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Metagame 1v1 Metagame Discussion

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This is probably gonna sound kind of stupid and I'm probably making a false comparison or something, but if Mimikyu is coming under fire for it's curse set, shouldn't stuff like Whimsicott also be coming under fire for similar reasons?
whimsicott.png

Similar to Mimikyu, Whimsicott can also stall out opponents if given an opportunity, and often times forces the opponent to OHKO it turn one or get "leech seed+sub+Protect" stalled to death, which is made worse by how bulky most Whimsicott are run and their multitude of type berries they equip?
As a few examples of what ridiculous things whimsicott can survive:
252 SpA Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Whimsicott: 237-280 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Babiri Berry Whimsicott: 243-286 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 20 HP / 252+ Def Occa Berry Whimsicott: 225-265 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 20 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 223-264 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Babiri Berry Whimsicott: 255-301 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (370 BP) vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Whimsicott in Electric Terrain: 246-291 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO Charged Z Thunder (assuming Koko avoided the leech seed turn one and charged up)

And so on and so forth... (and these were super strong or super effective attacks from some of the heaviest hitters in the format, let alone some of the weaker stuff)
Not to mention the fact that the Whimsicott can just as easily run stuff like taunt, encore, cotton guard, stun spore, and grass whistle for special opponents who might otherwise beat it, not unlike how Mimikyu can run thunder wave or will o wisp to deal with other specific threats to it.
---
If Whimsicott can be EVd to survive a huge variety of things and can stall so much to death Because: "Lol I survived your one attack with my ridiculous spread, YOU LOSE XDXDXD"
How is Mimikyu that much different? Mold breakers are common enough and stopping Mimikyu from cursing at all with stuff like taunts, sleep, flinches; or just reducing it's speed or boosting yours (rock tomb and flame charge come to mind) or just out-speeding it and KOing while it tries in vain to protect against your scarfer or naturally faster and stronger Pokemon.
---
I may just be drawing a dull/faulty comparison between two unlike Pokemon, but If we don't see stuff like Whimsicott as an issue, why Mimikyu?
(No this post isn't me trying to ban Whimsicott, contrarily, it's me trying to understand why two somewhat similar Pokemon exist, yet only one is really getting the attention)
(I can't believe I just tried to defend Mimikyu, kill me now)
 
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This is probably gonna sound kind of stupid and I'm probably making a false comparison or something, but if Mimikyu is coming under fire for it's curse set, shouldn't stuff like Whimsicott also be coming under fire for similar reasons?
View attachment 112814
Similar to Mimikyu, Whimsicott can also stall out opponents if given an opportunity, and often times forces the opponent to OHKO it turn one or get "leech seed+sub+Protect" stalled to death, which is made worse by how bulky most Whimsicott are run and their multitude of type berries they equip?
As a few examples of what ridiculous things whimsicott can survive:
252 SpA Blacephalon Mind Blown vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Occa Berry Whimsicott: 237-280 (81.4 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Huge Power Mawile-Mega Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Babiri Berry Whimsicott: 243-286 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Tough Claws Charizard-Mega-X Flare Blitz vs. 20 HP / 252+ Def Occa Berry Whimsicott: 225-265 (84.5 - 99.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Never-Ending Nightmare (140 BP) vs. 20 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 223-264 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Hustle Durant Iron Head vs. 120 HP / 136 Def Babiri Berry Whimsicott: 255-301 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (370 BP) vs. 120 HP / 252+ SpD Whimsicott in Electric Terrain: 246-291 (84.5 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO Charged Z Thunder (assuming Koko avoided the leech seed turn one and charged up)

And so on and so forth... (and these were super strong or super effective attacks from some of the heaviest hitters in the format, let alone some of the weaker stuff)
Not to mention the fact that the Whimsicott can just as easily run stuff like taunt, encore, cotton guard, stun spore, and grass whistle for special opponents who might otherwise beat it, not unlike how Mimikyu can run thunder wave or will o wisp to deal with other specific threats to it.
---
If Whimsicott can be EVd to survive a huge variety of things and can stall so much to death Because: "Lol I survived your one attack with my ridiculous spread, YOU LOSE XDXDXD"
How is Mimikyu that much different? Mold breakers are common enough and stopping Mimikyu from cursing at all with stuff like taunts, sleep, flinches; or just reducing it's speed or boosting yours (rock tomb and flame charge come to mind) or just out-speeding it and KOing while it tries in vain to protect against your scarfer or naturally faster and stronger Pokemon.
---
I may just be drawing a dull/faulty comparison between two unlike Pokemon, but If we don't see stuff like Whimsicott as an issue, why Mimikyu?
(No this post isn't me trying to ban Whimsicott, contrarily, it's me trying to understand why two somewhat similar Pokemon exist, yet only one is really getting the attention)
(I can't believe I just tried to defend Mimikyu, kill me now)
While yes, whimiscott is good and can beat many mons that mimi can. Whimiscott cant beat as many mons as curse mimikyu. Whimiscott usually cant beat alot more mons or as much mons as u listed as whimi must run a certain set/evs to beat "that mon." While yes, the calcs u listed show whimi can theoretically beat, doesnt make it possible to beat all those mons. While curse mimikyu, usually only runs 1 set that has tons of success and can be completely viable with that 1 set. While, mimi can run other sets, its primary 1 is curse, which runs the same 4 moves and mostly the same evs and item (mimikyuim). The tl;dr: Whimiscott has to run a certain set to beat a mon or mons while, mimikyu can run 1 set and beat tons of mons without altercation.
 
ayedan already beat me to some of the stuff i was going to say but i'll finish
How is Mimikyu that much different? Mold breakers are common enough and stopping Mimikyu from cursing at all with stuff like taunts, sleep, flinches; or just reducing it's speed or boosting yours (rock tomb and flame charge come to mind) or just out-speeding it and KOing while it tries in vain to protect against your scarfer or naturally faster and stronger Pokemon.
The point of over centralizing is that you shouldn't have to center your whole team around one mon . Mimikyu does this, sure gyara is the one big meta counter with mold breaker but that's about it. I'd rather not run excadrill on every team. T-wave invalidates rock tomb and flame charge along with out speeding as most faster mons get outsped after one t-wave. Your last argument is weakest with sleep/flinches as you shouldn't be relying on hax to win a matchup.
I have to say that Kentari is right about mimikyu and I think his approach is the best one to take
 
While yes, whimiscott is good and can beat many mons that mimi can. Whimiscott cant beat as many mons as curse mimikyu. Whimiscott usually cant beat alot more mons or as much mons as u listed as whimi must run a certain set/evs to beat "that mon." While yes, the calcs u listed show whimi can theoretically beat, doesnt make it possible to beat all those mons. While curse mimikyu, usually only runs 1 set that has tons of success and can be completely viable with that 1 set. While, mimi can run other sets, its primary 1 is curse, which runs the same 4 moves and mostly the same evs and item (mimikyuim). The tl;dr: Whimiscott has to run a certain set to beat a mon or mons while, mimikyu can run 1 set and beat tons of mons without altercation.
I suppose that Whimsicott beating so much of the format with 2 different spreads and with 2-3 different items would be completely different from Mimikyu doing all of that with only one set and one item (while still having the freedom to switch it up with stuff like ghostium, sitrus berry, bright powder, etc.) makes sense, thanks for clearing that up for me.

ayedan already beat me to some of the stuff i was going to say but i'll finish

The point of over centralizing is that you shouldn't have to center your whole team around one mon . Mimikyu does this, sure gyara is the one big meta counter with mold breaker but that's about it. I'd rather not run excadrill on every team. T-wave invalidates rock tomb and flame charge along with out speeding as most faster mons get outsped after one t-wave. Your last argument is weakest with sleep/flinches as you shouldn't be relying on hax to win a matchup.
I have to say that Kentari is right about mimikyu and I think his approach is the best one to take
Right, relying on hax to beat something is bad and I completely spaced on thunder wave invalidating the speed advantage method of checking mimkyu, thanks for correcting me.

