Resource SM OU Viability Ranking Thread

[Deleted User 400951]

Zapdos to A.Disagree. Zapdos is certainly a cool Pokémon, but it doesn't need to rise imo. With TTar rising in usage, Zapdos suffers. Zapdos has coverage but generally bulky mons still switch into it without too much issue. I don't think Zapdos should move up or down right now.

The thing is, T-tar is ONE MON IN A- (tho imo it's worthy of A). Just one A-ranked mon that - while it does counter, doesn't want to get paralyzed by Discharge - shouldn't entirely negate other, more influential changes that are benefitting Zapdos, such as rain, scarf keldeo, Zard Y and Double Defog. In addition, Zapdos is not designed to break holes or anything in the opposing team. It's designed to be a tank, a Defogger or a sweeper with Agility. In addition, while Zapdos loses to stall because of Chansey and Clefable, it can prevent these mons from switching in and possible scare them out:
-Ferrothorn
-Sp Def Celesteela (even without investment Discharge is a 3hko)
-Toxapex (without investment it's 52% to 2hko which means no switching in)
-Mega Scizor
I'd say that's plenty, isn't it?
Overall, T-tar alone cannot negate Zapdos and while there is plenty of bulky mons that can switch in, Zapdos's wide coverage really reduces that number and lets it handle many bulky threats. I don't think that's enough of a reason to keep it from A.

Other than that, Vertex is just about 100% right with every one of his nominations and I agree with Latias to C+ (though C could also work). Niheligo can also drop. That's it for now. I might update later with more noms.
SOME NOMS:
Mega Manectric to B-: With the opportunity cost rising, this thing has less and less of a place in B. It can't handle T-tar, it just straight-up loses to double defog stall, and rain does have Mega Swampert and Kingdra to just sit there and laugh at it, regardless of whether rain is up. In addition, competition is rising with Mega Gallade, Mega Zard Y and Mega T-tar improving. I don't see this as more effective than Zard X, Azumarill or Mega Shark, and I don't see it on the level of Terrakion, Mega Slowbro, Excadrill or Hoopa-Unbound.
Mimikyu to B-: This tends to only fit on SW, which is falling off rn. While it's still good on TR, TR is not enough to justify this in B any longer.
Mantine to B+: This thing is so useful to have on teams. It walls Zard Y and Volcarona and thus lets teams with it not have to run a >100 scarfer. It also takes on rain very well and can remove hazards for one's team (tho imo it's a bad defogger, it works) while burning mons with Scald. This is nice role compression that IMO deserves a rise.
EDIT FOR POST BELOW:

Zapdos is also useless against Megazard X (bar Discharge Para), Mew, Chansey, Mega Venusaur, Tapu Koko, and Rotom-W off the top of my head.

Without investment/Heat Wave it is sucks against Ferrothorn, Scizor (Normal and Mega), Magearna, and more. It is not a bad mon but if it gets Poisoned it is crippled and certainly has switch-ins. I think Zapdos is nice and cosy in A-, and trying to raise it to the third highest ranking in the list is a bit much.

0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 252 HP / 168 SpD Ferrothorn: 252-300 (71.5 - 85.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Scizor-Mega: 288-340 (83.9 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
It is useless against AV Magearna but Shift Gear isn't taking it lightly:
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Magearna: 146-174 (48.5 - 57.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
And by the way, ZAPDOS ALWAYS CARRIES HEAT WAVE . IDK where you're getting the idea that it doesn't lol. It might not on Defog sets but IMO it should to beat Ferro and besides, those sets are meant for hazard removal, not to beat everything.
Zard X is very rare and imo it just sucks, Chansey as I said beats and Mew does too, Rotom-W is also rather rare in this meta and so is Mega Venu. It's also not meant to beat Koko lol. Normal Scizor is unviable and would likely be ohkoed regardless. And most mons that get poisoned do end up getting pressured lol this is no different for any other mon. And it can have plenty of switch-ins but so does A-ranked ones as well. Seeing this on the level of Chansey, Skarmory and Mega Sableye - stall only mons, Mega Hera which is hot garbage rn and needs to drop, Mega Medi which is terrible vs offense, and Pelipper which is slow and frail isn't right to me. I genuinely do see Zapdos on the level of Mega Mawile, Garchomp, and Toxapex rn.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

Zapdos is also useless against Megazard X (bar Discharge Para), Mew, Chansey, Mega Venusaur, Tapu Koko, and Rotom-W off the top of my head.

Without investment/Heat Wave it is sucks against Ferrothorn, Scizor (Normal and Mega), Magearna, and more. It is not a bad mon but if it gets Poisoned it is crippled and certainly has switch-ins. I think Zapdos is nice and cosy in A-, and trying to raise it to the third highest ranking in the list is a bit much.

Edit: If Defog Zapdos does carry Heat Wave it gets set up on by Zygarde, Lando, Garchomp, and basically any Dragon at all. The thing has massive 4MSS and isn't even unpredictable to the point that it is a problem to scout.

Also "ZAPDOS ALWAYS CARRIES HEAT WAVE" followed by "it might not on Defog sets".

I don't know how you can say Zapdos has the same impact as the A mons. I use Zapdos, it is a great mon, but it isn't as impactful in team builder or in the game as the A mons (and some other A- mons at that).

