I thought the point of suspect testing was to remove broken/uncompetitive/overcentralizing Pokemon regardless of what would happen in the future, as the Council would choose whatever threat does the same later. Currently Mega Metagross is pretty damn centralizing, as well as arguably broken, that it should consider its life in Ubers now. So what if other Pokemon rise up in its place? Rinse and repeat until we have a balanced meta, that's what. Keeping a broken Pokemon to check other arguably broken, uncompetitive, or overcentralizing mons isn't balanced. It's chaos and definitely overcentralizing on those specific Pokemon.
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Announcement np: SM OU Suspect Process, Round 4 - The Robots - Metagrossite BANNED
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I thought the point of suspect testing was to remove broken/uncompetitive/overcentralizing Pokemon regardless of what would happen in the future, as the Council would choose whatever threat does the same later. Currently Mega Metagross is pretty damn centralizing, as well as arguably broken, that it should consider its life in Ubers now. So what if other Pokemon rise up in its place? Rinse and repeat until we have a balanced meta, that's what. Keeping a broken Pokemon to check other arguably broken, uncompetitive, or overcentralizing mons isn't balanced. It's chaos and definitely overcentralizing on those specific Pokemon.
Again with the mindset that stall absolutely hates Metagross, when its one of the playstyles that handles it the best. I seriously dont get that argument, not that it's worth anything anyway.
Aside from that, I do like that we should focus on the metagame around it as well as just 1v1 theorymoning scenarios, so I'll try to explain why I think banning Metagross would be good for the meta as a whole. First, on the statement that it is a 1 for 1 with Medicham, that's just incorrect. Mega Metagross and Mega Medicham do take slots up on the same playstyle, but they do quite different things depending on what you need them to do, and it's not as simple as picking between one or the other, due to the defensive qualities that Metagross possesses that Medicham doesn't, specifically the defensive quality of countering 2 of the tapus, and beating the other 2 1v1 as well. Without this important niche filled, offensive teams need to look for other offensive steels, potentially seeing a rise of Mega Mawile (Fuck Yeah), Autonomise Celesteela, Jirachi, Kartana (iffy cause lol Spdef), Magearna, offensive Mega Scizor, Scizor in general, and stuff like Excadrill/Sand teams. Now this does mean Mega Medicham could go on those teams, but obviously it cannot with the other Megas, and sometimes having these options means Mega Medi might not be the best fit, because that way you cant beat stall teams as effectively, or you might be too weak to something like Greninja or Weavile, as a few examples.
Then, we see things that are stifled significantly by Metagross's presence rise in popularity as well. Things like: any scarfer that cannot OHKO it, Serperior, Kyurem-B, Clefable (and other fairies), and other offensive steel types that Metagross outperforms. Then we see things that can beat these things rise in popularity too, increasing the teambuilding potential for everyone. I cant say if the meta post MMeta would be better than the one we already have, but there is more room for creativity in the teambuilder, which is an aspect of the metagame that is currently somewhat lacking, and I like to see prosper.
Ergo I feel that banning Mega Metagross is a good choice with respect for metagame development.
Aside from that, I do like that we should focus on the metagame around it as well as just 1v1 theorymoning scenarios, so I'll try to explain why I think banning Metagross would be good for the meta as a whole. First, on the statement that it is a 1 for 1 with Medicham, that's just incorrect. Mega Metagross and Mega Medicham do take slots up on the same playstyle, but they do quite different things depending on what you need them to do, and it's not as simple as picking between one or the other, due to the defensive qualities that Metagross possesses that Medicham doesn't, specifically the defensive quality of countering 2 of the tapus, and beating the other 2 1v1 as well. Without this important niche filled, offensive teams need to look for other offensive steels, potentially seeing a rise of Mega Mawile (Fuck Yeah), Autonomise Celesteela, Jirachi, Kartana (iffy cause lol Spdef), Magearna, offensive Mega Scizor, Scizor in general, and stuff like Excadrill/Sand teams. Now this does mean Mega Medicham could go on those teams, but obviously it cannot with the other Megas, and sometimes having these options means Mega Medi might not be the best fit, because that way you cant beat stall teams as effectively, or you might be too weak to something like Greninja or Weavile, as a few examples.
