I really don't see it lasting out the week.
  • Pheromosa is extremely good and is probably next in line to get banned once Aegislash kicks the bucket. There's a couple other things that can take it on but the strong U-turn + incredible overall power make it super annoying and it has just enough coverage to beat almost everything that could try to stand against it.
  • Rain teams are pretty deadly now. Pelipper + Dugtrio is a scary combo. Early effectiveness was somewhat limited since there are a ton of Mega Venusaur running around right now.
  • Celesteela is surprisingly awesome - it's basically Skarm that trades Spikes and Roost for better offensive presence and way better special bulk. It still has good recovery with LeechTect and it manages to grab 120 BP Heavy Slam against most Pokemon due to being so ridiculously heavy, and it even gets Fire moves to not be spiker bait.
  • Tapus have been really common, which is expected I suppose - good stat distros with useful auto-terrain abilities, and 3/4 of them have awesome offensive presence. Tapu Koko in particular is quite the threat with how good its Speed is.
  • I played around some with Alolan Muk and I think it has some potential. Its typing is REALLY good against certain other typings (namely Psychics/Ghosts/Grasses) and it has a nice mix of bulk and offense. Poison Touch also makes Knock Off twice as annoying to switch into which I'm sure everyone will love.

Been enjoying myself so far!
 
It's hard to tell if Genesect and Greninja will be broken this gen or banworthy much, what with AG being the only playable meta at the moment, so I will be interested to see where that goes. Aegislash needs removing immediately though, as does Pheromosa.

Kartana is interesting because it's not as fast as to be unstoppable and its spec def is horrific, but its physical bulk and resistances make it hard to stop on that front, and even with middling power moves (strongest is the 90-power Leaf Blade excluding normal type attacks) it hits extremely hard off base 181 Attack and after a Beast Boost it can really dominate. Plus, a scarf set is quite possibly the game's best late-game cleaner, since a heavily weakened team will have a lot of trouble having anything to switch into it or take it on at +1. I think Kartana will probably be too much for OU though.

As for non-broken things, I'm having a hard time figuring out how Tapu Fini could be much use besides laying down misty terrain. It's bulky, sure, but there are better bulky water types out there, and Tapu Fini can't utilise Toxic or Scald to wear down / threaten switch-ins and physical threats thanks to its ability, which is a huge detriment to it. What does it really offer beyond other bulky waters, aside from supporting its team with status immunity?

Finally... why is Deoxys-D not a potential drop, but Aegislash is? That's just ridiculous to me, given how insanely centralising Aegis was and how passive Deo-D is. I think Deo-D is hardly gonna be a broken mon when it has stuff like Aegislash, Greninja, Genesect and Pheromosa running around everywhere.
 
MrCookiepants said:
I guess I should have expected everyone to be running Aegislash + Ultra Beasts + Tapu's instead of the more interesting stuff. Meh.
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Interesting like this? lol http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7anythinggoesbeta-478132304


Jokes aside here are my 2 cents.
  • Aegislash still seems as borked as ever if not worse then before.
  • I could see Greninja and Mega Mawile being resuspected and possibly kept around. Like was mentioned above Toxapex and some other drops give Greninja issue and there is of course speed creep. Mega Mawile has to rely on sucker punch a ton because it is dirt slow and with the nerf it misses out on KOs.
  • Not seeing a single talonflame is refreshing.
  • Pheromosa is a stronger Deoxys-S, a scarf set with no speed investment nets you special attack or attack boosts every kill whilst being faster than everything but other Pheromosa. Bring priority/aegislash or get destroyed pretty much.
  • Tapu Koko is a boss. Honestly most of the totem pokemons are really good due to the various field effects but Tapu Koko stands above the rest with its blistering speed and great movepool. Electric spam is honestly on the table because of it.
  • Thick Club Alolan Marowak checks so much with Lightningrod
Really enjoying this change of pace, Z-Moves add another layer of flexibility to everything I think they are going to move the meta in a positive direction.
 
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Heroes and Cons said:
Finally... why is Deoxys-D not a potential drop, but Aegislash is? That's just ridiculous to me, given how insanely centralising Aegis was and how passive Deo-D is. I think Deo-D is hardly gonna be a broken mon when it has stuff like Aegislash, Greninja, Genesect and Pheromosa running around everywhere.
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I think the song and dance around Deo has been done enough to where people can just say screw it, let's just leave it banned from the start. Meanwhile Aegislash is still relatively new to Pokemon.
 
I tried Ghost Silvally as a possible soft Pheromosa answer with Parting Shot and U-turn, but then it did under 30% to Mega Venusaur with STAB Multi Attack. Yeah, I was pretty disappointed to say the least.
 
I really like using Tapu Lele right now. A lot of people underestimated it at first glance but Psychic Terrain is insane. It's really versatile too and I just can't see myself using Mega-Gard over it.

Aegislash however needs to be banned. There are other mons to beat Pheromosa and it's pretty much unstoppable (other than Hoopa-U). It's just stunting the growth of the meta imo.
 
