Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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Like all bans/unbans we do. I don't mind as long as they are done fairly and publicly.

As for should we ban koko. IDK. I always enjoy team building. And think a lot of people in the past have faced something that beats their team or is annoying and cried about it. Saying how its unfair and broken. Just because they like their team and the lose 3-0 to something. Now...Koko on the other hand was fine with its special/physical sets until the roost/set up sets came to be. recently I've been running Nature's Madness on a more bulkier Koko that beats Elo Bandit's "beat any koko" metagross set.

Having to predict what set of Koko & its bulk is a pain. Which make it a case to be banned. With it's speed you can't taunt it. So you have to adapt. I've run kecleon to beat koko. sorry freddy And komala. which can tank a hit from both z move koko's but in turn has to run sleep talk eq as its only moves.

so there's 3 areas i look at to decide if a pokemon is broken. more or less depending on the case.
1) The Amount of Diverse Sets. Not just add 20 def or something. Like how many viable sets can be run. Koko has a lot.
2) What do these sets beat. If these sets don't beat the meta pokemon is it ban worthy? If Koko who's weak to ground can beat Ground type pokemon like Donphan, constantly. Then it's a problem.
3) How many people use it. Now this doesn't mean if no one uses it, it's fine. It more or less means do you have to run Koko. No...but it does feel that way to some people.

Do I think it should be banned?

well people will always complain about something being broken or ban worthy. Does us banning Koko mean its banned for good? No. But I like looking ahead. We have a new pokemon that's electric and faster than Koko. so I see it being a more like the koko we had before. No set up. So sure. I would vote for a Koko Ban.
 

Mageic Master

Banned deucer.
Like all bans/unbans we do. I don't mind as long as they are done fairly and publicly.

As for should we ban koko. IDK. I always enjoy team building. And think a lot of people in the past have faced something that beats their team or is annoying and cried about it. Saying how its unfair and broken. Just because they like their team and the lose 3-0 to something. Now...Koko on the other hand was fine with its special/physical sets until the roost/set up sets came to be. recently I've been running Nature's Madness on a more bulkier Koko that beats Elo Bandit's "beat any koko" metagross set.

Having to predict what set of Koko & its bulk is a pain. Which make it a case to be banned. With it's speed you can't taunt it. So you have to adapt. I've run kecleon to beat koko. sorry freddy And komala. which can tank a hit from both z move koko's but in turn has to run sleep talk eq as its only moves.

so there's 3 areas i look at to decide if a pokemon is broken. more or less depending on the case.
1) The Amount of Diverse Sets. Not just add 20 def or something. Like how many viable sets can be run. Koko has a lot.
2) What do these sets beat. If these sets don't beat the meta pokemon is it ban worthy? If Koko who's weak to ground can beat Ground type pokemon like Donphan, constantly. Then it's a problem.
3) How many people use it. Now this doesn't mean if no one uses it, it's fine. It more or less means do you have to run Koko. No...but it does feel that way to some people.

Do I think it should be banned?

well people will always complain about something being broken or ban worthy. Does us banning Koko mean its banned for good? No. But I like looking ahead. We have a new pokemon that's electric and faster than Koko. so I see it being a more like the koko we had before. No set up. So sure. I would vote for a Koko Ban.
lol. I'm just going to second this guy's reasons and vote BAN.
Oh wow! Finally the suspect we have been looking forward to.... TAPU KOKO

My stand: Ban Tapu Koko

Reasoning: Tapu Koko has been some of the meta-defining, overcentralising Pokemon for over a year now. It has Electric Terrain, an ability which boosts Tapu Koko's Electric-type attacks by 50%, and which also makes it immune to sleep for the time the terrain is active on the field. It also gets access to Charge, which doubles the power of Electric-type move used in the next turn. Its sky-high Speed stat of 130 also facilitates faster set up of Charge to wreck about > 50% of the Pokemon. In USUM, it got access to Iron Defense, which increases the Defense by 2 stages which, along with proper investment, allows Tapu Koko to tank about any of the counters to its non-invested sets, like Mega Charizard X, Mega Metagross, and YawnLax. It also gets access to Taunt to shut down stall Pokemon. A combination of all these factors leads to its counters being limited to one of Ground-type Pokemon like Landorus-Therian, Donphan, Golem, very bulky Grass-type Pokemon like Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Electric attack neutralisers like Thundurus-Therian, Mega Sceptile, or faster nukes like scarf Genesect, Meloetta, Porygon-Z, and specs Pheromosa.

A more detailed explanation of what it beats:
The sets are marked as '1' and '2' , if
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Timid Nature
- Wild Charge / Thunderbolt
- Taunt
- Charge
- Substitute

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Def / 92 Spe
Timid Nature / Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Thunderbolt / Wild Charge
Bulkier variants of 2 exists, but this is the only bulky Tapu Koko I know, so......
If I mention
  • '1' near a Pokemon, set 1 reliably beats it.
  • '2' near a Pokemon, set 2 reliably beats it.
  • 'b' near a Pokemon, both sets reliably beat it.
  • 'r' near a Pokemon, a niche set like FairiumZ, Choice Specs beats it
  • 'n' near a Pokemon, no set beats it.
  • 1p means physical variant of 1, 1s means special variant of 1, 2p means physical variant of 2, and 2s means special variant of 2.
And if i mention (f) in brackets, it's a flimsy, uncertain, unreliable matchup
S Rank :
Mega Gyarados - b

Tapu Koko - b(f)

[1/2]
A+ Rank :

Mega Charizard X - 2(f)

Dragonite - 2

Magearna - 1 and 2(f)

Metagross Mega - 2

Mimikyu - 2

[3/5]
A Rank:

Mega Charizard Y - b

Landorus-Therian - r (specs HP ice)

Snorlax
  1. YawnLax - 2p
  2. CurseLax - 1p


Tapu Lele - 2

Zygarde-Complete - r(Fairium Z)

[3/5]
A- Rank
:
Aegislash - b

Genesect - b(f) [loses to scarf Hyper Beam]

Lopunny Mega - 2(f)

Magnezone - n

Mawile Mega - 2

Porygon-Z - b(f) [loses to Choice Scarf]

Slowbro-Mega - b

Mega Venusaur - n

[4/8]
B+ Rank:

Mega Aggron - 2s

Blaziken (-Mega) - 2

Donphan - r (ESeed Reflect)

Gardevoir Mega - b

Golem - r (ESeed Reflect)

Greninja - b(f) [loses to scarf]

Jumpluff - b

Naganadel - n

Pinsir Mega - b

Primarina - b

Tapu Fini - b

[6/11]

B Rank:
Altaria Mega - r(Fairium Z/specs)

Chansey -1p, 2p

Ferrothorn - n

Garchomp - r(f) [loses to ScarfChomp, and wins only if Koko is Fairium Z/specs]

Heatran - b

Heracross Mega - 2

Kartana - 2s

Meloetta - 2p(f) [loses to Scarf]]

Mew - 1(f), 2(f) [uninvested sets lose to Mewnium Z Mew, invested ses lose to stall Mew]

Necrozma - 2

Sableye Mega - 2(f)

Sawk - 2

Tyranitar Mega - 2

[8/13]

B- Rank:
Blastoise Mega - b

Blissey - 1p, 2p(f)

Buzzwole - 2s

Celesteela - b

Crustle - 2s(f)

Diancie Mega - b

Durant - b

Gengar Mega - 1(f)

Hoopa Unbound - 2p(f)

Kommo-o - 1s, 2s(f)

Swampert Mega - r(specs Grass Knot)

Togekiss - b

Whimsicott - 1(f) [loses if Whimsicott has Taunt]

[7/13]

C+ Rank:
Archeops - 2

Avalugg - 2p, 2s(f) [based on predictions on Mirror Coat]

Camerupt Mega - n

Carracosta - 2

Excadrill - n

Gallade Mega - b

Latios Mega - 1(f), 2(f)

Lucario Mega - b

Marowak-Alola - n

Medicham Mega - b

Pheromosa - n

Porygon2 - 1, 2(f)

Scizor Mega - b

Tapu Bulu - n

Terrakion - b

Umbreon - 1p

Victini - 2

Volcarona - 1p, 2p

[10/18]

C Rank:
Blacephalon - b(f) [loses if Scarf Blacephalon]

Deoxys Speed - n

Entei - 2s

Garchomp Mega - r[Fairium Z]

Haxorus - 2, r[Fairium Z}

Hydreigon - r[Fairium, specs]

Infernape - b

Keldeo - b

Landorus - r(f) [Specs, loses if Landorus is Scarf]

Latias Mega - r[Fairium, specs]

Nihilego - 1p, 2p

Ninetails-Alola - b

Pidgeot Mega - b

Relicanth - 2

Thundurus Therian - n

[7/15]

C- Rank:
Hitmonlee - 2

Manectric Mega - n

Pyukumuku - b

Quagsire - r(specs Grass Knot)

Rhyperior - n

Serperior - n

Salazzle - 1

Skarmory - b

Stakataka - 1s(f), 2 [Uninvested Koko loses to AV Stakataka]

Suicune - b

[5/10]

D Rank

Abomasnow Mega - n

Alakazam Mega - 2

Aron - 1

Azumarill - b

Barbaracle - b

Clefable - 1

Dusclops - 1

Sceptile (-Mega) - n

Slaking - 2

Smeargle - b

Stunfisk - n

Type: Null - 1

Vivillon - b

Volcanion - b

[11/14]


The only ranks where one of the two popular sets do not KO more than 50% of the rank is C, and in C rank, there are many rare, niche sets which can deal with the Pokemon which can tank it.... The point here was to show how much of the VR either one of the two famous Koko sets beats, which is (65/109) Pokemon, a good number, excluding niche sets which if included leaves only 17/109 Pokemon from the VR which hard counters Tapu Koko, less than a fifth. This makes it really hard to counter Tapu Koko, and poses a restriction in teambuilder wherein you either choose one or more of these 17 Pokemon or you die to Koko.