Then, we see things that are stifled significantly by Metagross's presence rise in popularity as well. Things like: any scarfer that cannot OHKO it, Serperior, Kyurem-B, Clefable (and other fairies), and other offensive steel types that Metagross outperforms. Then we see things that can beat these things rise in popularity too, increasing the teambuilding potential for everyone. I cant say if the meta post MMeta would be better than the one we already have, but there is more room for creativity in the teambuilder, which is an aspect of the metagame that is currently somewhat lacking, and I like to see prosper.
Ergo I feel that banning Mega Metagross is a good choice with respect for metagame development.
I swear, I feel like some people don't read the thread and the points already made, and then just post whatever comes to their mind.
Greninja has been brought up as a revenge killer to megagross multiple times. The only other consistent revenge killer is sash dugtrio (assuming sash is intact, or if you're using the subpar band/groundium z). The only other options for revenge killing are once megagross has taken enough chip, but it takes negligible damage from rocks and has to switch into spikes multiple times, or you have to risk dedicated megagross walls getting muscled through as it can break through near all of them. Having a grand total of two consistent revenge killers does not make for a lot of safe, consistent offensive counterplay.
When you play against megagross, you don't slot four moves onto it in your head and then play around some pre-determined mental moveset that can be checked to your convenience. You often have to assume 5-6 different options because you can only safely assume mash, and mispredicting the moveset can cost you entire pokemon against metagross. I also don't want to have to make the same point again, but since people really dislike reading threads they decide to post in... hp fire is a very viable option on megagross as fire/electric/ice coverage is powerful in this meta and is the reason things like 3 attacks zapdos exist. Grass knot isn't commonly used, but the possibility of all coverage is always something to consider in any suspect, in case the meta could shift to favour said coverage.
The problem with the z-moves you mentioned are that they're too niche for just the sake of handling megagross, and have little applicability outside of that. using firium z on garchomp means you've forgone scarf, which is chomp's best and not outclassed set in OU. As for zypaper... people need to stop bringing it up as it sits in C+ for a reason. The reasoning exists in the viability threads. I don't want to regurgitate more than I already have.
I would like to note to readers that the term 4MSS should not be used for mons with just a very wide coverage that cant pick more than 4 of their multiple choices, rather than for mons that need certain moves to be useful and then having to choose between some coverage moves, even poor ones, with the risk of getting walled by certain main threats.
Let's go with an example
BW Dragon Dance Dragonite is the clear example of 4MSS mon; it needs Dragon Dance to sweep, Outrage as STAB, then it has to choose between Fire Punch to hit steels, specifically Skarmory, Scizor and Forretress; Earthquake for the same reason, hitting specifically Heatran and Tyranitar; Extreme Speed to not get revengekilled by Mamoswine and scarf users like Keldeo or Latwins. Lacking even one of those move makes Dragonite weak to certain top metagame threats, therefore it clearly suffers 4MSS.
Protean Greninja is the clear wrong example of 4MSS mon; it can run Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, HP Fire, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Low Kick, Spikes, Grass Knot and many other moves, but giving up on one of these moves doesn't make Greninja incredibly weak to certain top threats. Sure, you would like to run HP Fire when facing Ferrothorn, or Gunk Shot while facing Tapu Fini, or Extrasensory when against Toxapex, but Greninja's job is just to spread damages and lack of a specific move doesn't block it from doing that. For this reason Greninja doesn't suffer 4MSS.
