Ah, I see what you're saying, but you still have to consider that moveset usage is still a percentage of total usage - thus, Yawnlax has a usage rate of 3.78875%*73.014%=2.766317925%. That's a lot of Yawnlaxes, but very few Snorlaxes period - you'll see a Yawnlax a little more often than once every 40 battles on average. It seems common, which makes it feel annoying, but it really isn't.Okay, I think there is a fundamental flaw in this argument in that while Pokemon which abuse sleep may not be that popular, the popularity in usage of the moveset of the abuser definitely is, like YawnLax vs CurseLax, SleepPowder MegaVenusaur vs non-SleepPowder ones, Yawn CameruptMega vs non-Yawn variants ones, to give a few examples on where I am getting with this.... So, to show you the sleep usage on popular sleep users (Though I feel this again does not tackle the main issue at hand, I'll just play ball to this logic) :
*TIBot: Belly Drum 74.807% | Yawn 73.014% | Protect 66.268% | Double-Edge 62.297% | Recycle 23.320% | Curse 22.812% | Earthquake 16.286% | Chip Away 14.718% | Amnesia 11.783% | Rest 5.801% | Return 5.254% | Facade 4.062% | Other 19.579%
- .usage1630 Snorlax moves 1v1
*TIBot: Leech Seed 99.918% | Sleep Powder 98.223% | Substitute 97.745% | Protect 86.967% | Other 17.147%
- .usage1630 Jumpluff moves 1v1
*TIBot: Shadow Ball 66.243% | Will-O-Wisp 56.419% | Counter 42.765% | Sludge Wave 38.822% | Hex 29.275% | Hypnosis 27.848% | Taunt 27.116% | Sludge Bomb 20.949% | Dazzling Gleam 16.813% | Focus Blast 11.279% | Thunderbolt 10.266% | Haze 7.745% | Substitute 6.828% | Protect 5.685% | E...
- .usage1630 Gengar-Mega moves 1v1
*TIBot: Sludge Bomb 85.104% | Synthesis 78.298% | Leech Seed 72.792% | Charm 51.448% | Giga Drain 31.178% | Sleep Powder 22.434% | Hidden Power Fire 21.098% | Amnesia 7.942% | Protect 6.530% | Earthquake 3.820% | Other 19.355%
- .usage1630 Venusaur-Mega moves 1v1
*TIBot: Transform 93.750% | Imprison 93.181% | Spore 92.131% | Protect 12.895% | Lovely Kiss 10.710% | King's Shield 9.941% | Dream Eater 7.828% | Substitute 7.139% | Nothing 6.442% | Taunt 5.734% | Shore Up 5.271% | Endure 4.819% | Swords Dance 3.733% | Fake Out 3.626% | Present 3.4...
- .usage1630 smeargle moves 1v1
*TIBot: Leech Seed 97.785% | Substitute 96.293% | Protect 91.686% | Moonblast 66.764% | Encore 13.464% | Taunt 9.210% | Toxic 9.103% | Other 15.695%
- .usage1630 Whimsicott moves 1v1
[doesn't use sleep, contrary to popular notion]
*TIBot: Fire Blast 95.836% | Yawn 82.424% | Earth Power 71.316% | Protect 58.532% | Ancient Power 42.687% | Rock Slide 24.365% | Flash Cannon 7.071% | Other 17.770%
- .usage1630 Camerupt-Mega moves 1v1
*TIBot: Air Slash 98.143% | Dazzling Gleam 71.673% | Roost 42.338% | Trick 37.139% | Thunder Wave 35.814% | Flamethrower 33.636% | Aura Sphere 15.246% | Ancient Power 12.094% | Fire Blast 8.128% | Charm 8.035% | Shadow Ball 4.978% | Hidden Power Fire 3.307% | Extrasensory 2.985% | Pr...
- .usage1630 Togekiss moves 1v1
[learns Yawn, but doesn't use it]
.usage1630 Swampert-Mega moves 1v1
*TIBot: Earthquake 93.262% | Protect 53.047% | Yawn 51.506% | Ice Beam 37.732% | Waterfall 37.395% | Outrage 20.146% | Ice Punch 18.189% | Curse 13.992% | Rain Dance 9.097% | Superpower 8.919% | Counter 7.923% | Mirror Coat 7.775% | Hydro Cannon 6.634% | Rock Tomb 5.830% | Icy Wind 4...
