I went into Sun pretty blind, so I kept accelrock. I did have a magnezone, so that dismantled the flying E4 Member. I will say that I used Stealth Rock on it with some success if I didn't know what to expect in a particular fight. Maybe it was simply a victim of how my team was composed. Every time I wanted to use it, something else on my team just did the job better.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Sun / Moon In-Game Tier List
- Thread starter Colonel M
- Start date
Why such sudden dislike for Pelipper? I mean, I forgot to get Scald and Surf and yet it was easily the best Pokemon in my team even though it only had Water Pulse and Air Cutter for, say, 80% of the game.
A Rain-boosted Hydro Vortex can make short work of a lot of Pokemon that don't resist it, and while Pelipper has to wait a long time before getting a powerful Flying-type move, Water-resists cannot really do much to it, especially after getting Roost. 60/100/70 defenses may not look like much, but its typing (and Roost) make it drastically better. There are practically no Pokemon that aren't Electric-types or very bulky STAB resists that can force it out, and if that's the case, you can teach it U-Turn to break Sturdy while switching out.
As a Wingull, it has the perk of high Speed and early Water Pulse, as well as almost soloing Hala and Kiawe (although by this time, it may have evolved).
A Rain-boosted Hydro Vortex can make short work of a lot of Pokemon that don't resist it, and while Pelipper has to wait a long time before getting a powerful Flying-type move, Water-resists cannot really do much to it, especially after getting Roost. 60/100/70 defenses may not look like much, but its typing (and Roost) make it drastically better. There are practically no Pokemon that aren't Electric-types or very bulky STAB resists that can force it out, and if that's the case, you can teach it U-Turn to break Sturdy while switching out.
As a Wingull, it has the perk of high Speed and early Water Pulse, as well as almost soloing Hala and Kiawe (although by this time, it may have evolved).
I'm quoting this again to bring it up. It seemed to receive positive attention, but I was curious if any decision could be made.
Honestly, it seems like the top tier is the beginning of a core. Each resists the other, Pelliper buffs each in a specific way (STAB water, softens surprise fire for mag, 100% accuracy for the eventual Thunder) Horribly weak to rock, which probably carries coverage for Mag, but no rock wants to deal with a rain boosted aqua tail or GyaraDance.
Slap Araquanid on here to brute your way through literally everything with obscene rain boosted water STAB
Slap Araquanid on here to brute your way through literally everything with obscene rain boosted water STAB
Last edited:
I'm suddenly tempted to try out that core if we get a new game set in Alola. You basically OHKO everything bar Grass-types (until Pelipper gets Hurricane) and Dragon-types. Add an Ice-type and you are set.
I'll trust you on that one but I don't get the explanation about the move being "twice at the top of the list".
Here's Kadabra list:
- Kinesis
- Teleport
- Confusion
16 Confusion
Doesn't learn Confusion; learns Kinesis instead.
and here's Masquerain's:
- Quiver Dance
- Whirlwind
- Bug Buzz
- Ominous Wind
- Bubble
- Quick Attack
- Sweet Scent
- Water Sport
6 Quick Attack
9 Sweet Scent
14 Water Sport
17 Gust
22 Scary Face
22 Air Cutter
26 Stun Spore
32 Silver Wind
38 Air Slash
42 Bug Buzz
48 Whirlwind
52 Quiver Dance
- Whirlwind
- Bug Buzz
- Ominous Wind
- Bubble
- Quick Attack
- Sweet Scent
- Water Sport
6 Quick Attack
9 Sweet Scent
14 Water Sport
17 Gust
22 Scary Face
22 Air Cutter
26 Stun Spore
32 Silver Wind
38 Air Slash
42 Bug Buzz
48 Whirlwind
52 Quiver Dance
Apparently learns its regular level-up moves instead of Quiver Dance?
Doesn't seem consistent at all, unless this resource - https://paste.ee/r/zYMUr - is inaccurate.