 

[Gary]

RANKING UPDATE

Rises

A ---> A+

C+ ---> B-

C+ ---> B-

Unranked ---> C-

Unranked ---> C-

Unranked ---> C-

Drops

B ---> B-

B ---> B-

C+ ---> C

C+ ---> C

C+ ---> C

C+ ---> C

C- ---> Unranked

• Dugtrio rising should be of no surprise. It's one of the hardest Pokemon to deal with in the meta simply because of its ability to trap and remove problematic Pokemon such as Heatran, T-tar, and Pex for its teammates, as well as being able to revenge kill weakened threats. While by itself it's a complete waste of a Pokemon, when paired with the right teammates, it becomes one of the best team supporters in the tier for its ability to make already very threatening Pokemon such as Zard-Y and Volcarona extremely difficult to deal with defensively, while also invalidating numerous would be stallbreakers, such as Heatran, Mega Mawile, and non Shed Shell Tapu Lele. Pex, one of the best defensive answers to Zard-Y in the tier, is forced to run Shed Shell, otherwise it's useless vs Zard-Y + Duggy, as it will just get trapped. Dugtrio's team support is very consistent, and when played correctly, realistically it has very little means of reliable counterplay in bad match ups. Its sheer presence forces games to be played so much more cautiously.
• Aurora Veil has practically overtaken Sticky Web as an HO playstyle. While Webs is by no means bad, more teams are well prepared for it these days. Aurora Veil's success comes from most teams having issues dealing with set up sweepers such as Landorus-T, Zygarde, and Suicune when behind Veil, as they are MUCH harder to revenge kill and practically impossible to OHKO at full. Much like Webs, it is able to overload the opponent's defensive cores with multiple set up sweepers and breakers so something else can come in late-game and clean up, and unlike Webs, Ninetales itself is at least useful in its ability to get up Veil multiple times throughout the match, as well as pose as a threat vs rain teams.
• All the Pokemon added recently to C- were added because of a small, defined niche each one has in the metagame. Araquanid is often seen on Trick Room builds for its ability to handle Ash Gren, one of the biggest threats to TR, better than anything else. While Crawdaunt packs dual STAB and set up, Araquanid's Water Bubble ability lets it not only pivot into the likes of Heatran (another huge TR threat) but also Wisp. CB Liquidation also hits extremely hard, and is only properly walled by the likes of bulky Grasses and Water-types.
• Empoleon has seen a bit of usage in WCOP recently. It has the niche of being a decent bulky Defogger with a good defensive typing, allowing it to check the likes of Greninja, Latios, and Tapu Lele. Shuca Berry is also a very nice item on it, as it can bait in the likes of Landorus-T/Zygarde, and OHKO them with Ice Beam, which is especially useful vs offensive SR Lando.
• Infernape has seen marginal usage in WCOP as well, although less than Empoleon. Its niche in the metagame is as a Choice Scarfer that can revenge kill Volcarona as well as a good STAB combo which is useful for the likes of Shift Gear Magearna and Mega T-tar. U-turn is also really nice too, as it keeps it from losing momentum on predicted switch-ins.
• All of the Pokemon that dropped should be self-explanatory, as they have seen practically zero success in any major tournament matches, and are just BL awful.

Sorry if this was a boring update, but considering how stable the upper ranks have been this last week, we thought it best to clean up the lower ranks which were starting to look a little dated. Also as of now, the ranking team is not looking at rising Zard-X anytime soon, so I don't see much of a reason to continue discussing it.

Once again, I apologize for no discussion slate, but the meta has just been overall pretty stable atm, so there's nothing in particular we are considering moving for the time being. If you have a question regarding the rank changes, please PM a council member before posting in here. Behave!

 

[Assaltwaffle]

I am sad to hear that the team isn't hearing the Zard X argument. I guess I shouldn't be mad though, since fewer people will expect it than if it rose.

Pretty much support everything else that was said though. The ranking movement all makes sense.

 

[Subject 18]

Okay, I'm gonna make this quick post kind of explaining why Zard X isn't going to moved up anytime soon. Zard X still has the same issues that is has had all gen long, it can't really break teams like it did in ORAS because the meta doesn't bend over to it's duel stabs. Running Flare Blitz + Dclaw / Outrage, doesn't give you the coverage to break the like of Fini or Toxapex. Now if you chose to run Thunder Punch, you've dropped Roost meaning you're easier to wear down and deal with cuz you can't heal back up.

Now you can make the argument that you can provide it with support to alleviate the issues it has, however at that point you've dedicate 3 slots to just make sure it can operate, leaving you with 2 slots to cover a number of threats which you really can't at that point. This is the same issue I have with Zard Y teams, since both require specific Pokemon to support it for it to function. Leading to nearly every Zard X / Y team looking the exact same, but that's a different issue. Even if you run this support for Zard X the consistency of being able to sweep or break teams. This isn't even mention how horrid Zard X is in matchup vs Rain. Unlike Zard Y who actually can pose as a threat vs Rain since you remove the weather and pressure most of those teams if played correctly.

-----

If you are wondering about Hawlucha being moved up, it basically has flown under the radar for a while. NJNP made a couple good rain teams with it that have shown it to be fairly considered good. Electric Seed + Koko or Psychic Seed + Lele are good cores as both give you a boost in Defense or SpDef to make it harder for certain Pokemon to revenge kill you and giving you a harder time to sweep. It's grown to be a bigger threat recently, hence why it was moved it.

Hope that answers some concerns.

 

[Assaltwaffle]

As someone who has had to fight off Toxapexs with Zard X, unless they have Toxic, they lose. Even with Haze they will run out of Recovers before you run out of DClaws. The only hard support it needs is from Pokemon like Tyranitar and Bulu. Other than that you can just cover the meta with your last 3 picks. I feel like the entire reason for Zard X not getting moved is the fact that people just want to set up turn 1 and GO. No one does that, nor should they. You break down teams and create openings to setup on. Even if you can't sweep a game, outside of Tapu Fini few mons enjoy eating its unboosted STAB. In a meta that Koko, Mew, and similar Pokemon are rising, Megazard X is gaining footing once again.

