Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
I'm sure some of you have already noticed the hyperlinks in the VR. These links bring you to a pokepaste such as this one. I believe it's much more convenient than using a google doc or a spoiler tag, not to mention everyone can see the Pokemon's VR as they browse through each analysis. This is an important step to making Suicide Cup more accessible to newcomers! If you'd like to help write new sets for the set compendium, feel free to tag me and post it in this thread. The only thing I expect is that you solely post viable sets, and that the description is well written.
I also want to welcome our latest member to the Suicide Cup Council, NOC Unlucky 13! Congratulations!
Also I just wanted to point out that the stall player is leading a meta where the point is to kill all your mons.
But anyway, new player here. Is there any way to counter perish song strategies? I’ve been experimenting with soundproof, but I’m not really sure if it has enough utility outside of song.
Also I just wanted to point out that the stall player is leading a meta where the point is to kill all your mons.
But anyway, new player here. Is there any way to counter perish song strategies? I’ve been experimenting with soundproof, but I’m not really sure if it has enough utility outside of song.
Generally, phazing works pretty well. The problem is the rise in Mega Absol's usage at the moment; it's pretty tough to beat Mega Absol teams, simply because Magic Bounce prevents phazing. Probably the best way of beating it is to just kill the perish trapper, which can get risky on a bad read. It's pretty tough to deal with in general, but proper plays can go a long way to getting the victory.
Speaking of Mega Absol, I'd like to suggest it being A rank on our Viability Ranking: while its a very huge threat, it requires a team to be built around it for its maximum potential. With that said, Mega Absol teams can feel almost unstoppable, something that few teams can accomplish. These teams heavily rely upon Mega Absol, and Mega Absol, its team. Often times, the death of Mega Absol means game over, while allowing it to go on its rampage is very easy.
Another Pokemon I have experimented with recently is Illumise; I find it criminal that it isn't ranked alongside Volbeat, since the main difference is that Volbeat learns Trick, while Illumise has a much weaker Struggle. Additionally, Illumise gets Oblivious, which allows for some interesting mind games. I'd argue that it's equal with Volbeat on the Viability Ranking. With Oblivious, its almost impossible for it to be stopped without using Trick, while with Prankster, Illumise is essentially a faster Accelgor, with access to Thunder Wave. So, it's definitely worth being ranked.
So, I guess my thoughts on the VR are that:
Mega Absol: Unranked ----> A rank.
Illumise: Unranked ----> A rank.
I guess I should start writing up some analysis' to get this VR project off the ground, and finished sometime before this metagame can run for OMotM.
(There goes my first post on this thread after becoming a member of the council, hopefully it wasn't too trashy)
Also I just wanted to point out that the stall player is leading a meta where the point is to kill all your mons.
But anyway, new player here. Is there any way to counter perish song strategies? I’ve been experimenting with soundproof, but I’m not really sure if it has enough utility outside of song.
So I've actually been experimenting on ways in which Absol-Mega can be countered. I've tried Dugtrio, as it's able to set Stealth Rock unimpeded, but Dugtrio isn't very useful outside of this strategy. I've also used Espeon with Baton Pass, which is honestly nothing new. And then, it dawned on me.... my experience as a BH player made me realize how significant of a threat Ditto can be.
Ditto @ Black Sludge
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Transform
I present to you my thought process regarding Ditto's viability:
Smeargle is the best Pokemon in Suicide Cup.
Ditto can transform into Smeargle, which effectively gives you two Mind Blown users.
Ditto can copy Magic Bounce from Mega Absol and Baton Pass Perish Song to its teammates as well.
Mega Absol's greatest flaw is its lack of a usable item slot.
Ditto can use a Black Sludge , unlike Mega Absol.
Ditto becomes Mega Absol 2.0.
Ditto is very safe, as Smeargle, Mega Absol and many other Pokemon usually allow Ditto to safely faint.
Ditto always has a low HP stat.
Ditto allows you to scout for the opponent's moves.
Ditto is also an effective switch-in to Trick Sableye when it does not have a Substitute yet.
Ditto's potential is infinite. I recommend everyone to try it out!
Strategy is simple: Deoxys uses Nasty Plot, then OHKOs five mons. Taunt the last mon, then they can't help killing you. Keep them Taunted for the rest of the game. Alakazam uses Skill Swap, then the only damage your opponent takes is recoil from Struggle. Once you manage to give them Magic Guard, winning is as simple as meeting these three conditions: don't lose a toxic orb before it activates, don't let your opponent use any status moves (unless you're using protect that turn), and don't let your opponent die from Struggle recoil. I recommend giving at least one filler mon some offensive power in case Deoxys gets killed early. Scary Face is there because there aren't many fast Taunt+Heal Pulse users.
I don't know if this strategy is as good as it sounds - pranksters/mons faster than Alakazam have the potential to ruin it, same for Mental Herb, and if your opponent sees this strategy coming and decides to just kill Deoxys turn 1, you're probably not in great shape - but it does sound like fun, and it's about as anti-meta as a strategy can possibly be.
Strategy is simple: Deoxys uses Nasty Plot, then OHKOs five mons. Taunt the last mon, then they can't help killing you. Keep them Taunted for the rest of the game. Alakazam uses Skill Swap, then the only damage your opponent takes is recoil from Struggle. Once you manage to give them Magic Guard, winning is as simple as meeting these three conditions: don't lose a toxic orb before it activates, don't let your opponent use any status moves (unless you're using protect that turn), and don't let your opponent die from Struggle recoil. I recommend giving at least one filler mon some offensive power in case Deoxys gets killed early. Scary Face is there because there aren't many fast Taunt+Heal Pulse users.
I don't know if this strategy is as good as it sounds - pranksters/mons faster than Alakazam have the potential to ruin it, same for Mental Herb, and if your opponent sees this strategy coming and decides to just kill Deoxys turn 1, you're probably not in great shape - but it does sound like fun, and it's about as anti-meta as a strategy can possibly be.
That is what I call a recipe for getting flawless victories. I really love using the Goth line to trap Deo-A, then swapping to everything to get them killed. Seriously, I hope people use this when this gets OMotM, it'll make laddering really hilarious and easy. I mean, its not like the Goth line is one of the most common Pokemon in the meta, or even one of the best, you know.
Honestly, if the Goth line wasn't so popular, I'd say this'd be absolutely hilarious to try. Like I said, however, the Goth line is simply too popular and too strong for this to work too well. This strategy would be hilarious to use, however, just don't expect positive results.
So I've actually been experimenting on ways in which Absol-Mega can be countered. I've tried Dugtrio, as it's able to set Stealth Rock unimpeded, but Dugtrio isn't very useful outside of this strategy. I've also used Espeon with Baton Pass, which is honestly nothing new. And then, it dawned on me.... my experience as a BH player made me realize how significant of a threat Ditto can be.
Ditto @ Black Sludge
Ability: Imposter
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Transform
I present to you my thought process regarding Ditto's viability:
Smeargle is the best Pokemon in Suicide Cup.
Ditto can transform into Smeargle, which effectively gives you two Mind Blown users.
Ditto can copy Magic Bounce from Mega Absol and Baton Pass Perish Song to its teammates as well.
Mega Absol's greatest flaw is its lack of a usable item slot.
Ditto can use a Black Sludge , unlike Mega Absol.
Ditto becomes Mega Absol 2.0.
Ditto is very safe, as Smeargle, Mega Absol and many other Pokemon usually allow Ditto to safely faint.
Ditto always has a low HP stat.
Ditto allows you to scout for the opponent's moves.
Ditto is also an effective switch-in to Trick Sableye when it does not have a Substitute yet.
Ditto's potential is infinite. I recommend everyone to try it out!
Oh god, I have to say, Ditto is actually pretty good. I slapped it on my new team (more on that later) which didn't seem to be able to fit anything else onto it. I slapped Ditto onto it, and it has been working like a charm. I do want to say, however, I personally believe that Ditto is only as good as the opponent's team is. For instance, if the opponent is using a team that is hard to suicide, Ditto will be a pain in the ass to suicide. Generally, you'll find that this won't happen, and Ditto will be a pretty easy suicide. I'd say its a high tier myself, but it can't be used too carelessly.
