Jesus. That makes it even worse than it already was. The new games are excellent in so many ways, but they just can't help but put stupid garbage like the Rotom thing in somewhere.
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Jesus. That makes it even worse than it already was. The new games are excellent in so many ways, but they just can't help but put stupid garbage like the Rotom thing in somewhere.
just wait until Gamefreak finally reacts to Pokemon Go in gen VIII
I like Rotomdex :(
Okay, as someone that has actually played Yokai Watch and Sun/Moon, the rotomdex is nowhere even close to Whisper. At least in the games, I can't tell on the anime.
While many saw the signs and hints in the pre-release (and I made the Rotomdex/Whisper connection too, see the anime thread), post-release the Rotomdex is really underplayed and subtle. Sure he cracks a snark here and there but most of this is in the bottom screen and largely ignore-able. He never really gets involved in the plot after the initial tutorial, and even disappears entirely for a few key plot squences. In short, Whisper is a character but the Rotomdex isn't. It has more in common with Navi or Tatl than Whisper.
Now, I recommend any further discussion on how much you liked or disliked the Rotomdex, or accusations of Yokai Watch influences be taken to another thread. This isn't the place for it.
To move the conversation, I want to go back to discussing Mega-evolution. While a lot of people were taken back by the darker tone the megas got in Sun/Moon, but is this really so shocking? Even ignoring Mystery Dungeon and the anime (and the website, as it mentioned Glalie's dislocated jaw in it's initial release), was Mega Evolution ever truly played as fueled by hopes, dreams, and friendship in X/Y? Gen 6 made it pretty clear that Mega-stones were all made unethically (infinite energy which is pretty much soul power, see the Ultimate Weapon and Sea Mauvile).
Is it possible that we'd just become so used to positive feeling fueled anime transformations that we attributed this over unfairly?
While many saw the signs and hints in the pre-release (and I made the Rotomdex/Whisper connection too, see the anime thread), post-release the Rotomdex is really underplayed and subtle. Sure he cracks a snark here and there but most of this is in the bottom screen and largely ignore-able. He never really gets involved in the plot after the initial tutorial, and even disappears entirely for a few key plot squences. In short, Whisper is a character but the Rotomdex isn't. It has more in common with Navi or Tatl than Whisper.
Now, I recommend any further discussion on how much you liked or disliked the Rotomdex, or accusations of Yokai Watch influences be taken to another thread. This isn't the place for it.
To move the conversation, I want to go back to discussing Mega-evolution. While a lot of people were taken back by the darker tone the megas got in Sun/Moon, but is this really so shocking? Even ignoring Mystery Dungeon and the anime (and the website, as it mentioned Glalie's dislocated jaw in it's initial release), was Mega Evolution ever truly played as fueled by hopes, dreams, and friendship in X/Y? Gen 6 made it pretty clear that Mega-stones were all made unethically (infinite energy which is pretty much soul power, see the Ultimate Weapon and Sea Mauvile).
Is it possible that we'd just become so used to positive feeling fueled anime transformations that we attributed this over unfairly?
Moving this to the "Mysteries and conspiracies" thread, since it's mentioned every other page or so in there.
Also, the canonical answer is "Game Freak doesn't give two flying turds about timelines".
Regarding to whether Jynx has legs, I think Jynx's running animation might suggest that this bump is her knee.
But in the anime, one cannot help but notice that both use very formal and polite Japanese.
However, Rotomdex feels more like a robot, whilst Whisper feels like some old fashioned man who wanted to emphasize on etiquette all the time.
I agree that in the games, Rotomdex feels nothing like Whisper at all.
But in the anime, one cannot help but notice that both use very formal and polite Japanese.
However, Rotomdex feels more like a robot, whilst Whisper feels like some old fashioned man who wanted to emphasize on etiquette all the time.
Since this is a thread for conspiracies and not only mysteries, let me post a pet theory of mine:
Late in the development of Pokémon Red and Green, Onix was heavily nerfed from its intended power level.
First a little background: This is Onix:
It is a rock snake the size of a subway train, with a temper comparable to a bull on a bad day. It attacks foes by ramming into them with its blade-like horn which is larger than most Pokémon, smacking them with its tail (which is made out of boulders) or against larger foes, wrapping around them and squeezing them. It moves as fast under the ground as it does above, and often attacks from below. In generation I, Onix was by far the biggest Pokémon around, and also one of the heaviest. In the very first episode of the TV series, Onix was featured as a trump card of a high-level trainer in the Pokémon League, capable of going toe-to-toe with Gengar and emerging the winner. It was seen as such a powerhouse that Elite Four's Bruno uses two Onix. Truly, Onix was one of the coolest Pokémon around, and still is.
And its stats are, on average, roughly on par with Spearow's. 35/45/160/30/45/70. Onix has fantastic defense, passable Speed and truly trash, bottom-of-the-garbage-bin stats otherwise. 35/45/x/30/45/x is worse stats than things like Tynamo and Surskit. The closest match I could find is Sentret, with 35/46/x/35/45/x, which is still six points better than Onix. Its Special stats compare to Combee (base 30/41). And 45 Attack is matched by Wurmple and Skitty.
How could such a giant, awesome boulder monster have such abysmal stats? Both the Anime, most of in-game and most of its other appearances treated it like a heavy tank. Like I said, it was one of Bruno's signature Pokémon. If you wanted one for yourself, it was a moderately rare encounter in Rock Tunnel (5 %/10 % on the respective two floors), or you had to wait until Victory Road. What went wrong?
Brock, that's what. Or who.
I believe that Onix, because of all its awesomeness, was written into the Anime to become the signature Pokémon of one of the main characters. Onix was perfect for the role, serving as an early obstacle for Pikachu to overcome when Brock was first encountered, and it could later be used to sprite up action scenes. Brock got Onix to give it an early opportunity to show off, and this was written into the games. The Anime was mostly a commercial for the games anyway, so the two had to match in most aspects. Onix probably replaced a second Geodude, or Graveler, or possibly something more exotic like Rhyhorn on Brock's team.
However, Onix would have been far too powerful for an early-game Pokémon. With a powerful Attack stat, it would KO just about any early-game Pokémon with Tackle, and its HP would be near-impossible to bring down thanks to solid defenses. That early in the game, players would not have had a chance to get a Water- or Grass-type if they had chosen Charmander, and even then early-game STAB is rather weak.
Rather than removing Onix from Brock's roster, I believe they took another approach, and slashed some of its stats in half. Its terrible Special stat of 30 was probably always there, Onix learned no Special moves and the stat was probably intended to be its achilles heel. But I think its HP and Attack were both meant to be near twice as high as they ended up being. 35 HP is among the worst in the game (barely higher than Rattata), but with, say, base 65, Onix would have been better than Graveler but worse than Golem. Likewise, its Attack stat could originally have been between 75 and 90, scaled down to 45. To compensate for stats barely higher than a buffed-up Caterpie, Onix could have got more points pumped into its Defense, raising it from a modest 120 or so to a titanic 160, which used to be second-highest in the game, behind Cloyster. This end result is slightly weird, since nothing about Onix really screams "defensive" like the other high-defense Pokémon. It's just that its total stats had nowhere else to go.
Onix' BST isn't half bad, actually. 385 is just below Graveler (390), and I believe it wasn't that much higher to begin with (Comparably, of course, since Gen I BST ends up slightly lower since there is only one Special stat). Ten points, maybe, or thirty. But it is so oddly distributed that I can't help but suspect some foul play, or last-minute tweaking to fit Onix into a role it wasn't intended for.
I'm not saying Onix was meant to be the strongest Pokémon in RBY. Or RG, I guess. But I think it used to have much more balanced stats, giving it a power level higher than that of Graveler and Rhyhorn, but somewhat lower than Golem and Rhydon. Instead, its stats were redistributed into Defense to lower the difficulty for players, without considering how this screwed up Onix for its other intended purposes.
I see a comparable analogy to Onix in Skarmory. Onix and Skarmory were both single-stage Pokémon, focused on the same side of the stat spectrum, and have roughly the same availability. Now imagine if the designers wanted to give Skarmory to Falkner, the first Gym Leader in GSC. If they had done so, I believe the result would have been much like the Onix we see today. Conversely, if not for the need to be on Brock's team, I believe Onix would have been comparable to Skarmory, and Steelix would have been a rather terrifying high-tier Pokémon.
Late in the development of Pokémon Red and Green, Onix was heavily nerfed from its intended power level.
First a little background: This is Onix:
It is a rock snake the size of a subway train, with a temper comparable to a bull on a bad day. It attacks foes by ramming into them with its blade-like horn which is larger than most Pokémon, smacking them with its tail (which is made out of boulders) or against larger foes, wrapping around them and squeezing them. It moves as fast under the ground as it does above, and often attacks from below. In generation I, Onix was by far the biggest Pokémon around, and also one of the heaviest. In the very first episode of the TV series, Onix was featured as a trump card of a high-level trainer in the Pokémon League, capable of going toe-to-toe with Gengar and emerging the winner. It was seen as such a powerhouse that Elite Four's Bruno uses two Onix. Truly, Onix was one of the coolest Pokémon around, and still is.
And its stats are, on average, roughly on par with Spearow's. 35/45/160/30/45/70. Onix has fantastic defense, passable Speed and truly trash, bottom-of-the-garbage-bin stats otherwise. 35/45/x/30/45/x is worse stats than things like Tynamo and Surskit. The closest match I could find is Sentret, with 35/46/x/35/45/x, which is still six points better than Onix. Its Special stats compare to Combee (base 30/41). And 45 Attack is matched by Wurmple and Skitty.
How could such a giant, awesome boulder monster have such abysmal stats? Both the Anime, most of in-game and most of its other appearances treated it like a heavy tank. Like I said, it was one of Bruno's signature Pokémon. If you wanted one for yourself, it was a moderately rare encounter in Rock Tunnel (5 %/10 % on the respective two floors), or you had to wait until Victory Road. What went wrong?
Brock, that's what. Or who.
I believe that Onix, because of all its awesomeness, was written into the Anime to become the signature Pokémon of one of the main characters. Onix was perfect for the role, serving as an early obstacle for Pikachu to overcome when Brock was first encountered, and it could later be used to sprite up action scenes. Brock got Onix to give it an early opportunity to show off, and this was written into the games. The Anime was mostly a commercial for the games anyway, so the two had to match in most aspects. Onix probably replaced a second Geodude, or Graveler, or possibly something more exotic like Rhyhorn on Brock's team.
However, Onix would have been far too powerful for an early-game Pokémon. With a powerful Attack stat, it would KO just about any early-game Pokémon with Tackle, and its HP would be near-impossible to bring down thanks to solid defenses. That early in the game, players would not have had a chance to get a Water- or Grass-type if they had chosen Charmander, and even then early-game STAB is rather weak.
Rather than removing Onix from Brock's roster, I believe they took another approach, and slashed some of its stats in half. Its terrible Special stat of 30 was probably always there, Onix learned no Special moves and the stat was probably intended to be its achilles heel. But I think its HP and Attack were both meant to be near twice as high as they ended up being. 35 HP is among the worst in the game (barely higher than Rattata), but with, say, base 65, Onix would have been better than Graveler but worse than Golem. Likewise, its Attack stat could originally have been between 75 and 90, scaled down to 45. To compensate for stats barely higher than a buffed-up Caterpie, Onix could have got more points pumped into its Defense, raising it from a modest 120 or so to a titanic 160, which used to be second-highest in the game, behind Cloyster. This end result is slightly weird, since nothing about Onix really screams "defensive" like the other high-defense Pokémon. It's just that its total stats had nowhere else to go.
Onix' BST isn't half bad, actually. 385 is just below Graveler (390), and I believe it wasn't that much higher to begin with (Comparably, of course, since Gen I BST ends up slightly lower since there is only one Special stat). Ten points, maybe, or thirty. But it is so oddly distributed that I can't help but suspect some foul play, or last-minute tweaking to fit Onix into a role it wasn't intended for.
I'm not saying Onix was meant to be the strongest Pokémon in RBY. Or RG, I guess. But I think it used to have much more balanced stats, giving it a power level higher than that of Graveler and Rhyhorn, but somewhat lower than Golem and Rhydon. Instead, its stats were redistributed into Defense to lower the difficulty for players, without considering how this screwed up Onix for its other intended purposes.
I see a comparable analogy to Onix in Skarmory. Onix and Skarmory were both single-stage Pokémon, focused on the same side of the stat spectrum, and have roughly the same availability. Now imagine if the designers wanted to give Skarmory to Falkner, the first Gym Leader in GSC. If they had done so, I believe the result would have been much like the Onix we see today. Conversely, if not for the need to be on Brock's team, I believe Onix would have been comparable to Skarmory, and Steelix would have been a rather terrifying high-tier Pokémon.
Codraroll Onix Theory:
I do see one hiccup with the theory: Onix was Brock's ace in the original Red & Green. Pokemon didn't start with there being an anime made about it in mind, it was first a game and that's all the creators were thinking about. The original Red & Green were released on February 27, 1996 and the first anime episode was released on April 1, 1997 (no wonder why people consider the main anime to be a joke...), more than a year apart.
So why did they give Brock an Onix than? Easy: rule of cool and intimidation. Up till this point we've been dealing with little Pokemon that share similarities with equally little animals: mice, birds, caterpillars, rabbits, etc.. The Starters were a lizard with its tail on fire, a turtle, and a toad with a plant bulb on its back, all small as well. Even Brock's first Pokemon was just a rock with arms. Then, once you defeat the rock with arms (gee, what a creative concept...), your probably hundredth small Pokemon you mindless dealt with: play time is over. "Brock sends out Onix!" you read the text. "Onix, huh? What, is it going to be a rock with feet?" you muse. Then Brock sends out a GIANT ROCK SNAKE! Suddenly your Pokemon is David going up against Goliath! This also showed that Gym Leaders were a cut above normal trainers, all other trainers at that point were using small Pokemon like you so a trainer must be strong to use a big Pokemon! Sure, Brock could use a Rhydon but that was only a bit bigger, adult sized. No, Onix helped make the players think Brock, thus the rest of the Gym Leaders, were monumental challenges and if you want to use big and cool Pokemon like them you're going need to defeat them and win Badges.
But, as you said, could this have meant Onix stats were cut? Well, let's do another experiment: Let's look at the BST of the other Pokemon which didn't have an evolutionary family (excluding Ditto and Legendaries)(remember Gen I didn't split the Special stat, thus I'm using their original stats for this):
Onix: 35/45/160/30/70//340
Farfetch'd: 52/65/55/58/60//290
Hitmonlee: 50/120/53/35/87//345
Hitmonchan: 50/105/79/35/76//345
Lickitung: 90/55/75/60/30//325
Chansey: 250/5/5/105/50//415
Tangela: 65/55/115/100/60//395
Kangaskhan: 105/95/80/40/90//410
Mr. Mime: 40/45/65/100/90//340
Scyther: 70/110/80/55/105//420
Jynx: 65/50/35/95/95//340
Electabuzz: 65/83/57/85/105//395
Magmar: 65/95/57/85/93//395
Pinsir: 65/125/100/55/85//430
Tauros: 75/100/95/70/110//450
Lapras: 130/85/80/95/60//450
Snorlax: 160/100/65/65/30//430
So what does this tell us? Well even if its points were redistributed into Defense it would still fall behind the average. The Pokemon that its BST is above or equal to are mostly gotten through early to mid-game (where you're transitioning from low to high BST) trades. Meanwhile all the Pokemon above it are really above it, the lowest by 45 points. Though that's just base numbers, what about appearance? The Pokemon its BST is above around is a bird that's meant to be a joke, humanoids, and a weird tongue lizard (who I'm curious was also meant to be a joke). Meanwhile the ones above it are a Mongolian warrior beast, a mantis with blade arms, an electric oni, a lava duck, a stag beetle with huge horns, a bull, a plesiosaur, and a giant bear. Sure, we also have an egg, mass of vine, and the Mongolian warrior is carrying a baby, but the point I'm getting across is that it does feel Onix was more meant to be with the latter group than the former going by appearance. Okay, true, that doesn't really mean much, but still for an intimidating Pokemon to have low Attack and most everything put to Defense and a little into Speed does seem odd.
Infact, maybe Steelix was what Onix was meant to be: Good attack and HP, high defense, low Speed (or okay Speed, its possibly Steelix has low Speed because they wanted to recreate the original Onix idea but couldn't from increased BST alone so redistributed points from a stat it really wasn't take much advantage from and balance out the increase in physical power its being given).
I do see one hiccup with the theory: Onix was Brock's ace in the original Red & Green. Pokemon didn't start with there being an anime made about it in mind, it was first a game and that's all the creators were thinking about. The original Red & Green were released on February 27, 1996 and the first anime episode was released on April 1, 1997 (no wonder why people consider the main anime to be a joke...), more than a year apart.
So why did they give Brock an Onix than? Easy: rule of cool and intimidation. Up till this point we've been dealing with little Pokemon that share similarities with equally little animals: mice, birds, caterpillars, rabbits, etc.. The Starters were a lizard with its tail on fire, a turtle, and a toad with a plant bulb on its back, all small as well. Even Brock's first Pokemon was just a rock with arms. Then, once you defeat the rock with arms (gee, what a creative concept...), your probably hundredth small Pokemon you mindless dealt with: play time is over. "Brock sends out Onix!" you read the text. "Onix, huh? What, is it going to be a rock with feet?" you muse. Then Brock sends out a GIANT ROCK SNAKE! Suddenly your Pokemon is David going up against Goliath! This also showed that Gym Leaders were a cut above normal trainers, all other trainers at that point were using small Pokemon like you so a trainer must be strong to use a big Pokemon! Sure, Brock could use a Rhydon but that was only a bit bigger, adult sized. No, Onix helped make the players think Brock, thus the rest of the Gym Leaders, were monumental challenges and if you want to use big and cool Pokemon like them you're going need to defeat them and win Badges.
But, as you said, could this have meant Onix stats were cut? Well, let's do another experiment: Let's look at the BST of the other Pokemon which didn't have an evolutionary family (excluding Ditto and Legendaries)(remember Gen I didn't split the Special stat, thus I'm using their original stats for this):
Onix: 35/45/160/30/70//340
Farfetch'd: 52/65/55/58/60//290
Hitmonlee: 50/120/53/35/87//345
Hitmonchan: 50/105/79/35/76//345
Lickitung: 90/55/75/60/30//325
Chansey: 250/5/5/105/50//415
Tangela: 65/55/115/100/60//395
Kangaskhan: 105/95/80/40/90//410
Mr. Mime: 40/45/65/100/90//340
Scyther: 70/110/80/55/105//420
Jynx: 65/50/35/95/95//340
Electabuzz: 65/83/57/85/105//395
Magmar: 65/95/57/85/93//395
Pinsir: 65/125/100/55/85//430
Tauros: 75/100/95/70/110//450
Lapras: 130/85/80/95/60//450
Snorlax: 160/100/65/65/30//430
So what does this tell us? Well even if its points were redistributed into Defense it would still fall behind the average. The Pokemon that its BST is above or equal to are mostly gotten through early to mid-game (where you're transitioning from low to high BST) trades. Meanwhile all the Pokemon above it are really above it, the lowest by 45 points. Though that's just base numbers, what about appearance? The Pokemon its BST is above around is a bird that's meant to be a joke, humanoids, and a weird tongue lizard (who I'm curious was also meant to be a joke). Meanwhile the ones above it are a Mongolian warrior beast, a mantis with blade arms, an electric oni, a lava duck, a stag beetle with huge horns, a bull, a plesiosaur, and a giant bear. Sure, we also have an egg, mass of vine, and the Mongolian warrior is carrying a baby, but the point I'm getting across is that it does feel Onix was more meant to be with the latter group than the former going by appearance. Okay, true, that doesn't really mean much, but still for an intimidating Pokemon to have low Attack and most everything put to Defense and a little into Speed does seem odd.
Infact, maybe Steelix was what Onix was meant to be: Good attack and HP, high defense, low Speed (or okay Speed, its possibly Steelix has low Speed because they wanted to recreate the original Onix idea but couldn't from increased BST alone so redistributed points from a stat it really wasn't take much advantage from and balance out the increase in physical power its being given).
^It seems I didn't make it very clear, but I think Onix' initial Defense wasn't raised by as much as its HP and Attack were cut. Say it was intended to have base 75 HP, 90 Attack and 110 Defense, for a total of 275. It ended up with 35 HP, 45 Attack and 160 Defense, for a total of 240. The difference is only 35 points, but it would give Onix a BST closer to Tangela, Electabuzz and Magmar. Up the Attack to 100, or the Defense to 120, and Onix suddenly hits that 395 BST benchmark.
And it might be that the Anime had nothing to do with it. I didn't realize the time discrepancy was that large, there's no way the Anime was in such advanced stages of planning early enough to influence RG's development. Brock may still be the crux, though, for the reason you said: They wanted to give Brock a second Rock type, and a truly iconic Pokémon to feature in promotional media. Onix was the only Rock type which could fill that role, but not without some heavy tinkering of its base stats.
And it might be that the Anime had nothing to do with it. I didn't realize the time discrepancy was that large, there's no way the Anime was in such advanced stages of planning early enough to influence RG's development. Brock may still be the crux, though, for the reason you said: They wanted to give Brock a second Rock type, and a truly iconic Pokémon to feature in promotional media. Onix was the only Rock type which could fill that role, but not without some heavy tinkering of its base stats.
The problem I see with that hypothesis is that Onix can be found in the wild much earlier (Rock Tunnel) than other Pokemon with similar BST, so it couldn't have been much more powerful before being handed to Brock. Unexperienced as they were, I wouldn't find logical that Game Freak would throw a Pokemon with a great stat distribution so early into the game. There were the Nidos, right, but you'd have to use the Moon Stone on Mt. Moon on them instead of, say, Clefairy (which no one ever did even on the first playthrough lol).
Well who says they couldn't place Onix in Rock Tunnel after lowering its stats and giving it to Brock? Saving it just for Victory Road would seem underwhelming as you'd have access to better Pokemon, so if they made it weaker maybe they thought why not make it available early as well so those who want to use it would be able to get some use from it until its time to replace it (or train it up enough so they can keep on using it even if its just as a wall).
That said, have you looked at the Pokemon in Rock Tunnel and Victory Road? Rock Tunnel has Zubat, Geodude, and Machop. What does Victory Road have? Those same three plus their next evolution stage (and Marowak). Still, they have pretty much the same Pokemon so its not like, in terms of power, Onix is out of pace in Victory Road as a wild Pokemon.
While this doesn't dispute the theory as a whole there is one problem with thinking the anime is at fault: Onix's screentime.
Onix's appearances were really scarce: appearing in only 8 episodes of the 83 episode Kanto series and only 6 episodes of the 157 episode Johto arc. Besides a few movie appearances, it really didn't show up that much before Brock gave it to his brother (and it evolved into Steelix).
Granted, most of Brock's pokemon have this issue (Zubat had only one significant appearance in the Kanto arc besides its own capture) but still if they were trying to show off Onix they were doing a terrible job at it.
I think in this case, it's more likely the game influenced the anime, and the anime was like "how are we gonna fit this giant rock snake into all these small buildings? Bench it for Geodude."
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Forgive me for breaking the rules, but it's my post #1000 and I wanted to take some time to say thank you to the Smogon community in the thread that's my biggest personal contribution.
It's been just over 3 years since I joined, shortly before X/Y came out, weird how that feels like ages ago. Most of my forum experience had came fromgamefaqs other less kind environments, so I was pleasantly surprised by how kind, welcoming, and enthusiastic the Smogon Community is. Really makes this website a real fun place to hang out and talk about pokemon, which is how it should be.
While I'm mostly confined to just the Orange Islands, I'm glad that the Mystery thread has become a semi-mainstay even without me watching it like an expectant father. I've been amazed by some of the thought and insight some people have put into their personal discoveries and mysteries, which makes me all the more proud to contribute just a small part to that.
Personal shout outs to the Orange Islands forum mods, Codraroll and DHR-107, for keeping my favorite forum running like a well oiled machine, and for NoCheese who is probably the only reason I'm getting any wins in the Battle Maison (and hopefully the Battle Tree).
And I can't forget the contributors, thank you to Pikachu315111, WaffleTitan, HelenTheHero, Cresselia~~, Vader_the_White, Karxrida, Hulavuta, Phione, Siggu, Darth Manaphy, Detective Barricade, Integer Mova, jordanthejq12, Random Passerby and all those I'm forgetting. Thank you for being entertaining, thoughtful, helpful, informative, and for making Smogon stay golden.
Here's to 1000 posts, and many to come!
It's been just over 3 years since I joined, shortly before X/Y came out, weird how that feels like ages ago. Most of my forum experience had came from
While I'm mostly confined to just the Orange Islands, I'm glad that the Mystery thread has become a semi-mainstay even without me watching it like an expectant father. I've been amazed by some of the thought and insight some people have put into their personal discoveries and mysteries, which makes me all the more proud to contribute just a small part to that.
Personal shout outs to the Orange Islands forum mods, Codraroll and DHR-107, for keeping my favorite forum running like a well oiled machine, and for NoCheese who is probably the only reason I'm getting any wins in the Battle Maison (and hopefully the Battle Tree).
And I can't forget the contributors, thank you to Pikachu315111, WaffleTitan, HelenTheHero, Cresselia~~, Vader_the_White, Karxrida, Hulavuta, Phione, Siggu, Darth Manaphy, Detective Barricade, Integer Mova, jordanthejq12, Random Passerby and all those I'm forgetting. Thank you for being entertaining, thoughtful, helpful, informative, and for making Smogon stay golden.
Here's to 1000 posts, and many to come!
At least it's better than previous games where they wouldn't even have that small chunk of rock beneath it. Hell, I think it's still that way in the Pokédex.
Well, as you said, Looker had an Audinite in his pocket, so he's not from either the RGBY/GSC universe or the RSE/FrLg/DPPt/HgSs/BW/B2W2 universe, since neither of those have Mega Evolution.
And we know from XY, OrAs and SM (the Megaverse) that the events of the previous games happened roughly at the same time as they did the first time around, although the events maybe slightly differently than in the previous two timelines (like OrAs focusing on Mega Evolution, FrLg having that pit stop in the Sevii Islands, everything west of Mahogany Town in HgSs).
So OrAs Looker has to be from a 4th additional timeline. One in which the Ultra Wormhole sucked him through into the Megaverse. (As we can see from Anabel, the Ultra Wormholes can actually pop up into the non-Mega timelines. So safe to assume they can pop up in alternate Mega timelines.)
That means that our main Mega Timeline either didn't have a Looker native to it, or it has TWO native to it (the one in OrAs and the one in XY). This also presents an additional mystery, if there are two Lookers. Which one appears in Sun and Moon? Or if the OrAs and XY Looker is the same one, is the SM Looker also the same one?
Now here's a mystery I have for you all.
It's widely speculated that there's three universes:
And while I still think that the Time Capsule is partially the reason for the GB timeline's demise, now that we know Ultra Wormholes can travel to non-Mega timelines, I believe another reason is an invasion from the Ultra Beasts.
Only a handful of Pokémon would've been able to take on the Ultra Beasts due to their abnormally high BST compared to the BST's of Pokémon in Generation 2; Mewtwo, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Celebi, Mew, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Raikou, Entei and Suicune. Due to the events of the games, most if not all of these would be caught, while Celebi and Mew wouldn't even be available in-universe as they must be given to you through events.
Without an abundance of local Mega Evolutions or other Legendaries to defend the regions, Kanto and Johto would fall. And without Bill alive to fix the Time Capsule, the GB timeline would fall apart as well.
I know there's a lot of speculation and fanon in this theory, but I did use mostly canonical facts.
What do you guys think?
- the self-contained "Game Boy" timeline (Red/Green/Blue/Yellow and Gold/Silver/Crystal), which can't connect to Gen. 3.
- the widely accepted "Main" timeline (Ruby/Sapphire/Emerald/FireRed/LeafGreen/Diamond/Pearl/Platinum/HeartGold/SoulSilver/Black/White/Black2/White2, in addition to the three Ranger side games and the Orre-based games, as well as any storage games like Ranch, RSBox or even Dream Radar), which has backwards connectivity between them, but needs an app to move the Pokémon up any further.
- the newly-introduced "Mega" timeline (X/Y/OmegaRuby/AlphaSapphire/Sun/Moon), which can all interact due to the introduction of Pokémon Bank.
And while I still think that the Time Capsule is partially the reason for the GB timeline's demise, now that we know Ultra Wormholes can travel to non-Mega timelines, I believe another reason is an invasion from the Ultra Beasts.
Only a handful of Pokémon would've been able to take on the Ultra Beasts due to their abnormally high BST compared to the BST's of Pokémon in Generation 2; Mewtwo, Ho-Oh, Lugia, Celebi, Mew, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Articuno, Zapdos, Moltres, Raikou, Entei and Suicune. Due to the events of the games, most if not all of these would be caught, while Celebi and Mew wouldn't even be available in-universe as they must be given to you through events.
Without an abundance of local Mega Evolutions or other Legendaries to defend the regions, Kanto and Johto would fall. And without Bill alive to fix the Time Capsule, the GB timeline would fall apart as well.
I know there's a lot of speculation and fanon in this theory, but I did use mostly canonical facts.
What do you guys think?
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One issue: Objects can go through Wormholes too. Looker in ORAS is from the non-Mega timeline, and an Audinite (likely) fell through the Wormhole at Looker's feet. He picked it up, then walked through the Wormhole. Got lost. Ended up in ORAS. That is the (likely) explanation.
Admittedly, I do sort of enjoy the GB timeline theory.
Isn't Looker having Audinite on him supposed to be a pun? Audino sounds like "I dunno" and he has amnesia.
If Looker is from the non-Mega timeline, then he shouldn't be in the Sinnoh and Unova games, which also take place in the non-Mega timeline.
I do think it's likely he could be from a non-Mega timeline, but not the non-Mega timeline.
I personally can't wait until we see a core series timeline that alters everything radically. Like Conquest or Mystery Dungeon, but set in the actual canon of a game. Maybe a universe we visit in the post-game of another game.
But yeah, my GB theory is one of my faves.
He could have fallen in at some point after the events of Black and White.
Of course, this all assumes that Game Freak gives a damn about a solid, consistent timeline... which they really don't. There is no the non-Mega timeline. Each save file of each game is its own universe, loosely tied together with events that did indeed happen... sort of. And Game Freak is never going back to any "non-Ultimate Weapon" timeline, so having Looker appearing in OR/AS is fine regardless of where he's from. Hell, this is chronologically his first appearance, three years before the events of Platinum and however many years +2 before X/Y. (I don't have that basic timeline thing handy at this time) For all we know, this could be his origin.
Faller Looker:
The more you look into it, Looker being a Faller gets more and more confusing. Now this might be because they're stretching the clues and story bits throughout games so we don't have them all, but that doesn't make things any less confusing at the moment.
Looker in ORAS showed signs of what we could relate to being a Faller. But if that's the case, why was Anabel needed in SM to attract the Ultra Beasts? Surely the International Police knew about what happened to Looker, so how do they not know? Unless he's not a Faller and its just coincidence Looker went through the same thing a Faller does.
Then we have timeline issues of when Looker became amnesiac. If ORAS is in the same place as RSE was than Looker getting amnesia and going on that Ultra Beast mission 10 years ago would have happened close to each other. If ORAS happened somewhere around XY than there isn't much of a problem IF Looker isn't a Faller. But if Looker is than not only do we have the above issue but how could Looker have worked under Nanu than? And ORAS can't take place after SM as Wally is in the Battle Tree that only exceptional trainers can go to (plus he has his Mega Gallade and battle theme).
Now there could be two Lookers, one from the old timeline we saw in ORAS and theMega Ultimate Timeline one we saw in XY & SM. If so, what happened to the ORAS Looker? And why did ORAS Looker have a Audinite (aside from the joke that Karxrida pointed out and maybe to show that Looker was sucked in after the events of BW in the original timeline?). Did he just find it in Ultra Space? Did he have something on him that transformed into it? Though even if this Looker isn't a Faller why does he have it anyway?
There's just too many problems and right now the two conclusion I see is either Looker isn't a Faller or there's two Lookers.
Just because we can no longer access other timelines doesn't mean they're gone, it just means we aren't focusing on them anymore as we, the players, moved on. As the franchise and games move forward we need new mechanics to keep things fresh and innovated. Now a lot of times GF just handwaves how some stuff exists now but didn't before but a timeline jump is a good excuse to introduce a big mechanic change.
But anyway, I'm kind of sick of these theories suggesting the other two timelines don't exist all from Anabel having said "she had protected some tower there....". That's a VERY vague statement and since she had lost her memories it would probably be easy for her to confuse excepting challenges as she was a Frontier Brain to her protecting it. Unless she said she protected it from Ultra Beasts there's no reason to think her being transported to the Ultimate Timeline means the Advance Timeline doesn't exist anymore.
Also, I can see Lusamine's attempts to forcefully open Ultra Wormholes being dangerous to the world. But I just don't understand how if a Ultra Wormhole naturally opens or a Pokemon who can travel via wormholes normally would put the world at risk. And yeah, Ultra Beasts are powerful but they're still Pokemon, a skilled trainer can defeat it with their normal Pokemon (and if they're super lucky catch it, though that could be story and gameplay segregation).
Though here's a new mystery about Fallers: Could Lillie (and Lusamine) and Guzma be at risk of attracting a wayward Ultra Beast? They gone through the Ultra Wormhole so they're Fallers, they were just able to keep their memories for the most part (Lusamine is suffering from some amnesia and Guzma got possessed, but they're memories are intact for the most part even if they had no control over their actions). Guzma is in Alola which has had Ultra Wormholes open up out of the blue, and he may have some PTSD after being possessed by a Nihilego (even though Buzzhole and/or Pherosoma would probably fit nicely on his Bug-type team) so might panic and make mistakes (though I do think he's strong enough to battle one, actually I don't know why he tried to catch a Nihileogo in Ultra Space without his Pokemon). As for Lillie & Lusamine, though they're not in Alola that doesn't mean Ultra Wormholes can't appear elsewhere, it's just the only place known they appeared from. And Necrozma showed there could be some Ultra Beasts who traveled over long ago and just adapted best they can to their environment/moved around a lot. And if one Faller is enough to attract an Ultra Beast what about two together, especially one who had fused with an Ultra Beast? And with Lillie an unskilled trainer-to-be and Lusamine in a weakened condition they're no position to defend themselves.
The more you look into it, Looker being a Faller gets more and more confusing. Now this might be because they're stretching the clues and story bits throughout games so we don't have them all, but that doesn't make things any less confusing at the moment.
Looker in ORAS showed signs of what we could relate to being a Faller. But if that's the case, why was Anabel needed in SM to attract the Ultra Beasts? Surely the International Police knew about what happened to Looker, so how do they not know? Unless he's not a Faller and its just coincidence Looker went through the same thing a Faller does.
Then we have timeline issues of when Looker became amnesiac. If ORAS is in the same place as RSE was than Looker getting amnesia and going on that Ultra Beast mission 10 years ago would have happened close to each other. If ORAS happened somewhere around XY than there isn't much of a problem IF Looker isn't a Faller. But if Looker is than not only do we have the above issue but how could Looker have worked under Nanu than? And ORAS can't take place after SM as Wally is in the Battle Tree that only exceptional trainers can go to (plus he has his Mega Gallade and battle theme).
Now there could be two Lookers, one from the old timeline we saw in ORAS and the
There's just too many problems and right now the two conclusion I see is either Looker isn't a Faller or there's two Lookers.
Just because we can no longer access other timelines doesn't mean they're gone, it just means we aren't focusing on them anymore as we, the players, moved on. As the franchise and games move forward we need new mechanics to keep things fresh and innovated. Now a lot of times GF just handwaves how some stuff exists now but didn't before but a timeline jump is a good excuse to introduce a big mechanic change.
- GB Timeline doesn't have Abilities nor Mega Pokemon, though it could have Fairy-types since we know new types can be introduced in it. Its a question whether it can have Z-Moves though for simplicity sake I would say no as the Ultra Energy of Z-Moves seems equivalent of that of Infinity Energy of Mega Evolution.
- Advance Timeline doesn't have Mega Evolution nor probably Z-Moves since the only difference between it and the Mega Timeline is the firing of the Ultimate Weapon.
- Ultimate Timeline is the one we're in now.
But anyway, I'm kind of sick of these theories suggesting the other two timelines don't exist all from Anabel having said "she had protected some tower there....". That's a VERY vague statement and since she had lost her memories it would probably be easy for her to confuse excepting challenges as she was a Frontier Brain to her protecting it. Unless she said she protected it from Ultra Beasts there's no reason to think her being transported to the Ultimate Timeline means the Advance Timeline doesn't exist anymore.
Also, I can see Lusamine's attempts to forcefully open Ultra Wormholes being dangerous to the world. But I just don't understand how if a Ultra Wormhole naturally opens or a Pokemon who can travel via wormholes normally would put the world at risk. And yeah, Ultra Beasts are powerful but they're still Pokemon, a skilled trainer can defeat it with their normal Pokemon (and if they're super lucky catch it, though that could be story and gameplay segregation).
Though here's a new mystery about Fallers: Could Lillie (and Lusamine) and Guzma be at risk of attracting a wayward Ultra Beast? They gone through the Ultra Wormhole so they're Fallers, they were just able to keep their memories for the most part (Lusamine is suffering from some amnesia and Guzma got possessed, but they're memories are intact for the most part even if they had no control over their actions). Guzma is in Alola which has had Ultra Wormholes open up out of the blue, and he may have some PTSD after being possessed by a Nihilego (even though Buzzhole and/or Pherosoma would probably fit nicely on his Bug-type team) so might panic and make mistakes (though I do think he's strong enough to battle one, actually I don't know why he tried to catch a Nihileogo in Ultra Space without his Pokemon). As for Lillie & Lusamine, though they're not in Alola that doesn't mean Ultra Wormholes can't appear elsewhere, it's just the only place known they appeared from. And Necrozma showed there could be some Ultra Beasts who traveled over long ago and just adapted best they can to their environment/moved around a lot. And if one Faller is enough to attract an Ultra Beast what about two together, especially one who had fused with an Ultra Beast? And with Lillie an unskilled trainer-to-be and Lusamine in a weakened condition they're no position to defend themselves.
A little note: Sun/Moon Spoilers do not have to be in the hide tabs anymore.
I talked with Codraroll and we agreed that for the future Sun/Moon discussions in the Mystery thread you don't need to use hide tabs anymore. The games have been out for a while now, there's a clear spoiler warning on the thread, and to be honest it looks like some of you aren't even bothering anymore.
Be sure to be respectful and don't go crazy with it, and remember that for now it's only for discussions in this thread (unless the Mod's say otherwise). But if you want to discuss how Kukui is really Masked Royal for example, than feel free to do it in the open now.
I talked with Codraroll and we agreed that for the future Sun/Moon discussions in the Mystery thread you don't need to use hide tabs anymore. The games have been out for a while now, there's a clear spoiler warning on the thread, and to be honest it looks like some of you aren't even bothering anymore.
Be sure to be respectful and don't go crazy with it, and remember that for now it's only for discussions in this thread (unless the Mod's say otherwise). But if you want to discuss how Kukui is really Masked Royal for example, than feel free to do it in the open now.
Yes, it is supposed to be a pun, but we also can't deny the fact that he DOES have it and if he is the Looker from the non-Mega timeline, we HAVE to explain why he has something from the Mega timeline. And Occam's Razor decrees the simplest explanation in-universe is: It came through the Ultra Wormhole when it opened for Platinum Looker.
When I say the non-Mega timeline, I mean the one we have played through up until BW. Because that is the only established non-Mega timeline we have.
Also, keep in mind that Time Travel is established in the series, and when traveling between entire worlds and timelines, it is very possible that non-Mega Looker also travelled from the future of one timeline to the past of the other.
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I think Nanu explains that Anabel's body exudes an exceptional amount of Ultra Wormhole radiation, which is partly why she was promoted to a position above Looker despite not being with the International Police for as long. Looker also cares about her, and wants to help, but he also doesn't have a Pokemon to defend himself with whereas Anabel has a fairly competent team. (as shown by the fact she wants to battle the player to make sure they're up for the task of joining the UB Taskforce) OR/AS "replaces" R/S/E in the timeline, so there's plenty of time for Looker to have worked with or under Nanu. (plus, you know, the whole International Police thing. But he could've gone through and didn't get bathed in enough Ultra Wormhole energy to be considered a Faller)
I am a bit tired of people just assuming the Ultra Beasts want to destroy whatever world they find themselves in. As the game points out, their main interest is in going home, back to Ultra Space. They're on edge because everything is foreign to them and far from home. They sense Ultra Wormhole energy and are drawn to it, thinking it might be an Ultra Wormhole that may lead them home... only to find it's coming from a human. The Tapu are also known for being fickle, especially Tapu Koko, so whether Alola was in danger or not probably mattered little to them once they spotted the UB. The UB, while coming from another dimension, are still Pokemon, and thus sensing the Tapu's power would likely make them eager to test their mettle against them. I imagine that this is also how the Beast Balls work, simulating the sense of Ultra Space/the Ultra Wormholes, making the Ultra Beasts easier to catch. Other Pokemon are disturbed by this, thus the worse catch rate. (that or the fact these are prototypes and the Aether Foundation never got around to fixing that with anything else)
I imagine that any Ultra Beast Guzma would end up facing would be shown destruction in human form. It's your boy Guzma, after all, and he probably wouldn't be facing Arceus-knows-how-many Nihilego all at once. I don't think the Ultra Beasts would attack Lillie and Lusamine, mostly as while disappointed they're not an Ultra Wormhole leading home, they probably also wouldn't appear to be a threat or worth the effort of fighting. We may never know. (and for all we know, Gladion may have slipped her the third Type: Null created to protect her and their mother in Kanto, at least until she can get in touch with Oak in Pallet Town for her choice of starter. It would certainly be in the Aether Foundation's interest to see to their safety as well, and that Null was probably going to spend the rest of eternity on ice anyway, so...)
I do want to point out that the UBs are still violent towards humans because of the whole "everything is foreign, oh my god, I'm scared" as you pointed out, and they lash out, just like a cornered animal, which is why people think "destroy all things." ...and that is sad.
Reminder to all that in the games, most Pokemon are still just that: animals. Yes, some are very intelligent (Alakazam, Lapras, the Tapu), but they are still simply animals. In fact, this gen's Pokedex REALLY drives that point home given how much predator-prey relationships we see all in one Pokedex.
I don't think Looker's a faller, in my opinion. I think the coincidental circumstance is just that.
We know that there's two secret bases near the Battle Resort where the International Police staked out a criminal. The theory that Looker was the officer, and was knocked out by the criminal, and was brought to the Resort on the tide.
Then there's the theory that he was the officer on the SS Anne back in the Kanto games, but disguised (which is one of his signature traits). And that he tried to stop Team Rocket but got knocked overboard and floated to the Battle Resort.
Or here's a third theory. After Guzzlord ate the previous faller 10 years ago (yeah, they heavily imply that the last faller was eaten. Or at least killed by Guzzlord.), it could've blasted Looker and Nanu with such force that Looker was rendered unconscious and eventually ended up on the Battle Resort, with mild amnesia that would've gone away by the time his timeline's Sinnoh events rolled around.
I never said the Advanced timeline didn't exist still. Because despite needing an app to do so, it can still connect to the Ultimate timeline. Also, my theory didn't come from Anabel's dialogue at all, just thought of it on my own. If they can invade the Ultimate timeline, as shown in Sun and Moon, and they can travel to the Advanced timeline, as shown by Anabel, then there should be no reason why they can't invade the GB timeline, or the anime or the manga.
And I mentioned that there was no time travel in the Advanced timeline and Pal Park myself. But... I forgot the Celebi event. Which does reinforce my point, that outside of Celebi, time travel is non-existent in the Pokémon core timelines post-Time Capsule.
The GB timeline is the only one that's completely cut off from the other game timelines. (I'm obviously not counting spin-offs, since those are typically cut-off as well, unless you can send Pokémon to/from those games.) And a reasonable reason for why it's cut off from its sister timelines is that it was destroyed.
Then again, one could argue that due to the Red/Green/Blue/Yellow re-releases, that that timeline is still intact, just extremely... basic, compared to its sister timelines.
As for your new theory, yes. Lillie, Lusamine, Guzma and Sun/Moon are all fallers. So if we do actually go back to a "ten years later" Kanto as so many are suspecting, with Lillie as your rival, that would explain how and why the Ultra Beasts (who are now obviously known as Pokémon) would show up in the post-game for collection.