I ended up with Dewpider on my first playthrough and I can confirm that it is excellent. It doesn't get a physical water type move until later on in the form of Liquidation, but with its ability it still has no problem muscling through things on the special side. Let's not forget that it also gets access to Stab Leech Life which makes short work of Nanu, as well as the rock captain shortly after getting picked up, and it has pretty solid bulk in general. I also found it to be rather fast (without consulting the speed tier.) Being able to pick it up and evolve it so early is a pretty magnificent boon to its utility as well.
I'm pretty sure not every Pokemon learns their first - move on evolution... Infact, probably a huge number don't. Many Pokemon have - moves, Trumbeak for instance, does not learn Rock Blast on evolution. I'm pretty sure that a lot of mons don't learn a move when they evolve. Serebii now lists them as "Evolve" moves, which might help to get rid of that idea.
Whats strange is that Kadabra gets Kinesis via Evolve, and then should learn Confusion (at level 16)... But it doesn't. According to Codraroll Eevee evolving at level 17 into Vaporeon does get both Water Gun (Evolve) and Water Pulse (Level 17). So I am not sure why Kadabra is broken. What I am getting at is Masquerain does not have Quiver Dance as an "Evolution" move, but it does learn two moves at Level 22 when it evolves... Yeah, they've done some strange stuff to movesets this gen.
With the listing thing, I mean that the "Evolution Moves" are, at least in the cases I've looked at, listed in a separate slot at the top of their level-up movepool but also listed as moves they learn at level 1. So if Masquerain got Quiver Dance that way (which it doesn't regardless), I would expect it to be listed both as a move it learns at level 1 and in the extra slot at the top of the list.
As has been frequently mentioned on these forums, a solid Ice type doesn't really exist at all in the Pokémon games. They're all troubled by late availability, late evolution and what might frankly be Pokémon's worst misalignment between type chart properties and stat distributions.
Evolving Shellder (can be done before the Grass trial, if memory serves me correctly) is indeed your best (read: only) bet for an Ice type until Tapu Village. There, you may find Snorunt and Alola Vulpix/Sandshrew, of if you are beyond lucky, it hails there and you can get Vanillite. Or, well, "Lucky", Vanillite's stats aren't much to write home about, neither are Vanillish's, and the entire line is troubled by a rather limited movepool (Ice moves, Normal moves, Flash Cannon).
By the way, whoever put Cleffa in E... is probably right. I caught one after reaching Poni Island, spent some time grinding until it caught up with my team in terms of levels, and couldn't help but notice its atrocious movepool, complete lack of survivability, and inability to affect the HP bar of any opponent apart from the occasional wild Boldore (because I taught it the Grass Knot TM, and Boldore weighs 104 kg and has base 40 Sp.Def). I'm hoping for a performance boost after level 46, where it gets Moonblast so I can evolve the darn thing. Stat-wise, Clefable is basically a 20 % weaker Mew, so it ought to pull some weight, and Magic Guard is great.
So yeah, I'm not even using it as intended, but it seems pretty obvious that Cleffa belongs in the bottom three tiers somewhere. If Clefable turns out to be a great asset after evolution and to the end of the game, maybe a case could be made for D, but at the moment E seems just about right.
Uhm... why?
You can find wild Cleffa at night in Mount Hokulani (you know, that part of the game you are allowed to skip completely, so if you caught one that late because of this, I understand you), where they are as common as Ditto and may SOS call Clefairy :P
Doesn't change much as the point remains mostly the same, but there are also
EDIT: Forgot Ice Rock requirement is late.
I got a lot of mileage out of my eviolite, it really helps a lot of Pokemon with late evolutions stay relevant - in my case it was Misdreavus and Rufflet getting eviolite treatment but I can see it working just as well for A-Grimer. Eviolite is definitely something to consider when tiering late-evolving pokemon, or trade evolving ones like A-Graveler or Machoke.