Replying to counter-arguments:
1) How is Tapu Koko banworthy without Electrium Z?

A: Without the Electrium Z, Tapu Koko still has access to Charge, Iron Defense, Roost and dual STABs, which is what pushed it to the banworthy side. Nonetheless, there has been a small userbase using Electric Seed Reflect Tapu Koko, and they seem to have had moderate success in the ladder if their word is anything to go by. This means there are sets without the use of Electrium Z, which also is good (though not as good as the Electrium Z set). This is why I feel banning Electrium Z is not the solution.

2) Why can we not ban Z-Moves?

A: Banning Z Moves is not for this discussion, but nonetheless, this is an argument thrown often. The updated ban philosophy states that only if 4 or more Pokemon are broken coz of a concept will the concept be banned. And in the present metagame, nothing else which uses ZMoves is banworthy other than Tapu Koko. Also, Z Move standpoint is a seperate issue from the Tapu Koko discussion, though they seem to be related. This is why I think Z Move ban will not make Tapu Koko less broken.


In conclusion, BAN TAPU KOKO!
And this guys and everybody else's. All the reasons have already been mentioned, so there's nothing more to say
 
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Generation 6 / ORAS 1v1
Banning Assist, Beat up & other party affecting moves


So recently like 10 minutes ago. I was thinking. What can I do that's stupid. Assist does not work in Gen 7 1v1 due to only 1 pokemon being allowed to battle. But in our Officials, we have ORAS. Now the way we have it coded is that you bring 3 and forfeit after you lose. But with assist you can bring a smergle for ex. with any move you want due to its sketch ability. Now because of this pokemon like Meowstic who don't get Taunt now have a prankster Taunt. Pokemon who don't have sleep can get access to Spore. And can even get access to moves that are exclusive to unreleased pokemon. Like the move Light of Ruin. 140 base Fairy move.

After talking to deg and him not wanting me to break his meta. Is all for the ban even saying, [22:29:00] +deg: Then u get Dqd.
So sadly we won't have an Infernape with Spore or Geomancy


[22:53:28] +deg: Xd
 
Last edited:
Hey Guys, Mubs Here. If you don't know me I'm a top 200 ladder player. I'm am here to add to the topic Of

Banning Tapu Koko.

Most reasoning has been put already, but I wanna say something. Tapu Koko is a mon that can function many different sets that can beat so much of the meta. The Charge Z-Thunder Set multiplied by STAB, and Multiplied again by Electric Terrain results in a extraordinarily powerful attack that can beat a lot of pokemons without any investment
For example:
+2 0 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (185 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Charizard-Mega-X in Electric Terrain: 327-384 (110.1 - 129.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Zard X, a Pokemon that would mostly beat it, drops.

It Also Functions Counters to it Checks so well it has only a few indefinite counters, mostly very powerful scarf ground types, like garchomp and excadrill.

The set:
Tapu Koko @ Electric Seed
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 180 HP / 252 Def / 20 SpA / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Thunderbolt
- Grass Knot / Hidden Power [Ice]

Imma leave the calculations and say goodbye. Have a nice day folks!

252+ Atk Donphan Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. +3 180 HP / 252+ Def Electric Seed Tapu Koko: 198-234 (60.7 - 71.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Zygarde Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. +3 180 HP / 252+ Def Electric Seed Tapu Koko: 174-206 (53.3 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Tectonic Rage (180 BP) vs. +3 180 HP / 252+ Def Electric Seed Tapu Koko: 204-242 (62.5 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. +3 180 HP / 252+ Def Electric Seed Tapu Koko: 158-186 (48.4 - 57%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO

176 Atk Protean Greninja Acid Downpour (190 BP) vs. +3 180 HP / 252+ Def Electric Seed Tapu Koko: 152-180 (46.6 - 55.2%) -- 66.8% chance to 2HKO had to run an unset xd

+2 252+ Atk Crustle Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. +3 180 HP / 252+ Def Electric Seed Tapu Koko: 178-211 (54.6 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
 
Well, hello there. 1st of all, as im new in the site i shall introduce my self: name is Zero, im at the 30rd place on 1v1 ladder.
That been said lets talk about koko, even if there isn´ t much too say yet. The fact tha every single team in 1v1 must run a mon which entire purpose is *trying*(bc koko may be using an alternative set that overcomes your check, which is in my oppinion one of koko´s stronger tools, its unpredictability) to check koko shows how strong this mon is. As many of you already said, the entire 1v1 meta is currently based around koko, on which mons does or doesn´t he defeat. In conclusion, yes, koko should be banned
 
I think attidude and many others have already voiced opinions similar to mine regarding the decisions to banning koko.

It can run both blitz-nuke offensive, and bulky boosting sets, countering many hard counters to it (Rip donphan, golem and co.). Could have missed some, but the only pure counters which does well against other pokemon too that I saw playing this past week was scarf porygon-Z and Kentari's scarf melo-until i came across what seemed like a spcially bulky charge-koko which tanked it.

Being a meta- pokemon like gyarados is one thing, but tapu koko with it's strong speed, terrain, and boosting capabilities is too strong in my opinion.
Final Vote: BAN
 

DEG

peace
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

The suspect test on Tapu Koko has ended, as we had 9 council members Tapu Koko needed at least 6 BAN votes to get the 60% super majority and be banned. With 7/9 BAN votes (77%) Tapu Koko is now BANNED from 1v1.

Ban Koko
- Electrium-Z nuke is very powerful and practically unbeatable without a resist.
- Koko has a viable ground lure set that can beat the majority of its counters. With HP Ice or Acrobatics for offense, and Reflect/Iron Defense/Charge (pick 2) for defense, and Electric Seed as an item, this set can perform well against almost all supposed counters (Example: Golem, Tapu Bulu and even Landorus-T), as well as doing reasonably against the overall metagame.
- The only true counters I can think of are: Venusaur, Naganadel, Porygon-Z

These 3 points together push Koko to unreasonable limits and justify a ban
Do not ban I guess. It's not hard to slap an electric resist on your team just like you'd put a psychic resist on it for lele.
Ban
I'll just give you an excerpt from an upcoming companion resource to my sets paste. "s" denotes standard while "o" denotes non-standard. After the slash, the specialties of the set are vaguely stated. What's after the optional second slash tells what each option beats.

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost
s/Mega Metagross, Mimikyu

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Charge
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
s/Mega Metagross, Mimikyu/Thunder: Z power | Thunderbolt: post-Z accuracy

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Charge
- Taunt / Quick Attack
- Substitute
s//Jolly: Greninja, Tapu Koko | Adamant: Improved rolls vs Magearna, Snorlax, Tapu Lele | Quick Attack: Improves Tapu Koko matchup

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Charge
- Substitute
- Taunt
s//Modest: Improved rolls vs Magearna, msc. | Timid: Grenina, Tapu Koko

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Iron Defense
- Roost
o/Donphan, Golem, ~Landorus-T

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam
o/Landorus-T, Garchomp, Mega Swampert, Mega Altaria

Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Charge / Calm Mind
- Substitute / Taunt
o/Zygarde/Charge: Boosts Thunderbolt more | Calm Mind: Boosts both attacks

Tapu Koko @ Electric Seed
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 244 HP / 72 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
o/Donphan, Golem, ~Landorus-T, misc.

Tapu Koko @ Electric Seed
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 240 HP / 4 Def / 168 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
o/Special walling, Mega Metagross

Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 16 HP / 244 Atk / 148 SpD / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge
- Mirror Move
- Substitute
o/Mega Venusaur, Z-Mirror Move

The significance of all of that: 10 distinct sets, approximately three counters (Scarf Porygon-Z, Scarf Garchomp, Naganadel), overwhelmingly high viability/win %
My state is still *Ban* tapu koko
heres why
1. as i was told a balancing complex ban in a sense of removing electrium z only off of koko/zmoves off of koko isnt possible , hence why i will not think about this balancing option and keep it out of the picture
2. There is an array of overthe top koko sets we are all fairly familiar with now. notably raimons bulky physical koko and a few others like a normal nuke spA koko and UOPs eseed koko. I dont think i need to put calc examples and other stuff in here as weve all seen them over and over. good pointers in that topic are coming from forum posts of Attidude and CallMeJoker in my opinion.
3. All of those sets make it too viable in a sense that it can practically run what it want . it can run a electric pure nuke , a bulky staller with a charge nuke button that can pretty much outtank every other thing that is not high dmg poison or high dmg ground andeven then it can deal with a few of them suprisingly well thanks to the fact that it has insane speed together with its other stats similar to imo a deos who runs stat buff stall. but opposite of deos it can run a simply nuke button which deos cant that easily
4. It can run too many items to counter its supposed "counters" as for example the eseed hp ice set vs most ground users, or flynium z for venusaur/plants and even some fairium variants.
5. i wanna argue in a similar fashion as i think it was with kyub. koko has too many hgih quality variable sets that beat a huge part of the meta without having to vary the set a lot and it can even beat its counters by swapping sets (at least most of them)
When it comes to banning a mon for being broken, I think it's best we look at the mon's main sets that define it for what it is, rather than all the insanely niche sets that it can use to beat a few things that its main set/s cannot. That said, there will be exceptions to this way of thought, such as how Icium Kyurem-Black became mainstream, despite being highly comparable and often inferior to the lesser-used Specs sets. Since Koko has no alternative sets that even come close to being used as much as Electrium, the main aspect of Tapu Koko I'll be taking into account is the variety of ways in which people use Electrium.