I strongly believe it was bandwagoned on the back of new "counters" down to where it is, and if the only arguments for it staying down are what are currently presented I really don't agree with the current stagnation and lack of openness being displayed. It has been so long since people have seen Megazard X in the meta that people seem to have this stigma that it is bad and unusable (at least in comparatively), even if meta trends favor it. It is 100% better than Megas like Venu and Slowbro (which really gets dumpstered by a solid portion of the meta). I know this post may be deleted since the council seems so firm about this, but I just have to get this off my chest.

 

[QuickBH]

Just want to say thanks for ranking Infernape and Empoleon! I think that Infernape is much more useful and does better than half of the C rank due to how significantly better he pairs against the meta compared to the others. However, I can only assume that it's because the C rank is being cleaned up and that these mons were only recently ranked. :)

 

[njnp]

 

[Threw]

I know this is late but Subject 18's puzzles me so immensely that I feel the need to comment. His argument completely ignores the many upsides to Zard X. This is a mon that takes incredible advantage of/serves as a great offensive check to quite a lot of metagame staples such as Mew, Clef, Magearna, Bulu, non-Fairium Koko, Volc, Sciz, etc. The list goes on, you get the idea. I don't see T Punch as particularly worth running should you choose to drop Roost; EQ is the best coverage, as it allows you to OHKO Tran and still invalidates Pex as any sort of answer. Fini has been and still is one of the most notoriously easy-to-wear-down support mons in the tier, and all you have to do is get it to half and it drops to +1 Blitz; likewise, Mantine and defensive Pelipper take too much from Claw after rocks to be considered actual answers.

All that said, I see Roost Zard X + Duggy as the best approach, since Duggy is, of course, a ridiculous mon, and the fact that it pairs so naturally well with Zard is a great boon. Roost is great because it maximizes the setup opportunities and honestly incredible defensive utility that Zard X brings to the table considering it is such a potent offensive mon. It also largely invalidates the very commonly seen strategy of beating Zard X by baiting out Flare Blitz and forcing it to KO itself with recoil before it can do too much damage. Also keep in mind that while Shed Shell is virtually standard on Pex by now, Pex without passive recovery actually drops to two +1 D Claws after rocks, which is extremely relevant because they are increasingly dropping Haze for either Toxic + T Spikes or Infestation.

A few more not-exactly-related pluses for this mon: the 101+ Scarfer trend doesn't even bother Zard X since the most common scarfers that outspeed it either straight up drop if they come hard into D Claw (Lati and Chomper) or take so much damage that they are severely crippled for the rest of the fight (Keldeo and Gren). As has been mentioned several times in this thread, more Landos than ever are offensive, and offensive Fire-types are especially menacing in this metagame. There seems to be this weird stigma that Zard X is a mon that needs to setup to be effective - this is simply untrue. It can pressure a ton of teams just by clicking its STABs simply because a second DD is such a huge threat. Finally, yes, the recoil from Flare Blitz combined with its mediocre Speed tier and its significant weakness to every hazard makes it a bit more of a pain to support than certain other sweepers, but the very same can be said about Volc, which it has some notable advantages over, the most important being more defensive utility and more setup opportunities.

TL;DR: Zard X is a solid mon that doesn't belong in the same rank as super niche stuff like Nihilego and Nidoking. It does belong in the same rank as Gastrodon, though, because that mon needs to move up!

 

[tigers jaw]

something about latias dropping even further

yeah, no. seeing as latios's flagship set in the meta is scarf, and the only set you should be running on latias is also scarf, there's not really much of a distinction to be made between the two (other than like better rolls vs. greninja and other situational things such as that). latios is primarily used as a secondary water resist, a pseudo ground immune, a volcarona check, a (shaky) zard-y check, and fast hazard removal. latias is used for literally all the same reasons but has the boon of healing wish, which is seriously slept on.

check out this replay of malekith vs. zamrock. had malekith brought latios instead of latias, they would have more than likely lost in the lategame, but thanks to healing wish, mega gyarados was able to pull through. another replay to take a look at featuring latias and the utility that healing wish provides is pearl vs. lax. unfortunately, pearl wasn't able to pull through after the healing wish play into heatran, but it at least gave them a fighting chance.

if anything i'd sooner advocate a rise for latias than a drop.

also completely agree with threw regarding gastrodon. that pokemon is so insanely splashable as the most solid electric, ninja, and magearna check going. faces competition from toxapex, but so much role compression in one slot is too good to pass up on on builds that prefer electric checks over zard-y answers. very consistent pokemon that i consider amongst the top 3 defensive water-types in ou.

 

[Gary]

No. More. Zard-X discussion.

 

[MR_kiddles]

Tapu lele A--->A-



Nominating Tapu lele for a drop to A-. Tapu lele has been a pokemon that I have used extensively and happens to be one of my fav pokemons but I have to say I don't think this mon deserves a rank anymore. The problem with Tapu lele is its poor coverage and the fact that on its most popular sets (choice scarf and specs) it is forced to be extremely prediction reliant. Now dont get me wrong I dont think either of its sets are intrinsically bad, rather I think the meta has just adapted too much for it to be as effective as it once was. Most teams that I have faced have at least two steels and possibly a greninja, for the specs set this means that rather than being able to strictly just spam its high powered stabs its forced into a position in which it must predict. Now this is not uncommon for wallbreakers but when as I mentioned before most teams run at least two mons that are resistant to its stabs the probability of you predicting correctly is just never really in your favour, you may use psychic but the opponent switches in celeestea meaning you are going to switch out in fear of its stab practically guaranteeing that your next mon is going to be leech seeded. Or your opponent predicts the psychic so they switch in ttar pursuit locking you in the process. I simply believe there are too many variables to allow for tapu lele to do its job properly, when it is supposed to wallbreak but the walls its supposed to break can tank a move if you predict wrong it kind of defeats the purpose of using a wallbrekaer

 

[robopoke]

Unranked -> C-

Hoopa @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock / Focus Blast / Energy Ball

I saw Omari P use this Set so I want to respect that and give shoutouts to him.
EVs make sure you get the Iapapa after 3 Subs. Rest was put into Speed and Special Attack.

This sounds weird but regular Hoopa does a better job at breaking down defensive cores than Hoopa-U. This Set is basicly a 100% win against any Stallteam who do not utilize Pursuit. But why is this Set successfull against fat teams?
Being a Ghost-Type means you get free Subs against Chansey which results into a free Nasty Plot. Shadow Ball might not 2HKO Unaware Clefable, but you can fish for Spdef drops or Sub down to activate the Iapapa, which then allows you to steal the Leftovers making Shadow Ball deadlier.

Having Ghost over Darktyping allows you to not take supereffective damage from Moonblasts and Fleur Cannons and to not be trapped by Dugtrio (Pursuit usage has decreased alot).

This Set is not only good against Stall, but also viable against any playstyle that has that one fat mon like Toxapex or Mew you can get a free Sub against.
Sadly, the only Stallplayer I faced hid the room and I want to respect that by not posting private replays. I basicly 5-0ed him with Hoopa after I got a free Sub and thus a free Nasty Plot against Chansey. Tangrowth, whose AV was already Knocked Off by my Clefable cannot eat +2 Shadow Ball and everything else just dropped. (Even if Tangrowth had AV, I still had my free Sub)

Here are some replays against nonstallteams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-606499122
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-606527209

 

[VannAccessible]

Unranked -> C-

Hoopa @ Iapapa Berry
Ability: Magician
EVs: 12 HP / 244 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Substitute
- Shadow Ball
- Psyshock / Focus Blast / Energy Ball

I saw Omari P use this Set so I want to respect that and give shoutouts to him.
EVs make sure you get the Iapapa after 3 Subs. Rest was put into Speed and Special Attack.

This sounds weird but regular Hoopa does a better job at breaking down defensive cores than Hoopa-U. This Set is basicly a 100% win against any Stallteam who do not utilize Pursuit. But why is this Set successfull against fat teams?
Being a Ghost-Type means you get free Subs against Chansey which results into a free Nasty Plot. Shadow Ball might not 2HKO Unaware Clefable, but you can fish for Spdef drops or Sub down to activate the Iapapa, which then allows you to steal the Leftovers making Shadow Ball deadlier.

Having Ghost over Darktyping allows you to not take supereffective damage from Moonblasts and Fleur Cannons and to not be trapped by Dugtrio (Pursuit usage has decreased alot).

This Set is not only good against Stall, but also viable against any playstyle that has that one fat mon like Toxapex or Mew you can get a free Sub against.
Sadly, the only Stallplayer I faced hid the room and I want to respect that by not posting private replays. I basicly 5-0ed him with Hoopa after I got a free Sub and thus a free Nasty Plot against Chansey. Tangrowth, whose AV was already Knocked Off by my Clefable cannot eat +2 Shadow Ball and everything else just dropped. (Even if Tangrowth had AV, I still had my free Sub)

Here are some replays against nonstallteams:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-606499122
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-606527209

I've seen this set and it is indeed annoying. Activating Magician is particularly brilliant, making Hoopa steal the foe's item.

I've used CM Sub Chandelure last gen against stall to similar effect, which is nice at handling both Chansey and Sub Toxic Heatran. Greninja's presence would probably hurt it now though.

 

[Empo]

from b- to b

i'm a fan of gastrodon, and i do think this pokemon is good at moment for some reasons. first off, water ground typing is pretty nice, and gastrodons ability helps it to check the most common and spammed threats nowadays, for example greninja / ash greninja, tapu koko, vincune, and so on. its special defense stat is really good, indeed it can function as a sponge for many teams and proceed to eat and heal up the damage done and just toxic to help wearing down some threats quickly. main function is, indeed, being "annoying" thanks to toxic and scald, both moves really seen on pretty much every gastrodon set. you can run both sets (physdef / specialdef) but i reckon specialdef is better atm. you just gotta pack some grass resistance and ground ones while building around gastrodon and i think this pokemon does really put in work. some replays stolen from wcop thread if anyone is interested: 1 2 3

 

[quziel]

Volc => A rank:

Lets be honest, every single relevant scarfer is over 100 speed, people are packing Mantine and Tyranitar commonly, and Zard-Y is stealing a lot of this mon's thunder, as Charizard breaks bulkier teams so easily, and offensive teams don't necessarily give volc the freedom to set up unscathed. While Charti is really nice, the rise of scarf Greninja, and its Rock Slide means that isn't reliable as a way to survive being revenged, especially with that set's main target, Keldeo, falling out of usage a bit. This, as well as the rise of Tyranitar (not an amazing check, but still tanks hits and OHKOs back, Bug-Z excepted) mean that its arguably not as effective against offense as it was in the past.

Vs. balance, it struggles against the recent rise of Mantine, as well as Toxapex running Eject Button, forcing it to run Psychium-z or pray that knock off lets Dugtrio remove pex. In the balance and stall matchup, Charizard-Y arguably eclipses it due to greater initial power, and much stronger coverage, as well as arguably better synergy with Dugtrio (no Z-move on Zard). As a sweeper, the rise of Shift Gear Magearna means Volcarona is no longer the only game in town, as Magearna is arguably a lot harder to revenge kill, lacking the exploitable weaknesses of Volcarona, and arguably requires less team support, while being arguably as flexible with its sets.

With so many potent wallbreakers running Z-moves these days, Volcarona has to think a lot more about its item choice, as running Firium, Bugium, or Psychium-Z mean it can no longer be ran with arguably offense's best rocker, Offensive Rocks Landorus (either variant), and one of its best partners, Dugtrio, is increasingly running Groundium-Z, as well as worrying about any of the tier's other potent Z-wallbreakers.

Volcarona has been hurt due to the rise of one of its better answers in Mantine, the increased safety of another answer with Shed Shell Toxapex, the rise in opportunity cost of Z-moves, and the rise of effective countermeasures such as Tyranitar, its Mega-Variant and Rock Slide Scarf Greninja, as well as increased competition in its wallbreaking and sweeping, with Charizard-Mega-Y and Shift Gear Magearna.

 

[Dreadfury]

Volc => A rank:

Lets be honest, every single relevant scarfer is over 100 speed, people are packing Mantine and Tyranitar commonly, and Zard-Y is stealing a lot of this mon's thunder, as Charizard breaks bulkier teams so easily, and offensive teams don't necessarily give volc the freedom to set up. While Charti is really nice, the rise of scarf Greninja, and its Rock Slide means that isn't reliable as a way to survive being revenged, especially with that set's main target, Keldeo, falling out of usage a bit. This, as well as the rise of Tyranitar (not an amazing check, but still tanks hits and OHKOs back, Bug-Z excepted) mean that its arguably not as effective against offense as it was in the past.

Vs. balance, it struggles against the recent rise of Mantine, as well as Toxapex running Eject Button, forcing it to run Psychium-z or pray that knock off lets Dugtrio remove pex. In the balance and stall matchup, Charizard-Y arguably eclipses it due to greater initial power, and much stronger coverage, as well as arguably better synergy with Dugtrio (no Z-move on Zard). As a sweeper, the rise of Shift Gear Magearna means Volcarona is no longer the only game in town, as Magearna is arguably a lot harder to revenge kill, lacking the exploitable weaknesses of Volcarona, and arguably requires less team support, while being arguably as flexible with its sets.

With so many potent wallbreakers running Z-moves these days, Volcarona has to think a lot more about its item choice, as running Firium, Bugium, or Psychium-Z mean it can no longer be ran with arguably offense's best rocker, Offensive Rocks Landorus (either variant), and one of its best partners, Dugtrio, is increasingly running Groundium-Z, as well as worrying about any of the tier's other potent Z-wallbreakers.

Volcarona has been hurt due to the rise of one of its better answers in Mantine, the increased safety of another answer with Shed Shell Toxapex, the rise in opportunity cost of Z-moves, and the rise of effective countermeasures such as Tyranitar, its Mega-Variant and Rock Slide Scarf Greninja, as well as increased competition in its wallbreaking and sweeping, with Charizard-Mega-Y and Shift Gear Magearna.

Volc is not dropping. It is still by far the best at its role and I made a post several pages ago that highlighted exactly why almost any argument involving Volc dropping is grasping at straws.

ALSO, Zard Y isn't really stealing its thunder. At all. Zard Y is a wallbreaker right off the bat but a +1 Volcarona is a sweeper that can and more often than not will steamroll through an unprepared team.

EDIT: And while we're at it, I completely agree with a Gastrodon rise. I love this mon!

 

[AK THE LEGEND]

Tapu lele A--->A-



Nominating Tapu lele for a drop to A-. Tapu lele has been a pokemon that I have used extensively and happens to be one of my fav pokemons but I have to say I don't think this mon deserves a rank anymore. The problem with Tapu lele is its poor coverage and the fact that on its most popular sets (choice scarf and specs) it is forced to be extremely prediction reliant. Now dont get me wrong I dont think either of its sets are intrinsically bad, rather I think the meta has just adapted too much for it to be as effective as it once was. Most teams that I have faced have at least two steels and possibly a greninja, for the specs set this means that rather than being able to strictly just spam its high powered stabs its forced into a position in which it must predict. Now this is not uncommon for wallbreakers but when as I mentioned before most teams run at least two mons that are resistant to its stabs the probability of you predicting correctly is just never really in your favour, you may use psychic but the opponent switches in celeestea meaning you are going to switch out in fear of its stab practically guaranteeing that your next mon is going to be leech seeded. Or your opponent predicts the psychic so they switch in ttar pursuit locking you in the process. I simply believe there are too many variables to allow for tapu lele to do its job properly, when it is supposed to wallbreak but the walls its supposed to break can tank a move if you predict wrong it kind of defeats the purpose of using a wallbrekaer

Tapu Lele works best as a late game sweeper. Once you weaken all its checks, Lele just spams moonblast/psychich to win the game. IMO its the best scarfer that fits that role. Also, since lele is always scarfed, or specs, mons will always switch out to lele's checks and that gives u the ability to double out and claim a kill. For instance, one of ur mons just died and so u bring out scarfed lele. Your opponent will, most likely, or always switch to a lele check such as ferrothorn or celesteela. Knowing that you can easily double to heatran or zard y and claim a kill/sub or free rocks. It is def worthy of an A.

 

[Steel With It]

The general rule over the years has been that Gastro's rank depends on rain's popularity - and between MegaPert's release and the dominance of obscenely powerful Fire-types, it's bloody everywhere right now. A rise for the sea slug is long overdue.

 

[OldAmberPlays]

While Mantine can hold rain teams by itself (bar Koko and Stone Edge Mega Swampert), Gastrodon can do it very well too, while checking the bolt-beam Magearna at +1 and, if it is the Fightinium Z set and have already used the All-Out Pummeling, it's walled too.

+1 252 SpA Magearna Focus Blast vs. 240 HP / 220+ SpD Gastrodon: 165-195 (39 - 46%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery*

+1 252 SpA Magearna Ice Beam vs. 240 HP / 220+ SpD Gastrodon: 124-147 (29.3 - 34.7%) -- 55.8% chance to 3HKO after 2 layers of Spikes and Leftovers recovery*

0 Atk Gastrodon Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 164-194 (54.4 - 64.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

*Two layers of spikes so Magearna have a initial chance to 2HKO Gastrodon from full lol

Plus, with 48 EV in Def, Gastrodon can check Scarf Keldeo after 1 layer os Spikes with a very good margin too (obviously, with only SR, Keldeo will never 2HKO Gastrodon unless you are victim of a critical hit)

252 SpA Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 240 HP / 48 Def Gastrodon: 178-210 (42 - 49.6%) -- 25.8% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery

So yeah, I am favorable with the Gastrodon rise.

 

[Deleted User 400951]

First off I'll repeat some noms I still feel need to pass through:

SOME NOMS:
Mega Manectric to B-: With the opportunity cost rising, this thing has less and less of a place in B. It can't handle T-tar, it just straight-up loses to double defog stall, and rain does have Mega Swampert and Kingdra to just sit there and laugh at it, regardless of whether rain is up. In addition, competition is rising with Mega Gallade, Mega Zard Y and Mega T-tar improving. I don't see this as more effective than Zard X, Azumarill or Mega Shark, and I don't see it on the level of Terrakion, Mega Slowbro, Excadrill or Hoopa-Unbound.
Mimikyu to B-: This tends to only fit on SW, which is falling off rn. While it's still good on TR, TR is not enough to justify this in B any longer.
Mantine to B+: This thing is so useful to have on teams. It walls Zard Y and Volcarona and thus lets teams with it not have to run a >100 scarfer. It also takes on rain very well and can remove hazards for one's team (tho imo it's a bad defogger, it works) while burning mons with Scald. This is nice role compression that IMO deserves a rise.

Now, for the further scourging of the B ranks (meaning B+ and B- too)
Salamence to C+ - No reason to use this over Gyrados rn sans the 100 base speed - insignificant as it's gonna get revenged with the >100 scarfers anyways. It has a terrible defensive typing and not enough bulk, making it very hard to set up in this current meta.
Bisharp to B - Webs is dying and this was at its best on webs. Outside of it, it loses to bulky steels and it loses to rain. It also loses to the rising Tapu Koko.
Togekiss to C+ - Honestly, it's not very good right now. Its only niche is a stallbreaker, but it loses to Chansey, Clefable and even Zapdos without significant hax on its favor. Air Slash is a weak STAB move and there are plenty of flying resists or mons just flat-out capable of taking them on stall. I don't see this, a failing stallbreaker, as good as Ninetales-A, the heart of AV, Smeargle, the heart of the still-ok SW, Nihilego, a decent scarfer, Mega Gardevoir, a very strong breaker or Muk-A, a great Pursuit trapper and special tank. I also have no problem seeing this on the level of Mega Aero, Cofagrigus or Mega Chomp.

On a final note, I'd like to second Gastrodon to B rank because this thing truly walls rain.

And now it's time for the C ranks:
Dragonite to C - As a DDer it's just too easily neutered. You have >100 scarfers everywhere that'll outspeed it at +1. While it can get to +2 with its bulk, it needs SR off the field - not easy to do - and since it doesn't run Roost, it can be pressured and be prevented from setting up twice. At +1 it's just rather underwhelming. The opportunity cost of the Z-move slot is also too great. I consider Salamence, a mon I believe belongs in C+ and is a DDer, much better at its job with the potential to snowball out of control. I also consider Cofagrigus and Scolipede better sweepers. This doesn't seem out of place with Buzzwole, Cresselia, and Thundurus-Therian rn.
Gyarados-Mega to C - This just sucks. At +1 it can't really sweep and it's never getting to +2 with that god-awful defensive typing. The opportunity cost is rising with new megas being released. There's also an opp. cost compared to regular Gyarados, which honestly is just a much better sweeper. Honestly I'm even considering C-.
Breloom to UR - I haven't seen it at all this gen and it's not hard to see why. Terrible defensive typing, terrible bulk, terrible speed with Mach Punch being negated by Psychic Terrain, and Spore losing out with Tangrowth and Electric/Misty terrain everywhere. Rain outspeeds and kills, it can't really do much to bulky steels and double defog stall doesn't have issues at all. No reason to use.
Magneton to UR - With Magnezone falling off, I don't see why this is here. IK it's used as a choice scarfer that has an ok speed tier to beat stuff like gren but honestly it's supposed to trap steels and when it can't do that well enough anymore it's time for it to get UR.
Kabutops to UR - Mega Swampert just about 100% outclasses it.

The A ranks are pretty stable rn, no need to discuss changes there except for my previous two noms. I hate to seem rude or anything of the sort, but may I ask why Zapdos and Tyranitar weren't raised, particularly Tyranitar?

EDITS:

Salamence I agree. there is almost no reason to use it over gyarados.
Bisharp I think is fine in B+. Sure, Sticky Web is worse now, but Bisharp can also discourage defog in AV teams, which have been on the rise.
Kabutops has a niche in not using the mega slot, in case you want to use a steel type mega. Generally Mega swampert is the better option however, which is why Kabutops is in C rank
I agree with about everything else you said though.
EDIT: Gyarados Megas niche is that it can break past stall thanks to moldbreaker, allawoing it to easily dispatch Unaware clefable. In addition, it does not have to mega evolve right away so it can check Pokémon like charizard Y and Keldeo. Gyarados mega is fine in c+, it's never been amazing anyway.

I disagree with Kabutops being UR

Kabutops has niches over Mega Swampert, namely, Rock STAB, access to a Z move, not being a mega (Allowing you to run something like Mega Scizor), and acces to SD and Rapid Spin

Is still not as good as Mega Swampert, but that's why Mega Swampert is B+ and Kabutops is C

Mega Swampert is pretty much THE premier swift swim sweeper on rain teams for its defensive utility, sheer power and wide coverage. Honestly, Ground > Rock both offensively and defensively, and Mega Swampert's insane bulk more than makes up for both the mega slot and the somewhat lower speed. In addition, Offensive Z-Fly Lando is a great fit on rain teams and by using the Z-Move on Kabutops you're giving it up. Honestly I'd rather have those two than Kabutops.

Bisharp is gonna take me a long time to write up so I'll fully flesh it out later, but tl;dr rain's no good for it, Duggy + Zard Y is absolutely terrible for it and it alone could drop it to B, Koko beats it, bulky steels beat it. All of these are rising, and Bisharp just reacts terribly to these.

Gyarados-Mega has virtually no utility vs offense, as it's just too slow and has too poor a defensive typing. Against stall, it ails vs Skarmory (3hkoed but can roost away and phase out if you don't have Taunt), and Sash Dugtrio can use Reversal and OHKO. Honestly, I don't see it on the level of Mega Aero, which outspeeds almost every scarfer and can just straight-up sweep offensive teams late game, Mega Garchomp whose SD set murders any form of stall far better than Mega Gyara ever could, Manaphy which is a better balance breaker, or Scolipede, which uses Speed Boost to circumvent any revenge killers.
As for what got worse for it, it's the new stall. Double Defog just shits on it. If Zapdos gets in free and pulls off a discharge, Mega Gyara is going to take significant damage. If it's paralyzed, game over. Skarm, as I said, beats it, along with Duggy. Also, it can't break through Ferrothorn, anything offensive that's rising sans rain is bad for it. It's that bad vs offense. The release of Lopunny and Gallade-Mega hurt it a lot. Lopunny still outspeeds at +1 and kills, whereas Gallade provides competition by being better vs balance while still not losing to stall given that mega sableye is taken out for it.

MORE EDITS:

I think Salamence is fine in b-. Sure it receives massive competition from gyarados, but it's niche like you said was its base 100 speed, meaning it's not outsped by choice scarf lele. Salamence also benefits from the rise of mantine, which means less over base 100 speed scarfers for it to be worried about. While this is not enough to make it rise, it is enough for it to be just as good if not better than garbage like Smeargle

lol ok Smeargle is garbage now? It's still the face of SW and SW is still decent in the meta. Oh, let's go over some other B- mons too:
-Hawlucha can and will win games, but without taking up a Z-move and a lot faster too. It might not be as powerful as Salamence but it makes up for it with a +2 attack boost, much higher speed, high-powered STAB moves outside of a Z-Move and a better STAB combo.
-Muk-Alolan is a great pursuit trapper and special tank.
-Mega Gardevoir is a good wallbreaker that, given the support to beat Steels, can proceed to break the rest of the team's defensive core.
-Azumarill, another wallbreaker that has powerful priority to punish offense.
And then we have Salamence, a mon that will almost never sweep with such a poor base speed for a sweeper, that relies on a Z-Move to do anything and that has a terrible stab otherwise. I've never seen this thing sweep because stopping it is so easy. Just put a bulky steel in your team, or something bulky in general. SR is also a notable thorn because it's that easier to revenge. In addition, keep a fairy alive after the Z-Move and it's useless. Honestly, it's been pushed for months for this thing to drop and I fail to see why it hasn't.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

First off I'll repeat some noms I still feel need to pass through:

Now, for the further scourging of the B ranks (meaning B+ and B- too)
Salamence to C+ - No reason to use this over Gyrados rn sans the 100 base speed - insignificant as it's gonna get revenged with the >100 scarfers anyways. It has a terrible defensive typing and not enough bulk, making it very hard to set up in this current meta.
Bisharp to B - Webs is dying and this was at its best on webs. Outside of it, it loses to bulky steels and it loses to rain. It also loses to the rising Tapu Koko.
And now it's time for the C ranks:
Dragonite to C - As a DDer it's just too easily neutered. You have >100 scarfers everywhere that'll outspeed it at +1. While it can get to +2 with its bulk, it needs SR off the field - not easy to do - and since it doesn't run Roost, it can be pressured and be prevented from setting up twice. At +1 it's just rather underwhelming. The opportunity cost of the Z-move slot is also too great. I consider Salamence, a mon I believe belongs in C+ and is a DDer, much better at its job with the potential to snowball out of control. I also consider Cofagrigus and Scolipede better sweepers. This doesn't seem out of place with Buzzwole, Cresselia, and Thundurus-Therian rn.
Gyarados-Mega to C - This just sucks. At +1 it can't really sweep and it's never getting to +2 with that god-awful defensive typing. The opportunity cost is rising with new megas being released. There's also an opp. cost compared to regular Gyarados, which honestly is just a much better sweeper. Honestly I'm even considering C- or even UR.
Breloom to UR - I haven't seen it at all this gen and it's not hard to see why. Terrible defensive typing, terrible bulk, terrible speed with Mach Punch being negated by Psychic Terrain, and Spore losing out with Tangrowth and Electric/Misty terrain everywhere. Rain outspeeds and kills, it can't really do much to bulky steels and double defog stall doesn't have issues at all. No reason to use.
Magneton to UR - With Magnezone falling off, I don't see why this is here. IK it's used as a choice scarfer that has an ok speed tier to beat stuff like gren but honestly it's supposed to trap steels and when it can't do that well enough anymore it's time for it to get UR.
Kabutops to UR - Mega Swampert just about 100% outclasses it.