So with regards to banning Mimikyu (not totem), while I do understand that it is kinda over centralizing (looking over my teams, I realize I subconsciously added an answer to Mimikyu to all of them without really thinking about it) and probably deserves a suspect, I don't know personally if it should take priority over the other hot topics in 1v1 right now (sleep and Koko) as both of those are still hotly contested in chat daily while Mimikyu is slightly less talked about. Makes me think that while yeah, a Mimikyu-Regular ban would be nice, I think we should deal with (decide to suspect or not) the other elephants in the room before tackling it. Put it on the back burner so to speak.
(Maybe, maybe not, I'm still rather new to the concepts of banning and suspecting things, so I may be wrong in assuming we need to even have a priority list of what to deal with first, My apologies.)
I Thank you both for replying to me and my post and answering the question I proposed with it.
 
Here's the 'mon I've been using to beat yawnlaxes ever since they became popular (around a year ago), & have had a very good winrate aganist them:

Substitute-PuP Mega Swampert
7ff11e10bb9d29e35722f35fe5ee0508.png


here's the set:
Fish on 'roids (Swampert-Mega) (M) @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 125 Def / 125 SpD / 6 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail/ Waterfall (your choice)
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Power-Up Punch

The main idea of this set is to set up substitute turn 1 when 'lax uses yawn, then you power-up-punch on turn 2, as the 'lax uses double edge. Next, use eq on turn 3 (which has a good chance of KOing thanks to double-edge recoil damage & PuP damage), & if eq doesn't ko, you should tank Breakneck blitz, & finish lax off next turn. If lax goes for belly drum on turn 2 or 3, you'll win (since you sub turn 1, & use PuP & another attack.

replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-739212958
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-753554955
 
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Here's the 'mon I've been using to beat yawnlaxes ever since they became popular (around a year ago), & have had a very good winrate aganist them:

Substitute-PuP Mega Swampert
View attachment 112943

here's the set:
Fish on 'roids (Swampert-Mega) (M) @ Swampertite
Ability: Swift Swim
EVs: 252 Atk / 125 Def / 125 SpD / 6 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Aqua Tail/ Waterfall (your choice)
- Earthquake
- Substitute
- Power-Up Punch

The main idea of this set is to set up substitute turn 1 when 'lax uses yawn, then you power-up-punch on turn 2, as the 'lax uses double edge. Next, use eq on turn 3 (which has a good chance of KOing thanks to double-edge recoil damage & PuP damage), & if eq doesn't ko, you should tank Breakneck blitz, & finish lax off next turn. If lax goes for belly drum on turn 2 or 3, you'll win (since you sub turn 1, & use PuP & another attack.

replays (why haven't I saved many battles vs yawnlaxes? I'll post more replays when I get them.):
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-739212958
I like that idea with lax, you'd properly beat every snor set in 1v1, so this is a good counter to it and literally beats all.
Unless the lax runs something like taunt { which i dont think it would and idk if it actually gets taunt ] , that would most likely be the only way it gets to kill u. Just be careful with if you get into the wrong matchup, but sub always help against weaknesses .
 

DEG

ADIOS COMPADRES
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
We made a room poll asking the community if they want to increase the number of official tours and the results were positive. Additionally on the form I got many requests about that. We have talked as room staff and decided to go with 3 officials per day and not 4 for the time being mainly due to the shortage of staff and different hours and other minor reasons.

Congratulations to The Dark Alakazam for winning last month Championship.
May's Schedule.
1525175166440.png

Times translate to
5 AM / 1 PM / 9 PM for EST timezone.

We have also listened and made the 1v1boards cleaner and better looking since it was one of the most requested things about the forum. We also have implemented project threads that you should check out.
1v1 Core Laddering Challenge
Next Best Thing
Break My Team

We also have re-started the 1v1 analyses projects so make sure to check it out.
1v1 Analyses Project

Thank you for input!
 
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Mono 1v1 Movement
(Ignore the title for now i couldnt think of anything better)

Ok every as you probably have seen or heard from me recently i love laddering with Monotype in 1v1. Imma try to give my best take as to why i do, what the noticed benefits i feel are and why you maybe should try it aswell. Lets go

First of all, thats a personal opinion only , i find it more enjoyable to ladder using not the most common PKMN. it feels kinda rewarding using a mono type .
The best thing i have noticed since i played monotype ( i used mostly mono dragon ) is that predicting opponents became a lot lot easier. As Elo Bandit said " predicting with monotype is a whole different thign". after laddering 4 alts to around 1600 elo and one alt solely monodragon from 1000 to 1520 going 26/4 i noticed that people keep predicting in 2 simple patterns.
1: They pick the obvious choice which they think beats your entire type . end of the story
2: they lost to you with their "surekill" pkmn and are confused so they send in the most reliable cover beater they got thinking it will work (dos, zard,koko pretty often)
3: this is not really a pattern it only applies to actual good players. who know which of your mons beat what and try to actually predict you. but if you know they are good you can play around that aswell
Generally i found that by playing mono you could easily tell which person is either good , average or bad on ladder ( no offenses here ) or if people understood their teams properly and the matchups they can win or lose, opposing to just copy pasting a team from the samples and ladder.
Apart from that it is a fun experience in itself, cause if you build a real proper monotype you understand your team better than anyone (idk if anyone even cares about that)
I just think it makes you a bit more skilled and better of a player. Could do a funny monotype 1v1 challenge for a week i guess ?

Lastly i think it is fairly obvious why i should think more people should try give it a go , its fun and challenging for yourself plus if youre interested where this ramble first came from https://pastebin.com/uGitk3B6 heres where i rambled about it to Elo Bandit

As an Extra here are examples and Replays of different Mono 1v1s that already work :

1: Myself . I use a Mono Dragon which most of you mightve already seen me use on different alts consisting of Kommoo,Haxorous and Naganadel
ill keep the spread and more to me as for now as its still in development
I also use a Mono water which is a bit older, around 4 months ago i made it. so it definetly could probably need a little polish but here it is for you guys: http://pokepast.es/76781642a7557508 One Definite change possible is using superstrike66 Swampert from earlier in this threat to check Sleep lax, since this team is from before it got popular
2: Kentari He tried it out himself already, not sure if he liked it but https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741165961 here he is Ig ^^
( he will definetly kill me for this)
3: The Dark Alakazam Good friend of mine and uses mono fire https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741221427 as you can see
4: Wrath of Alakazam The Man himself using mono ghost https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741221225
5: The OG Mono legend who inspired me to make this a bigger thing Fertile Crescent using his iconic mono normal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-739466556
6: UnleashOurPassion our beloved 1v1 Mod who shared his Mono electric quite some time ago http://pokepast.es/f6e5c9dbfa94204c
7: And lastly as you probalby all saw already Elo Bandit who mentioned a decent amount during this post. http://pokepast.es/d55094c95fc79342 this is the mono steel we came up with together and which you can also see in his new video ,
right here
.
If youre interested in more mono 1v1s go ahead and ask me in the room im currently also working on a Mono Bug team and a Mono grass for 1v1 if people are interested in that.
I think thats all said and done ? if anythings open or forgotten ill answer later
(Edit : yes ik the post prolly looks aweful sooo sorry )
 