Mega Metagross clearly belongs to the second category. It doesn't actually need to run all of its moves to be effective, it just has to spread damages (mainly with Meteor Mash) to be dangerous; running Hammer Arm over Earthquake will make u stronger over Ferrothorn and weaker vs other Metagross but that doesn't stop the Pokémon spreading damages and being dangerous, since it doesn't need any boost move to be effective, nor its whole coverage gets walled by top threats unless running that specific move for them.
I feel like Metagross has an important defensive sinergy in offensive teams, being very useful against many psychic/fairy/flying/ice pokemon, as Tapu Lele, Mega Pinsir, Kyurem-Black, Tapu Bulu, and that's the main reason it's so used; like Landorus-T, another top metagame mon, it makes the difference giving actual switchins on other non-defensive mons, letting your offensive team not being a "sack party" when in passive situations. For this reason I believe Mega Metagross has important use for the metagame, and I didn't appreciate the choice of not suspecting some other dumber mons before it (*ribbit*)
However, due to things you would get tired to read, as gen 7 mega evo buff, powerful coverage moves with a lot of secondary effects, the same coverage moves able to potentially cover every threat, the very little cost in playing a mon that gives a lot of pressure and makes opponents hope that its coverage can't destroy all of their mons, I believe it should still be banned. Maybe it's not the right timing, but it's not actually worth waiting more time and keeping this beast in the tier just because the future could make it less dangerous, there are too many reason to let it go opposed as reasons to make it stay, imo.
Let's go with an example
BW Dragon Dance Dragonite is the clear example of 4MSS mon; it needs Dragon Dance to sweep, Outrage as STAB, then it has to choose between Fire Punch to hit steels, specifically Skarmory, Scizor and Forretress; Earthquake for the same reason, hitting specifically Heatran and Tyranitar; Extreme Speed to not get revengekilled by Mamoswine and scarf users like Keldeo or Latwins. Lacking even one of those move makes Dragonite weak to certain top metagame threats, therefore it clearly suffers 4MSS.
Protean Greninja is the clear wrong example of 4MSS mon; it can run Hydro Pump, Gunk Shot, HP Fire, Ice Beam, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Low Kick, Spikes, Grass Knot and many other moves, but giving up on one of these moves doesn't make Greninja incredibly weak to certain top threats. Sure, you would like to run HP Fire when facing Ferrothorn, or Gunk Shot while facing Tapu Fini, or Extrasensory when against Toxapex, but Greninja's job is just to spread damages and lack of a specific move doesn't block it from doing that. For this reason Greninja doesn't suffer 4MSS.
Mega Metagross clearly belongs to the second category. It doesn't actually need to run all of its moves to be effective, it just has to spread damages (mainly with Meteor Mash) to be dangerous; running Hammer Arm over Earthquake will make u stronger over Ferrothorn and weaker vs other Metagross but that doesn't stop the Pokémon spreading damages and being dangerous, since it doesn't need any boost move to be effective, nor its whole coverage gets walled by top threats unless running that specific move for them.
I feel like Metagross has an important defensive sinergy in offensive teams, being very useful against many psychic/fairy/flying/ice pokemon, as Tapu Lele, Mega Pinsir, Kyurem-Black, Tapu Bulu, and that's the main reason it's so used; like Landorus-T, another top metagame mon, it makes the difference giving actual switchins on other non-defensive mons, letting your offensive team not being a "sack party" when in passive situations. For this reason I believe Mega Metagross has important use for the metagame, and I didn't appreciate the choice of not suspecting some other dumber mons before it (*ribbit*)
However, due to things you would get tired to read, as gen 7 mega evo buff, powerful coverage moves with a lot of secondary effects, the same coverage moves able to potentially cover every threat, the very little cost in playing a mon that gives a lot of pressure and makes opponents hope that its coverage can't destroy all of their mons, I believe it should still be banned. Maybe it's not the right timing, but it's not actually worth waiting more time and keeping this beast in the tier just because the future could make it less dangerous, there are too many reason to let it go opposed as reasons to make it stay, imo.
