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I decided to get out a quick update before things really taper off pre-exhibition and tier shifts, this covers everything up to but not including the Beheeyem nom because that was posted a few hours after we started voting.
Passimian B+ to A
Togedemaru B+ to A-
Musharna A to A-
Absol B+ to B
Drifblim C to C-
Duosion D to Unranked
We didn't vote on anything not brought up in the thread so there's reasoning for this stuff above, but basically both Passimian and Togedemaru have stayed really strong since their USUM buffs and we were a bit too conservative moving them up earlier. Passimian in particular is just a massive threat capable of giving any team a headache and is really notable for having much more defensive presence than other really strong wallbreakers like Zangoose. As always you can see everything we voted on here.
Mentioned this in the council chat, but this thread hasn't been too active so I think this'll spark discussion. When trying to decrease the size of B+, we accidentally made A- wayy too big, however there isnt even a large variation in the rank so its not obvious to see what should rise/drop.
A- to A:
IMO swanna is easily the best mon in A- and better than half the mons in A, and im making this nom mostly based on it being underranked than making metagame trends. SSSS is stupidly hard to switch into/take especcially considering how most resists are weak to Scald, not to mention when Swanna gets free turns (which is often given how easily it can force many slower mons out) it can provide invaluable support with Defog. Elektross usage has been increasing over the same month, however that isnt impossible to wear down, and lanturn is only seeing a fraction of the usage it was a while ago. Overall Swanna is amazingly splashable and very effective in pretty much any matchup. Personally I dont think Swanna is much worse than Sensu, which definitely deserves its current rank, so Swanna being in A- is definitely a mistake.
A- to B+:
Golurk hasn't gotten too much worse, but in general just doesn't feel as splashable as it once was. Partially due to the better distribution of Defog along with the onslaught of Spikes, but when building I find myself wanting a Stealth Rock'er with the ability to survive longer and get rocks up multiple times, whereas Golurk struggles to do that due to it getting 2HKOd by a large portion of the metagame, and if you are using Golurk you also want to abuse its offensive capabilities. Its Speed tier is also a big letdown as even if its in a position to get an attack off, its usually forced to take heavy damage, and its also a mediocre spinblocker vs Hitmonchan which can 2HKO with Ice Punch.
A- to B+:
Always a bit of a niche mon, and rn it really doesnt compare the rest of A-. This tier has many impressive wallbreakers which Abomasnow has to compete with, all with their own benefits and flaws, however Abomasnow really falls short on having a defensive presence. Slower breakers like Drampa and Magmortar can find opportunities to come in vs Grass-types or defensive mons, whereas faster ones have easier time coming into revenge kill threats, Abomasnow doesn't especcially have either as Ice shard doesnt reliably RK, and pretty much everything has some sort of coverage for it. Scarf sets are much better in coming in, but they still have issues with commons mons like AV Elektross/Hitmonchan and will often still need a secondary scarfer or force the team to run lots of priority to revenge kill set up mons. Overall not as splashable as the rest of A-.
B+ to B:
Palossand has definitely over taken Gourgeist in its role as a physically defensive Ghost type. Overall Palossand is just much more splashable, as in addition to providing Stealth Rock, it also counters Archeops and is not Fire-type bait, whereas Gourgeist's main benefit is checking (non Z Rock) Carracosta, and though geist provides more of a threat to physical attackers with wisp, Palo has more of an offensive presence with a solid SpA so isn't bait for Fire-types and can immediately threaten mons like Qwilfish/Gurdurr. Hard to compare to other mons in B+, but I think they are all more splashable and less outclassed in their roles.
Though we didn't vote on them last time, I want to reiterate what i said at the end of my last post (go find that for reasoning:
B- to C+:
C+ to C:
I have more opinions on the C ranks but they are so fat (especcially C) so I wouldn't be against pushing more mons in C ranks down again (26 rank C LUL). Posting here to remember for later, but in hide tags bc im not giving any reasoning and i dont want others to do it:
C+ to C: gourgeist/jumpluff/kadabra/rose/kecleon/mawile/turtinator
C to C+: rotom-f/silvally-steel
C to C-: arbok/crustle/smallgeist/metang/muk/ninjask/prinplup/toucannon/wishiwashi
C- to D: bibarrel/cacturne/
C-/D unrank: laprass/beartic (try building a team with this)/electrode/exeggutor/shiinotic/camerupt/simisage
D/C- up: noctowl/swoobat
Hello, it is me, hi, I am going to nom some stuff because I've been coming back to my roots and playing some PU and some of this VR could use some change.
to B+ or A-
I don't know why but it seems like Altaria gets no usage, yet I'd still consider one of, if not the best Defogger in the tier. Besides the likes of something like Ice Beam Mesprit and Clefairy, Altaria beats basically all the best hazard setters in the tier, namely Regirock, Ferroseed, Palossand, Carracosta (not SS of course, just defensive Stealth Rock). It has enough speed to beat things like Golem and Regirock by clicking Toxic then continuously Roosting and taking little damage from Rock Slide / Stone Edge. It's also a pretty solid Fight check, as well as a check to stuff like Lilligant and Magmortar, and a solid status absorber / spreader.
Regirock can actually be very annoying to deal with and can blanket check a ton of physical and special attackers including top tier threats such as Archeops, Sensu and Pyroar. With Toxic and Protect it can wear down common switch ins and scout against Choice-locked mons such as Passimian and Primeape. The fact that it can set rocks too against 90% of the tier makes it one of the best rockers we have and a good candidate for a rise.
A- -> A
I don't think this guy should stop rising yet, it's a massive pain in the neck for balance as it can easily take on common staples such as Ferroseed, Gastrodon and Palossand. It's also probably the best check to Oricorio-Sensu we have whilst it checks a plethora of other special attackers like Abomasnow, Swanna and Floatzel. I think that A is probably a good place for it to settle for now.
B+ -> A-
Another great blanket check for Special Attackers but Clefairy is also one of few that can take on Fire-Types like Magmortar really well. Spikes have always been prevalent in PU's metagame and taking no hazard damage due to Magic Guard is one of Clef's most underrated features, it also has great utility in Knock Off allowing it knock off items like Choice Specs so it can take on things like Drampa and Pyroar easier. Not to mention that it functions really well as a rocker since it can beat defoggers such as Swanna and Altaria 1v1 and not get pursuit trapped by Skuntank.
Here is also a couple of things I feel should drop.