Celesteela weighs 999.9 kg and is the new heaviest Pokemon in the dex.

Celesteela @ Choice Band
Ability: Beast Boost
Adamant Nature
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
- Heavy Slam
- Seed Bomb / Earthquake
- Earthquake / Stone Edge
- Explosion

Thoughts? Seems bonkers to me as it can OHKO half the OU tier.
 
aegi and phero are the most ridiculous mons in the tier by far, followed after by magearna which doesnt die, has an absurd typing, stat spread and perfect movepool which lets it threaten literally everything in the tier, special moxie also makes it v difficult to keep up with especially on speed boosting sets. im not surprised this thing is super dumb though.

toxapex is jesus and so are tapus but im waiting for z moves to work properly because manaphy is gonna be absurd with em since it can crumble typical checks with zmove scald/surf or break offense with zmove rain dance

cool meta so far though
 
FullLifeGames said:
Can we get Mega Kangaskhan back? I really would want to see it, with it's nerved ability.
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Maybe it's just me but I don't think a guaranteed 200 damage per turn via Seismic Toss is a good idea as it will likely 2HKO most of OU with this or have more fun with Super Fang. (yes, I know it wasn't banned for that last gen). It will also still have access to Power-up Punch, Sucker Punch and most of its old toys. Plus, we have too many crazy offensive threats right now (looking at Phero, Aegis, Tapu, Kartana, Genesect, etc.) to even think of more unbans.
 
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People are acting like Aegislash dropping is Arceus descending from the heavens or something. The pokemon is good on its own merits; it was never particularly broken. IIRC the reason it got banned in the first place was for being over-centralizing because no other pokemon did what it could do as a defensive pivot. (Lando-T remains unbanned.)

People are playing against it for the first time in a few years, remembering King's Shield is a thing, and losing their shit. Of course many people are trying out the new (old?) toys that just dropped from Ubers. Of course it's a good pokemon. But you cannot judge whether or not it'll be over-centralizing based on two hours or even two days of a nascent meta. CAN NOT. That's called a rush to judgement.

It may prove to be over-centralizing again, but I will be extremely disappointed if Smogon succumbs to the hive mind and boots it (or others) out in under a week without EVEN TRYING to exercise their minds toward possibilities in the new meta or seeing how things shake out. This is not M-Salamence territory here.

TL;DR You are all making hasty judgements without sufficient experience in the Sun/Moon meta to make said judgements. Please, please, please slow down.

/rant
 
Where are all you people playing SM OU? I'm non main and I've only got the beta AG tier; am I missing something here?
 
Kakimori said:
People are acting like Aegislash dropping is Arceus descending from the heavens or something. The pokemon is good on its own merits; it was never particularly broken. IIRC the reason it got banned in the first place was for being over-centralizing because no other pokemon did what it could do as a defensive pivot. (Lando-T remains unbanned.)

People are playing against it for the first time in a few years, remembering King's Shield is a thing, and losing their shit. Of course many people are trying out the new (old?) toys that just dropped from Ubers. Of course it's a good pokemon. But you cannot judge whether or not it'll be over-centralizing based on two hours or even two days of a nascent meta. CAN NOT. That's called a rush to judgement.

It may prove to be over-centralizing again, but I will be extremely disappointed if Smogon succumbs to the hive mind and boots it (or others) out in under a week without EVEN TRYING to exercise their minds toward possibilities in the new meta or seeing how things shake out. This is not M-Salamence territory here.

TL;DR You are all making hasty judgements without sufficient experience in the Sun/Moon meta to make said judgements. Please, please, please slow down.

/rant
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Please tell me what does Aegislash give a shit about that made their debut in OU this generation. The fact that Aegislash can check Pheromosa while 1v1 against Tapus or Kartana doesn't help strengthen its case. It also got BETTER this generation with the King's Shield buff.
 
Random Passerby said:
Please tell me what does Aegislash give a shit about that made their debut in OU this generation. The fact that Aegislash can check Pheromosa while 1v1 against Tapus or Kartana doesn't help strengthen its case. It also got BETTER this generation with the King's Shield buff.
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God forbid a Steel pokemon should 1v1 fairies.

To answer your question, I don't know and I don't have to know. I never found Aegislash particularly difficult to deal with in the first place. But the beautiful thing about not knowing is we don't have to sit around making armchair theories: we can actually see how the meta shakes out in a week or two.

What I'm saying is: let's wait and see if your question has an answer.

What I'm saying is: LET'S FIND OUT.
 
Random Passerby said:
Please tell me what does Aegislash give a shit about that made their debut in OU this generation. The fact that Aegislash can check Pheromosa while 1v1 against Tapus or Kartana doesn't help strengthen its case. It also got BETTER this generation with the King's Shield buff.
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"it checks a few pokemon added this generation, ban"
???
i really dont understand your reasoning here. Are we just auomatically banning phermosa or kartana checks now because we can? The kings shield buff is incredibly minor, and you have no reason to be attacking aegi with moves its immune to anyways...
 
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