Mono 1v1 Movement
(Ignore the title for now i couldnt think of anything better)

Ok every as you probably have seen or heard from me recently i love laddering with Monotype in 1v1. Imma try to give my best take as to why i do, what the noticed benefits i feel are and why you maybe should try it aswell. Lets go

First of all, thats a personal opinion only , i find it more enjoyable to ladder using not the most common PKMN. it feels kinda rewarding using a mono type .
The best thing i have noticed since i played monotype ( i used mostly mono dragon ) is that predicting opponents became a lot lot easier. As Elo Bandit said " predicting with monotype is a whole different thign". after laddering 4 alts to around 1600 elo and one alt solely monodragon from 1000 to 1520 going 26/4 i noticed that people keep predicting in 2 simple patterns.
1: They pick the obvious choice which they think beats your entire type . end of the story
2: they lost to you with their "surekill" pkmn and are confused so they send in the most reliable cover beater they got thinking it will work (dos, zard,koko pretty often)
3: this is not really a pattern it only applies to actual good players. who know which of your mons beat what and try to actually predict you. but if you know they are good you can play around that aswell
Generally i found that by playing mono you could easily tell which person is either good , average or bad on ladder ( no offenses here ) or if people understood their teams properly and the matchups they can win or lose, opposing to just copy pasting a team from the samples and ladder.
Apart from that it is a fun experience in itself, cause if you build a real proper monotype you understand your team better than anyone (idk if anyone even cares about that)
I just think it makes you a bit more skilled and better of a player. Could do a funny monotype 1v1 challenge for a week i guess ?

Lastly i think it is fairly obvious why i should think more people should try give it a go , its fun and challenging for yourself plus if youre interested where this ramble first came from https://pastebin.com/uGitk3B6 heres where i rambled about it to Elo Bandit

As an Extra here are examples and Replays of different Mono 1v1s that already work :

1: Myself . I use a Mono Dragon which most of you mightve already seen me use on different alts consisting of Kommoo,Haxorous and Naganadel
ill keep the spread and more to me as for now as its still in development
I also use a Mono water which is a bit older, around 4 months ago i made it. so it definetly could probably need a little polish but here it is for you guys: http://pokepast.es/76781642a7557508 One Definite change possible is using superstrike66 Swampert from earlier in this threat to check Sleep lax, since this team is from before it got popular
2: Kentari He tried it out himself already, not sure if he liked it but https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741165961 here he is Ig ^^
( he will definetly kill me for this)
3: The Dark Alakazam Good friend of mine and uses mono fire https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741221427 as you can see
4: Wrath of Alakazam The Man himself using mono ghost https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741221225
5: The OG Mono legend who inspired me to make this a bigger thing Fertile Crescent using his iconic mono normal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-739466556
6: UnleashOurPassion our beloved 1v1 Mod who shared his Mono electric quite some time ago http://pokepast.es/f6e5c9dbfa94204c
7: And lastly as you probalby all saw already Elo Bandit who mentioned a decent amount during this post. http://pokepast.es/d55094c95fc79342 this is the mono steel we came up with together and which you can also see in his new video ,
right here
.
If youre interested in more mono 1v1s go ahead and ask me in the room im currently also working on a Mono Bug team and a Mono grass for 1v1 if people are interested in that.
I think thats all said and done ? if anythings open or forgotten ill answer later
(Edit : yes ik the post prolly looks aweful sooo sorry )
you forgot USELESSCRAB'S Mono....Krabby Evo...
 

ZeroPlasmaFist

Banned deucer.
Mono 1v1 Movement
(Ignore the title for now i couldnt think of anything better)

Ok every as you probably have seen or heard from me recently i love laddering with Monotype in 1v1. Imma try to give my best take as to why i do, what the noticed benefits i feel are and why you maybe should try it aswell. Lets go

First of all, thats a personal opinion only , i find it more enjoyable to ladder using not the most common PKMN. it feels kinda rewarding using a mono type .
The best thing i have noticed since i played monotype ( i used mostly mono dragon ) is that predicting opponents became a lot lot easier. As Elo Bandit said " predicting with monotype is a whole different thign". after laddering 4 alts to around 1600 elo and one alt solely monodragon from 1000 to 1520 going 26/4 i noticed that people keep predicting in 2 simple patterns.
1: They pick the obvious choice which they think beats your entire type . end of the story
2: they lost to you with their "surekill" pkmn and are confused so they send in the most reliable cover beater they got thinking it will work (dos, zard,koko pretty often)
3: this is not really a pattern it only applies to actual good players. who know which of your mons beat what and try to actually predict you. but if you know they are good you can play around that aswell
Generally i found that by playing mono you could easily tell which person is either good , average or bad on ladder ( no offenses here ) or if people understood their teams properly and the matchups they can win or lose, opposing to just copy pasting a team from the samples and ladder.
Apart from that it is a fun experience in itself, cause if you build a real proper monotype you understand your team better than anyone (idk if anyone even cares about that)
I just think it makes you a bit more skilled and better of a player. Could do a funny monotype 1v1 challenge for a week i guess ?

Lastly i think it is fairly obvious why i should think more people should try give it a go , its fun and challenging for yourself plus if youre interested where this ramble first came from https://pastebin.com/uGitk3B6 heres where i rambled about it to Elo Bandit

As an Extra here are examples and Replays of different Mono 1v1s that already work :

1: Myself . I use a Mono Dragon which most of you mightve already seen me use on different alts consisting of Kommoo,Haxorous and Naganadel
ill keep the spread and more to me as for now as its still in development
I also use a Mono water which is a bit older, around 4 months ago i made it. so it definetly could probably need a little polish but here it is for you guys: http://pokepast.es/76781642a7557508 One Definite change possible is using superstrike66 Swampert from earlier in this threat to check Sleep lax, since this team is from before it got popular
2: Kentari He tried it out himself already, not sure if he liked it but https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741165961 here he is Ig ^^
( he will definetly kill me for this)
3: The Dark Alakazam Good friend of mine and uses mono fire https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741221427 as you can see
4: Wrath of Alakazam The Man himself using mono ghost https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-741221225
5: The OG Mono legend who inspired me to make this a bigger thing Fertile Crescent using his iconic mono normal
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-739466556
6: UnleashOurPassion our beloved 1v1 Mod who shared his Mono electric quite some time ago http://pokepast.es/f6e5c9dbfa94204c
7: And lastly as you probalby all saw already Elo Bandit who mentioned a decent amount during this post. http://pokepast.es/d55094c95fc79342 this is the mono steel we came up with together and which you can also see in his new video ,
right here
.
If youre interested in more mono 1v1s go ahead and ask me in the room im currently also working on a Mono Bug team and a Mono grass for 1v1 if people are interested in that.
I think thats all said and done ? if anythings open or forgotten ill answer later
(Edit : yes ik the post prolly looks aweful sooo sorry )
Hey guys. Sorry for the one-liner (ykw. I'll stop doing one-liners after this), but just to let you know, I'll be coming soon with a simarlar AAA 1v1 post at some point.
Sidenote, when are these fun tours going to come along. They're, well, really fun.
 