A+ -> A
Maybe my most controversial nom but I often find Magmortar a lot easier to deal with than the rest of A+. Being grounded and weak to rocks is the first thing that puts me off using this as a defensive check as it's shaky against things like Lilligant but also at base 83 base speed it sits below a really good speed tier in Qwilifish and Skuntank whilst being outsped by a ton of other offensive threats too. Defensive capabilities aside, there's also the fact that more people are running Pokemon such as Altaria and Clefairy which are both able to take all of Magmortar's attacks pretty well and win 1v1. Overall, I think that due to these reasons it fits better in A than A+.
A -> A-
It can't be just me that hardly ever sees Raichu? In theory this mon should be really good as it can break down most defensive cores but in reality I feel like it's just too frail and hard to set-up. It's also weak to Sucker Punch which is probably the most common form of priority in this tier and if you can outplay, there's usually something faster such as Scarf Primeape or Lycanroc in the back ready to revenge. Palossand is also more popular these days so Psyshock variants are completely walled and just the fact that it can't reliably outspeed the Archeops benchmark leads me to believe that this should drop.
-Steel C -> B-: Kinda surprised this is as low as it is since it's possibly the best Silvally form by virtue of being able to Defog on many hazard setters. STAB Flash Cannon does a lot to things like Regirock and Clefairy and allows it to beat SR Mesprit, it can use Flamethrower to roast Ferroseed, and Thunderbolt to zap Qwilfish. Being a Steel-type that doesn't act as a momentum sink thanks to decent offensive presence and access to Parting Shot also is great in general since it allows you to check top threats like Jynx, Mesprit, Specs Drampa/Eggy etc. Stall teams, meanwhile, appreciate it for its amazing synergy with Altaria (between the two you can basically Defog vs any hazard setter) and in return it really enjoys Audino's Wishes. It can be worn down quite easily, isn't very powerful when it can't hit something super effectively, and can't run everything it wants (more of a testament to how wide its movepool is tbh), which is why I think the lower B-ranks are fine for it, but yeah, definitely one of the best Silvally forms.
B- -> B+: Highly underrated, especially now that stall is more viable. It remains the only good dedicated Wishpasser in the tier (Togedemaru can work but its Wishes are small and it lacks Regenerator so it can't pass them off as freely) and Regenerator will always be crazy. Pivoting in and out of special attackers to scout their moves relatively safely (unless it's something crazy like Drampa) is very useful for stall and balanced teams, for example in this match Audino acted as a reliable sponge to Teddeh's Specs Lanturn throughout the match, something that otherwise would have been a big issue due to my lack of a water resist. With Regen + Protect it basically removes a lot of the need to make risky predictions, which makes it a staple on stall and in general a really useful Pokemon. It also comes in on Eelektross without being too bothered by it (Knock sucks but otherwise it can't do shit to you) which is something I really appreciate personally.
B- -> B: Whether it's Sub or 3 Attacks, Gorebyss is quite dangerous as an SS sweeper and more viable than most of B- imo. Let's get this out of the way: you should be running Timid with Waterium Z or else you're probably better off running Carracosta. Timid allows you to outspeed Scarf base 80s like Mesprit, Passimian, Kabutops, and Shiftry, all of which can outspeed SS Costa after a boost, tank an LO Aqua Jet, and kill or at least heavily dent it in return. With Sub it can still dodge Sucker Punch from the likes of Skuntank, Absol etc (just like Costa), whereas a second coverage move allows it to threaten stuff like Gastrodon, Jynx, and Lanturn. Sub also gives it the ability to beat Ferroseed if you play your cards right (+2 Hydro Vortex + Ice Beam is a guaranteed 2HKO against standard Ferroseed). It needs some support, especially if you're running Sub since you need to weaken specially bulky Water resists (Qwil drops to +2 Hydro Vortex) and Jynx, but vs the right team it owns tbh. SubSmash also completely demolishes a lot of stall.
C - > B: It owns on stall which is a lot better now, it appreciates its newfound access to Block, etc. Pretty obvious nom, I think this thing is almost essential on stall so stall's viability should directly impact Pyuku's viability.
B- -> B/B+: Hazard removal got better, ergo Articuno got better. I've mostly been using it defensively since it blanket walls so many things by virtue of being bulky as all hell and having access to Heal Bell and shit, it also works as a secondary Defogger on stall since it's the most reliable Defogger vs Qwilfish you can get. It might have a lot of potential offensively but I haven't really used it that way so can't comment on it, I think it's good enough defensively to be worthy of a higher ranking though.
A -> A+: Probably a controversial nom but I do feel Pyroar really is that good. Having better hazard removal helps it of course, but it's always been one of the most difficult things to deal with imo. Its Speed tier is amazing, putting it above every relevant unboosted threat bar Archeops, Raichu-A, and Floatzel, and it has a greater amount of immediate offensive presence than those Pokemon. Specs Fire Blast + Hyper Voice has no reliable switchins bar bulky Rock-types AKA Regirock (even stuff like Lanturn gets worn down very easily by Hyper Voice) so you'll oftentimes have to rely on prediction in order to beat it, which is where Life Orb and random Z-move sets come in and take advantage of how common Specs is. This lowkey is one of the most annoying breakers to prepare for imo because of how difficult it is both to wall and outspeed so I think it could be deserving of A+
A- -> A: Just really good at what it does. Access to reliable recovery and amazing physical bulk makes it one of the most durable SR setters, good dual STAB and good SpA makes it hard to take advantage of, typing and physical bulk makes it a really good answer to Fighting-types, etc. It's just very splashable imo, one of the best SR setters and starting to become a staple in this meta.
Drops:
A -> A-/B+: Hitmonchan's always been kinda meh as a hazard remover, but with the advent of SR Palossand, one of the best defensive SR setters that happens to beat Chan one on one, and the addition of new viable Defoggers Hitmonchan finds itself becoming less and less useful as a Spinner. It still has its use as an AV user that blanket checks special attackers and provides decently strong priority in Iron Fist Mach Punch but if you need hazard removal this thing isn't that good imo, so it deserves to drop at least a little bit.
A -> A-: Nothing particularly wrong with this thing but it just feels a little out of place in A, I don't think Weezing is a top threat on the level of stuff like Lilligant and Passimian. Qwilfish oftentimes simply is the better choice for a bulky Poison-type with access both to Spikes and Tspikes (the latter of which isn't anywhere as dominant as it was during Weezing's days of glory), Weezing still has plenty of stuff going for it such as its typing + ability + bulk making it a fantastic answer to Fighting-types but I don't find it particularly splashable these days.