The A ranks are pretty stable rn, no need to discuss changes there except for my previous two noms. I hate to seem rude or anything of the sort, but may I ask why Zapdos and Tyranitar weren't raised, particularly Tyranitar?

I think Salamence is fine in b-. Sure it receives massive competition from gyarados, but it's niche like you said was its base 100 speed, meaning it's not outsped by choice scarf lele. Salamence also benefits from the rise of mantine, which means less over base 100 speed scarfers for it to be worried about. While this is not enough to make it rise, it is enough for it to be just as good if not better than garbage like Smeargle
Bisharp I think is fine in B+. Sure, Sticky Web is worse now, but Bisharp can also discourage defog in AV teams, which have been on the rise.
Kabutops has a niche in not using the mega slot, in case you want to use a steel type mega. Generally Mega swampert is the better option however, which is why Kabutops is in C rank
Dragonite is fine in c+ as none of the problems you mentioned are new.

 

[Zukrad]

First off I'll repeat some noms I still feel need to pass through:

Now, for the further scourging of the B ranks (meaning B+ and B- too)
Salamence to C+ - No reason to use this over Gyrados rn sans the 100 base speed - insignificant as it's gonna get revenged with the >100 scarfers anyways. It has a terrible defensive typing and not enough bulk, making it very hard to set up in this current meta.
Bisharp to B - Webs is dying and this was at its best on webs. Outside of it, it loses to bulky steels and it loses to rain. It also loses to the rising Tapu Koko.
And now it's time for the C ranks:
Dragonite to C - As a DDer it's just too easily neutered. You have >100 scarfers everywhere that'll outspeed it at +1. While it can get to +2 with its bulk, it needs SR off the field - not easy to do - and since it doesn't run Roost, it can be pressured and be prevented from setting up twice. At +1 it's just rather underwhelming. The opportunity cost of the Z-move slot is also too great. I consider Salamence, a mon I believe belongs in C+ and is a DDer, much better at its job with the potential to snowball out of control. I also consider Cofagrigus and Scolipede better sweepers. This doesn't seem out of place with Buzzwole, Cresselia, and Thundurus-Therian rn.
Gyarados-Mega to C - This just sucks. At +1 it can't really sweep and it's never getting to +2 with that god-awful defensive typing. The opportunity cost is rising with new megas being released. There's also an opp. cost compared to regular Gyarados, which honestly is just a much better sweeper. Honestly I'm even considering C- or even UR.
Breloom to UR - I haven't seen it at all this gen and it's not hard to see why. Terrible defensive typing, terrible bulk, terrible speed with Mach Punch being negated by Psychic Terrain, and Spore losing out with Tangrowth and Electric/Misty terrain everywhere. Rain outspeeds and kills, it can't really do much to bulky steels and double defog stall doesn't have issues at all. No reason to use.
Magneton to UR - With Magnezone falling off, I don't see why this is here. IK it's used as a choice scarfer that has an ok speed tier to beat stuff like gren but honestly it's supposed to trap steels and when it can't do that well enough anymore it's time for it to get UR.
Kabutops to UR - Mega Swampert just about 100% outclasses it.

The A ranks are pretty stable rn, no need to discuss changes there except for my previous two noms. I hate to seem rude or anything of the sort, but may I ask why Zapdos and Tyranitar weren't raised, particularly Tyranitar?

I disagree with Kabutops being UR

Kabutops has niches over Mega Swampert, namely, Rock STAB, access to a Z move, not being a mega (Allowing you to run something like Mega Scizor), and access to SD and Rapid Spin

Is still not as good as Mega Swampert, but that's why Mega Swampert is B+ and Kabutops is C

 

[The Real JEdelman]

What makes Mega TTar A- rank? It doesnt have any new moves from SM that it didnt have in ORAS and it gained multiple checks in tapu bulu, kartana, mega mawile, tapu fini, tapu lele. Plus, it comes at a huge cost of not being able to run mega mawile (more power), mega medicham (more power and more speed). On top of that, youre forfeiting what makes TTar so good as a trapper with the immediate buff from scarf or band

 

[Primal Bidoof]

What makes Mega TTar A- rank? It doesnt have any new moves from SM that it didnt have in ORAS and it gained multiple checks in tapu bulu, kartana, mega mawile, tapu fini, tapu lele. Plus, it comes at a huge cost of not being able to run mega mawile (more power), mega medicham (more power and more speed). On top of that, youre forfeiting what makes TTar so good as a trapper with the immediate buff from scarf or band

TTar is an amazing setup sweeper, with nice natural bulk to back it up, added with sandstorm spdef boosts. Essentially, it loses its choice band for the cost of a move and pursuit, and that 1 move, dragon dance, gives it the effects of a band and scarf at the same time, but loses it's job as a setup sweeper. It is one of them that gain speed, so unlike mega mawile or kartana, so it just makes the job easier. No one wants to take a +1 stone edge coming off a 427 attack stat. Under veil, you might as well give up. With 100/150/120 defenses, along with sandstorm boost, and veil, you will have fun killing it. Theres not a huge reason not to use mega ttar, while it takes your mega slot, it can be a very effective sweeper or late game cleaner.