Blazikin a mono fire by me :


heatran.jpg




charizard y.jpg




pyrax.jpg


Utsuho (Heatran) (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 96 HP / 104 Def / 188 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Rock Tomb
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Yukari (Charizard-Mega-Y) (F) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 84 SpD / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Blast Burn
- Flame Charge

Flandre (Volcarona) (F) @ Buginium Z
Ability: Swarm
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 100 HP / 96 Def / 4 SpA / 200 SpD / 108 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
- Bug Buzz
- Substitute
 
Blazikin a mono fire by me :


View attachment 113890



View attachment 113891



View attachment 113892

Utsuho (Heatran) (F) @ Air Balloon
Ability: Flash Fire
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 96 HP / 104 Def / 188 SpA / 120 Spe
Modest Nature
- Overheat
- Rock Tomb
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]

Yukari (Charizard-Mega-Y) (F) @ Charizardite Y
Ability: Drought
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 64 SpA / 84 SpD / 108 Spe
Modest Nature
- Solar Beam
- Air Slash
- Blast Burn
- Flame Charge

Flandre (Volcarona) (F) @ Buginium Z
Ability: Swarm
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 100 HP / 96 Def / 4 SpA / 200 SpD / 108 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Quiver Dance
- Roost
- Bug Buzz
- Substitute
Apart from Primarina and Kommo i see no very big threats. Maybe zygod if your volc cant deal with it but i think it should be able to
 

DEG

ADIOS COMPADRES
is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
[14:01:10] ~The Immortal: NOT cardi b
Hello and welcome to the second part of our new suspect process. In the first part we opened rotational council signup and picked them without knowing their stances on future suspects. Second part is us announcing the suspect, which will be Tapu Koko, and giving the community a full week to discuss what they feel about suspected Pokemon. Third part is the council and rotational council voting. The Pokemon needs super majority of 60%+ to be banned.

Suspect 2.1: Tapu Koko


The 1v1 Leadership team has voted upon Tapu Koko to be suspected. The discussion will run for 1 week until Friday 11th of May 2018. Please discuss while using the suspect test philosophy as background to solidify your arguments. It is highly discouraged to attack others personally or their opinions because they aren't on the same side as yours. After the discussion, the council will vote and Tapu Koko will need a 60% pro-ban super majority to be banned.

Justification:
Tapu Koko beats more than 3/4 of the metagame with one set, that's even more than Kyurem-Black with the 5 sets. Tapu Koko typing is great and makes it weak both Ground, and Poison-type Pokemon. The former are limited to Golem and Donphan at most, with some uses such as Garchomp and Swampert while the latter are limited to Mega Venusaur and Naganadel. Other Pokemon with coverage moves such as Dragonite and Mega Metagross can go against Tapu Koko but with Iron Defense in its pocket there's no way they can beat it. Additionally, Tapu Koko can adjust its sets to defeat Ground-type Pokemon in high competitive plays.

Moreover, people are starting to run sets that you wouldn't see outside of countering Tapu Koko such as Laser Focus Mega Metagross and Scarf Meloetta as noted by Kentari, this is a joke and shows how overcentralizing Tapu Koko is. A pokemon should NOT be overcentralizing in the metagame, specially in 1v1, this, first, limits teambuilding. People are building teams that lose to Koko unless they run its limited counters, and forcing people to run the same Pokemon(s) just to defeat one Pokemon is unhealthy for the metagame. As 1v1 community and leaders our objective is to diversify the metagame, is to make it a healthy place where one should not run specific Pokemon to win against one other specific Pokemon.

Tapu Koko is one of the only Pokemon that can easily (I know Bulk up is a thing but it's only on the physical side) boost both its Defenses and Offenses thanks to Iron Defense and Charge which allows it to pick whatever it likes in matchups. This is a big plus to Tapu Koko and enters in a big portion of what makes it truly broken.

Adding to that, Tapu Koko paired with 2 other Pokemon can cover pretty cleanly 99% of the metagame and force most of the time, if not all the time, 50/50 which is extremely unhealthy for the metagame. It also has high speed so it doesn't have to worry about other Pokemon outspeeding it easily dropping Z-Thunder / Z-Wild Charge / Charge / ID. Speaking of moves, you do not even know if its physical or special which is more absurd.



Use the new and roughly edited suspect test philosophy to discuss, it might not be 100% edited and done but it's 90% done.
1v1 Suspect Philosophy


As an attempt to draw visible traces between what is broken and what isn't broken, I will be posting the 1v1 tiering philosophy that should be referred as a base to construct your arguments on it. We definitely don't want this metagame to turn into Ubers 1v1 nor NU 1v1, we want to build a strict line and finish from a plethora of arguments with different philosophies in head. We won't follow OU or other metagame's tiering philosophy as 1v1 is a different concept which doesn't respond to the call. By studying the thread and the ladder for months, we have concluded:

1) A Pokemon is deemed suspect worthy if it's overcentralizing in the 1v1 metagame, a significantly high usage justifies the large scale it takes in the metagame which is unhealthy and needs to be looked on. This is 1v1 and not a battle between two teams, a Pokemon with high usage proves that its strong and easily splashable on most teams is clearly unhealthy.

2) By definition a broken Pokemon is a Pokemon that doesn't have a lot of checks and counters. Let's define C&C in 1v1. A check is a Pokemon that can defeat another with a specific set but if it uses another it may lose. A counter is a Pokemon that can defeat another Pokemon no matter what it runs. Ex: Mega Blastoise is a check to Mega Charizard Y if it runs full spdf and mirror coat but Chansey is a counter to Mega Charizard Y as it can always beat it. A pokemon is deemed broken if it defeats at least 2/3 of the metagame with only ONE of its sets, or more than 80% with all of its sets combined without a lot of opportunity loss.

3) We do not judge by playstyle since this is 1v1. If a Pokemon defeats a stall team in 1v1 it shouldn't be looked into due to them having a lot of choices to pick from and being having only two-third of the team stallish doesn't stop the last member from defeating a more offensive Pokemon. Ex: If Mega Charizard Y defeats a stall team made of Mega Venusaur, Jellicent and Mandibuzz it's not the Pokemon that is broken, the team doesn't synergize to defeat common threats in the metagame which is your fault, same goes to offensive teams that loses to Chansey. They are S ranked for a reason.

4) We are not looking to make low ranked Pokemon viable in the metagame by banning high ranked Pokemon. It's not our fault if they weren't gifted with a good stats, and movesets to be viable in 1v1.

5) Please post your arguments smartly, and do not attack someone's else opinion or attack them directly, this is highly discouraged as it lowers your image and make people avoid listening to you. Some guidelines of posting are: Provide the topic of the Pokemon that you think is deemed suspect worthy, discuss it through the tiering philosophy by providing replays, calcs or strong arguments. Your arguments should provide a clear view of the Pokemon and how unhealthy it is, a list of Pokemon that can defeat it and if it has more than one set then list its sets. Don't bring up the kind of sets that are horrendously niche, they should have some amount of usage on the ladder.

