Metagame Metagame Discussion Thread

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I think the problem is that Physical Tapu Koko has its merits, but the gap in its attacking stats isn't wide enough to take attention off of its better coverage on Special/Mixed sets. Z-Mirror Move also seems counter productive since it's very dependent on the opponent's action to be anything more than a one time SD, and that's assuming you don't Mirror Move something that could backfire, like stealing a Stall Mon's Will-o-Wisp before they go into something like Heatran.
 
How about scarfGar?

He has the speed, he has the offense and he has the moveset to pull off a late game cleanup.

A typical Trick/SBall/SWave/FBlast would be pretty decent i reckon

scarfGar lacks the potential to KO reliably, sure it out speeds and has decent spatk, but it lacks that extra umph it needs to take out the more bulky mons that can hit back hard enough to take it down otherwise. Specs, expert belt, or life orb are better options.
 
scarfGar lacks the potential to KO reliably, sure it out speeds and has decent spatk, but it lacks that extra umph it needs to take out the more bulky mons that can hit back hard enough to take it down otherwise. Specs, expert belt, or life orb are better options.

Or SubHypnosis, kind of like MegaGengar in Ubers. It's not really hard to force a switch with Gengar and some stuff can't really touch him, especially behind Sub (like Toxapex or Chansey) so getting it up isn't really hard. Or force switch because of his good STAB attacks. And Hypnosis suddenly gain additional chance to hit, so it's far more reliable. Simple Sub / Hex / Sludge Bomb or Focus Blast / Hypnosis does the trick. Toxic Spikes support appreciated.
 
So, I don't know if this has been discussed before in this long thread but since Aegislash is back in it's rightful place now and rain has had a great resurgence, how does our old friend Kaputops fair against the current meta? How does it hold up to the much more popular Kingdra? And what is in your opinion, it's best current set? Life orb-all out attacker (with rapid spin maybe) or sd?
 
Or SubHypnosis, kind of like MegaGengar in Ubers. It's not really hard to force a switch with Gengar and some stuff can't really touch him, especially behind Sub (like Toxapex or Chansey) so getting it up isn't really hard. Or force switch because of his good STAB attacks. And Hypnosis suddenly gain additional chance to hit, so it's far more reliable. Simple Sub / Hex / Sludge Bomb or Focus Blast / Hypnosis does the trick. Toxic Spikes support appreciated.

I think Will-o-Wisp is significantly better here. Shadow Tag is the thing that makes SubHypnosis Mega Gengar so terrifying since your opponent cannot switch out. Your opponent can just switch against normal Gengar and use sleep clause to avoid further targets getting put to sleep. Then you're stuck with a weak Hex against their switch-in.
 
Actually, with Tapu Lele being everyone's favorite toy right now and Psychic spam seeing Gen 1 levels of resurgence, Dark-types including Weavile and Greninja are everywhere, so right now Gengar is legitimately a poor option to run.

I would argue Gengar's value as a revenge killer; especially with the number of Fairies around. Poison works on all the Tapus; and Ghost is as stupid of a coverage type as it was in Gen 6.

Gengar sure is harder to switch in than before; I'll give you that, but if Gengar can get in it still does as much work if not more than before.

And if you're that scared of being Suker Punched by Darks; just take advantage of Lele which as you say is everyone's favorite toy and the fact that it shuts down priority. Not many Dark STAB users outspeed Gengar or take a Focus Blast [Many don't even like Sludge Bomb]
 
volcanion.gif

Volcanion @ Grassium Z
Ability: Water Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 1 Atk / 30 SpA
- Steam Eruption
- Flamethrower / Fire Blast
- Solar Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]

I got wrecked by this thing earlier when I was using some fat balance team LOL. Personally I think Heatran is the better fat water lure atm because of Magma Storm shenanigans and its overall utility, but this Volcanion set is such a pain in the ass to deal with/switch into. Steam Eruption hits like a truck and burns everything, fat grasses like Tangrowth, Amoonguss, and Ferrothorn are fried by Flamethrower, and Bloom Doom destroys Fini, Rotom-W, and Suicune which normally just sit there and not give a fuck about Volcanion. Hidden Power Electric rounds off the set by smacking Mantine, Pelliper, and Toxapex which otherwise can tank this set out. Volcanion is in a bit of an odd place in the meta because it still faces a lot of competition as a wallbreaker/hole puncher, especially with Bloom Doom Heatran being very solid atm, but its typing defensively and offensively is pretty cool especially when it doesn't give a fuck about most Genesect sets, completely walls non Thunderbolt Magearna, and walls Mega Scizor which is a very solid Mega atm, and it gets plenty of free switch-ins against a lot of fat Pokemon like Fini, Mantine, and Celesteela. I can't see it being OU this generation honestly, but it's still a huge pain in the ass to switch into and dismantles a lot of balance cores, especially now that it has a way to finally hit fat waters.
 
There are two insanely useful mons from past gens. Crawdnaut and Amoonguss.

Crawdnaut is probably best and most versitale wallbreaker. I even think that it outclasses hoopa with it's ability to break through defensive cores. Lots of mons are giving now free turns (celesteela, ferrothron, toxapex, tapu fini and others) with protect and things like that giving opportunity to set up SD. It has just enough speed to hit all those annoying walls like rotom or lanod-t. And most important: +2 knock off deals massive damage to venusaur!

Amoonguss on the other hand is bulky mon that can fit into offensive teams. It gives amazing utility with clear somg (this is wining me game after game) which deals with porygons-z, z-rain dance manaphy (overrated set), CM tapu fini and others. It walls tapu koko, tapu bulu and tapu fini. Amazing mon!
 
Does anyone have a way through sableye stall? I didnt mind it last gen but now stall got so many supplements. Especially without mega lopunny its very easy to build sableye stall teams. Also the fairy Tapus struggle with teammates .
 
Or SubHypnosis, kind of like MegaGengar in Ubers. It's not really hard to force a switch with Gengar and some stuff can't really touch him, especially behind Sub (like Toxapex or Chansey) so getting it up isn't really hard. Or force switch because of his good STAB attacks. And Hypnosis suddenly gain additional chance to hit, so it's far more reliable. Simple Sub / Hex / Sludge Bomb or Focus Blast / Hypnosis does the trick. Toxic Spikes support appreciated.


I don't know, I think he's Over Shadowed (Lol) by the other ghost types of this gen. A-Marowak is running all over the place and is A hard wall to the tons of electric types and the Non-EQ Metagross you see running around, Decideye brings tons of defensive and Trap-Passing options to a team, allowing monsters like Xurxitree to set up on passages.
Also, while gengsr does benefit from the terrains, he's still going to have a glaring weakness (With Bulu he'all get wrecked by Bisharp/Sucker Punch & with Lele he gets hurt by EQ)

It just seems like Gengar is falling out of Relevance to me.
 
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I don't know, I think he's Over Shadowed (Lol) by the other ghost types of this gen. A-Marowak is running all over the place and is A hard wall to the tons of electric types and the Non-EQ Metagross you see running around, Decideye brings tons of defensive and Trap-Passing options to a team, allowing monsters like Xurxitree to set up on passages.
Also, while gengsr does benefit from the terrains, he's still going to have a glaring weakness (With Bulu he'all get wrecked by Bisharp/Sucker Punch & with Lele he gets hurt by EQ)

It just seems like Gengar is falling out of Relevance to me.
I'm not quite following your logic. Gengar does totally different things for a team than these other ghost types, and the fact that they've so prevalent is a good thing for Gengar, since it's fast and can OHKO them.
 
I don't know, I think he's Over Shadowed (Lol) by the other ghost types of this gen. A-Marowak is running all over the place and is A hard wall to the tons of electric types and the Non-EQ Metagross you see running around, Decideye brings tons of defensive and Trap-Passing options to a team, allowing monsters like Xurxitree to set up on passages.
Also, while gengsr does benefit from the terrains, he's still going to have a glaring weakness (With Bulu he'all get wrecked by Bisharp/Sucker Punch & with Lele he gets hurt by EQ)

It just seems like Gengar is falling out of Relevance to me.
Gengar revenge kills both of those mons though, and Decidueye can't trap pass since that mechanic was killled off a few gens ago. Outside of Ghost typing they don't share any role overlap with Gengar and he's still the best (by far) speedy Ghost type attacker in the tier.

Btw Psychic Terrain is infinitely better support for Gengar than Grassy Terrain. Not having to worry about priority is way better than the passive healing, EQ still does a ton to Gar and the damage reduction really only helps if you have to switch into a weak EQ or have to tank one near the end of the battle.

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 270-318 (104.2 - 122.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 204-242 (78.7 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
 
There are two insanely useful mons from past gens. Crawdnaut and Amoonguss.