Electrium Koko itself is essentially just a blank slate with which you can make particular EV spreads and movesets to beat an insanely large variety of Pokemon, relevant and otherwise. With Electrium alone, the main variety of counters to Koko are effectively just Immunities or Resistances, plus a handful of Scarfed attackers. That said, even a handful of Resisting Pokemon are still unable to handle Tapu Koko, as they are unable to OHKO before it sets up Charge and wipes them out with a double damage Z-Move. Due to the raw power that Tapu Koko is unloading by turn 1, just about every would-be check or counter ends up relying more on type advantage to beat Koko than by either their own stats or outplaying it. The exceptions to this are only limited to Pokemon capable of outspeeding and safely OHKO-ing it, namely Scarf Porygon-Z and Lopunny-Mega (which can be bulked); most other sets that reliably outspeed Koko are typically Scarves on Pokemon that have better items to be using, or Sceptile and Beedrill.

Because of how Tapu Koko is able to disregard a vast majority of all Pokemon through simply not being resisted or outsped, I believe it should be BANNED from the 1v1 metagame.
I vote no ban. Pro-ban arguments for Tapu Koko are deeply divided between whether it’s broken because it’s versatile or because a single Electrium Z set is overwhelmingly powerful. Considering its capabilities in comparison to past Pokemon we’ve banned, I find that it falls short in both respects — and I don’t believe we can ban it for a little or Column A and a little of Column B here, which I guess is what this comes down to. The versatility claims fall short when you consider both the prevalence of the alleged non-Electrium sets (i.e. virtually nonexistent — anecdotal evidence about their usefulness really falls flat given actual usage, meaning that they don’t necessarily have to be taken into account when constructing valid counters for Tapu Koko a lot of the time, imo) and the immense sacrifices they have to make in terms of targets they miss out on. Fairium Z, for instance, can take out the occasional Dragon-type counter, but loses out on Charge as a form of boosting and still doesn’t take out any of the most prominent checks to Tapu Koko in the current metagame. It really pales in comparison to the alternative sets of something like Kyurem-B, which all took care of a wide range of core threats (and actually received usage), while tacking on quite a few additional targets in the process. Therefore, I agree with Osra that the claim that we should really be focused on is whether Electrium sets are overpowering on their own.

The fact of the matter is that never before have we banned something that loses to the sheer number of Pokemon to which Tapu Koko does. I consider being usually required to counter based on type advantage (which is something we have to do throughout 1v1, by the way, and not actually a criterion for brokenness) perfectly legitimate and not overly centralizing given the great disparity of roles and type combinations present under the umbrella of, say, “Ground-type Pokemon.” While I’m aware that there are certain spreads capable of taking care of certain Ground-types, I still believe that these relinquish a lot of core functionality in the process. I guess, and I’ve heard in the 1v1 room, that the closest comparison to Tapu Koko in terms of Pokemon that we actually have banned was Marshadow — one really good set with a diverse array of possible moves — but I don’t see the two as comparable otherwise. Marshadow boasted easily accessible, ultra-powerful, unresisted coverage, plus an attack with a unique effect that singlehandedly invalidated most stall. As difficult as Charge + Iron Defense sets are to counter, I don’t see Tapu Koko on that same level.
We should consider the sets that are actually used by Tapu Koko. Even excluding the versatility argument where it can run counter sets for its counters, Tapu Koko is overpowered in the 1v1 metagame. Electric Terrain, Electrium Z, Charge, Wild Charge/Thunder, and two utility moves allow it to beat a large number of Pokemon. Furthermore, its high speed and attacking power allows it to invest EVs in bulk. So, I am voting ban on Tapu Koko.
I'll make this short and sweet. Tapu Koko is basically half Kyurem-Black, half Deoxys Defense: access to obscene power, the ability to tank a large variety of moves thanks to Iron Defense and z-Charge, and a presence that has forced the metagame to revolve around what beats Tapu Koko and what beats Tapu Koko's counters. In SM, Koko was a nifty electric type Pz-equivalent with access to Charge, but in general not out of hand; USUM, with the introduction of the Iron Defense move tutor, gave Koko the tools it needed to be overpowered. Naturally it has weaknesses; naturally, it can take measures to beat those weaknesses. Every Pokemon in the meta can do that. Just because a Pokemon or a mechanic has a weakness, doesn't automatically mean that the Pokemon/mechanic is balanced and/or competitive. The reason Koko is a problem is because it can take the best of both worlds of hyper offense and stall, allowing it to beat a considerable amount of the metagame with one basic idea (electric attack, ID, charge, 4th move).

In summary, the meta is shifting/has shifted to revolve around what beats Tapu Koko, in one way or another, and Koko's amount of options lets it beat a large portion of the meta. I vote Ban on Tapu Koko.
BAN
I'll just c/p koko reasoning since I wrote that

Tapu Koko beats more than 3/4 of the metagame with one set, that's even more than Kyurem-Black with the 5 sets. Tapu Koko typing is great and makes it weak both Ground, and Poison-type Pokemon. The former are limited to Golem and Donphan at most, with some uses such as Garchomp and Swampert while the latter are limited to Mega Venusaur and Naganadel. Other Pokemon with coverage moves such as Dragonite and Mega Metagross can go against Tapu Koko but with Iron Defense in its pocket there's no way they can beat it. Additionally, Tapu Koko can adjust its sets to defeat Ground-type Pokemon in high competitive plays.

Moreover, people are starting to run sets that you wouldn't see outside of countering Tapu Koko such as Laser Focus Mega Metagross and Scarf Meloetta as noted by Kentari, this is a joke and shows how overcentralizing Tapu Koko is. A pokemon should NOT be overcentralizing in the metagame, specially in 1v1, this, first, limits teambuilding. People are building teams that lose to Koko unless they run its limited counters, and forcing people to run the same Pokemon(s) just to defeat one Pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame. As 1v1 community and leaders our objective is to diversify the metagame, is to make it a healthy place where one should not run specific Pokemon to win against one other specific Pokemon.

Tapu Koko is one of the only Pokemon that can easily (I know Bulk up is a thing but it's only on the physical side) boost both its Defenses and Offenses thanks to Iron Defense and Charge which allows it to pick whatever it likes in matchups. This is a big plus to Tapu Koko and enters in a big portion of what makes it truly broken.

Adding to that, Tapu Koko paired with 2 other Pokemon can cover pretty cleanly 99% of the metagame and force most of the time, if not all the time, 50/50 which is extremely unhealthy for the metagame. It also has high speed so it doesn't have to worry about other Pokemon outspeeding it easily dropping Z-Thunder / Z-Wild Charge / Charge / ID. Speaking of moves, you do not even know if its physical or special which is more absurd.
 
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Mageic Master

Banned deucer.

The suspect test on Tapu Koko has ended, as we had 9 council members Tapu Koko needed at least 6 BAN votes to get the 60% super majority and be banned. With 7/9 BAN votes (77%) Tapu Koko is now BANNED from 1v1.

Ban Koko
- Electrium-Z nuke is very powerful and practically unbeatable without a resist.
- Koko has a viable ground lure set that can beat the majority of its counters. With HP Ice or Acrobatics for offense, and Reflect/Iron Defense/Charge (pick 2) for defense, and Electric Seed as an item, this set can perform well against almost all supposed counters (Example: Golem, Tapu Bulu and even Landorus-T), as well as doing reasonably against the overall metagame.
- The only true counters I can think of are: Venusaur, Naganadel, Porygon-Z

These 3 points together push Koko to unreasonable limits and justify a ban
Do not ban I guess. It's not hard to slap an electric resist on your team just like you'd put a psychic resist on it for lele.
Ban
I'll just give you an excerpt from an upcoming companion resource to my sets paste. "s" denotes standard while "o" denotes non-standard. After the slash, the specialties of the set are vaguely stated. What's after the optional second slash tells what each option beats.

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Wild Charge
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Roost
s/Mega Metagross, Mimikyu

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 248 HP / 164 Def / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Charge
- Thunder / Thunderbolt
s/Mega Metagross, Mimikyu/Thunder: Z power | Thunderbolt: post-Z accuracy

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly / Adamant Nature
- Wild Charge
- Charge
- Taunt / Quick Attack
- Substitute
s//Jolly: Greninja, Tapu Koko | Adamant: Improved rolls vs Magearna, Snorlax, Tapu Lele | Quick Attack: Improves Tapu Koko matchup

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Modest / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunder
- Charge
- Substitute
- Taunt
s//Modest: Improved rolls vs Magearna, msc. | Timid: Grenina, Tapu Koko

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 200 HP / 252 Def / 56 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Iron Defense
- Roost
o/Donphan, Golem, ~Landorus-T

Tapu Koko @ Choice Specs
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Grass Knot
- Dazzling Gleam
o/Landorus-T, Garchomp, Mega Swampert, Mega Altaria

Tapu Koko @ Fairium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 16 HP / 252 SpA / 240 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Dazzling Gleam
- Thunderbolt
- Charge / Calm Mind
- Substitute / Taunt
o/Zygarde/Charge: Boosts Thunderbolt more | Calm Mind: Boosts both attacks

Tapu Koko @ Electric Seed
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 244 HP / 72 Def / 192 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Iron Defense
- Roost
- Hidden Power [Ice]
o/Donphan, Golem, ~Landorus-T, misc.

Tapu Koko @ Electric Seed
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 240 HP / 4 Def / 168 SpD / 96 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Roost
- Iron Defense
- Calm Mind
o/Special walling, Mega Metagross

Tapu Koko @ Flyinium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 16 HP / 244 Atk / 148 SpD / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Brave Bird
- Wild Charge
- Mirror Move
- Substitute
o/Mega Venusaur, Z-Mirror Move

The significance of all of that: 10 distinct sets, approximately three counters (Scarf Porygon-Z, Scarf Garchomp, Naganadel), overwhelmingly high viability/win %
My state is still *Ban* tapu koko
heres why
1. as i was told a balancing complex ban in a sense of removing electrium z only off of koko/zmoves off of koko isnt possible , hence why i will not think about this balancing option and keep it out of the picture
2. There is an array of overthe top koko sets we are all fairly familiar with now. notably raimons bulky physical koko and a few others like a normal nuke spA koko and UOPs eseed koko. I dont think i need to put calc examples and other stuff in here as weve all seen them over and over. good pointers in that topic are coming from forum posts of Attidude and CallMeJoker in my opinion.
3. All of those sets make it too viable in a sense that it can practically run what it want . it can run a electric pure nuke , a bulky staller with a charge nuke button that can pretty much outtank every other thing that is not high dmg poison or high dmg ground andeven then it can deal with a few of them suprisingly well thanks to the fact that it has insane speed together with its other stats similar to imo a deos who runs stat buff stall. but opposite of deos it can run a simply nuke button which deos cant that easily
4. It can run too many items to counter its supposed "counters" as for example the eseed hp ice set vs most ground users, or flynium z for venusaur/plants and even some fairium variants.
5. i wanna argue in a similar fashion as i think it was with kyub. koko has too many hgih quality variable sets that beat a huge part of the meta without having to vary the set a lot and it can even beat its counters by swapping sets (at least most of them)
When it comes to banning a mon for being broken, I think it's best we look at the mon's main sets that define it for what it is, rather than all the insanely niche sets that it can use to beat a few things that its main set/s cannot. That said, there will be exceptions to this way of thought, such as how Icium Kyurem-Black became mainstream, despite being highly comparable and often inferior to the lesser-used Specs sets. Since Koko has no alternative sets that even come close to being used as much as Electrium, the main aspect of Tapu Koko I'll be taking into account is the variety of ways in which people use Electrium.

Electrium Koko itself is essentially just a blank slate with which you can make particular EV spreads and movesets to beat an insanely large variety of Pokemon, relevant and otherwise. With Electrium alone, the main variety of counters to Koko are effectively just Immunities or Resistances, plus a handful of Scarfed attackers. That said, even a handful of Resisting Pokemon are still unable to handle Tapu Koko, as they are unable to OHKO before it sets up Charge and wipes them out with a double damage Z-Move. Due to the raw power that Tapu Koko is unloading by turn 1, just about every would-be check or counter ends up relying more on type advantage to beat Koko than by either their own stats or outplaying it. The exceptions to this are only limited to Pokemon capable of outspeeding and safely OHKO-ing it, namely Scarf Porygon-Z and Lopunny-Mega (which can be bulked); most other sets that reliably outspeed Koko are typically Scarves on Pokemon that have better items to be using, or Sceptile and Beedrill.

Because of how Tapu Koko is able to disregard a vast majority of all Pokemon through simply not being resisted or outsped, I believe it should be BANNED from the 1v1 metagame.
I vote no ban. Pro-ban arguments for Tapu Koko are deeply divided between whether it’s broken because it’s versatile or because a single Electrium Z set is overwhelmingly powerful. Considering its capabilities in comparison to past Pokemon we’ve banned, I find that it falls short in both respects — and I don’t believe we can ban it for a little or Column A and a little of Column B here, which I guess is what this comes down to. The versatility claims fall short when you consider both the prevalence of the alleged non-Electrium sets (i.e. virtually nonexistent — anecdotal evidence about their usefulness really falls flat given actual usage, meaning that they don’t necessarily have to be taken into account when constructing valid counters for Tapu Koko a lot of the time, imo) and the immense sacrifices they have to make in terms of targets they miss out on. Fairium Z, for instance, can take out the occasional Dragon-type counter, but loses out on Charge as a form of boosting and still doesn’t take out any of the most prominent checks to Tapu Koko in the current metagame. It really pales in comparison to the alternative sets of something like Kyurem-B, which all took care of a wide range of core threats (and actually received usage), while tacking on quite a few additional targets in the process. Therefore, I agree with Osra that the claim that we should really be focused on is whether Electrium sets are overpowering on their own.

The fact of the matter is that never before have we banned something that loses to the sheer number of Pokemon to which Tapu Koko does. I consider being usually required to counter based on type advantage (which is something we have to do throughout 1v1, by the way, and not actually a criterion for brokenness) perfectly legitimate and not overly centralizing given the great disparity of roles and type combinations present under the umbrella of, say, “Ground-type Pokemon.” While I’m aware that there are certain spreads capable of taking care of certain Ground-types, I still believe that these relinquish a lot of core functionality in the process. I guess, and I’ve heard in the 1v1 room, that the closest comparison to Tapu Koko in terms of Pokemon that we actually have banned was Marshadow — one really good set with a diverse array of possible moves — but I don’t see the two as comparable otherwise. Marshadow boasted easily accessible, ultra-powerful, unresisted coverage, plus an attack with a unique effect that singlehandedly invalidated most stall. As difficult as Charge + Iron Defense sets are to counter, I don’t see Tapu Koko on that same level.
We should consider the sets that are actually used by Tapu Koko. Even excluding the versatility argument where it can run counter sets for its counters, Tapu Koko is overpowered in the 1v1 metagame. Electric Terrain, Electrium Z, Charge, Wild Charge/Thunder, and two utility moves allow it to beat a large number of Pokemon. Furthermore, its high speed and attacking power allows it to invest EVs in bulk. So, I am voting ban on Tapu Koko.
I'll make this short and sweet. Tapu Koko is basically half Kyurem-Black, half Deoxys Defense: access to obscene power, the ability to tank a large variety of moves thanks to Iron Defense and z-Charge, and a presence that has forced the metagame to revolve around what beats Tapu Koko and what beats Tapu Koko's counters. In SM, Koko was a nifty electric type Pz-equivalent with access to Charge, but in general not out of hand; USUM, with the introduction of the Iron Defense move tutor, gave Koko the tools it needed to be overpowered. Naturally it has weaknesses; naturally, it can take measures to beat those weaknesses. Every Pokemon in the meta can do that. Just because a Pokemon or a mechanic has a weakness, doesn't automatically mean that the Pokemon/mechanic is balanced and/or competitive. The reason Koko is a problem is because it can take the best of both worlds of hyper offense and stall, allowing it to beat a considerable amount of the metagame with one basic idea (electric attack, ID, charge, 4th move).

In summary, the meta is shifting/has shifted to revolve around what beats Tapu Koko, in one way or another, and Koko's amount of options lets it beat a large portion of the meta. I vote Ban on Tapu Koko.
BAN
I'll just c/p koko reasoning since I wrote that

Tapu Koko beats more than 3/4 of the metagame with one set, that's even more than Kyurem-Black with the 5 sets. Tapu Koko typing is great and makes it weak both Ground, and Poison-type Pokemon. The former are limited to Golem and Donphan at most, with some uses such as Garchomp and Swampert while the latter are limited to Mega Venusaur and Naganadel. Other Pokemon with coverage moves such as Dragonite and Mega Metagross can go against Tapu Koko but with Iron Defense in its pocket there's no way they can beat it. Additionally, Tapu Koko can adjust its sets to defeat Ground-type Pokemon in high competitive plays.

Moreover, people are starting to run sets that you wouldn't see outside of countering Tapu Koko such as Laser Focus Mega Metagross and Scarf Meloetta as noted by Kentari, this is a joke and shows how overcentralizing Tapu Koko is. A pokemon should NOT be overcentralizing in the metagame, specially in 1v1, this, first, limits teambuilding. People are building teams that lose to Koko unless they run its limited counters, and forcing people to run the same Pokemon(s) just to defeat one Pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame. As 1v1 community and leaders our objective is to diversify the metagame, is to make it a healthy place where one should not run specific Pokemon to win against one other specific Pokemon.

Tapu Koko is one of the only Pokemon that can easily (I know Bulk up is a thing but it's only on the physical side) boost both its Defenses and Offenses thanks to Iron Defense and Charge which allows it to pick whatever it likes in matchups. This is a big plus to Tapu Koko and enters in a big portion of what makes it truly broken.

Adding to that, Tapu Koko paired with 2 other Pokemon can cover pretty cleanly 99% of the metagame and force most of the time, if not all the time, 50/50 which is extremely unhealthy for the metagame. It also has high speed so it doesn't have to worry about other Pokemon outspeeding it easily dropping Z-Thunder / Z-Wild Charge / Charge / ID. Speaking of moves, you do not even know if its physical or special which is more absurd.
YES THANK GOD. MY WELCOME SHITPOST FOR THIS. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW HAPPY YOU'VE MADE ME WITH ONE POST. I CAN NOW TEAMBUILD WITHOUT KOKO TO WORRY ABOUT. THANK YOU SO MUCH. TI can you code it quickly?
 
...eh yay? but kecleon is a counter so...I guess we talk about sleep bans now. As long as we don't ban rest. I'm fine with sleep ban. :)
To that id simply say , sleep or the concept of it , banning and discussion is a whole different matter as tobanning a pokemon . we have to look indepently at the different mechanics of every sleep move as they work differently, the mechanics to beat them and obviously at the users of them . you cant argue ban all sleep moves like sleepowder grasswhistle etc. just because you dislike yawnlax. we have to there discern further if it is worth banning a simple mon abusing the worst of the sleep moves or if theres simply other sets it can use. cause some people argue ban jumpluff or yawnlax in general whilst those can actually vary their sets. so id personally argue we might wanna consider simply looking at all the sleep moves their usage and the mechanics behind them and from there discern their healthyness and uncompetetiveness for our 1v1 metagame
 

Felucia

The Jank Queen
is a Battle Simulator Driver
TI can you code it quickly?
I'm not TI but I already submitted the code change, should be operational in less than a day. Since I'm an optimistic person I like to think it can be ready in less than an hour

Edit:

[20:29:20] UnleashOurPassion: Could you hotpatch formats for the 1v1 Koko ban?
[20:29:30] UnleashOurPassion: Sorry if I'm bothering you ;;
[20:41:29] ~Zarel: mmk
 
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Nalei

out!
is a Pre-Contributor
Friendly reminder that posts should contain actual content
Joker 1v1 Scraftionite Mageic Master

I'm planning on making a larger post on this later, but some quick thoughts on sleep based on what has been discussed in the room
  • "There's like, no sleep counters" is not a valid argument. You don't try to counter the status of Burns, do you? Of course not, it's a status, be reasonable. You prepare for and beat each sleep user individually. When arguing, keep this in mind.
  • Sleep, whether used for this purpose or not, has the potential to cause uncompetitive scenarios. It also provides valuable niches within the metagame, ie Snorlax, Jumpluff, etc. I'm yet to see any complete argument for either side that doesn't boil down to "positive influences are greater than negative influences" or vice versa. This is what the core of discussion should be about.
  • One idea that I like is only banning low accuracy sleep (Grass Whistle, Sing, Hypnosis, Dark Void). The idea here is that when someone uses Sleep Powder, Yawn, etc, they're using it as a legitimate win condition, but when someone uses any lower accuracy sleep moves, it's impossible to obtain an at all reliable win with them, making them useful only as probably management. Thus, by removing the low accuracy sleep moves, we're removing the most uncompetitive segments of sleep while keeping all of the good stuff.
 
Ok. The Koko Ban is Here. I Would like to post my thoughts.


The Metagame will definitely change. A pokemon that had more usage than that of Mega-Gyarados at a time leaves a huge Footprint. From testing and other sources, I See Pokemon sets like Scarf Meloetta, Laser Focus Metagross, And many others Losing Usage , or Just Ceasing to exist.


There are Also Pokemon that will be better. I See a rise in Tapunium Z Tapu Fini, Snorlax, Mons Outspeed by Tapu koko along with most water, flying and sleep using pokemon.


I Request For the sets posted by macemaster to be updated, and The VRs as well.


Sorry for the double post xd. Have a Nice Day fellow players!
 
First off I'd like to thank dom for his very detailed description of why to not ban koko, was very entertaining. But now for the main topic

Sleep in 1v1
So with the Tapu Koko ban the obvious winners are Gyarados and of course sleep. Now I'm not going to discuss Gyarados as we already know what it looks like in a meta without koko (see any gen 6 replay) but sleep I would like to speak about. Before I start discussing sleep though I would like to put a disclaimer here that I haven't played with yawn/sleep powder/spore/move-that-always-misses recently because I don't like playing games that rely either solely or partially on hax as in the past I find it limits my prediction skill since I would think "I technically can beat all three of those opposing Pokemon with some luck" and click my Jumpluff (or other filler mon that isn't Snorlax because I refuse to use that mon) and promptly lose because I have terrible luck. I also have not played recently against sleep because I don't see anyone on ladder using it while I'm there. View end for that.

So lets get to the Pokemon that use sleep as seen here:

Snorlax✶

Venusaur-Mega★✶

Jumpluff★✶

Gengar-Mega★

Swampert-Mega✦✶

Togekiss✦✶

Whimsicott★✦✶

Camerupt-Mega✦✶

Umbreon✦✶

Ninetales-Alola★✦✶

Relicanth

Stunfisk

Smeargle

★=runs a non 100% sleep move
✦=sleep move is filler to gain matchups
✶=has other viable non-sleep sets
I probably missed some (All the Eeveelutions and others) but all of these have better sets without sleep. The point of this is to show that most of the pokemon that run non 100% sleep moves (not yawn or spore) have other sets of either better or similar viability. This brings us to a new question, are all sleep moves broken or are not all sleep moves made equally?
My conclusion is they are broken. If you're using yawn or a move that can miss, both take the battle out of your hands and take the skill out of the match for both players as they hope for either high or low sleep turns respectfully. Yawn protect in my opinion is even more broken because your opponent falls asleep at the end of the turn meaning they start at 0 turns instead of at 1 like most other moves. This however can also be seen as more skillful and less rng based as it is a 100% chance that this turn will happen and therefore this one turn of the game is skillful. However the rest of the sleep turns are the same luck based system as any sleep. Therefore if any sleep is to be banned I think all sleep should be banned.
In almost any other meta this wouldn't be much of a problem to stay asleep all three turns but in 1v1 where the game lasts those three turns a problem arises. I don't think I have to go much further with this point as its been explained many times on this forum.
Personally as unlucky as I am anything to reduce rng in the game is wonderful in my opinion whether it be sleep, flinching, or Z-Evasion moves (Still not sure why those aren't banned but I don't see them that often so its not terrible)

A quick observation btw, doesn't have anything to do with the post:
Whenever a Pokemon or move has been being discussed on the forums I've noticed that I see it less and less on both ladder and in tournaments. I don't what causes this, noticed it with Deoxys Defense, Kyurem-B, Jirachi, and now sleep. Not koko or Z-god but I thought it was kind of interesting and wanted to point it out.
That's all I really wanted to say so thanks for reading, please don't roast my grammar mistakes I undoubtedly made.
Happy Laddering!
 

dom

Banned deucer.
First off I'd like to thank dom for his very detailed description of why to not ban koko, was very entertaining.
literally @ me next time you fucking bitchboy
Sleep in 1v1
Sleep Pokemon

Snorlax✶

Venusaur-Mega★✶

Jumpluff★✶

Gengar-Mega★

Swampert-Mega✦✶

Togekiss✦✶

Whimsicott★✦✶

Camerupt-Mega✦✶

Umbreon✦✶

Ninetales-Alola★✦✶

Relicanth

Stunfisk

Smeargle
this post is invalid because all of the mons past jumpluff are either a. dogshit b. really shit at using sleep or c. all of the above. the council has agreed that 4 abusers (or 4+) ((idr?)) would make something broken/banworthy. because of this 3 abusers should make sleep not banworthy.
 
Double Post but I'm bored so why not. Plus I thought I've already gotten so much hate for my sleep post why not get more?
So Darkrai is on the room poll and I thought I'd voice my opinions on it. First thing, with sleep Darkrai is 100% broken and should not be unbanned. If we're going to do something with Darkrai it should only be either after or with the banning of sleep from 1v1 as hypnosis grants it KOs it never should have ever.
Lets start with some calcs shall we, the set I'm using is:
Darkrai @ Darkinium Z
Ability: Bad Dreams
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp
- Dark Pulse
- Taunt

You may notice that there is no 3rd move and with darkrai's wide moveset it could be a multitude of different things but I'll get to that later.
★=Darkrai wins against most common or viable sets (no dark pulse flinches factored in)
✦=Darkrai loses (at least 25% of the time)
✶=Mind Games so I'm not even counting them
✹=Darkrai loses against only certain less common sets
Gyarados-Mega ✦
Add turn for Wow
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 117-138 (33.1 - 39%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Darkrai Dark Pulse vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados-Mega: 45-53 (12.7 - 15%) -- possible 5HKO after burn damage
+2 252+ Atk Mold Breaker burned Gyarados-Mega Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 178-210 (63.3 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Charizard-Mega-X ✹★
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 336-396 (113.1 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
To win with Zard you need 252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 88 HP / 208 SpD Charizard-Mega-X: 270-318 (84.6 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Which for some reason I have about 3 sets with enough investment to live so this might be common? Idk i don't use Zard
Dragonite ✶
Mind games galore
252+ Atk Choice Band burned Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 180-212 (64 - 75.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
or
252+ Atk burned Dragonite Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 190-224 (67.6 - 79.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragonite: 294-346 (91 - 107.1%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after burn damage
but if they DD with Dragonium:
+1 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 285-336 (101.4 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Magearna✦
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Magearna: 131-154 (35.9 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
228+ SpA Choice Specs Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 752-888 (267.6 - 316%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0 SpA Magearna Twinkle Tackle (195 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 576-678 (204.9 - 241.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Metagross-Mega★✹
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204 SpD Metagross-Mega: 456-536 (125.2 - 147.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Max speed jolly (no one runs this):
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Hammer Arm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 336-396 (119.5 - 140.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Mimikyu✶
Jesus Christ there are so many possibilities I don't have time to calc them all.
Charizard-Mega-Y✦
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard-Mega-Y: 261-307 (87.8 - 103.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Charizard-Mega-Y Blast Burn vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai in Sun: 466-550 (165.8 - 195.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Small chance but not enough
Landorus-Therian✹
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 100 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 355-418 (103.1 - 121.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
but bulky
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 224 HP / 32 SpD Landorus-Therian: 340-402 (90.6 - 107.2%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
192+ Atk Landorus-Therian Supersonic Skystrike (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 357-421 (127 - 149.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Snorlax✦
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Snorlax: 271-321 (51.8 - 61.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
and then even burned
+6 124+ Atk burned Snorlax Breakneck Blitz (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Darkrai: 594-699 (211.3 - 248.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Tapu Lele
252+ SpA Darkrai Black Hole Eclipse (160 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Tapu Lele: 261-307 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0+ SpA Tapu Lele Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Darkrai: 308-366 (109.6 - 130.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Zygarde-Complete
If someone can do the calcs on this with all the possibilities they're Jesus
Also I'm bored with copy paste so we're going to just post if you win or not
Aegislash★
Genesect✦
Lopunny-Mega✦
Magnezone✦
Mawile-Mega✦
Porygon-Z
Specs/Normalium★
Scarf✦
Slowbro-Mega★
Venusaur-Mega★

So I stopped a bit early but you get the idea, Darkrai isn't as broken as people say it is. In my opinion Darkrai is like a second Mega Gyarados, sure it beats a lot of good stuff but it loses to about that much as well.
If when sleep gets banned I think we should 100% look at Darkrai. I'm not sure yet of my opinion on it which is why I want to hear others and their reasons both ways both with and without sleep being banned.
Thanks for reading and happy laddering!
dom you told me to @ you so there you go
 

Felucia

The Jank Queen
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Reached more than 1800 elo for the first time in forever https://prnt.sc/jitg7l

Figured I'd post my team

Charizard-Mega-X @ Charizardite X
Ability: Tough Claws
EVs: 112 HP / 80 Atk / 252 SpD / 64 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flame Charge
- Outrage
- Flare Blitz
- Belly Drum

Blastoise-Mega @ Blastoisinite
Ability: Mega Launcher
EVs: 60 HP / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
- Fake Out
- Mirror Coat
- Aura Sphere
- Hydro Cannon

Venusaur-Mega @ Venusaurite
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 252 HP / 80 Def / 176 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Leech Seed
- Giga Drain
- Synthesis

Osra
 
oh huh what koko got banned
my thoughts on sleep are enclosed below
so my list of sleep "users" will be those pokemon from osra's list on page 49 that use sleep at least 1/3 of the time, and the "abusers" are those which pass the 1/3 test and are viable imo
btw for all stats I just asked tibot for 1630 stats
Whenever I say mon(base) it means that their mega doesn't use the move enough but the base form does
GRASS WHISTLE:
Users:
Cottonee 80%-ish usage
Sceptile 50%-ish usage, note that mega had less than the required amount of usage (of grass whistle) to show up on the screen

Abusers: call me crazy for questioning this, but are base form sceptile and cottonee really so good? In my humble opinion, no.
0 Abusers

SING:
Users:
0 Users
Abusers:
0 Abusers

HYPNOSIS:
Users:
Yanma(Compoundeyes) a staggering 100% hypnosis usage rate
Gengar(base)
Abusers: once again we are left with a memey LC mon and a base form of a mega evolver. Not exactly a promising crop of pokemon.
0 Abusers

SLEEP POWDER:
Users:
Jumpluff
Lilligant
Venomoth
Venusaur(base)
Vivillon
Abusers: Jumpluff, Venusaur(base), and some things that no one uses. Again, where are the good mons? Jeez, I really thought mega venusaur at least would use it 1/3 of the time.
Jumpluff (woo our first abuser!)

LOVELY KISS:
Users:
0 Users
Abusers:
0 Abusers

SPORE:
Users:
Breloom
Smeargle
Abusers: Smeargle is simply too slow to be good, and breloom simply loses to anything not running 4 attacks.
0 Abusers

YAWN: this should be good
Users: (our biggest crop yet!)
Camerupt-Mega
Relicanth
Torkoal
Ursaring
Walrein
Snorlax
Swampert(mega, but not base)
Abusers:
Snorlax
Swampert-Mega
Camerupt forthelols

TOTAL ABUSERS:
Jumpluff
Snorlax
Swampert-Mega
Camerupt-Mega

ABUSERS THAT ARE USED EVEN 5% OF THE TIME
Literally none. None. Not one of these is used even 5% of the time.
Snorlax at least gets up above 3%, with an astounding 3.7% usage rate.
None of the others even reach 2% usage.
Take what conclusions from that you will, and think on this every time you complain about venusaur mega using sleep so much. (it really doesn't.)
 

Felucia

The Jank Queen
is a Battle Simulator Driver
Take what conclusions from that you will, and think on this every time you complain about venusaur mega using sleep so much. (it really doesn't.)
Would like to add to this that Sleep Powder Mega Venusaur (even if it were to use Sleep Powder) would still not be an abuser

Code:
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
 | Rank | Pokemon            | Usage %   | Raw    | %       | Real   | %       |
 + ---- + ------------------ + --------- + ------ + ------- + ------ + ------- +
 | 1    | Charizard-Mega-X   | 16.73175% | 61865  | 10.182% | 19887  | 19.942% |
 | 2    | Tapu Koko          | 14.40844% | 68469  | 11.268% | 22165  | 22.227% |
 | 3    | Gyarados-Mega      | 13.57828% | 70818  | 11.655% | 21051  | 21.110% |
 | 4    | Mimikyu            | 11.38617% | 52405  |  8.625% | 20121  | 20.177% |
 | 5    | Porygon-Z          |  9.26360% | 64206  | 10.567% | 22666  | 22.729% |
 | 6    | Metagross-Mega     |  8.50767% | 27530  |  4.531% | 8512   |  8.536% |
 | 7    | Magearna           |  7.72144% | 17490  |  2.878% | 6023   |  6.040% |
 | 8    | Zygarde            |  7.02526% | 19869  |  3.270% | 6734   |  6.753% |
 | 9    | Magnezone          |  6.78972% | 28152  |  4.633% | 9734   |  9.761% |
 | 10   | Charizard-Mega-Y   |  6.57317% | 42534  |  7.000% | 12822  | 12.858% |
 | 11   | Landorus-Therian   |  6.24956% | 17455  |  2.873% | 6081   |  6.098% |
 | 12   | Venusaur-Mega      |  5.72756% | 21627  |  3.559% | 7078   |  7.098% |
 | 13   | Lopunny-Mega       |  5.46881% | 53832  |  8.860% | 20306  | 20.363% |
 | 14   | Greninja           |  4.95323% | 37484  |  6.169% | 12227  | 12.261% |
 | 15   | Donphan            |  4.87018% | 21502  |  3.539% | 9146   |  9.171% |
 | 16   | Slowbro-Mega       |  4.78921% | 16292  |  2.681% | 4852   |  4.866% |
 | 17   | Necrozma           |  4.73723% | 10433  |  1.717% | 4215   |  4.227% |
 | 18   | Tapu Lele          |  4.61062% | 14631  |  2.408% | 5097   |  5.111% |
 | 19   | Dragonite          |  4.44942% | 22097  |  3.637% | 8303   |  8.326% |
 | 20   | Mawile-Mega        |  4.35405% | 44612  |  7.342% | 12879  | 12.915% |
 | 21   | Crustle            |  3.90727% | 13712  |  2.257% | 5165   |  5.179% |
 | 22   | Snorlax            |  3.78875% | 15109  |  2.487% | 5566   |  5.582% |
 | 23   | Tapu Fini          |  3.67049% | 14320  |  2.357% | 4682   |  4.695% |
 | 24   | Sableye-Mega       |  3.64619% | 29244  |  4.813% | 8853   |  8.878% |
 | 25   | Kartana            |  3.62169% | 16441  |  2.706% | 5095   |  5.109% |
 | 26   | Kommo-o            |  3.37407% | 8066   |  1.327% | 2879   |  2.887% |
 | 27   | Golem              |  3.30916% | 13195  |  2.172% | 4729   |  4.742% |
 | 28   | Garchomp           |  3.29667% | 14774  |  2.431% | 4819   |  4.832% |
 | 29   | Primarina          |  3.26871% | 6935   |  1.141% | 2617   |  2.624% |
 | 30   | Heatran            |  3.25926% | 10210  |  1.680% | 2974   |  2.982% |
Out of these, the following Pokémon you beat with (Offensive or stall) Sleep Powder Venusaur, that you can't beat with a (pretty fast) Charm/Seed set:
- Hyper Cutter Mawile


Let me know if I missed anything
 

Nalei

out!
is a Pre-Contributor
oh huh what koko got banned
my thoughts on sleep are enclosed below
so my list of sleep "users" will be those pokemon from osra's list on page 49 that use sleep at least 1/3 of the time, and the "abusers" are those which pass the 1/3 test and are viable imo
btw for all stats I just asked tibot for 1630 stats
Whenever I say mon(base) it means that their mega doesn't use the move enough but the base form does
GRASS WHISTLE:
Users:
Cottonee 80%-ish usage
Sceptile 50%-ish usage, note that mega had less than the required amount of usage (of grass whistle) to show up on the screen

Abusers: call me crazy for questioning this, but are base form sceptile and cottonee really so good? In my humble opinion, no.
0 Abusers

SING:
Users:
0 Users
Abusers:
0 Abusers

HYPNOSIS:
Users:
Yanma(Compoundeyes) a staggering 100% hypnosis usage rate
Gengar(base)
Abusers: once again we are left with a memey LC mon and a base form of a mega evolver. Not exactly a promising crop of pokemon.
0 Abusers

SLEEP POWDER:
Users:
Jumpluff
Lilligant
Venomoth
Venusaur(base)
Vivillon
Abusers: Jumpluff, Venusaur(base), and some things that no one uses. Again, where are the good mons? Jeez, I really thought mega venusaur at least would use it 1/3 of the time.
Jumpluff (woo our first abuser!)

LOVELY KISS:
Users:
0 Users
Abusers:
0 Abusers

SPORE:
Users:
Breloom
Smeargle
Abusers: Smeargle is simply too slow to be good, and breloom simply loses to anything not running 4 attacks.
0 Abusers

YAWN: this should be good
Users: (our biggest crop yet!)
Camerupt-Mega
Relicanth
Torkoal
Ursaring
Walrein
Snorlax
Swampert(mega, but not base)
Abusers:
Snorlax
Swampert-Mega
Camerupt forthelols

TOTAL ABUSERS:
Jumpluff
Snorlax
Swampert-Mega
Camerupt-Mega

ABUSERS THAT ARE USED EVEN 5% OF THE TIME
Literally none. None. Not one of these is used even 5% of the time.
Snorlax at least gets up above 3%, with an astounding 3.7% usage rate.
None of the others even reach 2% usage.
Take what conclusions from that you will, and think on this every time you complain about venusaur mega using sleep so much. (it really doesn't.)
Your idea of "user" vs "abuser" seems very arbitrary. Imo, a user is a Pokemon that runs sleep as a method to work towards a viable win condition while an abuser is a mon that runs sleep just to cheese out wins with high unreliability. Everything you called an abuser is a user by my definitions. The only abusers of sleep are Mega Gengar, Mega Sceptile, Sceptile, Whimsicott and Mega Altaria. All of them use inaccurate sleep moves which is why I like the idea of banning only low accuracy sleep.
 
Your idea of "user" vs "abuser" seems very arbitrary. Imo, a user is a Pokemon that runs sleep as a method to work towards a viable win condition while an abuser is a mon that runs sleep just to cheese out wins with high unreliability. Everything you called an abuser is a user by my definitions. The only abusers of sleep are Mega Gengar, Mega Sceptile, Sceptile, Whimsicott and Mega Altaria. All of them use inaccurate sleep moves which is why I like the idea of banning only low accuracy sleep.
I think our definitions of "user" and "abuser" are reversed, as to me an "abuser" is something that not only uses a strategy a lot, but also uses it very well. For example, Jirachi "abused" flinch hax, and Blissey did not.
 
Your idea of "user" vs "abuser" seems very arbitrary. Imo, a user is a Pokemon that runs sleep as a method to work towards a viable win condition while an abuser is a mon that runs sleep just to cheese out wins with high unreliability. Everything you called an abuser is a user by my definitions. The only abusers of sleep are Mega Gengar, Mega Sceptile, Sceptile, Whimsicott and Mega Altaria. All of them use inaccurate sleep moves which is why I like the idea of banning only low accuracy sleep.
I will agree with mace at this point mostly since most of them can and will use sleep towards their method of winning, they dont solely rely on it but most often rely on the sleep if they use those sets hence why i think it is no the sleep users whe should look at but at the mechanics of the sleep moves in general as tehy work differently. we can lump all sleep users / abusers into one post and discuss them as one . they are 100% differebt in how they funcion and achieve wins. also mega altaria and sleep abuser ? are you sure thats the right pokemon ?
or am i missing something here
 
Sleep! I think it's mostly covered here, I can't offer any more factual info. I do think people are trying to define abuse versus use rather poorly, which misdirects the argument. I would offer a better definition of abuser as "a Pokemon that is widely used because of its strength, especially with a specific strategy". This would encompass most broken mons that have been suspect banned (Jirachi, Tapu Koko, KyuB, etc.).

The thing is, according to TGC's research, none of these sleep mons as a group fit this definition, let alone individually.
Jumpluff: 1.80455%
Venusaur-Mega: 4.20335%
Venusaur: 0.02188%
Whimsicott: 1.36783%
Gengar-Mega: 0.92885%
Gengar: 0.06738%
Smeargle: 0.29095%
Snorlax: 3.78875%
Yanma: 0.06407%
Sceptile-Mega: 0.35039%
Sceptile: 0.06254%
Breloom: 0.66643%
Lilligant: 0.03444%
Venomoth: 0.02416%
Relicanth: 0.06877%
Torkoal: 0.03150%
Walrein: 0.04795%
Ursaring: 0.20901%
Vivillon: 0.14654%
Camerupt-Mega: 1.23931%
Camerupt: 0.00209%
Swampert-Mega: 1.31101%
Swampert: 0.31621%
TOTAL USAGE: 17.04796%
(Non-megas included, as they have the same moveset capability. All figures found using .usage1630.)
Combined, every Pokemon that can run a sleep set (not that they will) comprises about 17% of the ladder - you will theoretically run into a sleep-capable Pokemon in roughly 1/6 of your battles. However, only 6 mons really matter towards this, and these are the mons with >1% usage: Jumpluff, Venusaur-Mega, Whimsicott, Snorlax, Camerupt-Mega, and Swampert-Mega (total usage comprising 7.69403%). Out of those, all 6 of those are B-rated at best on the VR, and all of them have extremely easy counterstrategies. They are very easy to prepare for. People who are running teams that cannot reliably beat these mons and the others listed above are either poor players, poor teambuilders, or both.

So congratulations, folks. You've raised a big stink over less than 8% of the ladder, which is very easy to counter. You all suck.
 
Last edited:
Sleep! I think it's mostly covered here, I can't offer any more factual info. I do think people are trying to define abuse versus use rather poorly, which misdirects the argument. I would offer a better definition of abuser as "a Pokemon that is widely used because of its strength, especially with a specific strategy". This would encompass most broken mons that have been suspect banned (Jirachi, Tapu Koko, KyuB, etc.).

The thing is, according to TGC's research, none of these sleep mons as a group fit this definition, let alone individually.
Jumpluff: 1.80455%
Venusaur-Mega: 4.20335%
Venusaur: 0.02188%
Whimsicott: 1.36783%
Gengar-Mega: 0.92885%
Gengar: 0.06738%
Smeargle: 0.29095%
Snorlax: 3.78875%
Yanma: 0.06407%
Sceptile-Mega: 0.35039%
Sceptile: 0.06254%
Breloom: 0.66643%
Lilligant: 0.03444%
Venomoth: 0.02416%
Relicanth: 0.06877%
Torkoal: 0.03150%
Walrein: 0.04795%
Ursaring: 0.20901%
Vivillon: 0.14654%
Camerupt-Mega: 1.23931%
Camerupt: 0.00209%
Swampert-Mega: 1.31101%
Swampert: 0.31621%
TOTAL USAGE: 17.04796%
(Non-megas included, as they have the same moveset capability. All figures found using .usage1630.)
Combined, every Pokemon that can run a sleep set (not that they will) comprises about 17% of the ladder - you will theoretically run into a sleep-capable Pokemon in roughly 1/6 of your battles. However, only 6 mons really matter towards this, and these are the mons with >1% usage: Jumpluff, Venusaur-Mega, Whimsicott, Snorlax, Camerupt-Mega, and Swampert-Mega (total usage comprising 7.69403%). Out of those, all 6 of those are B-rated at best on the VR, and all of them have extremely easy counterstrategies. They are very easy to prepare for. People who are running teams that cannot reliably beat these mons and the others listed above are either poor players, poor teambuilders, or both.

So congratulations, folks. You've raised a big stink over less than 8% of the ladder, which is very easy to counter. You all suck.
Okay, I think there is a fundamental flaw in this argument in that while Pokemon which abuse sleep may not be that popular, the popularity in usage of the moveset of the abuser definitely is, like YawnLax vs CurseLax, SleepPowder MegaVenusaur vs non-SleepPowder ones, Yawn CameruptMega vs non-Yawn variants ones, to give a few examples on where I am getting with this.... So, to show you the sleep usage on popular sleep users (Though I feel this again does not tackle the main issue at hand, I'll just play ball to this logic) :

  • .usage1630 Snorlax moves 1v1
*TIBot: Belly Drum 74.807% | Yawn 73.014% | Protect 66.268% | Double-Edge 62.297% | Recycle 23.320% | Curse 22.812% | Earthquake 16.286% | Chip Away 14.718% | Amnesia 11.783% | Rest 5.801% | Return 5.254% | Facade 4.062% | Other 19.579%

  • .usage1630 Jumpluff moves 1v1
*TIBot: Leech Seed 99.918% | Sleep Powder 98.223% | Substitute 97.745% | Protect 86.967% | Other 17.147%

  • .usage1630 Gengar-Mega moves 1v1
*TIBot: Shadow Ball 66.243% | Will-O-Wisp 56.419% | Counter 42.765% | Sludge Wave 38.822% | Hex 29.275% | Hypnosis 27.848% | Taunt 27.116% | Sludge Bomb 20.949% | Dazzling Gleam 16.813% | Focus Blast 11.279% | Thunderbolt 10.266% | Haze 7.745% | Substitute 6.828% | Protect 5.685% | E...

  • .usage1630 Venusaur-Mega moves 1v1
*TIBot: Sludge Bomb 85.104% | Synthesis 78.298% | Leech Seed 72.792% | Charm 51.448% | Giga Drain 31.178% | Sleep Powder 22.434% | Hidden Power Fire 21.098% | Amnesia 7.942% | Protect 6.530% | Earthquake 3.820% | Other 19.355%

  • .usage1630 smeargle moves 1v1
*TIBot: Transform 93.750% | Imprison 93.181% | Spore 92.131% | Protect 12.895% | Lovely Kiss 10.710% | King's Shield 9.941% | Dream Eater 7.828% | Substitute 7.139% | Nothing 6.442% | Taunt 5.734% | Shore Up 5.271% | Endure 4.819% | Swords Dance 3.733% | Fake Out 3.626% | Present 3.4...


  • .usage1630 Whimsicott moves 1v1
*TIBot: Leech Seed 97.785% | Substitute 96.293% | Protect 91.686% | Moonblast 66.764% | Encore 13.464% | Taunt 9.210% | Toxic 9.103% | Other 15.695%
[doesn't use sleep, contrary to popular notion]
  • .usage1630 Camerupt-Mega moves 1v1
*TIBot: Fire Blast 95.836% | Yawn 82.424% | Earth Power 71.316% | Protect 58.532% | Ancient Power 42.687% | Rock Slide 24.365% | Flash Cannon 7.071% | Other 17.770%

  • .usage1630 Togekiss moves 1v1
*TIBot: Air Slash 98.143% | Dazzling Gleam 71.673% | Roost 42.338% | Trick 37.139% | Thunder Wave 35.814% | Flamethrower 33.636% | Aura Sphere 15.246% | Ancient Power 12.094% | Fire Blast 8.128% | Charm 8.035% | Shadow Ball 4.978% | Hidden Power Fire 3.307% | Extrasensory 2.985% | Pr...

[learns Yawn, but doesn't use it]

.usage1630 Swampert-Mega moves 1v1
*TIBot: Earthquake 93.262% | Protect 53.047% | Yawn 51.506% | Ice Beam 37.732% | Waterfall 37.395% | Outrage 20.146% | Ice Punch 18.189% | Curse 13.992% | Rain Dance 9.097% | Superpower 8.919% | Counter 7.923% | Mirror Coat 7.775% | Hydro Cannon 6.634% | Rock Tomb 5.830% | Icy Wind 4...



The list by usage gets weird but I'll include more Pokemon which uses sleep, but mind you, these Pokemon aren't (or weren't seen) very commonly seen on the ladder
  • .usage1630 Ursaring moves 1v1
*TIBot: Protect 98.650% | Yawn 92.147% | Belly Drum 81.905% | Double-Edge 58.972% | Facade 14.837% | Play Rough 14.567% | Close Combat 12.918% | Chip Away 6.771% | Other 19.234%

  • .usage1630 Empoleon moves 1v1
*TIBot: Icy Wind 67.322% | Hydro Cannon 66.463% | Aqua Jet 60.966% | Grass Knot 51.753% | Flash Cannon 31.507% | Scald 27.520% | Ice Beam 25.574% | Surf 24.306% | Hydro Pump 10.347% | Signal Beam 5.208% | Endure 4.131% | Yawn 3.974% | Drill Peck 2.403% | Other 18.528%

  • .usage1630 Vivillon moves 1v1
*TIBot: Sleep Powder 99.771% | Substitute 97.193% | Quiver Dance 96.406% | Hurricane 69.873% | Bug Buzz 32.096% | Other 4.660%

  • .usage1630 Relicanth moves 1v1
*TIBot: Protect 91.804% | Yawn 91.658% | Head Smash 66.665% | Waterfall 55.994% | Earthquake 35.011% | Flail 20.761% | Aqua Tail 12.255% | Stone Edge 11.356% | Other 14.497%

  • .usage1630 Yanma moves 1v1 (really, though? YANMA?? PLEASE.....)
*TIBot: Hypnosis 100.000% | Substitute 100.000% | Defog 90.041% | Shadow Ball 85.907% | Air Slash 14.093% | Other 9.959%


Okay, so , what was I trying to achieve by displaying these stats? I wanted to just show that the move usage by Pokemon would be a better yardstick to compare between the various sleep users/abusers than the raw usage of the Pokemon because the Pokemon in question can run multiple sets, which may or may not include sleep-inducing moves, but what the relevant information to this argument would be is how popular the sleep-inducing sets of a Pokemon are with respect to the non-sleep inducing sets of it. It is noteworthy that sleep-inducing strats are very, very popular among the Pokemon using it, save for a few.


Having said that, why do I say usage stats aren't the way to go?

  1. Simply because no other mechanic in 1v1's history was banned because of their usage. It would make sense if you use usage stats to defend banning a Pokemon, but banning a mechanic based on usage is not the same as banning a Pokemon, and therefore the parameters used to defend banning/unbanning a Pokemon should not be applied to defend banning/unbanning a mechanic.
  2. There is also the fact that usage stats change, but the underlying principles don't. So, banning a mechanic based on principle brings out more consistency than banning a mechanic based on usage of Pokemon based on it.
So, we don't suck. Maybe our arguments lack clarity coz of language issues or coz of posting at odd times, but certainly not for lack of brains (well, at least mine xd)....
 

DEG

peace
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

Project Leaders: Elo Bandit / DEG / UnleashOurPassion
Welcome to the official launching of the 1v1 Youtube Channel. This channel will serve various purposes including beginner's guides and entertaining content such as battles replays and laddering sessions. For more information you can check out this video.

Visit the channel, and don't forget to subscribe.
Videos list will be updated in the Resources thread.
 

Rosa

AAAAAAA
is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator
Just as a note to those who try to mark up how banworthy something is in relation to how much usage it gets:

| 43 | Deoxys-Defense | 1.61755% | 4698 | 1.618% | 1773 | 3.751% | 2017-06/gen71v1-0
| 33 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.14306% | 4698 | 1.618% | 1773 | 3.751% | 2017-06/gen71v1-1500
| 30 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.62946% | 4698 | 1.618% | 1773 | 3.751% | 2017-06/gen71v1-1630
| 36 | Deoxys-Defense | 1.82586% | 4698 | 1.618% | 1773 | 3.751% | 2017-06/gen71v1-1760
| 37 | Deoxys-Defense | 1.66519% | 4598 | 1.665% | 1716 | 3.816% | 2017-07/gen71v1-0
| 29 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.10182% | 4598 | 1.665% | 1716 | 3.816% | 2017-07/gen71v1-1500
| 33 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.12491% | 4598 | 1.665% | 1716 | 3.816% | 2017-07/gen71v1-1630
| 34 | Deoxys-Defense | 1.39848% | 4598 | 1.665% | 1716 | 3.816% | 2017-07/gen71v1-1760
| 12 | Deoxys-Defense | 4.50710% | 8471 | 4.507% | 3149 | 10.239% | 2017-07/gen71v1suspecttest-0
| 17 | Deoxys-Defense | 4.32594% | 8471 | 4.507% | 3149 | 10.239% | 2017-07/gen71v1suspecttest-1500
| 16 | Deoxys-Defense | 4.79346% | 8471 | 4.507% | 3149 | 10.239% | 2017-07/gen71v1suspecttest-1630
| 16 | Deoxys-Defense | 5.17970% | 8471 | 4.507% | 3149 | 10.239% | 2017-07/gen71v1suspecttest-1760

Taken from the last two months just before being banned, the highest usage rank Deoxys-Defense has ever been in was 12, which happened during its own suspect test, at the lowest possible range of glicko-1. I want to make it very clear that usage alone is not the reason we ban things, nor is it even a significant reason for things to be banned at all.
Have a nice day. megapost on Sleep coming soon to a thread near you
 
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