6) We, as council, have decided to go with the following philosophy: If one Pokemon is broken due to the element X being unhealthy, we are going to ban only the Pokemon and not the element. But if more than 4 Pokemon are unhealthy due to an element Y, we are going to ban the element Y instead.

7) Being an unpredictable Pokemon shouldn't be a strong trait to base your arguments on but still is a way of view and can be looked on. This is 1v1, it's sure that a lot of Pokemon will have different sets to check their checks and derailing from the norm is always something we should encourage as it helps in giving more life to the metagame. So, let's set up a clear definition of what an unpredictable Pokemon is: It's a Pokemon that can make use of different sets with little to no opportunity cost and still be able to beat half of the metagame with whatever set it runs. Per example an unpredictable Pokemon would be Mega Gyarados as it has a big movepool to pick from, and can adjust itself to beat some Pokemon, but that doesn't make it broken since it comes with some opportunity cost.

8) Staying on the topic of sets, don't bring in discussion niche sets just to prove that this Pokemon is broken since it can adapt easily, it's just not a good base to build on since most Pokemon can also run niche sets to defeat other.

9) Not banning a Pokemon should not be used as an argument to defend the ban or unban of other Pokemon. Example; do not bring in discussion Reshiram cause apparently it is less broken than Zygarde-C, or do not say don't ban Tapu Lele cause it's less broken than Mimikyu.

10) Don't bring up complex bans they are unneeded and just creates more confusion. Per example if Trick+Choice Item is broken it's not the strategy itself but the user that makes it broken, taking per example Chansey and Meloetta. Chansey will defeat Meloetta even if its tricked if the Meloetta lacks Psyshock but if Meloetta has Psyshock it will be able to defeat Chansey.

11) If good arguments are made against a Pokemon the Tier Leader has the right to suspect it, we aren't looking for quick banning Pokemon since the community's opinion is valuable and they make the metagame. If a Pokemon didn't get banned due to a suspect don't re-talk about it even if you still think it's broken, we work on majority.
 
does that mean i have to play sm now or what bro
Nah, I’ll just tell you what to vote, don’t worry.


meloetta.gif

Meloetta @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 16 HP / 12 Def / 252 SpA / 196 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hyper Beam
- Trick
- Psyshock
- Uproar

umbreon.gif

Umbreon @ Fairium Z
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 HP / 188 Def / 64 SpD / 4 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Charm
- Moonlight
- Foul Play
- Toxic

entei.gif

Entei @ Assault Vest
Ability: Pressure
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 252 HP / 172 Atk / 84 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Sacred Fire
- Bulldoze
- Stone Edge
- Extreme Speed

This is the team I was referencing when I mentioned Choice Scarf Meloetta. It’s honestly not a great team, but it’s fairly well balanced, by which I mean to say every member of the team beats a similiar number of Pokémon and is picked fairly often. I got rank 1 with it and used it in game 3 of SM UU vs Level 56. It’s quite fun to play and uses three uncommon Pokémon. One Z-move, but if you think Z-Charm is broken - well, it’s not.

The only reason this had any chance on the ladder is because it beats Tapu Koko 90% of the time and makes it almost impossible not to pick Tapu Koko. That I had a good amount of success with it is just a testament to how often people use Koko. I used a niche counter-team and got rank 1 by cheesing different people over and over. If the meta was more diverse this team would have no chance. It loses to too many good Pokémon.

The focus of the team is Choice Scarf Meloetta. Raimon gave someone else a team with a Choice Scarf Meloetta and they did alright with it, but the team had a Landorus-Therian on it. It made me think, if Scarf Meloetta beats Tapu Koko, all I have to do is use two mons that lose to Tapu Koko and I’ll win every (90%) time my opponent has a Tapu Koko on his team. Everyone thinks Meloetta uses Choice Specs. Shadow Ball doesn’t really beat anything without Specs, so I added Psyshock for Mega-Venusaur, Chansey, and Kommo-o.

Crunch Gyara is more common now that Kyu-B is banned, so I added Umbreon to beat it. It also helps against Zard X, Dragonite, and Mega-Metagross, as well as Pokémon like them, such as Haxorus and Mega-Tyranitar. This is an easy pick against any inexperienced player who doesn’t have Tapu Koko and has a Gyarados.

My biggest worry with the combination of Meloetta and Umbreon was now Mimikyu. I knew I didn’t want to use Charizard as this might stop someone from picking Tapu Koko. So I added Entei, which wouldn’t stop anyone from picking Tapu Koko but could do reasonably well against Mimikyu. I felt somewhat weak to Tapu Lele at this point, so I gave Entei an Assault Vest. I very rarely felt like I needed a Z-Move or any other item really. Stone Edge is there mostly for Charizard, especially Y.
 
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the three broken components of tapu koko are electric terrain, charge, and electrium z, all boosting koko's electric attacks, the problem with this, though, is that its attacking prowess goes too high, and you see stuff like this:
Okay, a 255 base attack Tapu Koko without its key components from being a godsend in 1v1, gives it pitiful calcs like these
252 Atk Tapu Koko Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 415-489 (168 - 197.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (base 255 attack)
Now, with all of Tapu Koko's redeeming qualities being Electric Terrain, Charge, and Electrium Z, give it sooo much viability.
+2 252 Atk Tapu Koko Gigavolt Havoc (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Blacephalon: 415-490 (168 - 198.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Now, this calc might look weird to you at first, seeing that Koko's attack is only a little stronger than the regular attack, but not until you notice that it only has base 29 attack in the calc.
that means that to cut out koko's firepower you have to multiply its attack by 1/4-ish. which is not okay, leading back to the part about how koko can achieve all of this in just one turn, it also has coverage moves which lets it stay alive even longer,
tl;dr, ban koko

JUST NEED TO REFRAIN, 255 ATTACK KOKO VS 29 ATTACK KOKO.
sorry for the short-ish post, i'm bad at these sorts of things
 
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Oh wow! Finally the suspect we have been looking forward to.... TAPU KOKO

My stand: Ban Tapu Koko

Reasoning: Tapu Koko has been some of the meta-defining, overcentralising Pokemon for over a year now. It has Electric Terrain, an ability which boosts Tapu Koko's Electric-type attacks by 50%, and which also makes it immune to sleep for the time the terrain is active on the field. It also gets access to Charge, which doubles the power of Electric-type move used in the next turn. Its sky-high Speed stat of 130 also facilitates faster set up of Charge to wreck about > 50% of the Pokemon. In USUM, it got access to Iron Defense, which increases the Defense by 2 stages which, along with proper investment, allows Tapu Koko to tank about any of the counters to its non-invested sets, like Mega Charizard X, Mega Metagross, and YawnLax. It also gets access to Taunt to shut down stall Pokemon. A combination of all these factors leads to its counters being limited to one of Ground-type Pokemon like Landorus-Therian, Donphan, Golem, very bulky Grass-type Pokemon like Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Electric attack neutralisers like Thundurus-Therian, Mega Sceptile, or faster nukes like scarf Genesect, Meloetta, Porygon-Z, and specs Pheromosa.