-Ghost C+ -> C: I... don't really know what this does? I mean, it's a decent Fighting check and all but we have plenty of those and most of them provide more utility and/or offensive presence than this thing tbh. With most mons in C+ I have a pretty clear idea of what they do and when you'd want to use them over a Pokemon in the higher ranks, but this thing... idk.
Agree with: Anty's noms (dunno about the ones in hide tags but the main ones yes), Altaria to A-, Eel to A, Clef to A-, Raichu to A-.
On Magmortar: This is the only nom I really disagree with. Fightinium Magmortar has no real switchins bar Altaria and Clefairy, it's pretty much the best wallbreaker in the tier. Its 4th moveslot is entirely customizable since it only really needs Fire Blast/Focus Blast/Thunderbolt, you can run HP Grass to deal with Gastrodon more reliably, Flame Charge to gain speed on a predicted switch, EQ for Lanturn, etc etc. It can even run Taunt to give some of its most reliable switchins trouble, since Clefairy can only hurt it with Seismic Toss and hates being denied Moonlight and Altaria oftentimes runs Flamethrower as its only attack, leaving it helpless when taunted. Magmortar can easily adapt itself to trends and maintain its status as a premier wallbreaker in the tier, and then there's AV which is not half bad either. And there's more hazard removal so rocks weakness isn't that bad sometimes!!
So the tier shift happened finally! I've taken Qwilfish and Steelvally off the VR. Poor Steelvally, it would've risen to B rank if it didn't go. Anyway, we started voting on this before the shift so consider it the final update of that pre-shift chunk of the PU metagame where the changes don't take into account things like Spiritomb or whatever.
Swanna A- to A
Golurk A- to B+
Abomasnow A- to B+
Gourgeist-Super B+ to B
Cradily B- to C+
Torterra B- to C+
Jumpluff C+ to C
Altaria B- to B+
Eelektross A- to A
Clefairy B+ to A-
Alolan Raichu A to A-
Audino B- to B
Pyukumuku C to B-
Articuno B- to B+
Palossand A- to A
Weezing A to A-
Lilligant A to A-
Mawile C+ to C
Misdreavus C+ to B-
Mudsdale C+ to B-
Gourgeist-Average C+ to C
Turtonator C+ to C
Rotom-F C to C+
Arbok C to C- (we voted on this to C- last time but I accidentally only dropped it to C and then we voted on it again without remembering that)
Gourgeist-Small C to C-
Muk C to C-
Ninjask C to C-
Prinplup C to C-
Toucannon C to C-
Wishiwashi C to C-
Bibarel C- to D
Noctowl D to C-
Lapras C- to Unranked
Beartic D to Unranked
Shiinotic D to Unranked
Camerupt D to Unranked
Simisage D to Unranked
Rampardos D to Unranked
Ok so most of these were discussed above, inside Anty's hide tag, or lower rank updates that we decided to do which shouldn't need explaining because most of the lower ranks are garbage. Feel free to hit me up or ask on Discord or wherever if you don't understand a change, but the only one I feel like explaining is Lilligant because that wasn't mentioned in the thread. Someone brought it up in the council channel and everyone just instantly agreed, it was almost unanimous. Lilligant is just a far less threatening sweeper than it was a few metagames ago. Faster scarfers are somehow even more common because Primeape's still everywhere but so is Togedemaru, Grass resists aren't hard to come by, and it's a generally awkward Pokemon to fit onto a team. This just means that, as a sweeper, it's not as scary as it used to be and that's why it dropped. Frankly I'd nom it lower if Grassium hadn't started picking up, I've seen Z-Sleep Powder do a lot more work recently than any LO or Breakneck Blitz sets.
Nominations we were 50/50 on a.k.a. discussion points- Kadabra C+ to C, Regirock A to A+, Hitmonchan A to A-, Crustle C to C-, Cacturne C- to D, Exeggutor D to Unranked, Simipour D to Unranked
Keep in mind none of the above took the tier shifts into account, so Claydol and Spiritomb could quite possibly have an impact on whether or not Hitmonchan, Crustle, or Regirock should go anywhere.
Also, apparently google survey (the tool I use to collect votes) lets you export to a pdf, so I've attached that to the bottom of the post rather than copy pasting 5000 graphs, it's slightly less fun to read but does let people know who voted what so yeah, hopefully that works out and I won't have to edit this out.
Anyway, you can begin discussing the future rank of the new drops or anything else that pertains to the post-shift metagame, but please make sure you've actually tested this stuff beforehand and aren't nominating Spiritomb to A+ because "I played a ladder game and crotomb 6-0d".
Yes I do realise this just got moved down, and it's rather unorthodox for me to nominate it back it straight away, but I feel justified in doing so. We just lost Qwilfish in the last tier shift, which was one of our best Fighting-type resists along with being able to blanket check physical attackers, and currently Pokemon like Hitmonchan, Primeape, and Passimian see very high usage in our metagame so I believe that Weezing will once again be used as a premier check to the Pokemon. Now I do realise that Spiritomb also dropped and functions as a great check to these Pokemon, but the other reason I want Weezing to rise is that with Qwilfish leaving the tier also lost one of its most common Toxic Spikes absorbers too; allowing Weezing to more freely set them each game. All this, in my opinion, warrants a rise for Weezing.
Electivire D > Unranked
I honestly find no reason to ever use this Pokemon on any of my teams, or see any use for it on other people's teams. We have far better Electric-types available to us, including Togedemaru, Eelektross, and Alolan Raichu, that can do the job of Electivire and then-some. It has only an okay Special Attack stat and yes, while it does have a decent Attack stat it has basically no moves to make use of this. I honestly find it the most disappointing Pokemon in the tier.
Hitmonchan A > A-: Disagree
Hitmonchan, while not actually being a decent form of hazard removal, solidifies its niche as a good blanket check to special attackers on bulky offensive teams with its Assault Vest set. Being able to check the likes of Drampa, Magmortar, Pyroar, and more is a fantastic asset for these types of teams, which usually struggle with powerful wallbreakers. I also believe with the newly dropped Aurorus that Hitmonchan will be even more useful in checking the Choice Specs set with a combination of good bulk and Mach Punch. I do realise that Spiritomb and Claydol dropping may affect its spinning capabilities, but I believe its main merit is a physical tank.
I'll most likely talk about the new drops once they've seen a bit of action, but I'll leave them for now.