Crawdnaut is probably best and most versitale wallbreaker. I even think that it outclasses hoopa with it's ability to break through defensive cores. Lots of mons are giving now free turns (celesteela, ferrothron, toxapex, tapu fini and others) with protect and things like that giving opportunity to set up SD. It has just enough speed to hit all those annoying walls like rotom or lanod-t. And most important: +2 knock off deals massive damage to venusaur!

Yeah except definitely not lol. Outside of Landorus there is nothing in the tier that compares to Hoopa-U's wallbreaking and hole punching capabilities. Crawdaunt is very strong and has priority sure, but Hoopa-U has an expansive movepool that covers practically anything relevant, insane offenses which lets it run mixed, physical, or special sets, and Dark Pulse/Hyperspace Fury are among the most spammable moves in the tier, even more than Knock Off considering that Megas and itemless mons have a potential to play around it. Hoopa also has great special bulk which lets it soft check a lot of special attackers and fire off hits, something Crawdaunt can't do due to its terrible bulk. Its Speed tier is also great for a wallbreaker, 80 compared to 55 is quite significant, and gives it the jump on every defensive threat + a few offensive Pokemon. Crawdaunt isn't versatile at all, in fact it's very linear considering it's always going to be running Jet, Knock, Crabhammer, and either SD or Crunch depending on if it's Band. Everyone knows what it's going to do, which is fine considering how dangerous it is, but Hoopa has the advantage of having so many move variations that it's not that easy to scout and by the time you do you've probably already lost a mon.

Crawdaunt is no doubt a cool Pokemon still, but it's definitely not anywhere near the level of Hoopa-U, and saying that it outclasses it is a huge over exaggeration. In fact, Crawdaunt is definitely not as useful as it was in ORAS because of the massive amounts of better breakers out there, and on top of that it has to worry about a few more checks/counters that it didn't really have before, particularly Koko, Fini, and Bulu, and the massive influx of Mega Venusaur/Mega Gyarados doesn't help it much either.

Amoonguss on the other hand is bulky mon that can fit into offensive teams. It gives amazing utility with clear somg (this is wining me game after game) which deals with porygons-z, z-rain dance manaphy (overrated set), CM tapu fini and others. It walls tapu koko, tapu bulu and tapu fini. Amazing mon!

Wait what are you smoking exactly? How is Z Rain Dance Manaphy an overrated set when that's like the only set you should really be running these days anyway lol. Tail Glow 3 attacks still has its merits I guess, but Z Rain Dance fixes the major problem that Manaphy usually has, which is actually threatening offense. Not only can Manaphy STILL break through stall and fat teams, but now it has the decision to late game sweep at +1 or just blow something completely out of the water (lol) with an extremely powerful Water-type move, doing insane amounts to even the fattest of walls. This set is what makes Manaphy so good right now, otherwise it wouldn't be nearly as insane as it is now. Z Rain Dance pushes it from a high A- Pokemon to like top A+ easily.
 
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Running a Z-Water Crystal also means you don't HAVE to go for Z-Rain Dance. You can also go for Z-WaterMove and after a TG and in the rain, that stuff obliterates common stall mons. The flexibility of the Z-crystal lets you decide whether or not you want Manaphy to beat offense or stall, but still have the option for either in any one game.
 
Any success at using physical Tapu Koko? It doesn't have much options, albeit it does hit very hard.
This is one set i found to be funny as hell:

Tapu Koko @ Flynium Z
Evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature

-Mirror Move
-Wild Charge
-Brave Bird/Acrobatics
-Roost

Z-Mirror Move gives you a SD boost, while mirrowing any action your opponent had last turn (which could lead to hilarious, effective and surprising moments). Wild Charge is an excedingly powerful move at +2 and Electric Terrain active. Brave Bird is there for coverage, which goes well with Roost (also provides an emergencial powerful move when you can't use Mirror Move for some reason). Acrobatics is a good alternative with no recoil once you use the Z-Move.

Thief could be on the last slot, it hits ghosts for some damage and steals the item; but no, don't use Thief.

Couple things about this. The Z Crystal doesn't disappear when you use the Z Move, so Acrobatics wouldn't be a good option. Mixed Tapu Koko with Electrium Z has seen some play, though. Z Wild Charge will nearly OHKO Chansey and Brave Bird can potentially 2HKO Mega Venusaur.
 