The list by usage gets weird but I'll include more Pokemon which uses sleep, but mind you, these Pokemon aren't (or weren't seen) very commonly seen on the ladder
*TIBot: Protect 98.650% | Yawn 92.147% | Belly Drum 81.905% | Double-Edge 58.972% | Facade 14.837% | Play Rough 14.567% | Close Combat 12.918% | Chip Away 6.771% | Other 19.234%
- .usage1630 Ursaring moves 1v1
*TIBot: Icy Wind 67.322% | Hydro Cannon 66.463% | Aqua Jet 60.966% | Grass Knot 51.753% | Flash Cannon 31.507% | Scald 27.520% | Ice Beam 25.574% | Surf 24.306% | Hydro Pump 10.347% | Signal Beam 5.208% | Endure 4.131% | Yawn 3.974% | Drill Peck 2.403% | Other 18.528%
- .usage1630 Empoleon moves 1v1
*TIBot: Sleep Powder 99.771% | Substitute 97.193% | Quiver Dance 96.406% | Hurricane 69.873% | Bug Buzz 32.096% | Other 4.660%
- .usage1630 Vivillon moves 1v1
*TIBot: Protect 91.804% | Yawn 91.658% | Head Smash 66.665% | Waterfall 55.994% | Earthquake 35.011% | Flail 20.761% | Aqua Tail 12.255% | Stone Edge 11.356% | Other 14.497%
- .usage1630 Relicanth moves 1v1
*TIBot: Hypnosis 100.000% | Substitute 100.000% | Defog 90.041% | Shadow Ball 85.907% | Air Slash 14.093% | Other 9.959%
- .usage1630 Yanma moves 1v1 (really, though? YANMA?? PLEASE.....)
Okay, so , what was I trying to achieve by displaying these stats? I wanted to just show that the move usage by Pokemon would be a better yardstick to compare between the various sleep users/abusers than the raw usage of the Pokemon because the Pokemon in question can run multiple sets, which may or may not include sleep-inducing moves, but what the relevant information to this argument would be is how popular the sleep-inducing sets of a Pokemon are with respect to the non-sleep inducing sets of it. It is noteworthy that sleep-inducing strats are very, very popular among the Pokemon using it, save for a few.
Having said that, why do I say usage stats aren't the way to go?
So, we don't suck. Maybe our arguments lack clarity coz of language issues or coz of posting at odd times, but certainly not for lack of brains (well, at least mine xd)....
- Simply because no other mechanic in 1v1's history was banned because of their usage. It would make sense if you use usage stats to defend banning a Pokemon, but banning a mechanic based on usage is not the same as banning a Pokemon, and therefore the parameters used to defend banning/unbanning a Pokemon should not be applied to defend banning/unbanning a mechanic.
- There is also the fact that usage stats change, but the underlying principles don't. So, banning a mechanic based on principle brings out more consistency than banning a mechanic based on usage of Pokemon based on it.
This is a much better line of argument given our previous ban history and philosophy. However, we have always banned because whatever we banned was so broken that it was impossible to play against without significant workarounds. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that sleep as a mechanic fits that definition - 17% of mons in the meta has any combat capability with it, and of those less than half are any good at all regardless of whether they run a sleep move. Is it gimmicky and frustrating? Yes, but so what? Should we ban Leech seed+Protect+Substitute, or flinch as a mechanic? (Already did away with Jirachi, but scarf was really the only thing making it banworthy.) Should we find a way to remove stall from 1v1? Do we ban Z-moves* and Hyper Beam/Giga Impact because they're too strong? There are a lot of bullshit strategies in this game. Taking out sleep seems like the most arbitrary place to start getting rid of them.Just as a note to those who try to mark up how banworthy something is in relation to how much usage it gets:
| 43 | Deoxys-Defense | 1.61755% | 4698 | 1.618% | 1773 | 3.751% | 2017-06/gen71v1-0
| 33 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.14306% | 4698 | 1.618% | 1773 | 3.751% | 2017-06/gen71v1-1500
| 30 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.62946% | 4698 | 1.618% | 1773 | 3.751% | 2017-06/gen71v1-1630
| 36 | Deoxys-Defense | 1.82586% | 4698 | 1.618% | 1773 | 3.751% | 2017-06/gen71v1-1760
| 37 | Deoxys-Defense | 1.66519% | 4598 | 1.665% | 1716 | 3.816% | 2017-07/gen71v1-0
| 29 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.10182% | 4598 | 1.665% | 1716 | 3.816% | 2017-07/gen71v1-1500
| 33 | Deoxys-Defense | 2.12491% | 4598 | 1.665% | 1716 | 3.816% | 2017-07/gen71v1-1630
| 34 | Deoxys-Defense | 1.39848% | 4598 | 1.665% | 1716 | 3.816% | 2017-07/gen71v1-1760
| 12 | Deoxys-Defense | 4.50710% | 8471 | 4.507% | 3149 | 10.239% | 2017-07/gen71v1suspecttest-0
| 17 | Deoxys-Defense | 4.32594% | 8471 | 4.507% | 3149 | 10.239% | 2017-07/gen71v1suspecttest-1500
| 16 | Deoxys-Defense | 4.79346% | 8471 | 4.507% | 3149 | 10.239% | 2017-07/gen71v1suspecttest-1630
| 16 | Deoxys-Defense | 5.17970% | 8471 | 4.507% | 3149 | 10.239% | 2017-07/gen71v1suspecttest-1760
Taken from the last two months just before being banned, the highest usage rank Deoxys-Defense has ever been in was 12, which happened during its own suspect test, at the lowest possible range of glicko-1. I want to make it very clear that usage alone is not the reason we ban things, nor is it even a significant reason for things to be banned at all.
Have a nice day.megapost on Sleep coming soon to a thread near you
*For the record, I think we should've banned Z-moves, but that was a different argument and it's over now.