A more detailed explanation of what it beats:
The sets are marked as '1' and '2' , if
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Timid Nature
- Wild Charge / Thunderbolt
- Taunt
- Charge
- Substitute

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Def / 92 Spe
Timid Nature / Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Thunderbolt / Wild Charge
Bulkier variants of 2 exists, but this is the only bulky Tapu Koko I know, so......
If I mention
  • '1' near a Pokemon, set 1 reliably beats it.
  • '2' near a Pokemon, set 2 reliably beats it.
  • 'b' near a Pokemon, both sets reliably beat it.
  • 'r' near a Pokemon, a niche set like FairiumZ, Choice Specs beats it
  • 'n' near a Pokemon, no set beats it.
  • 1p means physical variant of 1, 1s means special variant of 1, 2p means physical variant of 2, and 2s means special variant of 2.
And if i mention (f) in brackets, it's a flimsy, uncertain, unreliable matchup
S Rank :
Mega Gyarados - b

Tapu Koko - b(f)

[1/2]
A+ Rank :

Mega Charizard X - 2(f)

Dragonite - 2

Magearna - 1 and 2(f)

Metagross Mega - 2

Mimikyu - 2

[3/5]
A Rank:

Mega Charizard Y - b

Landorus-Therian - r (specs HP ice)

Snorlax
  1. YawnLax - 2p
  2. CurseLax - 1p


Tapu Lele - 2

Zygarde-Complete - r(Fairium Z)

[3/5]
A- Rank
:
Aegislash - b

Genesect - b(f) [loses to scarf Hyper Beam]

Lopunny Mega - 2(f)

Magnezone - n

Mawile Mega - 2

Porygon-Z - b(f) [loses to Choice Scarf]

Slowbro-Mega - b

Mega Venusaur - n

[4/8]
B+ Rank:

Mega Aggron - 2s

Blaziken (-Mega) - 2

Donphan - r (ESeed Reflect)

Gardevoir Mega - b

Golem - r (ESeed Reflect)

Greninja - b(f) [loses to scarf]

Jumpluff - b

Naganadel - n

Pinsir Mega - b

Primarina - b

Tapu Fini - b

[6/11]

B Rank:
Altaria Mega - r(Fairium Z/specs)

Chansey -1p, 2p

Ferrothorn - n

Garchomp - r(f) [loses to ScarfChomp, and wins only if Koko is Fairium Z/specs]

Heatran - b

Heracross Mega - 2

Kartana - 2s

Meloetta - 2p(f) [loses to Scarf]]

Mew - 1(f), 2(f) [uninvested sets lose to Mewnium Z Mew, invested ses lose to stall Mew]

Necrozma - 2

Sableye Mega - 2(f)

Sawk - 2

Tyranitar Mega - 2

[8/13]

B- Rank:
Blastoise Mega - b

Blissey - 1p, 2p(f)

Buzzwole - 2s

Celesteela - b

Crustle - 2s(f)

Diancie Mega - b

Durant - b

Gengar Mega - 1(f)

Hoopa Unbound - 2p(f)

Kommo-o - 1s, 2s(f)

Swampert Mega - r(specs Grass Knot)

Togekiss - b

Whimsicott - 1(f) [loses if Whimsicott has Taunt]

[7/13]

C+ Rank:
Archeops - 2

Avalugg - 2p, 2s(f) [based on predictions on Mirror Coat]

Camerupt Mega - n

Carracosta - 2

Excadrill - n

Gallade Mega - b

Latios Mega - 1(f), 2(f)

Lucario Mega - b

Marowak-Alola - n

Medicham Mega - b

Pheromosa - n

Porygon2 - 1, 2(f)

Scizor Mega - b

Tapu Bulu - n

Terrakion - b

Umbreon - 1p

Victini - 2

Volcarona - 1p, 2p

[10/18]

C Rank:
Blacephalon - b(f) [loses if Scarf Blacephalon]

Deoxys Speed - n

Entei - 2s

Garchomp Mega - r[Fairium Z]

Haxorus - 2, r[Fairium Z}

Hydreigon - r[Fairium, specs]

Infernape - b

Keldeo - b

Landorus - r(f) [Specs, loses if Landorus is Scarf]

Latias Mega - r[Fairium, specs]

Nihilego - 1p, 2p

Ninetails-Alola - b

Pidgeot Mega - b

Relicanth - 2

Thundurus Therian - n

[7/15]

C- Rank:
Hitmonlee - 2

Manectric Mega - n

Pyukumuku - b

Quagsire - r(specs Grass Knot)

Rhyperior - n

Serperior - n

Salazzle - 1

Skarmory - b

Stakataka - 1s(f), 2 [Uninvested Koko loses to AV Stakataka]

Suicune - b

[5/10]

D Rank

Abomasnow Mega - n

Alakazam Mega - 2

Aron - 1

Azumarill - b

Barbaracle - b

Clefable - 1

Dusclops - 1

Sceptile (-Mega) - n

Slaking - 2

Smeargle - b

Stunfisk - n

Type: Null - 1

Vivillon - b

Volcanion - b

[11/14]


The only ranks where one of the two popular sets do not KO more than 50% of the rank is C, and in C rank, there are many rare, niche sets which can deal with the Pokemon which can tank it.... The point here was to show how much of the VR either one of the two famous Koko sets beats, which is (65/109) Pokemon, a good number, excluding niche sets which if included leaves only 17/109 Pokemon from the VR which hard counters Tapu Koko, less than a fifth. This makes it really hard to counter Tapu Koko, and poses a restriction in teambuilder wherein you either choose one or more of these 17 Pokemon or you die to Koko.



Replying to counter-arguments:
1) How is Tapu Koko banworthy without Electrium Z?

A: Without the Electrium Z, Tapu Koko still has access to Charge, Iron Defense, Roost and dual STABs, which is what pushed it to the banworthy side. Nonetheless, there has been a small userbase using Electric Seed Reflect Tapu Koko, and they seem to have had moderate success in the ladder if their word is anything to go by. This means there are sets without the use of Electrium Z, which also is good (though not as good as the Electrium Z set). This is why I feel banning Electrium Z is not the solution.

2) Why can we not ban Z-Moves?

A: Banning Z Moves is not for this discussion, but nonetheless, this is an argument thrown often. The updated ban philosophy states that only if 4 or more Pokemon are broken coz of a concept will the concept be banned. And in the present metagame, nothing else which uses ZMoves is banworthy other than Tapu Koko. Also, Z Move standpoint is a seperate issue from the Tapu Koko discussion, though they seem to be related. This is why I think Z Move ban will not make Tapu Koko less broken.


In conclusion, BAN TAPU KOKO!
 
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ZeroPlasmaFist

Banned deucer.
Oh wow! Finally the suspect we have been looking forward to.... TAPU KOKO

My stand: Ban Tapu Koko

Reasoning: Tapu Koko has been some of the meta-defining, overcentralising Pokemon for over a year now. It has Electric Terrain, an ability which boosts Tapu Koko's Electric-type attacks by 50%, and which also makes it immune to sleep for the time the terrain is active on the field. It also gets access to Charge, which doubles the power of Electric-type move used in the next turn. Its sky-high Speed stat of 130 also facilitates faster set up of Charge to wreck about > 50% of the Pokemon. In USUM, it got access to Iron Defense, which increases the Defense by 2 stages which, along with proper investment, allows Tapu Koko to tank about any of the counters to its non-invested sets, like Mega Charizard X, Mega Metagross, and YawnLax. It also gets access to Taunt to shut down stall Pokemon. A combination of all these factors leads to its counters being limited to one of Ground-type Pokemon like Landorus-Therian, Donphan, Golem, very bulky Grass-type Pokemon like Mega Venusaur, Ferrothorn, Electric attack neutralisers like Thundurus-Therian, Mega Sceptile, or faster nukes like scarf Genesect, Meloetta, Porygon-Z, and specs Pheromosa.