Hoo boy, been a while since I nommed anything. I'll give you the tl;dr, and say that this mon is like asking "what if Toxapex were balanced?" and then doing that. That said...
Mareanie Unranked -> C
Mareanie @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpD / 4 Spe
Careful Nature
- Toxic Spikes
- Recover
- Haze
- Knock Off
First things first, this ain't Toxapex. Like not at all. That said, after giving it a fair go both before and after the shift, I feel that Mareanie does have a viable niche in the meta thanks to a combination of Regenerator, adequate defenses w/ eviolite, good defensive typing, reliable recovery, and access to T.Spikes at a time when one of the more viable T.Spikers/Absorbers (Qwilfish) has just departed the tier.
With Eviolite and full Sp.Def investment coupled with its typing, Mareanie is sure to find time to come in and either lay up a T-Spike or cripple something with Knock Off, and although its Phys.Def is not particularly impressive without investment, it has enough natural resistances to comfortably come in on things like Primeape, Poliwrath, and Hitmonchan as well. Point being, that without a strong, super-effective move, Mareanie will almost always eat one hit, which coupled with the ability to lay up a T-Spike may be all you need depending on the match-up.
On the special side, things are a bit more interesting. While Mareanie is certainly outclassed as a wall by the likes of Clefairy, Mareanie really shines more as a pivot than anything else. For example, you switch in on that Pyroar, scout the set, and either switch to the appropriate counter or stay in and be irritating if it isn't Specs Hyper Voice, all at a minimal loss to yourself. While I do think this mon is better as a pivot, that doesn't mean it can't hardwall anything either. Rain for example has an uphill battle against this thing, with very little to stop T-Spikes and Ludi/Gorebyss struggling to break through Recover + Regenerator + Haze in many scenarios, assuming you got that T-Spike/have Toxic. Other notable special attackers that have some trouble actually taking out Mareanie include Haunter, Floatzel (physical too, for that matter), Combusken (same), both Rotom forms if they lack T-Bolt, and Lanturn, though you'd need Toxic to really beat the likes of Rotom-S/F. Bonus points for hardwalling any and all Spiritomb sets barring Trick Band.
Regenerator MAKES this thing. Pivoting intelligently to heal Mareanie while not giving up turns to Recover is essential to maximize its effectiveness. When played to its fullest potential, Mareanie can stay healthy enough to check the things it would like to check, while also spreading general chaos with T-Spikes/Knock support. I'm sure I don't need to break down Regenerator as an ability, but bottom line, if you switched in and didn't take at least 33% then you may as well have not taken any damage at all.
It's not all great for Mareanie though, or you'd see it everywhere. For example, while Mareanie can beat Oricorio-Sensu 1v1 (unlike other T-Spikers at least, so there's that), it does not want to switch in if the Z-Move hasn't been popped as Hurricane into SSSS has a shot to kill, and will always KO with rocks support. It only gets worse from there, with things like Swanna that straight up beats you unless you drop a valuable move for Toxic, or Drampa which can OHKO you with Specs Draco/Z Draco after rocks. Although Mareanie can T-Spike on Magmortar, it's not a great answer of course because of T-Bolt comfortably dealing ~50-55 a pop. Lilligant will usually beat you thanks to Sleep Powder and Jynx...actually isn't a great answer to this thing, being that it fails to KO unless Specs and takes a clean ~50% from Knock in return, and in fact possibly even dies after rocks if it isn't Z, but with Jynx being as scary as it is I definitely think it's worth mentioning that you could potentially invite it in. Taunt can easily shut you down. Oh and of course, Skunk is still popular as ever afaik, and as predictable as the Skunk switch can be, it would still like to come in and absorb those T-Spikes.
Pros: Good typing, great ability, good supporting moves, reliable recovery, relatively independent
Cons: Passive, not quite bulky enough to wall out the strongest attackers, taunt bait, 4mss (would love to have Toxic/Haze/T.Spike/Recover/Knock etc. all at once), knock weak, sub bait (except Haunter/Sensu/Jynx ayy)
as a baseline for overall bulk
252 SpA Choice Specs Mesprit Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Mareanie: 236-282 (77.6 - 92.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
some favorable calcs
252 SpA Life Orb Haunter Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 110-133 (36.1 - 43.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Ludicolo Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie in Rain: 105-125 (34.5 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Oricorio-Sensu Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 105-124 (34.5 - 40.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Pyroar Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 121-142 (39.8 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
some less favorable ones
252+ SpA Choice Specs Drampa Hyper Voice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 177-208 (58.2 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Victreebel Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Mareanie: 165-195 (54.2 - 64.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
mareanie hurts things sometimes
0 Atk Mareanie Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Oricorio-Sensu: 78-92 (26.8 - 31.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (break subs guaranteed)
0 Atk Mareanie Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 158-186 (68.3 - 80.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mareanie Knock Off vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Jynx: 126-150 (46.4 - 55.3%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO
I have to be honest, I'm not sure which calcs are the most useful to show for this guy. Again, it's true that things such as Magmortar can nail you for 50%+ with the correct coverage option, but with Regenerator how much of that damage is going to stick, really? Not to ignore the fact that Mareanie can be forced out, but it's undeniable that Regenerator can increase the staying power of any mon, let alone one with decent defenses and reliable recovery, so just saying that it's 2HKOd by coverage X/Y/Z doesn't tell the whole story imo. Again, Mareanie does struggle against the most powerful attacks, but I'm advocating this mon on its merits as a pivot that has the potential to wall certain threats, and not just its merits as a wall alone.
I can definitely dig up some more replays if need be, but unfortunately a lot of games where Mareanie puts in work end up like this or this, so there's not much to show other than the fact that it clearly gets under some players skin. Must be pretty decent then, right? Truthfully, I think that between typing, utility, and overall staying power, coupled with the fact that you can just Haze forever if you find yourself up against a setup mon means that this could potentially go higher when things settle down. Now, I don't necessarily agree with all the lower rankings right now, but I'd use Mareanie over a lot of things in C+ or below, so I think that C is fair given the current rankings.
Kecleon in a really good pokemon right now. It has a rather large move pool, can be used with a life orb or with an assault vest to be able to pivot into special attackers. Protean and prediction is a very powerful combination, which can allow you to resist or be immune to certain types of attacks. It has access to several different priority types (Shadow sneak, Fake out, and Sucker punch) which allow it to hit before the opponent and change it's type. it can be used with life orb to hit harder. In general, I feel that Kecleon is a mon that many people ignore and decide not to use, but it's much better than people believe.
Although the meta has changed quite a bit from gen 6, I don't think that its fair that the 'fisk dropped from A- to D in viability.
Stunfisk has fairly impressive bulk that is on par with Claydol, and can usually set up stealth rocks reliably. It isn't OHKO'd by EQ from common ground types such as Sandslash or Earth Power from Palossand. It also can take at least two Scalds or Ice Beams from most special attackers as well. It's Static ability as well as access to toxic can aid in crippling threats and/or putting them on a timer. It survives an Archeops EQ and cripples it with Discharge, while Earth Power also provides solid coverage to weaken other 'mons, most notably Skuntank. Overall, Stunfisk can serve well as a bulky SR setter and support on balance teams.
Although the meta has changed quite a bit from gen 6, I don't think that its fair that the 'fisk dropped from A- to D in viability.
Stunfisk has fairly impressive bulk that is on par with Claydol, and can usually set up stealth rocks reliably. It isn't OHKO'd by EQ from common ground types such as Sandslash or Earth Power from Palossand. It also can take at least two Scalds or Ice Beams from most special attackers as well. It's Static ability as well as access to toxic can aid in crippling threats and/or putting them on a timer. It survives an Archeops EQ and cripples it with Discharge, while Earth Power also provides solid coverage to weaken other 'mons, most notably Skuntank. Overall, Stunfisk can serve well as a bulky SR setter and support on balance teams.
I'll be the first to be critical of this nomination. I can agree that Stunkfisk has had a fall from grace from ORAS to USM but there are some points here that I will just have to outright disagree with.
Premier Ladder said:
It isn't OHKO'd by EQ from common ground types such as Sandslash
Sandslash isn't a common ground type in the tier. It only finds usage on sand teams and even then, it's a pretty mediocre mon in the tier. It is also a spinner but it's outclassed by other hazard removers like Chan and even Claydol. Sure it doesn't OHKO Stunfisk.
252 Atk Sandslash Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Stunfisk: 242-288 (57.4 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
But what does Stunfisk do then? It would just toxic because Slash would just rapid spin the rocks it would set up.
My second argument.
Premier Ladder said:
It also can take at least two Scalds or Ice Beams from most special attackers as well.
Could you please at least give us some calcs from common special attackers in the tier that don't OHKO Stunfisk because it's just vague and yes, I have done some calcs and it does tank special hits so your point is not invalid but it would give your post some clarity to why you think Stunfisk should up the viability rankings.
Furthermore,
Premier Ladder said:
It survives an Archeops EQ and cripples it with Discharge
I'm sorry but no one would ever keep in an Archeops against a Stunfisk. Archeops would never kill with non-STAB EQ and Stunfisk has STAB super effective Discharge to effectively almost OHKO Archeops.
I am not intending to be malicious or anything like that, I'm just expressing my own opinion on this nomination. In my opinion, Stunfisk is just an outclassed mon in USM PU atm. I won't deny its bulk but everything it does is at least done far better by other mons in the tier.
Passimian got a lot better with the recent tier shift. With the rise of Qwilfish into the NU tier, these hyper offensive, spike-stack teams are basically nonexistent anymore, which gave Passimian a lot of problems. Qwilfish was a decent check, Oricorio-G was a pain to deal with after a wrong move choice, and offensive Mesprit was also a big menace. In general Passimian struggles against offensive teams and loves balanced builds.
The rise of Qwilfish also resulted in a small meta shift in terms of offensive fighting types. Primeape was often the preferred choice, because it abuses these kind of offensive teams and also gained an attack boost through intimidate. With that being gone now, and the additional trend of bulkier teams, led to a change in the mindset of a lot of people. Plenty players tend to enjoy the raw power of Passimian more and just pair it with another scarfer of choice.
Furthermore, most people are relying way too much on defensive Mesprit being their designated fighting resist lately, with U-Turn doing around 45%. Another fighting resist rising in popularity recently is Palossand, but U-Turn also shifts the momentum heavily on your side and thanks to the mediocre special bulk it is rather easy to abuse the passiveness Palossand's to your advantage. On the other hand, the rise of the poisonous fish made Weezing, the best fighting resist in the tier, a lot more viable and common again. I totally agree with rwby and it should rise to it's deserved A spot again.
Spiritomb, the most relevant new drop, is a tough mon for Passimian, kinda like a love-hate relationship. Spiritomb is the best trapper in the tier, which lowers the viability of mons like Oricorio-G, Haunter or Jynx. This is very good for Passimian and they also match exceptionally well. At the same time, the Crotomb set (CM+RestTalk+Dark Pulse) is really tough for it to beat. EQ is only a 3hko and it is in general a solid fighting resist. With Seasonals and Exhibition still running, the meta adapted quickly to it and the Bulk Up set got more popular. There is the Sub-Bulk Up set with Substitute/Bulk Up/Drain Punch/Knock Off but also the set with three attacks. Substitute is especially good against the Calm Mind set, because Spiritomb can't break the sub without a boost and Passimian can setup for free. Furthermore it functions well versus stall teams. Both are very good and most teams are pretty much unprepared for it.
Also the scarf set is noteworthy, while not being the fastest scarfer, it outspeeds the relevant metagame and it is really strong with 372 attack.
All of this make me believe that Passimian is worthy of the A+ rank.
I think this is ranked way to high. It faces so much competition as a spin blocker. Sableye, Spiritomb, and Palossand outclass it as a defensive spin blocker. While Silvally-Ghost, Haunter, and Oricorio-Sensu outclass it as an Offensive Spinblocker. Spiritomb dropping is also huge as it can get pursuit trapped. I dont have much to say on this but I just dont see why its ranked so high as its outclassed by so many ghosts in the tier.
I think this is ranked way to high. It faces so much competition as a spin blocker. Sableye, Spiritomb, and Palossand outclass it as a defensive spin blocker. While Silvally-Ghost, Haunter, and Oricorio-Sensu outclass it as an Offensive Spinblocker. Spiritomb dropping is also huge as it can get pursuit trapped. I dont have much to say on this but I just dont see why its ranked so high as its outclassed by so many ghosts in the tier.
Disagree: Stay in B-
Was gonna do a bigger post but since I don't quite have the time I thought I'd address this post instead. While I'm not an avid user of Misdreavus, there's no doubt that it has a place in B- at this point in this. You say that it is outclassed as a spin-blocker, yet that simply isn't true. It's ability to act as a fast Will-O-Wisp user give it almost a unique niche, if you discount the almost unheard of Gourgeist-Small, allowing it to cripple many of the would-be Rapid Spinners like Hitmonchan and Alolan Sandslash. I also totally do not understand your point about Spiritomb either, as it has no move to hit Misdreavus with, outside of Pursuit and Sucker Punch, meaning that Misdreavus can just stay in and cripple the trapper set with Will-O-Wisp. Something you also failed to address was its access to a fast Taunt, which is extremely useful in shutting down many Pokemon. It's also one of the few Ghost-types not straight-up trapped by Skuntank either, which is something that I deem as highly notable. All-in-all I don't see the need for it dropping as it solidifies enough of a niche for itself to warrant B- (I'd even argue that it got slightly better to be quite frank).
Swanna should go to A+, flying types in general are the dominating force of the current metagame, due to the lack of many options for counterplay, and the standard flynium Z Hurricane set has an easy time coming in against a lot of defensive and offensive pokemon alike due to its ground and fighting resist to then proceed to do damage or defog on forced switches. it is one of the mons that force teams to be fast since checking it is limited to Eelektross/Lanturn and special walls that only fit on defensive teams and in my opinion it's at least on the same level as carracosta and jynx.
the removal of spikes is a bit less useful/necessary since qwilfish left but ferroseed is stil a big part of the metagame and "getting past" ghost-types is still a pretty big advantage over rapid spin options (i would nom hitmonchan to drop but a- is cluttered)
Eelektross is another pokemon that could deserve A+ rank as well right now. it's incredibly effective against balance/bulky offense if they don't run Drampa/Exeggutor/idk due to Knock Off and its 3 moves coverage and the fact that it checks all the birds (that are in S and A+) makes it incredibly easy to fit onto teams (not quite Mesprit level since it lacks the versatility but few bulky offensive team don't improve by adding it).
Musharna could drop to B+, not much use in the current metagame sadly since it probably has potential but z-moves power creep makes it less effective as a pivot and it faces competition from Mesprit which at least outspeeds defensive threats.
Sandslash Alola is surprisingly decent and could be bumped up one rank. it is somewhat of a flying resist (always good) and the weird typing makes it effective against all S rank mons (shuca makes it a very good archeops check). it's a very effective spinner and works outside of hail just fine.
comments
misdreavus isn't great since it's not able to check passimian anymore but it's still decent against a number of top threats. b- isn't that high so it's the right placement imo
kecleon is a decent anti meta pick with AV since it does well against birds/pyroar and most special attackers. qwilfish leaving made it better for sure so a bump is deserved.
Disagree: Stay in B-
Was gonna do a bigger post but since I don't quite have the time I thought I'd address this post instead. While I'm not an avid user of Misdreavus, there's no doubt that it has a place in B- at this point in this. You say that it is outclassed as a spin-blocker, yet that simply isn't true. It's ability to act as a fast Will-O-Wisp user give it almost a unique niche, if you discount the almost unheard of Gourgeist-Small, allowing it to cripple many of the would-be Rapid Spinners like Hitmonchan and Alolan Sandslash. I also totally do not understand your point about Spiritomb either, as it has no move to hit Misdreavus with, outside of Pursuit and Sucker Punch, meaning that Misdreavus can just stay in and cripple the trapper set with Will-O-Wisp. Something you also failed to address was its access to a fast Taunt, which is extremely useful in shutting down many Pokemon. It's also one of the few Ghost-types not straight-up trapped by Skuntank either, which is something that I deem as highly notable. All-in-all I don't see the need for it dropping as it solidifies enough of a niche for itself to warrant B- (I'd even argue that it got slightly better to be quite frank).
Fair points. One thing that I wanna mention is that its lack of reliable recovery hinders it from coming in on a alot of spinners. One example being Ice punch from Hitmonchan on the obvious Switch to Missy (does 29 - 34.2% if ur max HP and almost always 3 hit kos after rocks) . Pain split is a fine option but I wouldn't consider it as reliable as something like Sableye's Recover and Palossand's shore up. I do agree that not being straight up trapped by Skuntank is nice though. I haven't really changed my opinion but you did point out some flaws in my post, so that opened my eyes a bit. I'm not an avid user of Missy myself either.
For the record, I agree with the above noms that swanna, passimian, and eelektross are all be A+ mons. Don't especially like the imbalance this would lead to between A+ and A, even with my below nomination, but what're you gonna do. Magmortar A+ to A - I know Fagtron thought the key was to raise Pyroar, but I'd rather drop this instead. Magmortar is arguably worse than Pyroar atm, still a solid mon but has people considering a lot of more niche options like Taunt and Specs because it really needs to grow out of the basic AV set that just isn't that exceptional anymore. On paper its one of the most threatening mons in the tier and it absolutely has an effect on teambuilding, but it's much harder to justify using, especially given that Lilligant and Jynx are noticeably less common than they used to be. This thing is scary, but not quite the "impossible to keep in check 100% of the time unless wrong coverage move or you have Clefairy" impossible that it was a while back. Meanwhile, Pyroar's Speed matters a lot more than it used to. Really though it just feels like the things Magmortar keeps in check often can't justify using it anymore, it's easier to handle Abomasnow and Lilligant with something else. This shouldn't be A+ and above all other Fires if it isn't the premier Fire, plain and simple.
Large dog is really good right now. CB Scrappy Return is almost as spammable as it was in ORAS, breaking through balance pokemon like Gastrodon, Weezing, and Altaria with ease. In addition, it only needs a small-ish amount of chip to break dedicated walls like Palossand and Gourgeist. The increase in popularity of Palossand as a wall is actually helpful to it, as well as the fact that new mon Spiritomb is complete bait for it. On balance teams, there is also a trend of passive status users like Altaria, Gastro, and Clef that are just easy baits for Facade. Stout has a number of things over Kanga right now, with its relative resilience to passive damage, a spammable secondary move in Superpower, and just sheer strength (even if you try to slap a CB on Kanga it won't work as well due to not being able to hit the right level of power without taking huge recoil damage). The main problem with Stoutland is the speed tier of course- it's a very competitive speed tier that competes with pokemon like Mesprit and Passimian and places it below Skunk and Pinsir and Mag, so it can be a little shaky against faster teams. In addition, Regirock and Ferroseed are still quite common and are unbothered by Return so can reduce Stoutland to a guessing game. That being said, it's in a good place now and deserves a raise.
s/o HJAD for absolutely demolishing me in seasonal with it and making me see the light
Carracosta from A+ to A
I feel like Carracosta isn't anymore a top tier threat like it used to be. In the current metagame Carracosta finds fewer space to set up a Shell Smash, so to be able to set up it can't be ran as a standalone sweeper but needs support, which most teams can't afford to have without also having weaknesses that can be exploited. Even when it does manage to set up, it doesn't automatically win or is as menacing as it once was because the metagame shifted to favour bulkier builds with a solid backbone. These include Pokémon such as Gastrodon and Ferroseed, and Carracosta can only get through them if it runs Z Superpower, but then it can't run Waterfall, which makes it easier to check for Pokémon like bulky Ground-types and miscellaneous ones such as Gurdurr. You also lose the option of White Herb, or Life Orb to boost Aqua Jet, making it even more vulnerable to Choice Scarf users than what it already is because of its terrible speed.
Type:Null from A- to B+
Type:Null might be amazing in NU, but it surely isn't amazing in PU at the moment. It doesn't have much going for it , outside the tier losing Qwilfish, a relief for Type:Null because less Spikes pressure, but there's still Ferroseed, which can actually be quite a nuisance not only because of Spikes but also because of Leech Seed. First of all Fighting-types are extremely popular at the moment, and two of those being Gurdurr and Passimian also carry Knock Off, so they make dealing with Type:Null definitely easier. Even with Eviolite not knocked off, it can still be abused by special wallbreakers such as Aurorus and Magmortar, and special attackers that carry set up moves such as Mesprit and Oricorio, especially now that Type:Null favours other moves like Iron Defense over Sleep Talk. Oricorio actually completely walls it because of mono Normal-type coverage and can also be tricky to Pursuit because Z Hurricane can get rid of both Skuntank and Spiritomb if they don't click Sucker Punch, and Skuntank has to also deal with Substitute. Spiritomb itself along with other Ghost-types such as Palossand can also wall it and are hard to Pursuit trap, the first because of its double typing, the second because it has high physical bulk and most of the times runs Colbur Berry.
Hi guys I'm back again with another bad Pokemon that I think deserves to be ranked.
Basculin to D/C-
Basculin is a weird Pokemon in the current meta as it's sandwiched in-between both Kingler and Floatzel in terms of more offensive Water-types (I'm discounting Kabutops here solely because it often plays a slightly different role) and is often forgotten because it seems like a lacklustre pick, however I believe that Basculin carves a small niche thanks to it having a good Speed tier, outspeeding several common metagame threats like Jynx and Oricorio-G, access to Aqua Jet, and its great ability Adaptability. Over the course of the last two weeks I've been messing around with it both on the ladder and in test games, and it has rather surprised me. Originally it was on a team to try and have a good matchup versus my Smogon Exhibition week 2 opponent, but after trying it out several times I've come to the conclusion that it deserves a spot on the VR. Unlike Floatzel it has a way stronger STAB and priority move, along with being able to lure Water-type checks more effectively and then cripple them with Toxic. It also has a niche over Kingler due to the better Speed tier and the aforementioned priority, though it is weaker and doesn't have access to notable boosting moves. I'm not saying it's anything special or an amazing Pokemon, but it certainly has a niche.
In terms of sets, while I do believe that the Choice Band set is somewhat passable, I think the better set is its Z move;
Basculin-Blue-Striped @ Waterium Z
Ability: Adaptability
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Waterfall
- Aqua Jet
- Superpower
- Toxic
This is currently the best set as it can effectively lure Water-type checks such as Gastrodon, Lanturn, Lurantis, etc. with Toxic, as they'll most likely expect it to either be Choice-Locked or otherwise (though I guess if I'm trying to hype this set, it'll no longer have the same lure effect). Z Waterfall hits for the same as Z Liquidation and I value the 20% chance to flinch over the Defense drop. Superpower is purely to hit both Ferroseed and Jynx in one slot, though it doesn't do that much against the former due to the lack of a choice item.
A+ -> A: I was a big fan of this mon but I think the meta's been unkind to it. Spiritomb's a new bulky Ghost that becomes problematic for Primeape, especially since Pursuit does a lot if Primeape got a kill with CC, and other Fighting checks like Palossand and Weezing which do particularly well vs it are also becoming more common partially due to Qwilfish being gone, a way shakier Primeape check thanks to Defiant EQ. Moreover, Passimian's been gaining a lot more traction and frankly is simply better right now thanks to a better Attack stat and access to Knock Off, making it difficult to account for defensively while still keeping a solid matchup vs offense with Scarf. Zeon summed up pretty well why Passimian's been getting better and I think it's only fair if these two swapped places.
B+ -> B-: Frankly, I just don't really know when I would want to use this. The name of the game is balance and bulky offense atm and as a SR setter one often prefers something with more durability like defensive Mesprit, Clefairy, or Palossand, which happens to possess the same typing as Golurk. On offensive teams, meanwhile, you might prefer a hazard lead like Aurorus, Lycanroc or Crustle. CB and RP sets have always been niche at best and didn't suddenly get good afaik. The rest of B+ is significantly more threatening than Golurk and even most of B outclasses it, so a significant drop is warranted imo.
A- -> A: Very annoying to deal with especially now that 0 Spe is common so Ferro can't even beat it, as an SR setter it's pretty reliable because of reliable recovery + takes no hazards damage, meanwhile defensive CM has been gaining traction and can shred teams apart if they don't come prepared because you can't deal with it thru Toxic and there aren't many Pokemon that can break it once it has a CM up. It's also a complete stop to Spiritomb, CM uses it as setup fodder, so that's cool. One of the most dominant defensive threats in the meta and this should be reflected in the VR.
A -> A+: I will keep making this nom until it happens!! Argument's the same as last time, Megazard already made the case why this thing's on the same level as Mag, I just so happen to think Mag's an A+ mon :} speaking of which:
Other people's noms:
down: Hard disagree. Why do y'all keep thinking this is an ok nom to make? "impossible to keep in check 100% of the time unless wrong coverage move or you have Clefairy" actually describes it very well atm, now that Qwilfish is gone Tbolt isn't necessary atm and Magmortar is basically walking around with two free moveslots no matter what set you run (btw Z-move > Specs >>> AV). I think Taunt is the best option on Z-move sets since you keep standard Altaria and non-Seismic Toss Clefairy from doing anything against you, and then you can run: HP Grass if you want to lure Gastrodon, HP Ice to kill Altaria (especially nice on non-Taunt sets), Will-o-Wisp to lure and cripple Hitmonchan and trapper Tomb, you can still run Tbolt to OHKO Swanna and Archeops etc, meanwhile Specs can't run Taunt and Wisp very successfully but it can 2HKO any Clefairy with Fire Blast. Magmortar doesn't have a single true counter, it has some stuff that can come in once or twice like Eel but they get chipped very easily. Of course, this wouldn't be too problematic if it had a sucky speed tier, but base 83 is actually above average, making it good in most matchups. Pyroar does give it fierce competition but for one, Pyroar is somewhat easier to build for since its coverage will always be STABs + a weak HP Grass unless it's a Grassium or Sunny Day set, making it less problematic for fat teams, and for two, Pyroar's a subrank too low anyway. I will concede that it's somewhat tough to fit on a team, but so is Jynx, for example. I think if Mag has a problem, it's not that it's falling behind but that a lot of people may not be caught up to what's good on it yet. Done well, a Magmortar's ability to break bulky teams is unparalleled, and while it has its flaws it absolutely has a huge impact on teambuilding and is absolutely deserving of A+.
up: Agree. Shouldn't come as a surprise considering my Primeape nom, but I just wanted to mention one thing Zeon didn't touch upon real quick, which is its bulk. One major advantage Scarf Passimian has over Primeape is a really crisp 100/90 physical bulk, something that's easy to overlook but relevant in more than one way. I already touched upon Spiritomb's ability to chunk Primeape heavily, but Passimian can click CC way more fearlessly since Pursuit doesn't harm it too much even at -1.
252+ Atk Black Glasses Spiritomb Crunch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Passimian: 111-132 (32.5 - 38.7%) -- 98.9% chance to 3HKO
252+ Atk Black Glasses Spiritomb Crunch vs. -1 0 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 154-182 (56.8 - 67.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Moreover, the bulk is huge when you want to check Carracosta since you can basically just switch into Smash Costa without fearing much as long as you're somewhat healthy, you take 62% max from +2 LO Adamant Aqua Jet whereas Primeape just drops to that.
up: Agree and it could go B+ imo. I really like this mon tbh, the Ice typing is not as bad for it defensively as one might think since it actually helps in chewing Ice Beam from Jynx and Blizzard from Aurorus, meanwhile it still checks a lot of threats thanks to great defense and Steel typing. SD Rapid Spin is really good right now because it matches up very well vs Mesprit, the most common SR setter, and Ice is amazing offensively and especially with Icium it's really difficult to check if you give it a free turn (Adamant Subzero Slammer OHKOs Weezing at +2), plus it threatens every common Ghost so spinblocking can be an act of suicide. Oh also this thing goes ham if your opponent carries an Aurorus or an Abomasnow which is funny.
Other shit I agree with: Weezing to A, Eel/Swanna to A+, Costa to A, Stoutland to B+, Mushy to B+ (rip), Basculin ranked, Evire unranked because bad, other noms are probably fine but I'm ambivalent on/don't know enough about the mon to judge.
everyone's doing it rn so i'll just do a quick post touching on three of the noms.
A to A+: Agree
Everything that needed to be said about this has been said, I feel. (especially since GenZeon sniped me with the Passimian nom.) One of the tier's best breakers and Pokemon atm, has the power, coverage, and bulk to better deal with stuff that Primeape finds itself struggling with, and is really good at punishing builds with only defensive Mesprit as a Fighting-check.
A+ to A: Disagree
While stuff like Altaria and Clefairy has been rising in usage, that isn't really a super big problem for Magmortar. From Hidden Power Ice to Taunt to Choice Specs to even different Z-Moves, Magmortar's been seeing some variation as of late to get around one or another of its checks, and I think that it shouldn't drop simply because of how solid of a breaker it is coupled with how it relatively unpredictable it can be.
A to A+: Agree
This thing is a chore for balance / bulkier teams to deal with because of Knock Off + its solid coverage and its access to a strong, slow Volt Switch to get in scary breakers that can take advantage of their switch-ins being knocked off or weakened, (which is particularly annoying for teams since it has the coverage to deal with every Electric-immunity) and it still works as a good offensive check to stuff like Archeops and Oricorio-G.
Agreeing with Galbia: Musharna A- ->B+/B
In the words of HJAD
Yeah, this thing just doesn't deserve to be ranked so high in this meta, especially now that Passimian got buffed, Spiritomb exists, etc. Not near comparable to things like Gastro, Lilligant, Kang and other A- mons. I would even go so far as to nom it lower but baby steps
I know some of these unrankings will make people mad, please direct all hate mail to Anty.
Carracosta A+ to A
Primeape A+ to A
Regirock A to A+
Passimian A to A+
Swanna A to A+
Eelektross A to A+
Pyroar A to A+
Clefairy A- to A
Weezing A- to A
Musharna A- to B+
Stoutland B to B+
Sandslash-Alola B- to B
Kadabra C+ to C
Kecleon C+ to B-
Cacturne C- to D
Exeggutor D to Unranked
Simipour D to Unranked
Electivire D to Unranked
Eevee D to Unranked
Lots of minor shifts throughout the A rank mostly has to do with the VR catching up on current meta trends. Regirock, Passimian, Swanna, and Eelektross have all seen a ton of usage in tours and are in general much more threatening offensively or defensively than the previous titans like Carracosta and Primeape. Stoutland, Alolan Sandslash and Kecleon were pretty underrated and needed a bump, while Kadabra, Cacturne and Musharna still had inflated rankings from previous metas or last gen. As for the stuff that we unranked, there's pretty much no reason to use Simipour or Electivire on any serious team, they don't perform completely awfully but can't find any serious niche either. Exeggutor simply isn't worth using on or off Sun teams anymore, and Eevee wasn't very good before we got a splashable Dark/Ghost type and three other drops that give it varying degrees of annoyance.
Future discussion points: We went 50/50 on a lot of things this time around: Mareanie could really use more input and maybe use on a serious team with some more replays, Stunfisk rising isn't out of the question but the nomination had a lot of flaws, whether Alolan Sandslash should go even higher to B+ was up for debate so I opted for the smaller rise for now, Basculin's niche is still just really questionable, nobody seemed to care very much about whether Golurk fell or not, and Type Null didn't drop because... honestly not sure haven't seen anyone argue against it but then we ended up split so maybe there's more to this. We also didn't vote on Aurorus rising but it's just continued to get more and more hype so that's certainly a reasonable topic to bring up. Once again I've attached a pdf of the votes, downloadable only because that's easy so just deal with it.