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When it comes to a mon with a plethora of coverage like MMeta, I think the counterargument to "4MSS" is "6 team slot syndrome". Sure, if it's not carrying X, Y checks it, and if it's not carrying A, B checks it, and if it's not carrying N, Z checks it. But you can only put 6 Pokes on a team - are you going to spend half of those stacking your team with Y, B and Z just to cover every possible MMeta set? That's basically the definition of overcentralizing: when you have to build a considerable portion of your team around just beating one specific mon. Especially since those mons tend to overlap roles, you really struggle to be prepared for every MMeta set, still attempt to cover all the other threats out there and actually have enough offensive presence on your own team to actually win rather than just slowly getting worn down until you die. The only exception to this is stall since it's the one playstyle that can afford to/frequently runs multiple things that check most of the variants of MMeta.
Ultimately when you're teambuilding for BO/balance, the most you can really do is spend 2 of your limited 6 spots on an offensive check and a defensive check and you just hope you get the right matchup.
Ultimately when you're teambuilding for BO/balance, the most you can really do is spend 2 of your limited 6 spots on an offensive check and a defensive check and you just hope you get the right matchup.
I think we need to wait awhile before making a decision like this. Yes, metagross is a huge threat, but we still have a number of mega Pokémon that have yet to be released. It will take time before we have access to all of them, but until then I think we need to suck it up and deal with having a very powerful Pokémon in OU. I personally think that mons such as camerupt and swampert, and maybe even manectric or houndoom have a good chance of scaring metagross out of the top spot. We just need to wait and see.
Waiting for pokemon that are unreleased is never an anti-ban argument. The metagame has already stagnated and it will continue to be so as long as megagross is in the tier. Holding off for months, maybe a year for some megas, just for some megas that we aren't even sure will be released or not, does not justify how badly it overcentralizes the metagame. Besides, if we really want to later, we can suspect test bringing it back in at a later date.
By the way, I don't think any other mega has that kind of combination of bulk (higher than skarm's ffs), speed, typing, raw power, coverage, and ability to check near all the top tiers to the point that megagross will be dethroned. You are welcome try justifying that in the mega evolution thread with proper write-ups though. I don't want this thread to be derailed as it's on the hinge of it already.
My apologies. Let me explain a little bit of my thought process.
Of the four mega Pokémon I listed, swampert was in my mind the most likely candidate to dethrone metagross. Keep in mind that the hoenn starters mega stones are coming soon, probably the next to be released. Now, back to swampert. I didn't go too far into detail during my damage calculations, but with rain support, adamant mega-swampert Outspeeds metagross, OHKO's it with earthquake, and has arguably comparable bulk to metagross. Metagross also lacks the capability to kill swampert in one turn without a crit, so even without rain swampert wins this battle. In almost every case, metagross is forced out by swampert, or dies if it stays in.
Most people argue that simply forcing metagross out doesn't actually kill it, meaning it can come back in later when the threat is gone and start the onslaught again, but this is true for any Pokémon. This isn't a valid argument in my opinion because any strong threat can be forced out, then come back in later to sweep again.
I understand that the decision will be made now, and not in a month when swampert's mega stone is likely to be released. I understand that the introduction of a few more Mega mons may not actually have any effect on metagross. No one can say for sure. But I feel like metagross would be forgotten if it was banned, and may not come back to OU even if viable counters to it were available.
I would want to agree that we should wait for all the megas (tho for very different reasons than what you've listed here), but in reality that's just way too damn slow. We don't know when that time will be, so we should just focus on balancing the metagame we have.
Also, you can't look at mons in a vacuum. Mega camerupt, mega swampert and mega houndoom can beat Mega-metagross 1v1, sure, but that doesn't change the fact that mega camerupt and mega houndoom are 100% unviable mons in OU, and that mega swampert is only viable on rain in OU. Even if we had those mons right now, their presence would have 0 impact on the efficacy of megagross.