I honestly think Gengar benefits this gen from losing Levitate.

For example, against standard 4 attacks LO Gengar sets, Bisharp can either Pursuit-trap or revenge with Sucker Punch. But if Psychic Terrain is up, then Bisharp is in danger of eating a Focus Blast and dying without being even able to threaten a Sucker Punch. Banded Azumarill often threatens to KO Gengar with Aqua Jet with a little bit of chip, but again with Psychic Terrain, that can't happen and you can freely click Sludge Wave.

Grassy Terrain's EQ resistance is great for Gengar, and giving pseudo-Lefties (even if for only one turn) help alleviates LO recoil and passive hazards damage that Gengar now takes.

Electric Terrain doesn't benefit Gengar, and Misty Terrain is good for...stopping Thunder Wave and that's about it (so you fear Clef even less, which is nice), but all in all, being able to benefit from 2.5/4 Terrains is really good.

Losing levitate makes Icy wind Gengar lure more effective, opens up possible shuca lure, and it means you can trade more efficiently with destiny bond rather than playing cointoss between if Landorus / Gliscor / Landorus-T will use knock off or eq predicting switch since now they will always eq, netting ez destiny bind trades.

Also removes toxic spikes. it isn't a nerf on gengar just a different approach on how to use it, once the meta settles people will realize it ohko fini, lele, koko, and does 87% to fini sign me the fuck up hello
 
I'd say Gengar's enjoying how much Toxapex (and in some cases, Nihilego) is throwing around Toxic Spikes. Lele definitely should help it out, making it much scarier to 'mons who would previously check it due to priority.

Pheromosa is the favorite to throw up to Ubers since Aegislash left, but I haven't seen any signs Xurkitree and Kartana are going up.

Salazzle just doesn't really seem to be on the same level as Gengar, from what I've seen, and Nihilego is essentially just a suicide lead + surprise garchomp killer, depending on what you throw on it.
 
The likes of Greninja, Genesect, and Landorus-I are way better at everything Gengar hopes to do, and none of them are Pursuit fodder. Above all else, stronger, better threats are the reason Gengar isn't getting usage. Absorbing Toxic Spikes is pretty cool, but even a Poisioned Greninja is better than Gengar because it still has no good switch-ins whatsoever. Gengar will probably find its stride once we start seeing some balance in the tier, but the power disparity between offensive Pokemon is pretty clear at this point.
 
So what Tapu uses Natures maddness the best? I don't think Koko will ever use it since it already hits pretty hard and wants other moves to assist it. Fini seems like a great user of it for singles, while it would possible switch it out for Heal pulse in doubles. Lele I see liking it to help hit those Special tanks hard like Chansey. Bulu maybe, but it has such a massive attack and some great attacking moves with it that it may be hard to give up for Natures madness
 
Gengar also poses a danger to the Latis in a tie (or outspeed for HP Fire)
Hyper training now allows you to run every full maxed stats Pokémon even with hidden powers that usually force less IVs, since actual IVs are kept while numeric stats are maxed battle-only. So yeah, even HP Fire Latias will tie with Gengar.
 
So what Tapu uses Natures maddness the best? I don't think Koko will ever use it since it already hits pretty hard and wants other moves to assist it. Fini seems like a great user of it for singles, while it would possible switch it out for Heal pulse in doubles. Lele I see liking it to help hit those Special tanks hard like Chansey. Bulu maybe, but it has such a massive attack and some great attacking moves with it that it may be hard to give up for Natures madness

Lele destroys Special Sponges with Psyshock, anyway. Dark-types that could run SpDef are killed by Moonblast or Focus Blast. Assault Vest Alolan Muk is probably the only Pokemon that this would be good for, since it can take Lele's attacks with ease.

Super Fang was basically never even considered in Singles and only on Pokemon with terrible offenses. I only see this even being considered in Doubles.
 
Lele destroys Special Sponges with Psyshock, anyway. Dark-types that could run SpDef are killed by Moonblast or Focus Blast. Assault Vest Alolan Muk is probably the only Pokemon that this would be good for, since it can take Lele's attacks with ease.

Super Fang was basically never even considered in Singles and only on Pokemon with terrible offenses. I only see this even being considered in Doubles.

Yeah I was thinking doubles as well, for Lele, would you use Psyshock over psychic? is hitting special sponges just more important then that raw damage?
 
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