A more detailed explanation of what it beats:
The sets are marked as '1' and '2' , if
Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature / Timid Nature
- Wild Charge / Thunderbolt
- Taunt
- Charge
- Substitute

Tapu Koko @ Electrium Z
Ability: Electric Surge
EVs: 164 HP / 252 Def / 92 Spe
Timid Nature / Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Roost
- Iron Defense
- Charge
- Thunderbolt / Wild Charge
Bulkier variants of 2 exists, but this is the only bulky Tapu Koko I know, so......
If I mention
  • '1' near a Pokemon, set 1 reliably beats it.
  • '2' near a Pokemon, set 2 reliably beats it.
  • 'b' near a Pokemon, both sets reliably beat it.
  • 'r' near a Pokemon, a niche set like FairiumZ, Choice Specs beats it
  • 'n' near a Pokemon, no set beats it.
  • 1p means physical variant of 1, 1s means special variant of 1, 2p means physical variant of 2, and 2s means special variant of 2.
And if i mention (f) in brackets, it's a flimsy, uncertain, unreliable matchup
S Rank :
Mega Gyarados - b

Tapu Koko - b(f)

[1/2]
A+ Rank :

Mega Charizard X - 2(f)

Dragonite - 2

Magearna - 1 and 2(f)

Metagross Mega - 2

Mimikyu - 2

[3/5]
A Rank:

Mega Charizard Y - b

Landorus-Therian - r (specs HP ice)

Snorlax
  1. YawnLax - 2p
  2. CurseLax - 1p


Tapu Lele - 2

Zygarde-Complete - r(Fairium Z)

[3/5]
A- Rank
:
Aegislash - b

Genesect - b(f) [loses to scarf Hyper Beam]

Lopunny Mega - 2(f)

Magnezone - n

Mawile Mega - 2

Porygon-Z - b(f) [loses to Choice Scarf]

Slowbro-Mega - b

Mega Venusaur - n

[4/8]
B+ Rank:

Mega Aggron - 2s

Blaziken (-Mega) - 2

Donphan - r (ESeed Reflect)

Gardevoir Mega - b

Golem - r (ESeed Reflect)

Greninja - b(f) [loses to scarf]

Jumpluff - b

Naganadel - n

Pinsir Mega - b

Primarina - b

Tapu Fini - b

[6/11]

B Rank:
Altaria Mega - r(Fairium Z/specs)

Chansey -1p, 2p

Ferrothorn - n

Garchomp - r(f) [loses to ScarfChomp, and wins only if Koko is Fairium Z/specs]

Heatran - b

Heracross Mega - 2

Kartana - 2s

Meloetta - 2p(f) [loses to Scarf]]

Mew - 1(f), 2(f) [uninvested sets lose to Mewnium Z Mew, invested ses lose to stall Mew]

Necrozma - 2

Sableye Mega - 2(f)

Sawk - 2

Tyranitar Mega - 2

[8/13]

B- Rank:
Blastoise Mega - b

Blissey - 1p, 2p(f)

Buzzwole - 2s

Celesteela - b

Crustle - 2s(f)

Diancie Mega - b

Durant - b

Gengar Mega - 1(f)

Hoopa Unbound - 2p(f)

Kommo-o - 1s, 2s(f)

Swampert Mega - r(specs Grass Knot)

Togekiss - b

Whimsicott - 1(f) [loses if Whimsicott has Taunt]

[7/13]

C+ Rank:
Archeops - 2

Avalugg - 2p, 2s(f) [based on predictions on Mirror Coat]

Camerupt Mega - n

Carracosta - 2

Excadrill - n

Gallade Mega - b

Latios Mega - 1(f), 2(f)

Lucario Mega - b

Marowak-Alola - n

Medicham Mega - b

Pheromosa - n

Porygon2 - 1, 2(f)

Scizor Mega - b

Tapu Bulu - n

Terrakion - b

Umbreon - 1p

Victini - 2

Volcarona - 1p, 2p

[10/18]

C Rank:
Blacephalon - b(f) [loses if Scarf Blacephalon]

Deoxys Speed - n

Entei - 2s

Garchomp Mega - r[Fairium Z]

Haxorus - 2, r[Fairium Z}

Hydreigon - r[Fairium, specs]

Infernape - b

Keldeo - b

Landorus - r(f) [Specs, loses if Landorus is Scarf]

Latias Mega - r[Fairium, specs]

Nihilego - 1p, 2p

Ninetails-Alola - b

Pidgeot Mega - b

Relicanth - 2

Thundurus Therian - n

[7/15]

C- Rank:
Hitmonlee - 2

Manectric Mega - n

Pyukumuku - b

Quagsire - r(specs Grass Knot)

Rhyperior - n

Serperior - n

Salazzle - 1

Skarmory - b

Stakataka - 1s(f), 2 [Uninvested Koko loses to AV Stakataka]

Suicune - b

[5/10]

D Rank

Abomasnow Mega - n

Alakazam Mega - 2

Aron - 1

Azumarill - b

Barbaracle - b

Clefable - 1

Dusclops - 1

Sceptile (-Mega) - n

Slaking - 2

Smeargle - b

Stunfisk - n

Type: Null - 1

Vivillon - b

Volcanion - b

[11/14]


The only ranks where one of the two popular sets do not KO more than 50% of the rank is C, and in C rank, there are many rare, niche sets which can deal with the Pokemon which can tank it.... The point here was to show how much of the VR either one of the two famous Koko sets beats, which is (65/109) Pokemon, a good number, excluding niche sets which if included leaves only 17/109 Pokemon from the VR which hard counters Tapu Koko, less than a fifth. This makes it really hard to counter Tapu Koko, and poses a restriction in teambuilder wherein you either choose one or more of these 17 Pokemon or you die to Koko.



Replying to counter-arguments:
1) How is Tapu Koko banworthy without Electrium Z?

A: Without the Electrium Z, Tapu Koko still has access to Charge, Iron Defense, Roost and dual STABs, which is what pushed it to the banworthy side. Nonetheless, there has been a small userbase using Electric Seed Reflect Tapu Koko, and they seem to have had moderate success in the ladder if their word is anything to go by. This means there are sets without the use of Electrium Z, which also is good (though not as good as the Electrium Z set). This is why I feel banning Electrium Z is not the solution.

2) Why can we not ban Z-Moves?

A: Banning Z Moves is not for this discussion, but nonetheless, this is an argument thrown often. The updated ban philosophy states that only if 4 or more Pokemon are broken coz of a concept will the concept be banned. And in the present metagame, nothing else which uses ZMoves is banworthy other than Tapu Koko. Also, Z Move standpoint is a seperate issue from the Tapu Koko discussion, though they seem to be related. This is why I think Z Move ban will not make Tapu Koko less broken.


In conclusion, BAN TAPU KOKO!
So can we actually start the suspect or something? I'm getting bored reading all the different arguments that are trying to be fair to both sides (and failing). JUST BAN IT OR SUSPECT IT ALREADY
 

Osra

Hex girl
is a Pre-Contributor
So can we actually start the suspect or something? I'm getting bored reading all the different arguments that are trying to be fair to both sides (and failing). JUST BAN IT OR SUSPECT IT ALREADY
This IS the suspect.

Due to an overwhelming number of voters who did not take their voting privileges seriously, as well as the removal of the COIL ranking from PS! servers, the suspect system we had prior was disposed of, and we instead implemented a system of council voting, where a combination of tier leaders and temporary council members that compose of people within the 1v1 community get to decide on whether a suspected Pokemon, Item, Ability, or whatever gets banned/unbanned or not, by simple majority vote.

As a non-council user, your role in suspect tests are to try and convince the 9 council members as to whether they should vote ban/unban or not. While potentially susceptible to the personal bias/thought processes of the council members, this system is the only means of suspect testing (that still involves the community in some way) that we have available right now. Hopefully in the near future, the main leadership council will come to a conclusion on how to rework the public voting suspect test system without the involvement of COIL.
 

ZeroPlasmaFist

Banned deucer.
This IS the suspect.

Due to an overwhelming number of voters who did not take their voting privileges seriously, as well as the removal of the COIL ranking from PS! servers, the suspect system we had prior was disposed of, and we instead implemented a system of council voting, where a combination of tier leaders and temporary council members that compose of people within the 1v1 community get to decide on whether a suspected Pokemon, Item, Ability, or whatever gets banned/unbanned or not, by simple majority vote.

As a non-council user, your role in suspect tests are to try and convince the 9 council members as to whether they should vote ban/unban or not. While potentially susceptible to the personal bias/thought processes of the council members, this system is the only means of suspect testing (that still involves the community in some way) that we have available right now. Hopefully in the near future, the main leadership council will come to a conclusion on how to rework the public voting suspect test system without the involvement of COIL.
Right. Here is my persuasion.
S Rank




Gyarados-Mega
Gigavolt win



Tapu Koko
n/a

A+ Rank



Charizard-Mega-X
charge followed by gigvolt wins, but you wont have the chance. Probs lose



Dragonite
Win. Can barely touch defense evs.



Magearna
-win



Metagross-Mega
-unless specifically a koko counter



Mimikyu
-Curse is lost, but z attacks win(iron defense)

A Rank



Charizard-Mega-Y
-well.... jk win



Landorus-Therian
-if hp ice



Snorlax
- if 252+ phys



Tapu Lele
-Scarf Lele is a meme, but is otherwise countered



Zygarde-Complete
-if fairium(which isnt that bad tbh)

A- Rank



Aegislash
-win



Genesect
-win


Lopunny-Mega
-if lots of defense



Magnezone
-Sturdy sures helps magnezone out but cant do much unless steelium.


Mawile-Mega
-Play rough kills but koko's faster. win



Porygon-Z
-win unless scarf


Slowbro-Mega
-win if special


Venusaur-Mega
-if flyingium(dont use) but otherwise a counter

B+ Rank


Aggron-Mega
-charge special defo wins




Blaziken
-win if lots of defense(run lots of defense)



Donphan
-ID roost wins unless all electric(run grass knot or smth)


Gardevoir-Mega
-win



Golem
-Same case as Phan



Greninja
-Sscarf hp ground wins


Jumpluff
-if faster win



Naganadel
- What scarf? Where? but still loses


Pinsir-Mega
-win



Primarina
-win



Tapu Fini
-Fwin

B Rank


Altaria-Mega
-if fairium win, otherwise must have special and charge(although if they hit beam/impact you lose)


Chansey
-taunt
charge
probably get a forfeit but win if physical



Ferrothorn
-ugh



Garchomp
-hp ice



Heatran
-probably win


Heracross-Mega
-fairium defo, but probs win with gigavolt



Kartana
-if special win except for scarf (>leftovers kartana



Meloetta
-win if phys, probs win if special



Mew
-win unless you're me ;D
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen71v1-736440482




Necrozma
-win



Sableye-Mega
-charge win



Sawk
-lose if they have lvl 1 sturdy and predict you're physical


Tyranitar-Mega
-win

B- Rank


Blastoise-Mega
-win



Blissey
-same as chansey



Buzzwole
-if special win, if physical lose



Celesteela
-win (let's get out scarf celesteela boiiii)



Crustle
-if defense evs and taunt win


Diancie-Mega
-win unless they stay non-mega
where you probably also win



Durant
-screw uop's scarf durant; otherwise, win


Gengar-Mega
-if max speed, win the speed tie then you win. aka lose



Hoopa-Unbound
-win



Kommo-o
-if fairium defo win, but they can't touch you unless bulldoze.


Swampert-Mega
-If grass knot



Togekiss
-screw life


Whimsicott
-lets use hp ice again aka lose

C+ Rank



Archeops
-win unless scarf EQ



Avalugg
-ugh


Camerupt-Mega
-hp water let's GO



Carracosta
-win, win and win



Excadrill
-Scarf can kill, and so can everything else


Gallade-Mega
-win



Latios
-man i'm beginning to hate dragons and ground types. i have to think of resons why koko wins somehow


Lucario-Mega
-win


Marowak-Alola
-win


Medicham-Mega
-win



Pheromosa
-screwed. hope for phys and 252hp 252+ defense. jk lose


Porygon2
-taunt charge. kabloom


Scizor-Mega
-unless you run that set somewhere else in the resources that bulks, you win



Tapu Bulu
-probably a lose. crit hp ice and you win



Terrakion
-win



Umbreon
-same as pretty much every other wall in 1v1(taunt, charge, kabloom)



Victini
-win. Maybe scarf vcreate but thats low ladder



Volcarona
-win unless it runs that special defense set and you're special

C Rank



Blacephalon
-scarf lose, every single other set, win



Deoxys-S
- taunt beats stall, but specs boost make you lose. a lot.



Entei
-win



Garchomp-Mega
-hp ice and fairium wins



Haxorus
-fairium wins, but scarf can win(eq)



Hydreigon
-if scarf EP lose, but fairium wins


Infernape
-win. no scarves exist



Keldeo
-win


Landorus
-hp ice wins, lose otherwise


Latias-Mega
-same as it's non mega



Nihilego
-if phys win, otherwise lose



Ninetales-Alola
-win


Pidgeot-Mega
-sub still lets you win



Relicanth
-screw sturdy



Thundurus-Therian
-screw volt absorb

C- Rank


Hitmonlee
-win


Manectric-Mega
-i actually think this is better than koko, but you lose to double overheat



Pyukumuku
-sub/taunt. y'know add sub as another way to win to every stall mon



Quagsire
-taunt / sub. need grass knot



Rhyperior
-the same



Serperior
-probs lose


Salazzle
-win



Skarmory
-win



Stakataka
-if special



Suicune
-win


D Rank


Abomasnow-Mega
-lose


Alakazam-Mega
-ugh


Aron
-screwed loss



Azumarill
-win



Barbaracle
-win



Clefable
-win


Dusclops
-taunt/ sub





Sceptile
-you know the drill



Slaking
-sub attempts to attack you



Smeargle
-win


Stunfisk
-probs always lose


Type: Null
-taunt/sub win


Vivillon
-win



Volcanion
-win

ok....... now i've made that, i can see it doesn't actually beat a lot, even with me stretching the moveset a lot. Dont' ban, but keep in s rank. It can probably only beat 1/4 of the meta with any one set. It is definitely a very good mon, its just that there are so many ways to beat it and still be able to beat a lot of the rest of the metagame with that set. I'll leave it to other people to decide whether it's uncompetitive; I'm usually the person who trolls people.
 
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