This is what I assume you meant by 'scaring metagross out of the top spot' (not that one of these megas could become the top-tier S-rank pokemon b/c that is ridiculous).
Grass knot is a strange choice. I realize many people are using HP fire to get through scizor, but this at least gives them some other uses such as ferrothorn and kartana. Grass knot, on the other hand, is useless against almost everything except for swampert, which means you effectively only have 3 moves.
Swampert doesn't require a whole rain team to be effective, just a pelliper or politoed. Metagross without grass knot can't beat swampert even outside of the rain, and grass knot isn't even a guaranteed OHKO.
What I said was that metagross can always switch out if threatened, which is true for any Pokémon, bar a few exceptions involving arena trap, magnet pull, etc. picking it's own checks and counters based on the rest of it's team means that it would have to switch, so I don't understand your point here. I might be confused by your wording, if so I apologize.
So you just wasted 2 team slots to ofensive check a mon, using a unreleased and someowhat of gimmicky mon ( pert isnt that good), nice way to check lol, rlly eficient
I definitely agree that we can't wait very long. But swampert is likely to be available in the next month, and that isn't that long to wait.
What I meant by "scaring it out of the top spot" was not that metagross would fall out of popularity, but that the presence of some of these mons would provide viable counters to metagross, which might dampen its success in OU
I'm not wasting two team slots to counter a single mon, I'm making a simple rain synergy set that can be used against plenty of teams.
Mega-swampert is a beast in rain. His only weakness is extremely uncommon and his bulk allows him to take a lot of punishment, and he puts out an absurd amount of damage. He certainly isn't limited to just checking metagross.
You should also refrain from laughing at my set when you use grammar like that. Sort of contradicts your point a little bit.
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I am not english or american, and grammar should not be taken in acount when we are in a pokemon comunity not grammar class, but anyways, idk if you know but tangrowth is one of the most used pokes atm and it is a p hard stop to pert, same but less comom are Venu, alomomola etc.. oh and i forgot to mention skarmory, ferrothorn and plenty of other options so yh, check out the metagame b4 conplaining abot my grammar, anyways this isnt about Mega Pert we talking and we should not last too long on this ( only the way a mod does not advert us)
Edit : forgot to mention there are better rain sweeper options, such as kingdra or omastar, that dont take up your mega slot
Second point is that pert is only a soft check, it cant take 2 Zen Headbuts after SR and b4 its a 99.6% of chance of 2HKO so yh..
Edit : forgot to mention there are better rain sweeper options, such as kingdra or omastar, that dont take up your mega slot
Second point is that pert is only a soft check, it cant take 2 Zen Headbuts after SR and b4 its a 99.6% of chance of 2HKO so yh..
I would be a bit careful with that. Ferrothorn and Tangrowth usually carry a Grass-type STAB, while Mega Charizard Y and Volcarona can carry Solar Beam and Giga Drain, respectively. The last two especially, as Mega Charizard Y removes rain and +1 Volc outspeeds Adamant Swampert in rain. There is also other, less common mons, such as Mega Venusaur, Tapu Bulu, Kartana, and Serperior who carry Grass-type moves. Even Manaphy can opt to run Energy Ball and, although it is much more rare, Greninja has the option of Grass Knot. In short, Grass-types aren't 'extremely uncommon' and are definitely capable of dealing with Mega Swampert.
ok are we seriously talking about whether mega swampert beats mega metagross and using that as a criteria for whether that makes mega metagross banworthy
does mega swampert beat mega metagross? yeah. it does even outside of rain because grass knot on metagross is not a thing. in fact, metagross has a pretty bad matchups against rain teams in general (which is really a trait that applies to all offensive megas. in fact metagross is arguably better vs rain because it can take a hit from guys like kabutops). mega swampert also beats landorus-i 1v1 but does that mean landorus-i isn't broken? no. it doesn't. also please focus on the current meta not the meta with all the mega stones like if metagross is ok then we can bring it back.