Last edited:
Scald is an 80 BP STAB with a great secondary effect that Wingull has access to incredibly early via TM (I am assuming Lvl 17). Here is when each non-Legendary Pokemon in A tier gets access to an >80 BP STAB (for TMs, I have assumed Pokemon are the same level as the highest leveled trainer Pokemon in the area you find it):
Cutiefly: Pollen Puff (Lvl 25) (Evolve)
Dewpider: Scald (Lvl 17) (TM)
Diglett: Dig (Lvl 35) (Level Up) [Earth Power available earlier, but runs off special]
Fletchling: Acrobatics (Lvl 15) (TM)
Gengar: Shadow Ball (Lvl 30) (TM)
Grimer: Crunch (Lvl 32) (Level Up)
Growlithe: Flamethrower (Lvl 34) (Level Up)
Litten: Lava Pledge (Lvl 17) (Move Tutor)
Magmortar: Lava Plume (Lvl 36) (Level Up)
Makuhita: Close Combat (Lvl 46) (Level Up)
Mankey: Cross Chop (Lvl 22) (Level Up)
Mudbray: High Horsepower (Lvl 24) (Level Up)
Munchlax: Body Slam (Lvl 25) (Level Up)
Popplio: Scald (Lvl 17) (TM)
Salandit: Sludge Bomb (Lvl 36) (TM)
Staryu: Scald (Lvl 17) (TM)
Stufful: Take Down (Lvl 30) (Level Up)
Wishiwashi: Scald (Lvl 17) (TM)
Zubat: Acrobatics (Lvl 15) (TM)
The analysis is somewhat unfair to Makuhita since he gets early access to the 75 BP STAB Brick Break which just barely misses the cut. However, it's very apparent that many A tier Pokemon aren't matching Wingull's fire power until their 30s, meaning Wingull has a significant advantage by getting Scald so early. Scald, Acrobatics and Brick Break users are very, very valuable since not many Pokemon learn powerful STABs early and Wingull happens to be arguably the best Scald user (outside of perhaps Popplio) due to good bulk, a good ability and good availability.
Yes, but I find wingull to have some drawbacks. While Pelipper can hit hard, he is relatively slow and his special defenses is pretty below average especially around late game when Pelipper's stats start to become very below average outside of special attack and defense. I also feel like in order to be S tier there must be many options for the pokemon in the most beneficial situations. Pelipper is beneficial in specifically only a couple situations but does it very well. Which was why I suggested A tier or even potentially B tier. Not to mention that wingull has not a very good typing and drizzle can be used against the team when having to switch out due to the limited number of options pelipper has outside of using scald and roost, and potentaily hurricane extremely late in the game.
Whoops, should have clarified. After I reached Poni Island, I backtracked and caught a Cleffa at Mount Hokulani. Didn't know they could summon Clefairy, though, that would make it slightly less annoying to deal with.
I think Wimpod's being a bit undersold here. The road to level 30 is obviously going to be total hell without an EXP Share, but i'm curious how the mixture of First Impression / Sucker Punch holds up.
Assuming EXP Share + 100% encounter rate by chasing them on Route 8, a pretty awesome 530 BST, decent early TM options such as Leech Life, Brick Break, and even Payback off of 40 base speed, low even by Alola standards, making it a shoe-in for 100 BP, I could see it being a bit better than D tier, but again I never ran it.
Level-up movepool is pretty much garbage without the relearner, but TMs could keep you going reliably until you get Liquidation and start, well, liquidating everything in your path. 140 base defense makes me think that this guy could possibly just spam Leech Life and recover if he doesn't get forced into the 50% range; even if so, if you're not playing on Set you could just throw it in and completely annihilate any dark types with First Impression, stop any fragile 'Mons cold with Sucker Punch, then swap him back out.
This thing can actually beat Olivia's pokemon 1v1 on paper, provided heals, even level, and good rolls, but it might need to swap out for the heals. Toss a Mystic Water on this thing to remove the need for good rolls and it'll obliterate things. Should be good against Hala too since he apparently doesn't have any rock coverage.
On paper, at least, this seems alright.
