Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

[blondesasukeuchiha]

Quick update about UU:
I made viability rankings based on Pokemon I have personally seen used in 1v1 UU or Pokemon that were used in last year's 1v1PL

Hide

S

Sableye-Mega

Donphan


A+

Mew

Greninja


A

Golem

Genesect

Mawile-Mega

A-

Slowbro-Mega

Pinsir-Mega

Primarina

Sawk


B+

Aggron-Mega

Altaria-Mega

Blaziken

Gardevoir-Mega

Ferrothorn

Tapu Fini

Togekiss

Garchomp


B

Crustle

Heatran

Jumpluff

Heracross-Mega

Kartana

Meloetta

Necrozma

Tyranitar-Mega


B-

Blastoise-Mega

Buzzwole

Chansey

Celesteela

Diancie-Mega

Durant

Gengar-Mega

Hoopa-Unbound

Kommo-o

Swampert-Mega

Deoxys-S

C+

Whimsicott

Infernape

Blissey

I know its not anywhere near perfect and that is why I'd like people to MESSAGE ME, on either smogon or discord, with suggestions for changing or adding Pokemon (please don't post suggestions on the forums, I don't want to fill it with random viability rankings posts).
All input is wonderful, when suggesting a move or addition please give a short description of why as it allows me to assess if the Pokemon is worth moving.
Thanks!

Also if anyone has teams for 1v1 UU that they would like to contribute to the sample teams thread you can message me those as well.

 

[adfjo]

Shouldn't this go in resources? Also for sample teams, I guess teams you/other players have made would be a good start.

 

[Joker 1v1]

I got a bigger screen than my mobile, so it's time to post my thoughts on ZMoves......

Okay, I'll start off with my Z-Moves stance, which is TO NOT BAN Z-MOVES...


Z-Moves: My opinions

I think we are at a crucial juncture in this metagame where Z-Moves have shown their potential, their worth, their unhealthiness, their overbearing nature, their pros and cons for the 1v1 metagame.

WHY SHOULD Z MOVES BE ALLOWED IN 1v1 :

• Diversity:

Let's face it; you wouldn't have seen half the Pokemon from the Viability Rankings if not for Z-Moves. How else would you use Pokemon like Tapu Koko, Landorus-Therian, Tapu Lele, Magnezone, Donphan, Primarina, Buzzwole, Crustle, Kommo-o, amongst others, to its present threatening presence without Z-Moves? The answer: no other way. Z-Moves has brought that level of diversity to the table, which elevates the offensive presence of already good Pokemon, and makes other previously unviable Pokemon like Salazzle, Skarmory to become viable.

Now, you might be thinking "How could this possibly be healthy for 1v1 as a metagame?". The simple answer is that viable Pokemon are always going to be viable, and less viable or unviable ones are going to stay less viable or unviable regardless of Z-Move presence, with some notable exceptions being Tapu Koko and Mimikyu. What Z Moves did to the meta was to increase the power level of the meta (and balance it, but that's for another point altogether).

• Playstyle balance:

Z Moves provide options for all styles of play ranging from HyperOffense (Examples of Donphan, Primarina) to Setup Offense(Zygarde,Snorlax, Buzzwole) to Stall(Examples of Blissey, Umbreon, Quagsire) and other conceivable style of play. A no Z-move metagame was a living nightmare for a hyper-offense person;in gen 6 (the closest available reference to a developed no Z 1v1 metagame), predominant fast offense in the first part of the metagame followed by predominant bulky offense in the latter part became the only effective gameplay. I am not criticizing how things panned out in gen 6; but I do feel that various playstyles have been made possible by the inclusion (and the counters thereof) of Z Moves, and this is one of the main reasons I feel that Z Moves should not be banned.



Again, a question might arise as to this point's relevance. As for that, a healthy and a competitive metagame is one in which a player does not win tournaments or ladder using only a certain playstyle, ie, a player is as likely to win in a competitve arena using (say) stall as he is using (again, say)hyper offense. And Z Moves bring that into play, and the game seems to be at a balance bar a few Pokemon which seem to shift the balance.

• Introduction of skill :

Generation 7 brought Z Moves into the picture, and in the very early phases of gen71v1, it seemed as though Z Moves are going to shift the meta away from the skill-based metagame it was in generation. But as time progressed, it became increasingly clear that Z-Moves weren't all about the mindless 1 hit wonder it was touted and assumed to be, but far more than that. It gave rise to a meta which becomes skill-based, because "skill", as is popularly defined, means that one relies more on skill and brains that mere "sheer power",and Z Moves did exactly that by boosting every aspect of that process by providing a tool to assist in all aspects.


This might again beg the question as to how this exactly makes it allowable to the meta. And, as to that, (in my opinion) anything which allows skill-based play should be allowed in meta. I feel this because there is no point brooding over a meta being based off no skill if the skill-inducing and skill-based elements are removed.

I might not get the chance to post something this big, so i'll cram my opinions into one post...

THOUGHTS ON TAPU KOKO :

View attachment 108692

Looks overly familiar? If not, you have not seen the name "gen71v1" in your life. Such is its omniscient presence in the meta that despite being a newcomer, it has always been very much in usage

Hide

View attachment 108693 <-- December 2016
View attachment 108694 <-- January 2017
View attachment 108695 <-- February 2017
View attachment 108696 <-- March 2017
View attachment 108697 <-- April 2017
View attachment 108699 <-- May 2017
View attachment 108700 <-- June 2017
View attachment 108701 <-- July 2017
View attachment 108702 <-- August 2017
View attachment 108703 <-- September 2017
View attachment 108705 <-- October 2017
View attachment 108706 <-- November 2017
View attachment 108707 <-- December 2017
View attachment 108708 <-- January 2018
View attachment 108712 <-- February 2018

I wouldn't even have to pull up these stats for any 1v1 to know how centralising Koko is to teambuilding. Now, before USUM, a basic set was used to demolish most of the used Pokemon

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (or) 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (or) Timid Nature
- Wild Charge / Thunder
- Substitute
- Charge
- Taunt

Soon, this set found itself to be countered(not so) easily, with the most prominent ones being Mega Charizard X, bulky Mega Metagross, and Snorlax. And so, an upgraded version of this set without the Substitute part was made, and that soon took(and takes) centrestage in the current meta:

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost

Now, this set makes countering Tapu Koko very difficult, and its counters are, without exception, Ground-types and bulky Grass-types, both of which wins only by virtue of its typing. I believe this all of these factors (consistently centralising high usage, ability to smash most of meta, and having limited counters) pushes Koko to the "broken" and "banworthy" category. So, my stand is BAN TAPU KOKO.




P.S. : Please don't start dissecting my post to point out mistakes in logic; I'm pretty sure I've worded many parts poorly, and I'll happily discuss them over PMs.

attidude wouldnt stop spam messaging me to read this. so um i was on the koko ban train but i just made a team with koko and I like it so idk. i trust deg to ban stuff. ig

 

[ZeroPlasmaFist]

I got a bigger screen than my mobile, so it's time to post my thoughts on ZMoves......

Okay, I'll start off with my Z-Moves stance, which is TO NOT BAN Z-MOVES...


Z-Moves: My opinions

I think we are at a crucial juncture in this metagame where Z-Moves have shown their potential, their worth, their unhealthiness, their overbearing nature, their pros and cons for the 1v1 metagame.

WHY SHOULD Z MOVES BE ALLOWED IN 1v1 :

• Diversity:

Let's face it; you wouldn't have seen half the Pokemon from the Viability Rankings if not for Z-Moves. How else would you use Pokemon like Tapu Koko, Landorus-Therian, Tapu Lele, Magnezone, Donphan, Primarina, Buzzwole, Crustle, Kommo-o, amongst others, to its present threatening presence without Z-Moves? The answer: no other way. Z-Moves has brought that level of diversity to the table, which elevates the offensive presence of already good Pokemon, and makes other previously unviable Pokemon like Salazzle, Skarmory to become viable.

Now, you might be thinking "How could this possibly be healthy for 1v1 as a metagame?". The simple answer is that viable Pokemon are always going to be viable, and less viable or unviable ones are going to stay less viable or unviable regardless of Z-Move presence, with some notable exceptions being Tapu Koko and Mimikyu. What Z Moves did to the meta was to increase the power level of the meta (and balance it, but that's for another point altogether).

• Playstyle balance:

Z Moves provide options for all styles of play ranging from HyperOffense (Examples of Donphan, Primarina) to Setup Offense(Zygarde,Snorlax, Buzzwole) to Stall(Examples of Blissey, Umbreon, Quagsire) and other conceivable style of play. A no Z-move metagame was a living nightmare for a hyper-offense person;in gen 6 (the closest available reference to a developed no Z 1v1 metagame), predominant fast offense in the first part of the metagame followed by predominant bulky offense in the latter part became the only effective gameplay. I am not criticizing how things panned out in gen 6; but I do feel that various playstyles have been made possible by the inclusion (and the counters thereof) of Z Moves, and this is one of the main reasons I feel that Z Moves should not be banned.



Again, a question might arise as to this point's relevance. As for that, a healthy and a competitive metagame is one in which a player does not win tournaments or ladder using only a certain playstyle, ie, a player is as likely to win in a competitve arena using (say) stall as he is using (again, say)hyper offense. And Z Moves bring that into play, and the game seems to be at a balance bar a few Pokemon which seem to shift the balance.

• Introduction of skill :

Generation 7 brought Z Moves into the picture, and in the very early phases of gen71v1, it seemed as though Z Moves are going to shift the meta away from the skill-based metagame it was in generation. But as time progressed, it became increasingly clear that Z-Moves weren't all about the mindless 1 hit wonder it was touted and assumed to be, but far more than that. It gave rise to a meta which becomes skill-based, because "skill", as is popularly defined, means that one relies more on skill and brains that mere "sheer power",and Z Moves did exactly that by boosting every aspect of that process by providing a tool to assist in all aspects.


This might again beg the question as to how this exactly makes it allowable to the meta. And, as to that, (in my opinion) anything which allows skill-based play should be allowed in meta. I feel this because there is no point brooding over a meta being based off no skill if the skill-inducing and skill-based elements are removed.

I might not get the chance to post something this big, so i'll cram my opinions into one post...

THOUGHTS ON TAPU KOKO :

View attachment 108692

Looks overly familiar? If not, you have not seen the name "gen71v1" in your life. Such is its omniscient presence in the meta that despite being a newcomer, it has always been very much in usage

Hide

View attachment 108693 <-- December 2016
View attachment 108694 <-- January 2017
View attachment 108695 <-- February 2017
View attachment 108696 <-- March 2017
View attachment 108697 <-- April 2017
View attachment 108699 <-- May 2017
View attachment 108700 <-- June 2017
View attachment 108701 <-- July 2017
View attachment 108702 <-- August 2017
View attachment 108703 <-- September 2017
View attachment 108705 <-- October 2017
View attachment 108706 <-- November 2017
View attachment 108707 <-- December 2017
View attachment 108708 <-- January 2018
View attachment 108712 <-- February 2018

I wouldn't even have to pull up these stats for any 1v1 to know how centralising Koko is to teambuilding. Now, before USUM, a basic set was used to demolish most of the used Pokemon

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (or) 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (or) Timid Nature
- Wild Charge / Thunder
- Substitute
- Charge
- Taunt

Soon, this set found itself to be countered(not so) easily, with the most prominent ones being Mega Charizard X, bulky Mega Metagross, and Snorlax. And so, an upgraded version of this set without the Substitute part was made, and that soon took(and takes) centrestage in the current meta:

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost

Now, this set makes countering Tapu Koko very difficult, and its counters are, without exception, Ground-types and bulky Grass-types, both of which wins only by virtue of its typing. I believe this all of these factors (consistently centralising high usage, ability to smash most of meta, and having limited counters) pushes Koko to the "broken" and "banworthy" category. So, my stand is BAN TAPU KOKO.




P.S. : Please don't start dissecting my post to point out mistakes in logic; I'm pretty sure I've worded many parts poorly, and I'll happily discuss them over PMs.

i agree with attidude on this. tapu koko should be banned. it just kills a lot of pokemon way to quickly, and sometimes runs bulk evs, just to annoy charizard x. it ohkos all the offensive pokemon on the viability, and breaks through a lot of defensive ones as well with charge, then GIGAVOLT HAVOC. i don't think twinkle tackle is bad either, apart from not getting charge.i don't think it deserves a quickban, but a suspect would definitely be in order. i just want it to be gone to mess with everyone's teambuilding and peak.

sidenote: is marsh actually rebanned?, cuz that's what my computer says

 

[Kentari]

With what has been said above regarding Z-moves I would like to talk about a Z-move abuser and not the mechanic itself. You've guessed, Tapu Koko. This Pokemon is seriously busted with just one Z-move. Here, we're not talking about an unpredictable Pokemon that can run any Z-move, we're talking about a specific Z-stones and a specific abuser. Most arguments around Z-moves are based around the fact that they are unpredictable but we're seeing some users that run the same Z-stone over and over again and are borderline broken. I'd like to bring attention to Tapu Koko.

View attachment 107698
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost

Tapu Koko got many other moves but that's the moveset that been pushing it over the edge at this moment. This set is near perfect and has reduced Tapu Koko checks to a minimal number. You can't run physical Ground-type coverage or any other bulky physical attackers and call it a check. Iron Defense + Charge is a deadly combo and with good defensive EVs it can live most physical attackers that used to OHKO it after surviving a Z-move. Tapu Koko doesn't even need to invest in attack as Electric Terrain, Charged Z-Wild Charge can either OHKO or deal serious damage to the opponent.

Looking at the current philosophy we have in place;

1) Tapu Koko is the 3rd most used Pokemon on the 1v1 ladder just behind both Mega Gyarados and Mega Charizard X, two tier titans, on the 1630s weighted usage. It also gets so much usage in tournaments like seen in the previous 1v1PL, 1v1LT and recently 1v1 SSNL mean that Tapu Koko is arguably one of the most influential and used Pokemon in the 1v1 metagame. It is also splashable on any team easily. It is a low risk Pokemon as it can only lose most of the time to a minimal Pokemon.

2) As said before, Tapu Koko has such little counters that the team that can easily fix the issue. Tapu Koko is mostly countered by Ground-type Pokemon, Mega Venusaur, and Dragonite to an extent. Some Pokemon such as Mega Metagross used to be able to beat it but thanks to the recent innovation of Iron Defense it no longer can. Tapu Koko also counters a good amount of the metagame and makes a lot of Pokemon worse, especially Flying- and Water-type Pokemon which are restricted due to the omnipresence of Tapu Koko in the tier. Banning Tapu Koko will free the way to many Pokemon in the 1v1 metagame.

Tapu Koko can, in some teams, run Fairium-Z to lure in Dragon-type Pokemon such as Zygarde-C and Garchomp. While this set might not be optimal nor deserve much attention while discussing Tapu Koko, it should still be taken into account.

Now there's some people that might still be stuck with the mindset of "Oh if we banning Koko we're allowing Mega Dos and Zard X to roam free in the tier", this might be false. If we ever decide on banning Tapu Koko, a lot of other Pokemon will see more usage which will most likely be able to counter them, we're also allowing more Electric-type Pokemon to be used more and not be completely outclassed by Koko, such as Ampharos.

Therefore, I'm with banning Tapu Koko from 1v1.
Short post, but made my point across minimal words, if people want to reply I'll probably respond with either a bigger paragraph or reply to each point by itself so please, be my guest and discuss Tapu Koko.

I agree that Tapu Koko should be considered for a ban. I won’t include calcs because they insult your intelligence. No one reads them anyway.


1. It can boost its Attack, Defense, Special Attack, and Special Defense by 2 stages. I don’t think any other Pokémon can viably do this.

2. Charge is the best boosting move if you only use Electric attacks.

3. It can be physical or special and there is no real way of knowing which it is.

4. Its ability and high base speed allow it to avoid investing in its attacking stats and speed, letting it use evs to make up for its poor bulk.

5. Its main set (with variations) of Charge, Wild Charge and Thunder, and 2 utility moves chosen from Taunt, Substitute, Iron Defense, and Roost beats an incredible amount of Pokémon. Similar to Marshadow, it is hard countered by a few Pokémon, while the rest of the Viability Rankings either lose or have an uncertain matchup.

6. Even its counters, Lando-T, Golem, Dragonite, Mega-Venusaur, etc can be beaten with specific counter-sets. I’m not saying it’s worth running anti-Golem Tapu Koko, but it brings to mind Kyu-B, which was so strong and versatile that it could almost always make a set to counter its counters. Pokémon that are capable of beating their hardest counters are usually OP.

7. Just because a Pokémon has counters doesn’t mean it’s not OP. Everything has counters. Lunala loses to Alolan-Muk. That doesn’t mean it’s not too strong for regular 1v1.

Some other thoughts that aren’t an argument

A. When Choice Scarf Meloetta and Laser Focus Metagross become good ladder options, it’s probably a bad sign. These sets aren’t good, they just beat Tapu Koko.

B. Tapu Koko is incredibly boring to use and play against. I know exactly what it’s going to do every game.

C. DEG, people started using Iron Defense as soon as USUM came out. We would’ve used Iron Defense a long time ago if it was available.

D. I said no calcs, but I’ll just throw this one out there for fun.

Z-Zap Cannon - 252+ SpA Magnezone Gigavolt Havoc (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew: 340-402 (99.7 - 117.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Z-Thunder - 252 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mew in Electric Terrain: 366-432 (107.3 - 126.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

If we’re still doing suspects then Tapu Koko should be suspected. If we’re not, the 1v1 council should vote on it.

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

Second 1v1 UU post in only a few messages but hey its been 9 days and also there are new usage stats so new mons!
In case you don't know the changes I'll just copy paste from DEG
- Mawile-Mega, Sableye-Mega, Dragonite, Victini, Donphan, Garchomp
+ Naganadel
These changes matter more than it would seem as the 2 best Pokemon have been removed (Sableye-Mega and Donphan) and have been replaced with Naganadel which one shots everything
So with these changes we have a new viability ranking. I'm not going to list the changes I've made as this one added and moved so many things it wold take forever.

1v1 UU Viability Rankings

S

Slowbro-Mega

Naganadel


A+

Aegislash

Mew

Golem

Heatran


A

Primarina

Genesect

Kommo-o

Whimsicott

Aggron-Mega/Aggron

Altaria-Mega


A-

Gardevoir-Mega

Tapu Fini

Pinsir-Mega

Sawk

Chansey

Tapu Bulu

Celesteela

Blacephalon

Incineroar

Meloetta


B+

Crustle

Blaziken-Mega

Excadrill

Togekiss

Haxorus

Swampert-Mega

Hoopa-Unbound

Diancie-Mega

Necrozma

Aron

Porygon2

Jumpluff

B

Kartana

Ferrothorn

Togedemaru

Medicham-Mega

Deoxys-Speed

Blastoise-Mega

Heracross-Mega

Gengar-Mega

Landorus-I

Nihilego

Pidgeot-Mega


B-

Scizor-Mega

Avalugg

Pheromosa

Hydreigon

Terrakion

Ampharos-Mega

Gallade-Mega

Keldeo


C

Lucario-Mega

Clefable

Breloom

Sceptile-Mega

Talonflame

Cloyster

Dodrio

Pyukumuku

Rhyperior

Weavile

Skarmory

Toxapex

Gliscor

Type: Null

Umbreon

Sorry I decided not to take the time to find all the images for every Pokemon
Also with this update I'm going to drop a sample team

Deoxys-S Stall

Deoxys-Speed @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 HP / 152 Def / 60 SpD / 44 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Amnesia
- Iron Defense
- Recover
- Taunt

Excadrill @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Giga Impact
- Iron Head

Hoopa-Unbound @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dark Pulse
- Psychic
- Focus Blast
- Thunderbolt

The team is based around supporting the few Pokemon that can break through a PP stall Deoxys-S (barring a crit of course) and although it is UU it works rather well on the regular ladder as well as Excadrill beats a lot of the meta and Hoopa can sometimes beat Gyarados-Mega (don't quote me on that).
That's all for now! Stay tuned for more sample teams as I continue building them along with changes to the rankings every once in a while (probably just when new usage stats come out).

 

[Fleeting Memories]

I got a bigger screen than my mobile, so it's time to post my thoughts on ZMoves......

Okay, I'll start off with my Z-Moves stance, which is TO NOT BAN Z-MOVES...


Z-Moves: My opinions

I think we are at a crucial juncture in this metagame where Z-Moves have shown their potential, their worth, their unhealthiness, their overbearing nature, their pros and cons for the 1v1 metagame.

WHY SHOULD Z MOVES BE ALLOWED IN 1v1 :

• Diversity:

Let's face it; you wouldn't have seen half the Pokemon from the Viability Rankings if not for Z-Moves. How else would you use Pokemon like Tapu Koko, Landorus-Therian, Tapu Lele, Magnezone, Donphan, Primarina, Buzzwole, Crustle, Kommo-o, amongst others, to its present threatening presence without Z-Moves? The answer: no other way. Z-Moves has brought that level of diversity to the table, which elevates the offensive presence of already good Pokemon, and makes other previously unviable Pokemon like Salazzle, Skarmory to become viable.

Now, you might be thinking "How could this possibly be healthy for 1v1 as a metagame?". The simple answer is that viable Pokemon are always going to be viable, and less viable or unviable ones are going to stay less viable or unviable regardless of Z-Move presence, with some notable exceptions being Tapu Koko and Mimikyu. What Z Moves did to the meta was to increase the power level of the meta (and balance it, but that's for another point altogether).

• Playstyle balance:

Z Moves provide options for all styles of play ranging from HyperOffense (Examples of Donphan, Primarina) to Setup Offense(Zygarde,Snorlax, Buzzwole) to Stall(Examples of Blissey, Umbreon, Quagsire) and other conceivable style of play. A no Z-move metagame was a living nightmare for a hyper-offense person;in gen 6 (the closest available reference to a developed no Z 1v1 metagame), predominant fast offense in the first part of the metagame followed by predominant bulky offense in the latter part became the only effective gameplay. I am not criticizing how things panned out in gen 6; but I do feel that various playstyles have been made possible by the inclusion (and the counters thereof) of Z Moves, and this is one of the main reasons I feel that Z Moves should not be banned.



Again, a question might arise as to this point's relevance. As for that, a healthy and a competitive metagame is one in which a player does not win tournaments or ladder using only a certain playstyle, ie, a player is as likely to win in a competitve arena using (say) stall as he is using (again, say)hyper offense. And Z Moves bring that into play, and the game seems to be at a balance bar a few Pokemon which seem to shift the balance.

• Introduction of skill :

Generation 7 brought Z Moves into the picture, and in the very early phases of gen71v1, it seemed as though Z Moves are going to shift the meta away from the skill-based metagame it was in generation. But as time progressed, it became increasingly clear that Z-Moves weren't all about the mindless 1 hit wonder it was touted and assumed to be, but far more than that. It gave rise to a meta which becomes skill-based, because "skill", as is popularly defined, means that one relies more on skill and brains that mere "sheer power",and Z Moves did exactly that by boosting every aspect of that process by providing a tool to assist in all aspects.


This might again beg the question as to how this exactly makes it allowable to the meta. And, as to that, (in my opinion) anything which allows skill-based play should be allowed in meta. I feel this because there is no point brooding over a meta being based off no skill if the skill-inducing and skill-based elements are removed.

I might not get the chance to post something this big, so i'll cram my opinions into one post...

THOUGHTS ON TAPU KOKO :

View attachment 108692

Looks overly familiar? If not, you have not seen the name "gen71v1" in your life. Such is its omniscient presence in the meta that despite being a newcomer, it has always been very much in usage

Hide

View attachment 108693 <-- December 2016
View attachment 108694 <-- January 2017
View attachment 108695 <-- February 2017
View attachment 108696 <-- March 2017
View attachment 108697 <-- April 2017
View attachment 108699 <-- May 2017
View attachment 108700 <-- June 2017
View attachment 108701 <-- July 2017
View attachment 108702 <-- August 2017
View attachment 108703 <-- September 2017
View attachment 108705 <-- October 2017
View attachment 108706 <-- November 2017
View attachment 108707 <-- December 2017
View attachment 108708 <-- January 2018
View attachment 108712 <-- February 2018

I wouldn't even have to pull up these stats for any 1v1 to know how centralising Koko is to teambuilding. Now, before USUM, a basic set was used to demolish most of the used Pokemon

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe (or) 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature (or) Timid Nature
- Wild Charge / Thunder
- Substitute
- Charge
- Taunt

Soon, this set found itself to be countered(not so) easily, with the most prominent ones being Mega Charizard X, bulky Mega Metagross, and Snorlax. And so, an upgraded version of this set without the Substitute part was made, and that soon took(and takes) centrestage in the current meta:

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost

Now, this set makes countering Tapu Koko very difficult, and its counters are, without exception, Ground-types and bulky Grass-types, both of which wins only by virtue of its typing. I believe this all of these factors (consistently centralising high usage, ability to smash most of meta, and having limited counters) pushes Koko to the "broken" and "banworthy" category. So, my stand is BAN TAPU KOKO.




P.S. : Please don't start dissecting my post to point out mistakes in logic; I'm pretty sure I've worded many parts poorly, and I'll happily discuss them over PMs.

So I can agree on some points here but One thing I DONT Agree on is the ban Tapu Koko, yes its Broken with Z, but If we look at other sets, Scarf Koko isnt a thing, and only sets without Z is the Specs Koko. Now I havevnt played any non-Z kokos in a while, probably never actaully (then if it is cuz Im low ladder or not that is another discussion). And TIBot´s registred usage stats for Koko items are that almost 90% use Electrium Z Koko and not many use the spread that WOA has suggested, or all 41% of other spreads is that exact spread. And If you WOULD (if you are mental) use the 4 most used Koko moves as a moveset combined with most used spread and Item, then you would end up with this set:

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 64 HP /252 SpAtk / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder
- Charge
- Taunt

Now I dont know about you but I wouldnt go close to that set, but think like this. If we restrict the Koko sets so you cant use Charge and Electrium Z on the same set. Now It beats less, It still would beat Zygarde sometimes. The only Checks and counters right now are Dragonite and Naganadel. Both gets beaten by Gyrados mega (If TIBots stats actually represent what I think) but in the 1v1 room (Great place if you somehow are here without even hearing about it) we recently had a poll and my now very good source Iron Crusher (Great Guy) has told me the results, 102 people was ProBan and 129 was Do not Ban. And Im one of those who isnt on the Ban train.

Now Lets be real, Koko is a good mon, but its not as Good as Kyu-B who was running around for so long, Kyu-B ran Scarf, Icium, heck it could even use Dragonium and Band, Also In Banning Kyu-B you banned a hard counter to Koko. But things like level 1 Arons with sturdy and Endeavor, Donphans with Sturdy and Groundium Z. Now I know that some council members have talked about banning Z so lets make a simulation if that would happen. Now Koko would have to rely on specs and being able to cover up as many mons as possible but Donphan would still win unless Koko somehow manages to get a Bulky Build that makes Donphans EQ not OHKO, Even with a Band. I think that build would be impossible.

Also lets go back to reality now, Im dont want Koko to get BANNED, but in reality it will since You can form a 3 mon team that makes Koko broken. Just add Magearna to a Gyrados-Mega and Koko team. Only other real mon that could fit in is Gardevoir, but it would die do like every Speedy and Strong CharX that exists unless Gardevoir is running Max HP, Max.Def with a +Def nature, only then Gardevoir-M wins. Magearnas only real counter is CharX and as long as Gyarados-M has Outrage, you will take out Char X. That is a valid point to get it banned unless it wasnt for that it is very easly prone to Prankster mons (Before Gyarados Megas) and if that 1 Prankster mon is Whimsicott, I can give you 50K$ if it wont win over a Gyarados-Mega unless Gyarados runs something like Ice Fang, Waterfall, Outrage, DDance. But then you got the small problem of killing the psychic Fairy types. Lele will most likely kill Gyarados with Moonblast, Mr.Mime isnt a real mon in 1v1 (If Im wrong contact me at idontcare@gmail.com), Gardevoir-M will kill Gyarados with Hyper Beam. So is Koko still broken? Lets focus on the Koko counter Naganadel and Dragonite. Dragonite will become more and more used in the future than today, just because they will ban Ice types from 1v1 someday when people just loves Dragonite. And Dragonite with EQ, DDance and Outrage+Fly and Flyium Z, will win over Koko unless you use Attis set and breaks Multiscale. Naganadel, Specs Scarf, Poisonium. All those will end up Killing Koko before it can kill them, unless you use charge and Naganadel misses Sludge Wave with Specs or Scarf. Poisonium from Sludge Wave takes out Koko, even if Max Sp.Def and Max HP. And Even if its Specs Sludge Wave Naga, then its a ROLL that is in Kokos favor but with abolished Sp.Atk. Only if Naga has Missed Sludge Wave and hits the next, it most likely comes down to if Thunder hits. And if its WIld Charge, It comes Down to hit Wild charge. So Unless you ban Dnite or Naganadel, I dont see why you should ban Tapu Koko.

If you want to talk about mistakes in writing, PM me on either Discord or PS. If you want to just talk my points just reply.

All for me. Peace!

EDIT: All the checks and counter stuff are taken from TIBot

 

[Freddy Kyogre]

If we restrict the Koko sets so you cant use Charge and Electrium Z on the same set. Now It beats less, It still would beat Zygarde sometimes. The only Checks and counters right now are Dragonite and Naganadel.

uh........... What??????? Since when did koko EVER beat zygarde??? Fairium shouldnt ohko any zygarde. Also, the kokoset that you threw up from the top usage IS a good and used set. Its the most common and most used, as far as I can see. I also dont see why you only think naganadel and dnite are its only counters, because any ground type isnt a thing, or metagross, or blaziken, or lopunny, or venusaur, or good leles. Another thing: you cant just say to not ban a mon because it has two counters that would have to be banned first, thats just not a reason. Im sorry man, I know you put a lot of time into your post, but some of the points just plainly aren't valid.

 

[ZeroPlasmaFist]

So I can agree on some points here but One thing I DONT Agree on is the ban Tapu Koko, yes its Broken with Z, but If we look at other sets, Scarf Koko isnt a thing, and only sets without Z is the Specs Koko. Now I havevnt played any non-Z kokos in a while, probably never actaully (then if it is cuz Im low ladder or not that is another discussion). And TIBot´s registred usage stats for Koko items are that almost 90% use Electrium Z Koko and not many use the spread that WOA has suggested, or all 41% of other spreads is that exact spread. And If you WOULD (if you are mental) use the 4 most used Koko moves as a moveset combined with most used spread and Item, then you would end up with this set:

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 64 HP /252 SpAtk / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
- Substitute
- Thunder
- Charge
- Taunt

Now I dont know about you but I wouldnt go close to that set, but think like this. If we restrict the Koko sets so you cant use Charge and Electrium Z on the same set. Now It beats less, It still would beat Zygarde sometimes. The only Checks and counters right now are Dragonite and Naganadel. Both gets beaten by Gyrados mega (If TIBots stats actually represent what I think) but in the 1v1 room (Great place if you somehow are here without even hearing about it) we recently had a poll and my now very good source Iron Crusher (Great Guy) has told me the results, 102 people was ProBan and 129 was Do not Ban. And Im one of those who isnt on the Ban train.

Now Lets be real, Koko is a good mon, but its not as Good as Kyu-B who was running around for so long, Kyu-B ran Scarf, Icium, heck it could even use Dragonium and Band, Also In Banning Kyu-B you banned a hard counter to Koko. But things like level 1 Arons with sturdy and Endeavor, Donphans with Sturdy and Groundium Z. Now I know that some council members have talked about banning Z so lets make a simulation if that would happen. Now Koko would have to rely on specs and being able to cover up as many mons as possible but Donphan would still win unless Koko somehow manages to get a Bulky Build that makes Donphans EQ not OHKO, Even with a Band. I think that build would be impossible.

Also lets go back to reality now, Im dont want Koko to get BANNED, but in reality it will since You can form a 3 mon team that makes Koko broken. Just add Magearna to a Gyrados-Mega and Koko team. Only other real mon that could fit in is Gardevoir, but it would die do like every Speedy and Strong CharX that exists unless Gardevoir is running Max HP, Max.Def with a +Def nature, only then Gardevoir-M wins. Magearnas only real counter is CharX and as long as Gyarados-M has Outrage, you will take out Char X. That is a valid point to get it banned unless it wasnt for that it is very easly prone to Prankster mons (Before Gyarados Megas) and if that 1 Prankster mon is Whimsicott, I can give you 50K$ if it wont win over a Gyarados-Mega unless Gyarados runs something like Ice Fang, Waterfall, Outrage, DDance. But then you got the small problem of killing the psychic Fairy types. Lele will most likely kill Gyarados with Moonblast, Mr.Mime isnt a real mon in 1v1 (If Im wrong contact me at idontcare@gmail.com), Gardevoir-M will kill Gyarados with Hyper Beam. So is Koko still broken? Lets focus on the Koko counter Naganadel and Dragonite. Dragonite will become more and more used in the future than today, just because they will ban Ice types from 1v1 someday when people just loves Dragonite. And Dragonite with EQ, DDance and Outrage+Fly and Flyium Z, will win over Koko unless you use Attis set and breaks Multiscale. Naganadel, Specs Scarf, Poisonium. All those will end up Killing Koko before it can kill them, unless you use charge and Naganadel misses Sludge Wave with Specs or Scarf. Poisonium from Sludge Wave takes out Koko, even if Max Sp.Def and Max HP. And Even if its Specs Sludge Wave Naga, then its a ROLL that is in Kokos favor but with abolished Sp.Atk. Only if Naga has Missed Sludge Wave and hits the next, it most likely comes down to if Thunder hits. And if its WIld Charge, It comes Down to hit Wild charge. So Unless you ban Dnite or Naganadel, I dont see why you should ban Tapu Koko.

If you want to talk about mistakes in writing, PM me on either Discord or PS. If you want to just talk my points just reply.

All for me. Peace!

as has been mentioned somewhere in the resources thread, the council doesn't like complex bans, so they wouldn't restrict charge and electric type moves. Also, tapu koko is still pretty amazing with electrium and no charge.

 

[Yung Dramps]

If people really want to keep Koko around, I wouldn't even be against blanket-banning Electrium Z. If we did that, we could keep around a more balanced Koko, and the collateral damage wouldn't be that bad (really only mon aside from koko that would be affected by it thundy-t, and that can still run specs)

I still think banning Tapu Koko is the best option, but if people generally dislike the idea of a ban on Koko itself due to liking the utility and unique set of mons it beats with its powerful electric STABs, that is certainly another option worth looking into.

 

[Nalei]

Fairium shouldnt ohko any zygarde

252+ SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 482-570 (115 - 136%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Fairium should OHKO the vast majority of Zygardes. Even if you're SpD, it's not a guaranteed win:
252+ SpA Tapu Koko Twinkle Tackle (160 BP) vs. 144 HP / 252+ SpD Zygarde: 344-408 (87.5 - 103.8%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO

or metagross, or blaziken, or lopunny, or venusaur, or good leles

Here's the lengths Metagross has to go to to counter Koko:

Hide

Metagross-Mega @ Metagrossite
Ability: Clear Body
EVs: 228 HP / 24 Atk / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bulldoze
- Laser Focus
- Earthquake
- Meteor Mash

Blaziken is a mutual 50/50, Lopunny is beat by exceptionally bulky variants and Lele is also a 50/50. Venusaur is a fairly reliable counter, however.

The only Checks and counters right now are Dragonite and Naganadel.

Dragonite loses to Iron Defense+Roost, but Naganadel is a fairly reliable counter.

Donphan would still win unless Koko somehow manages to get a Bulky Build that makes Donphans EQ not OHKO, Even with a Band

Check out this set:

Hide

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Iron Defense
- Roost

Yep, that beats Donphan and Golem. Now, it does lose to Choice Band, but that set is absurdly uncommon.

Only if Naga has Missed Sludge Wave and hits the next

Sludge Wave doesn't miss. So, what counters does Koko have? Here's a list:
Anti-Koko Metagross, Flame Charge+SD Mega Charizard X, SpD Landorus-T, Scarf Porygon-Z, Mega Venusaur, Choice Band Donphan, Scarf Greninja, Specs/Scarf Naganadel, Scarf Garchomp, certain Mega Tyranitar, Mega Camerupt, Excadrill, Alolan Marowak, Specs Pheromosa, Tapu Bulu, Thundurus-T, and Mega Sceptile.
So, does it have counters? Yes. Do its counters have opportunity cost to them? Yes. The only non-set specific counter above C+ is Mega Venusaur, and I was being generous classifying it, Bulu and Sceptile as counters due to the possibility of Flyinium. Think for yourself which side of the argument this supports.

 

[DEG]

There's 2 fundamental problems in 1v1 in my opinion, Tapu Koko and Sleep. Both are clearly crossing the borders between what's broken and not. I've already talked about Koko but I'd like to bring more points.

I don't know, I seriously haven't seen a Pokemon as broken as Tapu Koko, I'm not going to use that VR beating stuff, takes lot of times and nobody reads it. Tapu Koko beats more than 3/4 of the metagame with one set, that's even more than Kyurem-Black with the 5 sets. Tapu Koko typing is great and makes it weak both Ground, and Poison-type Pokemon. The former are limited to Golem and Donphan at most, with some uses such as Garchomp and Swampert while the latter are limited to Mega Venusaur and Naganadel. Other Pokemon with coverage moves such as Dragonite and Mega Metagross can go against Tapu Koko but with Iron Defense in its pocket there's no way they can beat it. Additionally, Tapu Koko can adjust its sets to defeat Ground-type Pokemon in high competitive plays.

Moreover, people are starting to run sets that you wouldn't see outside of countering Tapu Koko such as Laser Focus Mega Metagross and Scarf Meloetta as noted by Kentari, this is a joke and shows how overcentralizing Tapu Koko is. A pokemon should NOT be overcentralizing in the metagame, specially in 1v1, this, first, limits teambuilding. People are building teams that lose to Koko unless they run its limited counters, and forcing people to run the same Pokemon(s) just to defeat one Pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame. As 1v1 community and leaders our objective is to diversify the metagame, is to make it a healthy place where one should not run specific Pokemon to win against one other specific Pokemon.

Tapu Koko is one of the only Pokemon that can easily (I know Bulk up is a thing but it's only on the physical side) boost both its Defenses and Offenses thanks to Iron Defense and Charge which allows it to pick whatever it likes in matchups. This is a big plus to Tapu Koko and enters in a big portion of what makes it truly broken.

Adding to that, Tapu Koko paired with 2 other Pokemon can cover pretty cleanly 99% of the metagame and force most of the time, if not all the time, 50/50 which is extremely unhealthy for the metagame. It also has high speed so it doesn't have to worry about other Pokemon outspeeding it easily dropping Z-Thunder / Z-Wild Charge / Charge / ID. Speaking of moves, you do not even know if its physical or special which is more absurd.

Yall know what Tapu Koko does and this joke has been running around in the 1v1 metagame for TOO LONG, and should be banned. Tapu Koko is even more broken than Kyurem-Black and I haven't seen something like that ever since the Perish Song ban.


Another point is Sleep. Yea, sleep is a mechanic so what. I'm not proposing a ban on the mechanic but on sleep-inducing moves. The council has banned Jirachi for being hax-based and decided to vote against Sleep even though it's even more hax based, can we atleast stay consistent? Now I know people are going to bring Togekiss for consistency but lol Togekiss even being broken or doing something.

I don't know how Sleep is still in the metagame other than it being a "mechanic", it is seriously unfun, uncompetitive and unhealthy. Even more than Jirachi. Yea, no I'm also not running Lum Berry or Substitute on every Pokemon sacrificing an item or moveslot for just this. Actually, people having to run Lum Berry and Sub on Pokemon to not lose to sleep is a joke. Also, it is not Snorlax that is broken, sleep is broken. Starting from Snorlax to Jumpluff, Mega Swampert and others. There's actually NO reason at all for running Yawn or other sleep-inducing moves except for the fact that you want an easy win and hax your opponent out of his win, didn't Jirachi do the same too?

1v1 is trying to be a competitive and fun metagame and I don't think keeping sleep is allowing 1v1 to be this way. I just need someone to explain me the skill in using Sleep on the opponent and praying you get the sleep turn. It pushes the game to coinflips, somewhere where 1v1 doesn't want to go. If you're also telling me it's unreliable, Jirachi haxing game was also unreliable and actually had more checks

For the sake of creating a competitive metagame I also propose a sleep ban. I don't think anyone will be unhappy with removing more coinflips in 1v1.

BAN TAPU KOKO
BAN SLEEP
lsf

 

[Uselesscrab]

Another point is Sleep. Yea, sleep is a mechanic so what. I'm not proposing a ban on the mechanic but on sleep-inducing moves. The council has banned Jirachi for being hax-based and decided to vote against Sleep even though it's even more hax based, can we atleast stay consistent? Now I know people are going to bring Togekiss for consistency but lol Togekiss even being broken or doing something.

I don't know how Sleep is still in the metagame other than it being a "mechanic", it is seriously unfun, uncompetitive and unhealthy. Even more than Jirachi. Yea, no I'm also not running Lum Berry or Substitute on every Pokemon sacrificing an item or moveslot for just this. Actually, people having to run Lum Berry and Sub on Pokemon to not lose to sleep is a joke. Also, it is not Snorlax that is broken, sleep is broken. Starting from Snorlax to Jumpluff, Mega Swampert and others. There's actually NO reason at all for running Yawn or other sleep-inducing moves except for the fact that you want an easy win and hax your opponent out of his win, didn't Jirachi do the same too?

Isn't this excerpt (particularly what I bolded) a pretty cut-and-dry contradiction of the argument that you and others have used against banning Z-moves in the past? I mean, just look at this post you made in February:

So instead of banning the whole mechanic or doing nothing at all, there's an overlooked option that seems to mitigate the issue. Now people may say we are running away from the problem instead of facing it, but in fact it is the way of facing the problem without receiving a lot of damage. There's a policy in my head which says; "If the Z-Crystal makes multiple Pokemon broken, the Z-Crystal should be banned, and if isn't the case, the abuser should be banned". By saying that we have classified our current metagames into Pokemon that use Z-Crystals but aren't broken as they have lot of checks and others that abuse Z-Crystals and with that can take on pretty much a big portion of the metagame.

Obviously no single sleep abuser is remotely as powerful as Tapu Koko (or Kyurem-B, at that time), and in general those Pokemon that use the apparently broken strategy of sleep aren't among the cream of the crop of 1v1, besides Snorlax. The overall group of Z-move users is much better than the overall group of sleep users; make of that what you will.

As far I can tell, the only difference is that it's easier to pass off people who want Z-moves banned as wanting to harken back to the good old days of generation 6, whereas sleep has been a part of the game since its inception.

Here's QT on the same subject:

Z moved are a mechanic, just like stealth rocks in gen 4 for singles or Mega Evolutions in gen 6, and its one we have to live with bar the most extreme circumstances. Banning items at all is supposed to be a big step; while form changing mega items are treated the same way as pokemon due to their mechanic, it does (and should) take something on the level of focus sash or past gen soul dew to cause it. You could treat it as a move ban, which I suppose is fair, but those have just as stringent conditions. By and large, we tier Pokemon. This means that the first resort is to ban abusers, and only proceed onwards after that has failed. Suspect Tapu Koko, or Mimikyu, or whichever mon you think is actually broken when using zmoves. If the community doesnt find them broken? C’est la vie.

To summarize, one of these mindsets has to be wrong. We either have to look at individual Pokemon in all cases, or look at overarching issues in all cases. (And I think this ties in to the current ban discussion about Tapu Koko, too.)

edit: Just to clarify, I don't think sleep and Z-moves are comparable at all. Obviously sleep has a luck-based component that doesn't line up with that of Z-moves entirely. That's precisely why I think we need to reconsider using the same / contradictory argumentative tactics for both.

 

[DEG]

Isn't this excerpt (particularly what I bolded) a pretty cut-and-dry contradiction of the argument that you and others have used against banning Z-moves in the past? I mean, just look at this post you made in February:



Obviously no single sleep abuser is remotely as powerful as Tapu Koko (or Kyurem-B, at that time), and in general those Pokemon that use the apparently broken strategy of sleep aren't among the cream of the crop of 1v1, besides Snorlax. The overall group of Z-move users is much better than the overall group of sleep users; make of that what you will.

As far I can tell, the only difference is that it's easier to pass off people who want Z-moves banned as wanting to harken back to the good old days of generation 6, whereas sleep has been a part of the game since its inception.

Here's QT on the same subject:



To summarize, one of these mindsets has to be wrong. We either have to look at individual Pokemon in all cases, or look at overarching issues in all cases. (And I think this ties in to the current ban discussion about Tapu Koko, too.)

edit: Just to clarify, I don't think sleep and Z-moves are comparable at all. That's precisely why I think we need to reconsider using the same / contradictory argumentative tactics for both.

I don't see how you can compare Z-moves and Sleep-inducing moves. There's nothing contradictory here since you can't compare both. A policy that we made about Z-moves at the start of the generation is what you stated; "If the abuser is broken we ban the abuser, if the crystal is we ban the crystal." Also, Sleep-inducing moves aren't broken on 1 abuser, they are broken in general imo so that also doesn't contradict my thoughts. Z-moves doesn't push the game to coinflips lotta bunch of 50/50, hax and praying that you get the luck meanwhile sleep does.

Jirachi wasn't also on the cream top of 1v1, we ban things not only because they are broken but because they are also either uncompetitive or unhealthy for the metagame. Both Sleep and Flinch hax are uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame.

 

[dom]

no but really can someone tell me why youd ban a fucking status instead of 1 mon that abuses it particularly well? (snorlax) also since both lax and koko abuse zmoves to become "broken" why not ban z if we like beating around the bush so much.

 

[Uselesscrab]

I don't see how you can compare Z-moves and Sleep-inducing moves. There's nothing contradictory here since you can't compare both. A policy that we made about Z-moves at the start of the generation is what you stated; "If the abuser is broken we ban the abuser, if the crystal is we ban the crystal."

Okay, but why are sleep users exempt from this policy?

Jirachi wasn't also on the cream top of 1v1, we ban things not only because they are broken but because they are also either uncompetitive or unhealthy for the metagame. Both Sleep and Flinch hax are uncompetitive and unhealthy for the metagame.

There seems to be a somewhat misunderstanding while discussing Z-moves. People tend to label them as broken, but in fact they aren't broken. They are unhealthy. They overcentralize the metagame around them in an unhealthy way which is way they are in the unhealthy box and not broken.

I totally get that these things are extremely unlike one another. That's why I find it startling that the arguments regarding them use the exact same rhetoric, but in two opposite ways.

edit: And I'm sorry for this dumb, quote-splicing, passive-aggressive way of using your words against you, but I don't really know how else to make my point clear in this situation.

 

[Blazikin]

imma reitterate my idea for the koko part to simply just ban electriumz off of it , since that part is the enabler of the roost/iron def freedom coupled with charge+finisher zmove. you could argue " it will just use a different z stone then" but those zstones will then not allow it to use the charge dmg booster anymore making it way less threatening dmg wise. it also would make it in case it choses to specs or lifeorb just a different version of magnezone without sturdy but more glasscannon power. i will later put on my stance for the sleep case. but i think electrium z ban on koko not the mon itself would be the most balancing move whilst koko completely gone would be ok too just not as best as it could be in my opinion

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

I agree with deg that if we’re going to ban sleep we need to ban it and not the abusers. This makes more sense and has been done before in other tiers rather recently. UU banned drought and not mega houndoom because the mon wasn’t broken, just the tools it was given. This is the same for 1v1. Snorlax without sleep is still a good mon, but it removes the luck factor of sleep, Jumpluff just turns into a worse whimsicott.
Blanket statement rq, as with most bans I really don’t care if we ban it or not but if we do it should be done right

imma reitterate my idea for the koko part to simply just ban electriumz off of it

This is a complex ban which smogon doesn’t like so that’s why we can’t do it

 

[Felucia]

Sorry about the one-liner.

Friendly reminder that the ones who mention complexity in this thread are not council members. As far as I've seen no council member has mentioned we don't like complexity, so if you have a complex idea no point in not bringing it up

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

Sorry about the one-liner.

Friendly reminder that the ones who mention complexity in this thread are not council members. As far as I've seen no council member has mentioned we don't like complexity, so if you have a complex idea no point in not bringing it up

Sorry uop didn’t mean to offend

 

[edudittA]

Okay, but why are sleep users exempt from this policy?





I totally get that these things are extremely unlike one another. That's why I find it startling that the arguments regarding them use the exact same rhetoric, but in two opposite ways.

edit: And I'm sorry for this dumb, quote-splicing, passive-aggressive way of using your words against you, but I don't really know how else to make my point clear in this situation.

Okay, I'll throw my 0.5¢ coz that's all I have.....

It was not a wise decision to actually have banned Jirachi when the broken aspect was Serene Grace+ 30% FlinchRateMoves, but that involved a complex ban. On the other hand, there is nothing complex ban in banning Sleep-inducing moves, and that is why it is a feasible option to ban Sleep-inducing moves, but not SereneGrace Flinchers.

imma reitterate my idea for the koko part to simply just ban electriumz off of it , since that part is the enabler of the roost/iron def freedom coupled with charge+finisher zmove. you could argue " it will just use a different z stone then" but those zstones will then not allow it to use the charge dmg booster anymore making it way less threatening dmg wise. it also would make it in case it choses to specs or lifeorb just a different version of magnezone without sturdy but more glasscannon power. i will later put on my stance for the sleep case. but i think electrium z ban on koko not the mon itself would be the most balancing move whilst koko completely gone would be ok too just not as best as it could be in my opinion

Koko is a broken Pokemon. If Electrium Koko is banned, Magnet Koko or something better would arise which would become centralising (maybe not the Electrium Koko extent, but still will be). I know this latter part is based off of future predictions while the bans are based on the present metagame, but that part is just to explain how the broken element is Electric Koko in itself, and not Electrium Koko. This is why I feel Koko as a whole should go, and not just Electrium Koko.

 

[FrostedClay]

To throw my two cents into this, I feel like the problem with Tapu Koko isn't so much Its ridiculous power with Z crystals, so much as it is all the pieces that Tapu Koko has access to that make it overbearing and hard to fight. Namely, it has access to so many great things, Iron defense, Roost, Electric Surge, Great coverage in HP Ice, Charge to double the power of either wild charge or thunderbolt (making it less predictable, since it'll bost up before even revealing whether it's physical or special), fantastic speed, a powerful typing in Electric/Fairy, and of course Z crystals to bloat the power of its moves. To this end, even with the removing of Z crystals, at worst, we'd force Tapu Koko to decide whether it wants immediate power with a boosting item like a choice specs/band or lesser power and the ability to spam iron defense and roost to its hearts content.
This same reason is why Kyurem-Black was as overbearing as it was when it was still around, even if the community had banned it from being able to use subzero slammer, it still had a myriad of sets to run, from Scarf, to Band, to Specs, to bulky sets, and even gimmicks like Groundium Z or Assault Vest, it still had everything else that made it powerful (Stats, moves, ABILITY, etc.) to fall back on even if the community took away its most powerful nuking option.
In a similar vein, my issue with banning Z crystals from Koko (or in general) sets a precedent that When a Pokemon is broken, we'll simply ban it's Z crystals or it's use of an ability or item, keeping the broken Pokemon around and giving it more time to restrict the format in another way. This makes the format incredibly complex and potentially less welcoming to newcomers who would inevitably get frustrated having to jump through a bunch of loops just to use one Pokemon in order for it to not be considered 'broken', instead of simply being told it was too much for the format and was banned justly.
A blanket ban of Z crystals doesn't help this either, since for every Pokemon who uses Z crystals to break the format, there are also many more who need them to either stay relevant at all or have entire sets and means of play associated with them. Z crystals, as well as the myriad of items available to us in this game, allow for a huge arrange of creativity and depth to the format that would be dearly lost if we were to start restricting them individually or ban them altogether, as an example, I've been using Klinklang as of late, and its access to Electrium Z, Wild charge, and Clear body allow it to be a very effective Gyarados answer, something it could absolutely never be if it didn't have the crystal, which not only allows it to be somewhat viable, it also gives it a degree of uniqueness, something I'd imagine a lot of other Pokemon are guilty of as well.
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In short, I cannot personally support a nitpicking of Tapu Koko and careful removal of it's 'broken' qualities in an effort to keep it in the format, when it has so many qualities that are overwhelming it'd be better to ban it as a whole if the community must do anything about it at all, and in a similar vein, the removal of Z crystals as a whole would do more damage than it would good, since it'd render obsolete a huge pool of pokemon who now shine a little more thanks to them.
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(My apologies in advance if I broke any rules or made glaring generalizations about this issue, I'm still relatively new to the forums and their etiquette.)

 

[Elo Bandit]

Thoughts on Sleep:

As much as I dislike the idea of banning a status mechanic, it makes sense to stay consistent with the Jirachi ban and remove elements of uncontrolled randomness from the metagame. Sleep is not a problem because it is particularly *powerful* but because it reduces matches to luck of sleep turns rather than intelligent and meaningful choices.

I don't like killing off pokemon like Jumpluff and Breloom completely, but I think overall a ban on sleep would be justified given past ban reasoning.

Thoughts on Tapu Koko:

The problem here is not Z-Moves, nor is it Electrium-Z. The problem is that Tapu Koko is just really, really powerful and versatile. I won't spend too long on this because people have already made all the relevant points - it can boost all its stats with very little opportunity cost, it can outspeed most things without significant investment, it can run physical or special and several variations of both. Tapu Koko is the first thing I have to think about when teambuilding, because I need at least one check for all its potential sets. It's a scary day when STAB Groundium-Z users like Golem and Donphan can't even take out defensive Tapu Koko reliably, and that has nothing to do with Electrium-Z.

On that topic, Tapu Koko's omnipresence is no reason to justify gutting Magnezone, Thundurus, Conversion Porygon-Z, and lesser used pokemon like anti-Gyarados Gothitelle with an Electrium Z ban. So as to keep our tiering philosophy consistent, it makes sense to ban the move abuser (Tapu Koko) rather than the abused move (Gigavolt Havoc/Electrium Z).

 

[blondesasukeuchiha]

Quick Post, nothing much really just pointing out a flaw in most people's ban posts.
So a lot of people are hopping on the ban sleep + ban koko train and I don't really see any problems this except for one thing (well its actually two but whatever)
Every argument to ban Koko and not Z Moves/Electrium Z/Koko with Electrium Z: Lets say Koko without Electrium Z isn't broken, even if it isn't we should stay with our usual banning method and ban the abuser and not the strategy like we did with Jirachi
I agree with this, that is the right way to do it
Every argument to ban sleep: Sleep as a mechanic is broken not the abusers them selves because without sleep they're not broken
I agree with thi-- wait a minute, does anyone else see the problem with these two arguments. THEY ARE EXACTLY OPPOSITE. If we're banning Koko for being an abuser shouldn't we ban Snorlax, Jumpluff, Swampert, ext.? If we're banning sleep shouldn't we just ban Electrium Z?
Both ways have their arguments, a sleep ban is like an accuracy ban, or a Koko ban is the same as Jirachi.
I don't have an answer to this predicament and maybe there doesn't need to be one but I just thought it was odd the way everyone was arguing.
Thanks For Reading and Happy Laddering! (At least happier than my dismal attempts)
Edit: Just because I'm pointing out this flaw doesn't mean I'm against the ban, I don't really care what get banned or not, doesn't change UU

 

[Tol]

thoughts on simply banning Electric Surge?
As far as I know, only having access to Telepathy would make Koko a virtual nonentity in 1v1, it's the Electric Terrain that gets Koko nearly all of its kills.
Since it's Koko's signature ability, it wouldn't affect anything else, just tone down Koko to the point where the only reason you're using it is as a meme counter for Gyarados
also Elo Bandit if you don't like uncontrolled randomness then go play chess, it's fun
really the thing to ban is not randomness but things that can twist the randomness in your favor and do it consistently and well
after all we aren't banning crits, paralysis, or Sawsbuck, are we?