in my opinion metagross is banworthy. it's so easy to just bring it in and click buttons and win. 145 attack with a great ability means that it 2hkos like everything and also it's really fast. basically it just automatically wins against some teams that rely on stuff like steela to win because of the huge opportunity cost you need to account for when you give up another mega for scizor, give up your ash ninja check for physdef tang, etc. it's dumb and i want it to leave.
does mega swampert beat mega metagross? yeah. it does even outside of rain because grass knot on metagross is not a thing. in fact, metagross has a pretty bad matchups against rain teams in general (which is really a trait that applies to all offensive megas. in fact metagross is arguably better vs rain because it can take a hit from guys like kabutops). mega swampert also beats landorus-i 1v1 but does that mean landorus-i isn't broken? no. it doesn't. also please focus on the current meta not the meta with all the mega stones like if metagross is ok then we can bring it back.
in my opinion metagross is banworthy. it's so easy to just bring it in and click buttons and win. 145 attack with a great ability means that it 2hkos like everything and also it's really fast. basically it just automatically wins against some teams that rely on stuff like steela to win because of the huge opportunity cost you need to account for when you give up another mega for scizor, give up your ash ninja check for physdef tang, etc. it's dumb and i want it to leave.
My apologies, first of all. Your grammar seemed a little off to me, I assumed you were just being careless. Sorry about that.
Tangrowth does do well against swampert, but swampert has ice punch. I haven't done the calculations yet, but I assume it's a decent hit. If not, Swampert can switch out of tangrowth if necessary. Rain and STAB boosted waterfall should leave a dent in skarmory. Pert doesn't have any great options against venusaur, you got me there. Alomomola is all hitpoints. I doubt it holds up well against swampert. I agree we should get off the swampert talk, so I'll finish there.
I see your point. Grass is more common than I give it credit for. Swampert doesn't have much of an answer for ferrothorn or tangrowth. Charizard and volcorona have to be careful to not switch into a waterfall, especially if charizard hasn't mega evolved yet.
I'm done talking about swampert, I'll save that for after he's released.
Nothing tilts me more than intentionally not researching facts and being willing to post on threads, where newer players might look for insight on the matter.
AV tangrowth can check swampert easily:
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Tangrowth: 166-196 (41 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Defensive skarm (the most common set) can check it easily and stall out rain:
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory in Rain: 136-162 (40.7 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
Alomomola has deceptively good physical bulk (it's 165/80 ffs. That is high):
252+ Atk Swampert-Mega Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 220 Def Alomomola: 187-222 (38.9 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It does NOT suffice to assume calcs. Your misinformation could cost people games if they don't verify it for themselves. Just take the 30 seconds to calc these things. Research your points and read the thread before you post.
I agree that we should stop discussing unreleased megas here. It will derail this thread further than it already has.
Um, questions:
• I get the impression in this thread that saying "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" is not recognized as a valid argument.
• In this article (http://www.smogon.com/articles/oras-ou-retrospective), it is mentioned that "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" is recognized as a valid argument during the ORAS suspect. More specifically:
"Mega Metagross
Shortly after, another suspect was chosen. This time, it was Mega Metagross, for its very solid offensive stats...The main ban arguments boiled down to it having no solid answers and that it was just too much for the tier to handle while being extremely difficult to wear down. Anti-ban arguments mostly consisted of Mega Metagross being a "necessary evil,"...Anti-ban sides also disproved arguments of Mega Metagross being difficult to wear down due to the rise of Garchomp and Landorus-T running Rocky Helmet, and they brought up that Mega Metagross suffered from four-moveslot syndrome, which could be easily taken advantage of in the teambuilder, and with solid preparation, Mega Metagross can be easy to deal with. At the end of the suspect process, Mega Metagross narrowly avoided being banned to Ubers, with a 57.3% ban majority when a 60% supermajority was needed."
I understand why Metagross is being suspected again, but why is the "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" argument considered invalid this time around when it was valid during ORAS? By extension, why was the "necessary evil" argument considered valid during ORAS?
• I get the impression in this thread that saying "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" is not recognized as a valid argument.
• In this article (http://www.smogon.com/articles/oras-ou-retrospective), it is mentioned that "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" is recognized as a valid argument during the ORAS suspect. More specifically:
"Mega Metagross
Shortly after, another suspect was chosen. This time, it was Mega Metagross, for its very solid offensive stats...The main ban arguments boiled down to it having no solid answers and that it was just too much for the tier to handle while being extremely difficult to wear down. Anti-ban arguments mostly consisted of Mega Metagross being a "necessary evil,"...Anti-ban sides also disproved arguments of Mega Metagross being difficult to wear down due to the rise of Garchomp and Landorus-T running Rocky Helmet, and they brought up that Mega Metagross suffered from four-moveslot syndrome, which could be easily taken advantage of in the teambuilder, and with solid preparation, Mega Metagross can be easy to deal with. At the end of the suspect process, Mega Metagross narrowly avoided being banned to Ubers, with a 57.3% ban majority when a 60% supermajority was needed."
I understand why Metagross is being suspected again, but why is the "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" argument considered invalid this time around when it was valid during ORAS? By extension, why was the "necessary evil" argument considered valid during ORAS?
Um, questions:
• I get the impression in this thread that saying "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" is not recognized as a valid argument.
• In this article (http://www.smogon.com/articles/oras-ou-retrospective), it is mentioned that "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" is recognized as a valid argument during the ORAS suspect. More specifically:
"Mega Metagross
Shortly after, another suspect was chosen. This time, it was Mega Metagross, for its very solid offensive stats...The main ban arguments boiled down to it having no solid answers and that it was just too much for the tier to handle while being extremely difficult to wear down. Anti-ban arguments mostly consisted of Mega Metagross being a "necessary evil,"...Anti-ban sides also disproved arguments of Mega Metagross being difficult to wear down due to the rise of Garchomp and Landorus-T running Rocky Helmet, and they brought up that Mega Metagross suffered from four-moveslot syndrome, which could be easily taken advantage of in the teambuilder, and with solid preparation, Mega Metagross can be easy to deal with. At the end of the suspect process, Mega Metagross narrowly avoided being banned to Ubers, with a 57.3% ban majority when a 60% supermajority was needed."
I understand why Metagross is being suspected again, but why is the "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" argument considered invalid this time around when it was valid during ORAS? By extension, why was the "necessary evil" argument considered valid during ORAS?
It still wasn't a "valid" argument. Perhaps that's just in my mind. Because then we'd still have Aegislash.
But you see the voting and how decently close it was, and it only got better this generation. Another thing, the metagame conformed to Megagross in ORAS, the rise in RH chomp, and hippo are a good testament to that. However, those are not relevant anymore and with good reason. I never have thought the "broken checks broken" argument was worth a damn in the first place. Honestly, the ORAS megagross suspect is my least favorite suspect, not because it didn't go the way I preferred, but because as I said, the Meta was warped around the mon and we allowed it. This time however, I don't foresee the meta warping around it because as I said, the checks that did arise to beat Megagross then have a hard time in the metagame now.
Um, questions:
• I get the impression in this thread that saying "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" is not recognized as a valid argument.
• In this article (http://www.smogon.com/articles/oras-ou-retrospective), it is mentioned that "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" is recognized as a valid argument during the ORAS suspect. More specifically:
"Mega Metagross
Shortly after, another suspect was chosen. This time, it was Mega Metagross, for its very solid offensive stats...The main ban arguments boiled down to it having no solid answers and that it was just too much for the tier to handle while being extremely difficult to wear down. Anti-ban arguments mostly consisted of Mega Metagross being a "necessary evil,"...Anti-ban sides also disproved arguments of Mega Metagross being difficult to wear down due to the rise of Garchomp and Landorus-T running Rocky Helmet, and they brought up that Mega Metagross suffered from four-moveslot syndrome, which could be easily taken advantage of in the teambuilder, and with solid preparation, Mega Metagross can be easy to deal with. At the end of the suspect process, Mega Metagross narrowly avoided being banned to Ubers, with a 57.3% ban majority when a 60% supermajority was needed."
I understand why Metagross is being suspected again, but why is the "Metagross is needed to keep some threats in line" argument considered invalid this time around when it was valid during ORAS? By extension, why was the "necessary evil" argument considered valid during ORAS?
A big thing is that clefable was a super prominent threat back in oras, as was altaria because bulky offense was a common playstyle and altaria could smash balance cores. However, those fairy megas are unreleased, clefable has fallen out of favour except for stall, and many, many fairy checks were born in gen 7. Spdef jirachi, muk-a, av magearna, av magnezone, marowak-a can all handle fairies just fine, not to mention the strong presence of steels in this metagame like heatran, ferrothorn, mawile, etc.
Also, I started reading through the oras thread, and it looks like "we need megagross or f-fairies!" as an anti-ban reason got shot down back then too.
The suspect ladder is terrible. That's good enough reason to keep mega metagross, without even needing to get into any of this. As the community continues to ban offensive threats, defensive mons continue to become more prominent and semi-stall/bulky offense is becoming preferential to balance/offense/hyper offense. Everyone is running defensive cores like skarm/chansey or some version of toxapex/celesteela etc etc. Or they're just going full stall mode and trolling the ladder for their voting reqs. trying to play an offensive play style in this meta is absolutely a terrible idea and an even worse experience. I certainly haven't had fun at all since the suspect started.
You are all theorymonning metagross vs X scenarios. But who is actually enjoying the suspect meta right now? What metagame trends are you seeing and do you feel that they're healthy? Do you find any problem at all with continuing to tilt the meta towards a slower, defensive pace?
You are all theorymonning metagross vs X scenarios. But who is actually enjoying the suspect meta right now? What metagame trends are you seeing and do you feel that they're healthy? Do you find any problem at all with continuing to tilt the meta towards a slower, defensive pace?
Metagross is actually more of a restrictive threat to Offense than it is to Stall/Balance. More balanced teams take it on easily due to some absurd physical walls such as Skarm that just stop it cold and slowly chip at it. Metagross has a better matchup versus Offense because there are very few non-passive mons that enjoy switching into it (Scizor, phys Tang). So yeah Offense is actually easier to build and use in a non-Metagross meta, idk what you're talking about with these vague statements
I'm not necessarily keeping my thoughts narrowly on metagross; moreso I'm making statements based on my experience in the actual suspect metagame. I'm a consequentialist at heart, so a key question along those lines is "does removing metagross make the meta more fun?"
Is it? What positive trends have you actually observed in the meta?
Is it? What positive trends have you actually observed in the meta?
To be honest I haven't seen that much of a difference outside of bulky offensive teams using a different Mega than Gross, like Mawile. Regardless, idk how you can make such a stand on the meta game when Gross has only been gone for like 4 days, you shouldn't actually see that much of a shift in that time until the meta actually settles itself. I know I haven't seen some crazy shift to only fat teams. I have seen a lot of the spammable suspect ladder strats like BP, webs, and stall but I am pretty sure that is more for people trying to get easy reqs rather than an actual shift in the metagame.
Also, although I was saying I was leaning no ban at the beginning of this suspect as I'm closing in on reqs I am pretty sure I am going to vote Ban. I usually like to use more offensive/bulky offense and since the suspect ladder started I feel like no Gross has put a lot less stress on my teambuilding. Plus I have been using a lot of my bae Clef and that thing is ascending back to glory without Gross :)
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