Assuming EXP Share + 100% encounter rate by chasing them on Route 8, a pretty awesome 530 BST, decent early TM options such as Leech Life, Brick Break, and even Payback off of 40 base speed, low even by Alola standards, making it a shoe-in for 100 BP, I could see it being a bit better than D tier, but again I never ran it.
Level-up movepool is pretty much garbage without the relearner, but TMs could keep you going reliably until you get Liquidation and start, well, liquidating everything in your path. 140 base defense makes me think that this guy could possibly just spam Leech Life and recover if he doesn't get forced into the 50% range; even if so, if you're not playing on Set you could just throw it in and completely annihilate any dark types with First Impression, stop any fragile 'Mons cold with Sucker Punch, then swap him back out.
This thing can actually beat Olivia's pokemon 1v1 on paper, provided heals, even level, and good rolls, but it might need to swap out for the heals. Toss a Mystic Water on this thing to remove the need for good rolls and it'll obliterate things. Should be good against Hala too since he apparently doesn't have any rock coverage.
On paper, at least, this seems alright.
Last edited:
The biggest thing is that it doesn't need anything else. If the opposing pokemon can't OHKO Pelipper and doesn't resist Scald, Scald will likely pick up the OHKO. A similar thing happened with me and Araquanid while I was waiting for Liquidation. Even off the weaker SpA stat, just clicking Scald was enough for me to pick up several KO's so long as they don't have an outright unfavorable situation. And with its reasonable physical bulk, Pelipper's only outright poor situations are against Electric types, as it can probably take one hit from a SE rock type, who are generally as slow as you are anyways so you speed creep thanks to EVs, and trainers in-game generally don't carry Electric coverage, which in turn makes Water-Flying good enough defensively in game. If you don't believe it, here's a rundown of islands:
Island 1 is a mixed bag. Neutral first trial and weak physical SE STAB against Hala
Easily clears half of Island 2 single-handedly.
Island 3 you finally get Drizzle, Roost, and U Turn. This will carry you until the E4 as long as you are outright weak. Rain boosted Scald can handle everything except for Vikavolt and maybe Mimikyu. Scald in rain will OHKO most neutral matchups even with lack of coverage, and where you lose the OHKO you have Roost to power through or U Turn to chip away to a strong matchup.
Aether Foundation onwards, with the exception of Kommo-o, click Scald and watch things die.
Yes, Pelipper has issues, but a single positive trait can more than make up for it in game.
I would like to add my support for Golisopod. The annoying grind to 30 can be really alleviated by hoarding Rare Candies and cramming them down Wimpod's throat. I for example only needed to get it to 25 before going "screw this" and handing it the lot where it proceeded to smash the competition.
Anything weak to bug is basically cannon fodder to this thing.
"Oh they brought out an Alakazam/Raichu that wants a sweep?" Nah, Golisopod mate. The insane power of it's priority is fantastic for kill sniping as well and I wholly appreciated this pokemon's presence....not as much as one other though.
Mudsdale. Holy crap. This thing. With Stamina it breaks the game, I swear. So many games I, by all accounts had no business winning due to being underleveled at the time, won just by sitting on this horse. It learns a fantastic array of moves just by level up/easy access TM's (Heavy Slam, High Horsepower, Rock Slide, Superpower, Bulldoze), has a broken (in-game) ability and only has 3 weaknesses. Switching it in on a piss-poor rock attack and soaking up a free boost makes this pokemon unstoppable.
You can simply sit on it for a few turns spamming Potions etc until it's defense is high enough that it just flat out does not care about whatever your opponent will throw at it. I strongly think it deserves going up, it is available early, evolves quickly, has a daft ability, can be found so easily you have to try NOT to find it, has a great typing and a fantastic movepool. Just keep it away from super-effective special attacks and it will just turn every battle into a cakewalk.
Not to mention it's match-ups; Olivia gets spanked by this thing sooooo hard, Hala is a Fighting type user and therefore just makes this thing into a tank for you, Totem Salazzle hates Bulldoze to the face (in fact none of the totems like the speed drop), Vikavolt is just...gone and frankly every physical attacker in-game won't be having much fun vs this thing.
Last edited: