Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

pqs

never leave
is a Pre-Contributor
thoughts on simply banning Electric Surge?
As far as I know, only having access to Telepathy would make Koko a virtual nonentity in 1v1, it's the Electric Terrain that gets Koko nearly all of its kills.
Since it's Koko's signature ability, it wouldn't affect anything else, just tone down Koko to the point where the only reason you're using it is as a meme counter for Gyarados
telepathy is unreleased on koko

Screenshot 2018-04-16 at 7.55.24 PM.png
 
Last edited:

Rosa

Terrible Tyrant
is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
TAPU KOKO
Initially, I first perceived Tapu Koko as a problem with Z-Moves, back before Roost became meta, however, after a whole lot of field testing, it's become clear to me that the Koko problem extends further than just Z-Moves.

With Iron Defense, Charge, and Roost, Koko becomes an excellent staller, while it still has the hyper offensive "nuke button" at its disposal to use whenever the trainer should feel like using it. This dangerous combination allows Tapu Koko to fulfill just about every kind of Pokemon archetype all in a single set.

Now let's look at things that consistently beat Tapu Koko on a regular basis (not including niche sets like Specs or Fairium). This list will only feature direct counters rather than checks where "you win if you do this this way and he does that".

Dragonite -
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. +2 160 HP / 252 Def Tapu Koko: 162-192 (50.4 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Dragonite Earthquake vs. +4 160 HP / 252 Def Tapu Koko: 108-128 (33.6 - 39.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
That's a lot of bulk necessary to beat Dragonite and I'm willing to bet you're not running that much unless you're willing to sacrifice the Greninja matchup.


Metagross-Mega - Laser Focus lol


Landorus-Therian - It's a Ground type so-

Zygarde-Complete - Also Ground

Lopunny-Mega - Rolls from Fake Out and Giga Impact can be mitigated with more bulk than necessary for withstanding Dragonite's attacks, but again, that risks sacrificing the Greninja matchup in order to do so.


Porygon-Z - Scarf

Venusaur-Mega - Grass and Poison


Donphan - Ground

Golem - Ground

Greninja - Faster than bulky Koko and OHKO's or the godly Scarf Ground move

Naganadel - Resists and is Poison

Ferrothorn - Resists. inb4 someone makes Taunt Roost to beat Ferrothorn

Garchomp - Ground

Gengar-Mega - Speed ties max Speed, kills anything slower.

Hoopa-Unbound - Scarf Gunk Shot?

Swampert-Mega - Ground


Camerupt-Mega - Ground

Excadrill - Ground

Marowak-Alola - Lightningrod

Pheromosa - Specs Hyper Beam?

Tapu Bulu - Grass + Terrain remover

Blacephalon - Scarf Mind Blown

Deoxys-S - Specs Psycho Boost

Garchomp-Mega - Ground

Landorus - Ground

Thundurus-Therian - Volt Absorb

Manectric-Mega - Lightningrod pre-Mega

Quagsire - Ground

Rhyperior - Ground

Sceptile-Mega - Gets Lightningrod

Slaking - Scarf Giga Impact? (loses to anti dnite/lopunny bulk)

Stunfisk - Ground

32 Counters to the varying Electrium sets, some hard, some not so hard. When you look at these counters, you notice there's a trend here. Everything either has an advantageous type/ability and/or is faster than AND strong enough to knock it out (typically requiring Scarves or setup). There are hardly any Counters that can just use "coverage" moves and pull off a win vs Koko, akin to throwing on a random Fire move for Genesect and Ferrothorn. There's also another trend in that most of these counters are limited to the lower layers of the VR, meaning that you really don't have a lot of leeway when it comes to building teams that don't automatically lose to Electrium Tapu Koko, let alone all Tapu Koko, while also being able to perform consistently vs the entire rest of the metagame.

Now of course, simply being a good Pokemon means that it will have a limited number of counters, so that brings the question up to us: Does Tapu Koko have enough counters? Now, since a lot of people don't have the wherewithal to make page-long posts like these, here's a simpler way of communicating your sentiment: https://www.strawpoll.me/15512076

SLEEP
I already dropped all the raw numbers showing that Sleep takes the battle out of players' hands more often than OHKO does in my previous post way back: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1.3587523/page-28#post-7506159 so instead, let's focus on how it takes skill away from the metagame:

First and foremost, we have smogon's own definition of what skill is:
I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon.
  • Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
    • Assessing and Dealing with Threats
    • Building Towards a Strategy (or Strategies)
    • Creativity
    • Catering to Metagame / Opponents
  • Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
    • Picking the Right Lead
    • Recognizing the Win Condition
    • Picking the Right Move
    • Smart Switching
    • Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
    • Long-term vs. Short-term Goals
    • Assessing Risk
    • Probability Management
    • Prediction

Next, we compare this to using Sleep vs being up against a Sleep user:
I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon.
  • Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
    • Assessing and Dealing with Threats / - It certainly deals with threats, but only on chanced rolls of hitting and keeping the opponent asleep for multiple turns.
    • Building Towards a Strategy (or Strategies)
    • Creativity - Sleep abusing sets have little to no variability in how you use them
    • Catering to Metagame / Opponents - Sleep abusers aren't built for metagame threats, the sets just happen to work against them.

  • Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
    • Picking the Right Lead
    • Recognizing the Win Condition
    • Picking the Right Move
    • Smart Switching - There is no switching in 1v1 so rip-
    • Gathering Information and Making Assumptions
    • Long-term vs. Short-term Goals
    • Assessing Risk
    • Probability Management - Enforcing and relying on RNG is not managing it. Similar to Jirachi, it just takes too much of the battle away from players, both using and opposing.
    • Prediction - There is no predicting, just Sleep and pray.

I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon.
  • Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
    • Assessing and Dealing with Threats
    • Building Towards a Strategy (or Strategies)
    • Creativity / - You can afford to be creative with the Pokemon that are faster than 110 Spe, at least.
    • Catering to Metagame / Opponents

  • Battling Skill - the part of skill involved in actually battling
    • Picking the Right Lead / - While picking the right lead isn't completely counteracted, it is still hindered in the sense that "the right lead" now has the added constraint of having to be faster than the sleep abuser.
    • Recognizing the Win Condition
    • Picking the Right Move - You can't pick any move when you're asleep, let alone the right one.
    • Smart Switching - There is no switching in 1v1 so rip-
    • Gathering Information and Making Assumptions / - Sleep abusers are currently pretty obvious for the most part, with the exceptions of some Yawn users, so you're not really gathering much information besides getting to see what other mons they're bringing alongside the sleep abuser.
    • Long-term vs. Short-term Goals - Your goals get replaced with the hopes that the abuser will disconnect, or that they won't by chance use Protect on the exact turn you wake up trying to use Taunt or Uproar just to put you back to sleep and win because of it.
    • Assessing Risk - People like to think that Sleep abuse is limited to just Jumpluff, Snorlax, and the lesser used Gengar, but it extends beyond that. Yawn, which is very widely distributed, is basically a 100% accurate sleep move, at the expense of a moveslot space for Protect. A staggering number of Pokemon also get Sing/Grasswhistle/Hypnosis, and before you go "lol Sing", don't forget that it does its job of hitting AND getting you a lethal net gain of turns more often than OHKO moves hit (percentages in the post linked above). Because of this, there are far too many Pokemon that can abuse even these "bad" sleep moves, thus increasing risk substantially and taking skill out of the metagame as a result.
    • Probability Management - If your form of probability management is hoping they miss, you've got a problem.
    • Prediction - There is no predicting, just pray you wake up.

Bear in mind that this is just my interpretation of the effect Sleep abuse has on skill within the metagame. Now, with the whole matter of Sleep vs Jirachi: there are significantly more Sleep abusers than there are Serene Grace abusers, about 100 potential abusers in fact. Keeping that in mind should make it clear that this is an issue more akin to gen 6 Swagger, where far too many Pokemon were potential abusers, than being a problem with individual abusers.

Next, I want to make it very, perfectly clear that Sleep is NOT broken, but instead uncompetitive. It pains me every time I see someone say that Sleep is or isn't broken, even if they're just using the term broken to mean uncompetitive since they're too lazy to type the word out. Additionally, it can also be very confusing for people who are only just getting involved in this conversation, so here are the very definitions for what constitutes being uncompetitive and broken, so that it's made perfectly clear that this is a discussion about Sleep being uncompetitive.
II.) Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

  • This can be matchup related; think the determination that Baton Pass took the battling skill aspect out of the player's hands and made it overwhelmingly a team matchup issue, where even the best moves made each time by a standard team often were not enough.
  • This can be external factors; think Endless Battle Clause, where the determining factor became internet connection over playing skill.
  • This can be probability management issues; think OHKOs, evasion, or Moody, all of which turned the battle from emphasizing battling skill to emphasizing the result of the RNG more often than not.

III.) Broken - elements that are too good relative to the rest of the metagame such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant.

  • These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage.
  • These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.
  • Uncompetitive and Broken defined like this tend to be mutually exclusive in practice, but they aren't necessarily entirely so.
    • Baton Pass was deemed uncompetitive because of how drastically it removed battling skill's effects and brought the battle down to matchup, but it could also be deemed broken because of the unique ways in which you had to deal with it.
    • While this isn't always the case, an uncompetitive thing probably isn't broken, but a broken thing is more likely to be uncompetitive simply due to the unique counter / check component. For example, Mega Kangaskhan was deemed broken because it was simply too good relative to the rest of the metagame and caused the tier to centralize around it, but it could also be labeled as uncompetitive because of the severe team matchup restriction it caused by punishing players if they did not pack one of the few obscure counters or checks for it.


Now, since skill is a subjective concept that varies with interpretation, I'll pass the question to you guys the same way I did for Koko: Does Sleep take too much skill away from the metagame? https://www.strawpoll.me/15518895

I know that Strawpolls aren't exactly the most reliable way to survey people, but I can't think of anything better.

Thanks for reading ^-^
 
Something I didn't touch up on in my post about Tapu Koko was sleep (and that's mainly because everyone else has talked about it a gods plenty and I actually don't have an opinion on whether it should be banned or not yet.), but after looking over some of what Orsa was saying I felt I should contribute a few of the random thoughts in my head regarding it.

-RNG is always a factor-
Sleep is at its core, noncompetitive in my eyes, as it forces games down to a mere game of chance and RNG as to whether you'll wake up or not and through this allows Pokemon who use sleep to win match-ups they absolutely shouldn't (I heard someone in chat saying "Jumpluff counters Charizard 75% of the time!" in chat because of this). However, I can't shake the feeling that banning an entire status condition from the game is quite staggering in and of itself, but it also has some implications about how far we as a community should/could actually go in removing RNG and RNG based strategies from the game, as random critical hits and moves missing is practically a fact of Pokemon life at this point and it also makes me think of Pokemon like Sawsbuck and Kings Rock Skill link Pokemon (Cincinno mainly) who can cheese victories from opponents easily due to the inherent RNG of their sets design, this is bluntly noncompetitive but is obviously not an issue enough to consider banning these Pokemon or their items/abilities from the game, which again begs the question of where the community will go after its debate on sleep is finished (ban or not).

-Tapu Koko and Sleep may be linked?-
Another point I thought of was the potential banning of Tapu Koko from this format impacting sleep, as Tapu Koko is, after all, completely immune to sleep for 5 turns by virtue of its automatic electric terrain, Tapu Koko being as popular as it is may be whats holding back sleep from being a massive problem of the future and while I'm in no way saying it isn't a disgustingly powerful Pokemon who deserves to be suspected, it leaving the format may cause sleep to be even more of an issue than it already is, as it would encourage further sleep usage for RNG based wins.

-Sleep CAN backfire, and it doesn't beat every matchup-
While sleep does turn matches into an RNG fest, the roll of the dice CAN work in your favor, if your Pokemon decides to wake up first turn it can put the Pokemon who tried to sleep you in an awful situation more times than not and allow for a stressful victory on your end. Furthermore, sleep users (barring Whimsicott) don't usually have priority to their sleep, so often times a scarfer or naturally faster Pokemon can defeat the sleeper or taunt them to prevent the sleep from going off, namely scarf Haxorus, Greninja, Whimsicott, Scarf Garchomp and others (however, this is hugely match-up dependent and set dependent, therefore not making this a strong point in the defense of sleep by any means.).
---
Again, I don't yet have any opinion on sleep and I am in no way trying to convince anyone of anything, to ban or not to ban, but I do feel that the implications of a sleep ban and the repercussions on sleep by getting rid of Tapu Koko at least deserve to be mentioned at least.

(Apologies if these points are a bit on the nit-picky side, or if I seem a little uneducated on the subject. I also apologize if this makes me seem like I support Sleep to stay, again, I have no opinion, I just wanted to get some points out that I hadn't seen brought up much.)
 
but i think electrium z ban on koko not the mon itself would be the most balancing move whilst koko completely gone would be ok too just n
Like I dont know about you guys but this i feel would not do very much, koko could instead run electric seed and actually just be even more tanky. It would definitely make it "more balanced," but it doesnt eliminate the main problem i feel with koko is (its ability to just live everything and adapt to every situation)
 

ZeroPlasmaFist

Banned deucer.
Sorry about the one-liner.

Friendly reminder that the ones who mention complexity in this thread are not council members. As far as I've seen no council member has mentioned we don't like complexity, so if you have a complex idea no point in not bringing it up
erm, i can't remember where, but somewhere in the resources thread, you yourself mentioned that the council don't like complex bans, when somebody asked 'Why couldn't we just have stopped jirachi holding choice scarf.' So yes we do have the right to say that, unless the council openly change their mind.
Apologies for the one-liner and my non-specifity (however you spell that)
 

DEG

Heh.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
Osra's definition of uncompetive/unhealthy should be taken into consideration as to why sleep fit in this category. I've also seen a lot of arguments based on consistency regarding what we're banning.

There's a clean line between Tapu Koko and Sleep-Inducing moves, same line that also existed between Z-users and accuracy reducing moves. In my opinion, the philosophy is consistent. We're banning Tapu Koko for being broken with Z-moves and not Z-moves as a whole because only user is broken with them. Meanwhile Sleep as a whole is uncompetitive/unhealthy and not a single user. What I mean by that it's not the Sleep abuser that is broken but it's sleep inducing moves as a whole, just like Accuracy-reducing moves.

small post to clear that consistency thing up.
 

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
I was writing a post defending sleep, it was a very long and hard to understand one. But I deleted all of it because I realized I can get away with a short post saying exactly what bothers me about the ban sleep reasoning.

Your reasoning is mostly good
There are a few huge holes in your reasoning (Osra DEG I'll come for you guys later), but most of what you're saying makes sense.

But one thing you haven't explained to me
What, in your eyes, justifies banning sleep inducing moves, rather than banning the unhealthy abusers?
Even Osra herself based a big part of her reasoning on Jumpluff alone and then proceeded to call for a ban on sleep as a whole. I would like to see answers.

I.) Skill - the subjective metric we use to judge player worth in competitive Pokemon.
  • Team Building Skill - the part of skill that is involved in the preparation for a battle
    • Assessing and Dealing with Threats
    • Building Towards a Strategy (or Strategies)
    • Creativity / - You can afford to be creative with the Pokemon that are faster than 110 Spe, at least.
Not all sleep users have 110 base speed. In fact: Of all the viable sleep users, only 3 have a speed stat of over 75, one of which is faster than base 110 so it's not really relevant for this point (Vivillon, Jumpluff and Gengar. Whimsicott can be counted, but grasswhistle on it has only 11% usage).

By focusing on 110+ or lose (which many pro-ban users do) you're essentially preparing for 2 Pokémon. In my eyes that's no better than using Metagross's base 110 speed as a reason to justify banning all steel types.
Okay that last sentence may have been a little over the top

~Mez
 

DEG

Heh.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
We're not arguing that sleep is unhealthy on 2 Pokemon, we're saying that sleep is unhealthy in general. Sleep fits perfectly in the criteria as uncompetitive and unhealthy. Sleep takes away the opponent possibility of moving, attacking, restoring HP, anything while the sleep abuser can easily take advantage of that free turn to either boost its offense, defense or just try to OHKO the opponent.

There's some points that we should underline,

1) Sleep makes the abuser broken/unhealthy and, and it's not the user that makes sleep broken. This was seen in both Perish Song and Accuracy reducing moves. Plus, Koko makes Z on him broken and it's not Z that is broken/unhealthy..

2) Comparing 1v1 to 6v6, there's something called Sleep Clause so your opponent Pokemon doesn't just put your whole team to sleep and win, well guess what in 1v1 that only one Pokemon that can be put to sleep iz your whole team.

3) I'm not going to ban snorlax, jumpluff, mega swampert and other abusers just to keep sleep. Sleep is unhealthy down from its root, it was always unhealthy ever since generation 6.

4) There's actually 0 argument that justify the presence of sleep bar consistency which shouldn't even be a question, we banned Perish Song not Meloetta and Azumarill, we banned Accuracy-reducing moves not mud slap users because the mechanic or move is uncompetitive, flawed, unhealthy in 1v1. We banned Jirachi yes, cause it's the ONLY abuser, you can take away Togekiss if you want for the sake of consistency doesn't change the fact that that sleep should be banned.

5) uhh, I don't think Speed even plays a role in Sleep, Snorlax which is the best abuser is one of the slowest Pokemon in the metagame. I'm also stretching on the fact that sleep as a WHOLE is uncompetitive and not only on the Pokemon that are popular. Sleep easily takes away skill which is a big part on what is competitive, it takes it out in two ways, sleep abuser is playing with a low risk high reward move and not even thinking about his next move, and the player against has no other chance but to pray for a wake up. It also takes away freedom, both teambuilding freedom by forcing users to run specific sleep counters like Substitute and in-game freedom as the player against sleep can only watch his screen and admire his sleeping Pokemon. This whole point makes sleep uncompetitive.

I'm seriously waiting on people to even explain to me what makes sleep competitive and not unhealthy cause I've seriously seen none.
 
Last edited:

Rosa

Terrible Tyrant
is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
I was writing a post defending sleep, it was a very long and hard to understand one. But I deleted all of it because I realized I can get away with a short post saying exactly what bothers me about the ban sleep reasoning.

Your reasoning is mostly good
There are a few huge holes in your reasoning (Osra DEG I'll come for you guys later), but most of what you're saying makes sense.

But one thing you haven't explained to me
What, in your eyes, justifies banning sleep inducing moves, rather than banning the unhealthy abusers?
Even Osra herself based a big part of her reasoning on Jumpluff alone and then proceeded to call for a ban on sleep as a whole. I would like to see answers.


Not all sleep users have 110 base speed. In fact: Of all the viable sleep users, only 3 have a speed stat of over 75, one of which is faster than base 110 so it's not really relevant for this point (Vivillon, Jumpluff and Gengar. Whimsicott can be counted, but grasswhistle on it has only 11% usage).

By focusing on 110+ or lose (which many pro-ban users do) you're essentially preparing for 2 Pokémon. In my eyes that's no better than using Metagross's base 110 speed as a reason to justify banning all steel types.
Okay that last sentence may have been a little over the top

~Mez
Let me clear my throat-
Ahem-
Cottonee/Whimsicott
Sceptile/Mega
Shaymin

Sawsbuck
Carnivine
Roserade

Azumarill
Meloetta

Yanma(Compoundeyes)
Yanmega
Politoed
Poliwrath
Persian
Mew
Gengar
Gardevoir
Gallade
Crobat
Exeggutor/A

Carnivine
Exeggutor/A
Jumpluff
Lilligant
Roserade
Venomoth
Venusaur
Victreebel
Vivillon

Jynx
Smeargle

Breloom
Smeargle

Camerupt-Mega
Magcargo
Relicanth
Torkoal
Ursaring
Walrein
Blastoise/Mega
Slowbro/Mega
Slowking
Snorlax
Swampert
Slurpuff

Now no more "ban abusers" talk, please
All these Pokemon are capable of using Sleep either for the sake of acting as a speed trap where they spam sleep against anything slower than them, or for bulking hits and hoping that their sleep lasts long enough for them to win, which is done through varying means, based on each mon, typically just a turn or two extra after the guaranteed first turn of sleep.
Not all of these mons are going to be overwhelmingly good, but they don't need to be, since the argument for their case is not how good they are, rather how often they can force wins on matchups where they really shouldn't have had a chance at winning otherwise, due to the RNG-enforcing nature of Sleep.

I will admit that most sleep users do require a higher level of thought to use than just mindlessly clicking Iron Head, but at the end of the day, thoughtful RNG and mindless RNG both still qualify as RNG and thus, in the interest of making the metagame as competitive as we possibly can, should be banned.

Also, s/o Yanma for being rad but uncompetitive

Yanma @ Leftovers
Ability: Compound Eyes
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Substitute
- Defog
- Shadow Ball
 

The Immortal

is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
Hello 1v1 community. The 1v1 council will be implementing a rotating council of four members that will have equal vote as the permanent council for suspect tests. Before we begin the next suspect test, we are opening applications for the rotating council. The members will be chosen from people who actively play, post in this metagame thread and discuss topics in the live chats both on PS and Discord. It also helps to be a good and respectable member of the community. If you would like to apply to be a member of the rotating council, post here with brief reasoning of why you deserve to be chosen. You may mention any ladder/tournament success as well.
 
Let me clear my throat-
Ahem-
Cottonee/Whimsicott
Sceptile/Mega
Shaymin

Sawsbuck
Carnivine
Roserade

Azumarill
Meloetta

Yanma(Compoundeyes)
Yanmega
Politoed
Poliwrath
Persian
Mew
Gengar
Gardevoir
Gallade
Crobat
Exeggutor/A

Carnivine
Exeggutor/A
Jumpluff
Lilligant
Roserade
Venomoth
Venusaur
Victreebel
Vivillon

Jynx
Smeargle

Breloom
Smeargle

Camerupt-Mega
Magcargo
Relicanth
Torkoal
Ursaring
Walrein
Blastoise/Mega
Slowbro/Mega
Slowking
Snorlax
Swampert
Slurpuff

Now no more "ban abusers" talk, please
All these Pokemon are capable of using Sleep either for the sake of acting as a speed trap where they spam sleep against anything slower than them, or for bulking hits and hoping that their sleep lasts long enough for them to win, which is done through varying means, based on each mon, typically just a turn or two extra after the guaranteed first turn of sleep.
Not all of these mons are going to be overwhelmingly good, but they don't need to be, since the argument for their case is not how good they are, rather how often they can force wins on matchups where they really shouldn't have had a chance at winning otherwise, due to the RNG-enforcing nature of Sleep.

I will admit that most sleep users do require a higher level of thought to use than just mindlessly clicking Iron Head, but at the end of the day, thoughtful RNG and mindless RNG both still qualify as RNG and thus, in the interest of making the metagame as competitive as we possibly can, should be banned.

Also, s/o Yanma for being rad but uncompetitive

Yanma @ Leftovers
Ability: Compound Eyes
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hypnosis
- Substitute
- Defog
- Shadow Ball
Yanma is fun to use. Trolled Whalecheng with it and won. I ran Wide Lens tho lol
 

dom

Banned deucer.
heres something to think about: it's pretty clear zmoves aren't going anywhere. just users like koko. people say zmoves are a mechanic just like megas, but why would we ban a whole fuckin status when 1 (one) user is problematic. no jumpluff isnt broken nor uncompetitive, yes, swampert sucks ass. stats from here:
| 44 | Snorlax | 1.68813% | 8516 | 1.746% | 3122 | 3.911% |
(already rly fuckin low)
| 77 | Jumpluff | 0.81038% | 2977 | 0.611% | 884 | 1.107% |
| 61 | Swampert-Mega | 1.16662% | 5923 | 1.215% | 2050 | 2.568% |

in order of viability. i'm pretty amazed on how low lax usage is but whatever. jumpluff isn't problematic because #1 it has absurdly low usage, #2 it almost never cheeses wins, and #3 it's stupidly easy to prepare for when building. it isnt a normal resist with a 1/3 of winning chance, you just use a koko or whatever faster mon / grass / mon with recovery. and why do people act like pert is this a+ rank god, it kinda sucks. sleep, by this usage, is a fuckin unproblem, with none of the users breaking 2% usage. there are bigger fish to catch than banning a whole status nothing above 2% usage uses

edit: from this usage: (higher ladder)
| 32 | Snorlax | 2.54885% | 8516 | 1.746% | 3122 | 3.911% |
| 77 | Jumpluff | 0.81038% | 2977 | 0.611% | 884 | 1.107% |
| 72 | Swampert-Mega | 0.84342% | 5923 | 1.215% | 2050 | 2.568% |
 
Last edited:

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Hello 1v1 community. The 1v1 council will be implementing a rotating council of four members that will have equal vote as the permanent council for suspect tests. Before we begin the next suspect test, we are opening applications for the rotating council. The members will be chosen from people who actively play, post in this metagame thread and discuss topics in the live chats both on PS and Discord. It also helps to be a good and respectable member of the community. If you would like to apply to be a member of the rotating council, post here with brief reasoning of why you deserve to be chosen. You may mention any ladder/tournament success as well.
If someone is good enough for council why would they be rotated out, and why aren't they council already?
 

The Immortal

is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Simulator Administratoris a Top Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Community Leaderis a Programmeris a Community Contributoris a Live Chat Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Other Metas Leader
If someone is good enough for council why would they be rotated out, and why aren't they council already?
Rotating council does not have the same authority as the permanent council. If you're not on the permanent council but get picked for the rotating council, you probably fell short in one of our expectations; something which can be overlooked in this position. Off course, being on the rotating council and fulfilling your obligations to the best of your ability would be a good reflection and could lead to you being selected for a future permanent spot.
 

Rumplestiltskin

I will rain lels all over you and you will drown in them
Rotating council does not have the same authority as the permanent council. If you're not on the permanent council but get picked for the rotating council, you probably fell short in one of our expectations; something which can be overlooked in this position. Off course, being on the rotating council and fulfilling your obligations to the best of your ability would be a good reflection and could lead to you being selected for a future permanent spot.
I see, and what are the criteria for this position?
 
Solving the Actual Problem or Why does nobody care about addressing this?

When serious discussion regarding bans occurs in this thread, the main result I see is folks spinning their wheels in attempting to explain what is ban-worthy or not ban-worthy. The problem here is we do not have clearly defined criteria for how to shape the 1v1 Metagame. The point of this post is to share my personal criteria for bans in an effort to inspire discussion that establishes clear criteria for all of us to utilize. I will then apply my criteria to a Pokemon I am totally neutral on - Tapu Koko - to determine where I fall in the discussion of this hot topic mon.

My personal criteria revolves around the idea of a perfect 1v1 team. To me, a perfect 1v1 team has a combination of 3 mons that reliably defeats every mon in the meta. In order to reach this goal, each mon would have to defeat approximately 1/3 of the meta. A mon that could beat more than 1/3 of the meta would pull greater weight than necessary for creating a perfect team. My ban philosophy is if a Pokemon can reliably beat (call it 75%-80% of the time) over 1/3 of mons in the meta with a single set, it is banworthy.

Issues with this philosophy:
  • What counts as reliably? I said 75%-80%. This is still not definitive and should be a single number. Also, what kind of sets on the opposing mon count? This is a more challenging question that I do not have an answer for.
  • What counts as a mon in the Meta? Ideally, the Viability Rankings would define this. However, there are some clear issues with the VR and I have my own personal list of 60 mons that I believe one can reasonably expect to encounter. This also makes the 1/3 measurement easier - if something beats >20 mons, it is broken.
I believe it is the responsibility of the Council over all else to answer some of these questions regarding how big is the meta and other clear lines they can create to define the ban philosophy. If your response post is regarding how dumb I am and how bad my philosophy is, then please share yours so we can compile ideas for the council to utilize.

Into the Poo Lab

Here is the set we will utilize - credit to MaceMaster:
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost


Here is the list of 60 and the short answer results of the match up
Charizard-X: Loses to willow
Charizard-Y: Win
Gyarados-Mega: Win
Tapu Koko: N/A
Mimikyu: Win
Metagross-Mega: Win
Lopunny: not reliable enough to count as win
Dragonite: Win
Tapu Lele: Win
Aggron-Mega: Lose
Mawile-Mega: Win
Landorus-T: Lose
Genesect: Lose to scarf modest Hyper Beam
Aegislash: not reliable enough to count as win
Diancie-Mega: Win
Pinsir-Mega: Win
Zygod: Lose
Blacephalon: Win
Naganadel: Lose
Archeops: Win
Blaziken-Mega: Win
Tapu Fini: Win
Porygon-Z: Lose to scarf
Jumpluff: Win
Slowbro-Mega: Win
Venusaur-Mega: Lose
Snorlax: Win
Tyranitar: Lose
Donphan: Lose
Magnezone: Lose
Crustle: Win
Golem: Lose
Sawk: Win
Chansey: Win
Sableye-Mega: not reliable enough to count as win
Magearna: Win
Greninja: Lose
Heracross-Mega: Win
Swampert-Mega: Lose
Celesteela: Win
Meloetta: Win
Primarina: Win
Mew: Win
Camerupt-Mega: Lose
Altaria-Mega: Lose
Terrakion: Win
Volcanion: Win
Garchomp: Lose
Medicham-Mega: Win
Kartana: Lose
Alakazam-Mega: Lose
Heatran: Win
Keldeo: Win
Kommo-O: Win
Gardevoir-Mega: Win
Pheromosa: Win
Gengar-Mega: Lose
Blastoise-Mega: Win
Pidgeot-Mega: Win
Latios: Lose
Thundurus-T: Lose


Result is: Reliably wins 35/60 matchups listed. Credit to Wrath of Alakazam & Gyffyrd for going through match ups with me.
Blame them if any are wrong


This is a lot scarier than I anticipated my findings to be. However, it does seem believable as the room response to Koko is generally just use a ground mon or Venusaur. The results indicate I could create my perfect 1v1 team with this Tapu Koko set plus 2 more Pokemon that only have to beat 25/60 threats - about 13 each which is not very challenging.

Please establish a clear ban philosophy Council members, and then promptly ban Tapu Koko.

-right after you ban Sleep
 

Felucia

formerly UnleashOurPassion
is a Battle Simulator Driver
My personal criteria revolves around the idea of a perfect 1v1 team. To me, a perfect 1v1 team has a combination of 3 mons that reliably defeats every mon in the meta. In order to reach this goal, each mon would have to defeat approximately 1/3 of the meta. A mon that could beat more than 1/3 of the meta would pull greater weight than necessary for creating a perfect team. My ban philosophy is if a Pokemon can reliably beat (call it 75%-80% of the time) over 1/3 of mons in the meta with a single set, it is banworthy.
This is wrong and I'll tell you why.

Try building a "perfect team" and you'll find not all 3 mons beat 1/3 of the meta.
Why? Because if you take 2 mons that beat exactly 1/3 of the metagame, you'll need to find a third Pokémon that beats exactly 1/3 of the metagame, that's roughly 50 specific individual Pokémon you'll need to beat with one Pokémon.

"Perfect teams" usually have 2 mons that beat 40-60% of the metagame individually, but overlap. Then the last mon is something weirdly specific that beats everything you lost to.

Also some Pokémon that defeat over 1/3 of the meta with a single set:

Durant
Primarina
Koko
Fini
Lele
Venusaur
Jumpluff
Landorus
Landorus-Therian
Gyarados-Mega
Garchomp

Gyarados
Ampharos-Mega
Garchomp-Mega
Delphox
Togedemaru

I wouldn't be surprised if even Gloom and Sealeo could pull it off. #BanSealeo
 
Last edited:

ayedan

Andre Iguodala of 1v1
Hey guys, ur favorite aidan (still) here.
Todays topic is sleep.
I understand all the troubles with sleep like u "need to run sub or taunt or ohko etc." I have used sleep on an alt called aidan is testing and used sleep from 1000 and seen how high i can get with it and its effectiveness. I ended up reaching 1550 but had trouble with many games with sub taunt, etc. This made me think harder and strategize what i should do turn 1 and instead of yawn, protect first 2 turns. I think sleep is an legit strat that while yes, can be uncompetitive actually requires thought to work instead of yawn + protect turn 1 and 2. Im sure Fertile Crescent can confirm this as I have seen a bunch of his games in which, he had to actually think when using snorlax and how u need to do a turn 100% correctly or else u will lose. You can have hax and get a 3 turn sleep but, getting turn 1 and 2 sleeps are common and can be beaten with speed inducing moves aka jumpluff vs flame charge char x/y. And taunt/sub with snorlax and the many other yawn users.
This is a short post bcz yeah mobile. I hope I got some point across somehow and yeah, argue about this if u want, i probably missed a few points.

Well see ya guys,
ur favorite aidan
 
Hey guys, ur favorite aidan (still) here.
Todays topic is sleep.
I understand all the troubles with sleep like u "need to run sub or taunt or ohko etc." I have used sleep on an alt called aidan is testing and used sleep from 1000 and seen how high i can get with it and its effectiveness. I ended up reaching 1550 but had trouble with many games with sub taunt, etc. This made me think harder and strategize what i should do turn 1 and instead of yawn, protect first 2 turns. I think sleep is an legit strat that while yes, can be uncompetitive actually requires thought to work instead of yawn + protect turn 1 and 2. Im sure Fertile Crescent can confirm this as I have seen a bunch of his games in which, he had to actually think when using snorlax and how u need to do a turn 100% correctly or else u will lose. You can have hax and get a 3 turn sleep but, getting turn 1 and 2 sleeps are common and can be beaten with speed inducing moves aka jumpluff vs flame charge char x/y. And taunt/sub with snorlax and the many other yawn users.
This is a short post bcz yeah mobile. I hope I got some point across somehow and yeah, argue about this if u want, i probably missed a few points.

Well see ya guys,
ur favorite aidan
Snorlax loses to physical attackers with Substitute most of the time.It's one of the strategies that counter it.On the other hand,Taunt requires prediction from both sides,and as such it cannot be used as an argument.
Regardless,the problem isn't just Snorlax.Any pokemon with access to a sleep inducing moves can throw it into its moveset in order to grab some RNG-based wins it shouldn't be able to otherwise,much like accuracy lowering moves with which yes,Deoxys-Defense was the prime abuser,similarly to how Snorlax is the prime sleep abuser (sidenote:Deoxys-Defense is banned),but just like now,there were many semi viable strategys that relied on RNG to get wins with accuracy lowering moves like Mud Slap Ampharos-Mega and many more.(sidenote #2:Was Mega Ampharos unreleased at the point? If so I'll edit with another example)
Nevertheless,sleep is extremely uncompetitive and doesn't usually require prediction
 

DEG

Heh.
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
I put up a survey on Sunday asking about various things about 1v1 just to know what the community and fellow staff want from me as a TL, and as a RO. I'm talking about myself but I get a lot of shit when it comes to dealing with my community and my room over little things. I've received several reports saying that we're too lax in the room and that I can't handle my community. Most importantly, since 1v1 got even more famous on Smogon and between other users I've also got lot of shit about the metagame and lot of questions specially about the council. We're //I// am hearing a lot about that the leaders do not have the metagame knowledge to lead it. I'm going to speak for myself and say that I do not really need to invite the whole room during my laddering sessions, but there's a lot of users/friends from lsf that have seen me ladder on various occasions. My first 1v1 tour was Seasonal and I progressed and I'm proud about where I reached in a metagame that I don't seem to enjoy as much as last gen. I would have loved to join other tournaments such as WC/PL/LT and Classic. I joined classic and lost to hax, during WC I was so busy that I couldn't even check on Smogon or PS! And I've hosted LT and PL so me joining a lot of tours to prove myself isn't going to really work out, I'd rather be hosting and make sure that everything is run smoothly than to play.

There's lot of misunderstanding about being a RO and TL. They don't really have much time playing like the rest of you but they still play. We put a lot of times in creating a great metagame, lot of times in regulating room policy, metagame policy and make sure that everything runs perfectly for the community's enjoyment. Now, I'm not saying that we're being bombarded with complaints but there's many. I appreciate your criticism and that's why I opened this survey for criticism about various thing in 1v1.

Now another point is that, outsiders aren't taking us serious as competitive. "omg it's just rps xDD", "omg there's no skills involved", are things I get and how do we even playing that game as competitive, there's an opinion I sadly can't change. You have to play 1v1 and understand it as a whole concept to really comprehend that it's competitive. And for people saying it's fun and not competitive, when a metagame reaches the balance between competitive and fun this is where it's really a great metagame. Now I'm not saying 1v1 is a great metagame and there's still lot to be done but these two factors are in, there's fun in 1v1 and there's competitivity in 1v1. There's also outsider opinions saying that the 1v1 community is to say it softly chaotic, and that's a point I'm going to address.

Without further words, I'm going to share with you the survey results that had 75 responses, so thank you all.

I - About the tournament circuit.

a) Favorite Tournament in the circuit.

1524684048939.png


As seen above the most favorite tournament is 1v1 Premier League followed closely by the World Cup of 1v1. This shows that the majority of the playerbase is more into team tournaments. 1v1PL was first probably because it's the most recent tournament and it's being hosted on Smogon rather than Discord like the last World Cup, plus not being region locked is also good. World Cup probably got less votes because it was long ago and only oldies that joined it would vote for it. Opposed to last year, the tournament circuit will be following the schedule below;
Winter - 1v1 Classic
Spring - 1v1 Premier League
Summer - 1v1 Ladder Tournament
Fall / Autumn - World cup 1v1
+1v1 Seasonals

Both the 1v1 Premier League and 1v1 Ladder Tournament (and seasonals) will be hosted on Smogon. This is will allow a single tournament, and a team-based tournament to get enough exposure and easier hosting. Meanwhile the World Cup of 1v1 and 1v1 Classic will be hosted on 1v1boards, it won't get as much exposures but people on the discord will be notified about the start which means that all users that are interested in 1v1 and its tours will receive the notification. Reason we can't host all of them on Smogon is because we're under OM subforum wing and they also have, as a whole entity, a lot of tournaments and projects other than 1v1.

b) Changes about the tournament circuit.

People been asking about more old gens to be implemented or to have more tournaments. We have a pretty tight schedule so I'm not sure if we can fit big tours in-between but we can probably make some fun tournaments in cooling-time on the 1v1boards, I'm ready to approve ideas if I get PM'd by the general idea and who is going to host. Secondly, about including more old gens in the tournament circuit, this is something I and other tournament hosts will decide when times come, old gens can be mostly added to Classic and World Cup, for PL adding BW seems possible if we get enough support. We actually had plans in including a BW slot instead of a third SM but general opinion between managers wasn't in favor of that due to the small playerbase.

We will watch closely the old gens project done by Yung Dramps and co and we will see how active it is and how much will the old gens get and we will move accordingly.

I also received other changes in tournaments being hosted, such as basing 1v1LT on GXE and not ELO, adding 2v2 Doubles to our tournaments, asking TDs help to make decisions, splitting Europe in World cup, removing UU from PL, adding 1v1 OMs and more... we will take these into consideration but no promises.


II - About the room

A) About Room activities.

1524684996610.png


a) Question about favorite room activity.

We asked our userbase which activity they enjoy the most in the room and they picked fun tournaments. I understand the reasoning behind this, laddering and other SM 1v1 tournaments can be stressful so having some fun would make 1v1 room so much better. We used to host a lot of these in the past but recently they seem to have died, so I urge all room staff to host more and more of these they will do no harm, except in the middle of discussions. I realized that ever since we stopped these fun tournaments the tension in the room has grown by a large margin and we get more and more fights. Now I'm not saying that it's only because of that and I'll address room tension/fight later on.

Monthly Official Championship came second because there's some competitivity without bothering signing-up and stuff so I see that both aspects of 1v1, competitive and fun are winning. Team Tours and Community Create-A-Team came last and I predicted the result since not a lot of users used to join them back in the days and when we host CCAT nowadays there's also not a lot of people that are interested. Team Tours I can understand the fact that it has been a long time and people might have forgotten that or that it takes lot of times but I'll make sure that we host them once every week or two. About CCAT; maybe it's because they aren't led properly or people get bored easily or they aren't given enough exposure on Smogon/1v1Boards/Room but I'll try some things and see how they turn out.

We also have a new championship being cooked by we're waiting for the right time to release it, we're stressed atm and there's lot of things to do before releasing it, maybe we can free the testing version in summer.

b) Changes in room activities.

The answers I got were mostly the same and revolved around the idea that we should host of more these fun tournaments because clearly people seem to enjoy them and we haven't been hosting them a lot, so I reassure you that we will be hosting more of them. Second, most popular answer was adding more Official Tournaments. We made a room poll and as room staff we are discussing about it, probably next month we're increasing the # of tours to either 3 or 4 per day, there's lot of considerations before taking the decision firstly, we're worried if we have enough staff to cover all these tournaments and second if we have enough users that will join the tournaments. We will discuss that and will come back to you. I also received opinions asking for more team tours and we will also work on that.

B) About shitposters

1524685997754.png

1524686091332.png




Results were pretty 50/50 which means that it depends on which staff is online. There's some staff that are strict against shitposters and some others that aren't. As RO I want less shitposting in the room, we are trying to be taken seriously by other users and specially by authorities on PS! We will be limiting shitposting as much as we can. That doesn't mean that we still won't be cool with the community or allowing other fun conversations outside 1v1. I tell my staff to always be lax on discussion, there's really some times where there's really nothing to discuss in 1v1 and other rooms in general, but if a users ask for help we shall stop durza off-topic discussions and get back at 1v1. Also if the conversations drift for a lot of times away from 1v1 you shall also get back to discussing 1v1. Staff role isn't only to make sure that everything runs smoothly in the community but to ensure a better communication between both the community and staff, and to make the 1v1 room and relaxing / great place to join.

C) About changes in the room.

Oh boyy, there's a lot, I mean A LOT of complaints concerning the room especially FROM THE COMMUNITY TO THE COMMUNITY. More than 75% of the form responses were saying about how toxic the community and how they aren't kind to newer players. This is something that should be taken seriously and this is why I'm implementing a new policy about strict auth. I will not tolerate anymore serious trashtalking, insults (note serious) and these kinds to other users in the room and especially not shitting on newer 1v1 players. We have already blacklisted a user that would only do this in the room and I'm not afraid to do it to other users. The 1v1 room should always be a happy place to be, somewhere where you can be integrated to the community easily, somewhere where people don't feel the need to pray before posting something in the room. This is something that has been bothering me for such a long time and I won't allow it to happen. We, as a community, are one entity that should like eachother and thrive to make the room and the metagame a better place. With you fighting and bashing eachothers how do you even want other people to take us seriously or to make people join the 1v1 room. Funny that people that do that are the people that complain about people not taking us seriously or say that we need more users. Newer players are to be respected and taught the 1v1 metagame, we were all a beginner at one point and the fact they are even making an effort in learning or have the courage to ask in chat about a set or anything like that mean that they should feel at home and should be helped, who knows maybe one day they will become better than you. I'm not going to name users but I, as a RO, will be taking this very seriously and will notify all staff about this.

Other complaints is that we should get more room staff. To be honest, YOU make the room staff and not us. We do not create room staff, we find new staff. If you want more room staff you better step your game up and become an active user in the room and on forums, the more you do, the more we notice you and promote you to voice then from there you can climb up the ranks (No we do not promote friends, lol this is dumb). All staff are expected a certain degree of activity, general knowledge about the metagame and the will to help us moderate the room, that's why you have to prove that you have all of that in you before we even consider you. We are always looking through room logs and the forum so don't say that we don't notice you. We have already listed criteria about what we look in a voice so check it out here.

About other stuff demanded such as more 1v1 guides and stuff, just know that we are working really hard on that, we won't spoil anything but we're working on something.

III - About the 1v1boards

a) About Analysis

1524687206486.png

1524687222555.png


We actually had analysis on Smogon and they were one of the most active from OMs but we no longer have that and decided to use 1v1boards as alternative. People also made a discord channel saying that they support 1v1 analysis on Smogon without knowing that we can't move them to Smogon that easily. We have to prove that we are active enough and care about these analysis that's why we need to be more active on the boards regarding these. As shown by the poll there's a good bunch of users that are interesting in the help that these analysis bring (see yes as a reader) but that's the complete opposite for writing them. I don't know who is supposed to write them for you guys to read them. If you want 1v1 analysis to be a thing you have to help us, I'm not asking you to write 5+ but at least 1, it won't take much effort nor time if you really know the Pokemon. If you take 1 you give other writers less and less job which is always good. If you want 1v1 to be able to reach new heights you have to really help us out and not spectate. I'm waiting for new writers, it may sound like hard work but it really is fun when you try it out.

b) About projects

1524688195397.png


1524688255912.png


Projects on the 1v1board is always something that I wanted to try. Projects gets the community involved in different ways. There's some users that do not like writing analysis nor talking a lot in the room, they prefer short informative posts in fun threads. I have a lot of projects in mind but I'm afraid they will all be for nothing and they won't even see activity but as the second question showed 84% of the people that took part of the form would join. I'm going to start a test with the two most voted projects being Break My Team and Next Best Thing on the 1v1boards and if they get enough activity we could probably apply for them to be hosted on the OM subforum while hosting others on the boards like longer CCATs and Good Duos. I hope that you guys would join them and make it an enjoyable experience.

c) Changes and opinions on boards.

I'm going to start by addressing some points raised about the 1v1boards indirectly. The 1v1boards shouldn't be more dominant than Smogon nor equal as Smogon. The 1v1boards is a testing ground for various things. First, as a new community inside a large community we just can't host random projects that will die after a week or two, we need to get through the first step to move on to the second step. The 1v1boards isn't just a testing grounds for projects but a testing ground for 1v1 analysis as mentioned above, we need to prove our worth, activity, and our will to create more resources for 1v1. The 1v1boards is also somewhere where we host other tournaments that cannot be done on Smogon which is better than hosting it on Discord.

Now about people saying it's ugly and they get lost in it, we will work it out and try doing something like fixing the colors and putting forums with specific names and purposes otherwise I don't think there's anything else we can do, you need to find the motivation to post on the board and make 1v1 move forward and to higher grounds because the motivation won't come and find you.

IV - About the 1v1 metagame

A) About 1v1 old gens and OMs.

a) About preferences

1524689189922.png


Outside of SM people seem to like everything that has to do with old gens especially ORAS since it was the most recent gens and there's still a big part of its userbase that still play. Other than that we have 1v1 UU and Monotype tying. Both of these 1v1OMs will get exposure if you guys like them especially 1v1 UU as seen in the 1v1PL. The 1v1UU is working on resources and other things so the future looks promising for it. 1v1 UU will always be part of our official tournament circuit I'm positive but for Monotype I'll see what I can do, but for now it has no place in official tournament circuits same as other popular ones such as Anything Goes, AAA, and STABmons.

1524689396147.png


The majority of people don't seem to be playing old gens but the most liked old gen is generation 5 and I think it has the most chance to be integrated in the next 1v1PL and it is probably going to stay in the World cup of 1v1. We will also be hosting more old gens tournaments in the room, and probably on boards with the help of the people that lead old gens so stay tuned.

b) Future of 1v1 Old gens and OMs in the tournament circuit.

1524689597897.png


There's a solid 44% that want all other 1v1 metagames to be included in the tournament circuit. This doesn't seem feasible but we can try our best to handpick the most popular ones and see if they can fit somewhere. Maybe we can create another tournament between two tournaments that include 1v1 OMs because they are the hardest to integrate in our tournament circuit. Meanwhile for Old Gens 1v1, they aren't as hard to put in the tournament circuit because there's two tours about old gens, 1v1 Classic and World Cup meaning that we can fit them in the tournament circuit but only if people show interest in playing them. As said, I will be keeping a close eye on the old gens thread in the RoA subforum and in room and discord to see if enough people care about old gens. No promises because hosts will be taking about that before the tournament's start so if you want old gens in the tournament circuit you have to prove us that you're capable of delivering competitive battles.

c) Adding other 1v1OMs to the pool.

Yes, there are plans about adding more 1v1OMs to the current pool but we have to make sure that the ones we have now are balanced, and are interesting. We will drop every 1v1OM that won't see much activity in tour joins or discussions and we will leave the place to other suggest 1v1OMs here such as Mix-and-Mega 1v1, No-Z, and LC.

B) About 1v1 resources.

1524689990270.png


The majority seems fine with the current 1v1 resources and how frequently they are updated. We have a VR council that works a lot to bring you the latest version of the VR with minimal error while other resources don't need as much patching as VR.

The only complaints I seem to get is about Sample Teams which aren't updated often and aren't beginner friendly. I will be reviewing the Sample Teams in the ST chat we have and we will hopefully get them updated more frequently, just remember that we accept teams from everyone in the community and we vote on which we should include or not so don't be shy and send us your best team if you want it to be featured in the sample teams section.

Other resources that people want are a Good Duo resources that I suggested as room project, a role compendium which is feasible and I'll try getting people to work on it, and resources to the various 1v1 OMs. Such resources are hard to create because we have a lot of 1v1 OMs but I'll try to give the most popular ones, see: 1v1 UU, resources with the help of other people.

C) About the current 1v1 metagame.

I don't have pie charts anymore except for the GXE part and I'll respond to popular reponses in the form indirectly while talking about each question.

a) About the 1v1 suspect test philosophy.

Sure we are no longer hosting suspect tests but it's a philosophy that us as council should follow to decide what is broken and what is not, I didn't get good changes other than some complaints about the current system which gives no suspect tests. Just for heads up we are currently working and revising the 1v1 suspect test philosophy we already voted on some changes but there's some more to be done so this should be updated soon tm, and by soon tm I mean really soon and not deg's soon.

b) About the most unhealthy elements in 1v1.

People have voted in order Tapu Koko, Sleep, then Z-moves. These things will be dealt with soon enough, if you think that something other shall be banned post here. The council is always looking for options and community input so please post!

c) About future suspect tests and new GXE requirements.

1524690573625.png


I have to agree with the majority here the perfect GXE for suspect tests shall be between 78 and 77, nothing more, nothing less. 79 is hard to obtain when everyone on ladder is below that while anything lower than 77 is too easy. Also people have been complaining about why this question if there's no longer suspect tests. All I have to say that I doubt 1v1 will stay permanently in this council leadership for a long time and I think the people must have a bigger say in this, they might not ready now but will definitely will be later. Even if fellow council members are against suspect tests coming back later, I will strongly disagree with them and convice them to have suspect tests in the future.

d) What would you change if you were a 1v1 council member?

People either said to abolish council voting, to be more friendly to newcomers and create more and better resources, make the community more involved in 1v1 decisions, and remove the toxicity in the 1v1 room.

Lot have been talked about the council decision and I won't start it here again. About newcomers and room toxicity, we as room staff and contributors will take a step forward and create better resources and a better room for everyone, give us some time and observe we shall make 1v1 great again. About the community being involved more in decisions, we are trying to do so without the intervention of suspect tests for the being, we started that by implementing the rotational council and we surely will find out other ways to keep the community involved somehow. Other than that, the 1v1 thread discussion is always open to the community's opinion about what they think is broken or not, we read everything and take into consideration everything. Also, I think and I'll be pushing for the re-implementation of suspect test in the future.


As a closing remark, I shall thank everyone that participated in this survey this opened my eyes on many things. There's a lot more opinions that I didn't include here but that doesn't mean I didn't read them or took them into consideration but they either were minor or easily fixable and don't need a post about them. I would like to thank the 1v1 community and room staff for all their hard work and contributions and how they pushed 1v1 into a completely different and better way. Every single one of you can PM me anytime if you want help about 1v1 or not, if you want to ask me how to play a bigger role in 1v1, or if you want to chitchat and shitpost in my discord PMs feel free to do so. Man, we came a long way from being the same 5 people discussing on the smogon thread, look where we at now, let's get it!


shoutout everyone.
stay roffing.
rof.
 

Attachments

Last edited:
In Deg's post the UU resources were mentioned and as I'm kinda working on those I'll just put in a few words.
The current viability rankings can be found both at this link:
These rankings are in no way final for as I have been building teams I have realized some Pokemon are much greater threats that I imagined. Will update them this weekend or sooner.
As for sample teams I have a few prepared but as PL is still going on I don't think my team would be happy if I posted the teams I will be using in following weeks on the forums for everyone to see. I am constantly building and if I get enough teams to keep up with my own needs and to submit some at that time.
Stay tuned for more updates and good job DEG on such an amazing post!
 
I’d like to point out that it would be very possible to complex ban Curse+Mimikyu from 1v1 without actually banning Curse and getting DEG banned from Smogon, since I guess complex bans are illegal.

1. Mimikyu has 4 egg moves. Curse, Grudge, Nightmare, and Destiny Bond.

2. Because in-game you can only catch Mimikyu-Totem, it can’t learn egg moves.

3. If you ban regular Mimikyu and leave Totem, you basically complex ban Mimikyu + Curse, since the other 3 egg moves are useless in 1v1.

4. I’m not sure this is any better than a complex ban, I just think that avoiding a complex ban is the reason it’s not banned already. Mimikyu without Curse is a pretty cool Pokémon.

Speaking of uncompetitive, you think sleep is uncompetitive?
Try Thunder Wave Curse Mimikyu.

Something I have to run a counter to on every team?
Curse Mimikyu.

Completely reliant on out-speeding, 50/50s, and hax?
Curse Mimikyu.

It’s like the worst parts of sleep and Perish Song in one terrible set.
 
Last edited:

ryyjyywyy

Survivor Champion
I’d like to point out that it would be very possible to complex ban Curse+Mimikyu from 1v1 without actually banning Curse and getting DEG banned from Smogon, since I guess complex bans are illegal.

1. Mimikyu has 4 egg moves. Curse, Grudge, Nightmare, and Destiny Bond.

2. Because in-game you can only catch Mimikyu-Totem, it can’t learn egg moves.

3. If you ban regular Mimikyu and leave Totem, you basically complex ban Mimikyu + Curse, since the other 3 egg moves are useless in 1v1.

4. I’m not sure this is any better than just a complex ban, I just think that avoiding a complex ban is the reason it’s not banned already. Mimikyu without Curse is a pretty cool Pokémon.

Speaking of uncompetitive, you think sleep is uncompetitive?
Try Thunder Wave Curse Mimikyu.

Something I have to run a counter to on every team?
Curse Mimikyu.

Completely reliant on out-speeding, 50/50s, and hax?
Curse Mimikyu.

It’s like the worst parts of sleep and Perish Song in one terrible set.
In SM you can catch mimikyu plain

https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/1v1-resources.3592842/page-14#post-7769283 ALSO LIKE THIS
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread (Users: 1, Guests: 1)

Top