I'd like to touch on Trick/Switcheroo, which, personally, I'm not a fan of. I've gone back and forth on my stance on this (originally feeling indifferent towards it), but my current stance is that it sucks to fight Trick spam. I've used Trick spam, and I've fought it, and both ways, it feels cheap. With that said, I wouldn't say its banworthy yet, just something we might want to watch out for. Losing a game because one of your Pokemon got tricked a non-damaging item is never fun, and it gives you a sour feeling. I had an experience that would've lead to this if my opponent had the time to continue the battle, click here to view it. To be fair, I also didn't help, using Trick myself, but the point is that it leads to un-fun experiences.
You may notice in that battle that I'm trying some new stuff, like Ditto and AlolaWak. Most interestingly (to me, anyway) is Trick Room. I always wanted to try Trick Room in Suicide Cup, but every time I tried, I couldn't get it to feel enjoyable, and it always let me down. It always feels like you lose to some strategy or another. When I added Ditto to the mix, well, it seemed to get a lot more enjoyable. Another thing you may notice is the severe lack of Smeargle. Wait, an Suicide Cup team without Smeargle? What is this sorcery? Well, its just something I've been playing around with. So far, it has been treating me well, but I don't have a ton of experience with it yet, so it could be subject to change. Just some food for thought; maybe Smeargle isn't required after all.
Losing a game because one of your Pokemon got tricked a non-damaging item is never fun, and it gives you a sour feeling. I had an experience that would've lead to this if my opponent had the time to continue the battle, click here to view it. To be fair, I also didn't help, using Trick myself, but the point is that it leads to un-fun experiences.
I think it probably hurts more when it's something unexpected like scarfed Xatu because it's hard to plan for. I should have been way more prepared for Sableye swap considering 1. it's known for Pecha Trick, 2. running Moltres in the first place was a dumb Stealth Rock meme, 3. I had things that could die without an item (Charizard) to send in instead and didn't, 4. I could have killed Charizard on rocks to scout anyway, 5. I should have killed Moltres on rocks straight away afterwards, not realising you could Defog (I guess this is why I didn't care about getting Tricked too much at the time).
I'm very prone to abusing Trick, but it is also a risky strategy considering that you might never be able to remove the item and end up being stuck unkillable. I think there are enough counter-plays like Sticky Hold and running Trick on your own mons (even if they don't have a damaging item). You could get screwed in the endgame if you, say, kill Accelgor too early, but if the opponent leaves their Trick reveal late it becomes even more risky for them.
Also, got to say... Ditto = gud, Deoxys = bad. If the opponent's last Poke has Magic Coat, Magic Bounce, Prankster, a dummy attack like Snore or other common features of good teams, they won't be shut down by Taunt. And considering they can pick what to leave standing, it's extremely likely there will be something that counters it at the end. There might be some way to pull off the sweep and isolate strat (Skill-swapping something like Rain Dish and setting Grassy Terrain until you can Trick away their item, maybe) but I think it will still be very hard-pressed. It also seems essential for the sweeper (and probably most/all of the team) to have Baton Pass.
I want to announce that I will be removing the arbitrary four move clause. This was an old rule I enforced back in Gen 5, and, in hindsight, I don't think this rule was necessary. Having only one or two moves does not make a Pokemon broken. I apologise for my unprofessionality. This decision will set a precedent where new policy will not be implemented unless they are wholly logical. Thank you for understanding.
I think its time to bump this thread a little, its gone pretty inactive for around five days, so....Let's get some posts coming. ^__^
I've been playing around with Alolan Marowak and SubPass, which go together like peanut butter and jelly. Alolan Marowak can kill itself in 2 turns with Curse and Belly Drum, but it is very, very slow, and is very Taunt weak. Although its speed is an issue you will have to find ways to get around (Tailwind, Trick Room, etc.) the issue of Taunt can be dealt with by Mental Herb. This is the main set I've been working around with, give or take.
Marowak-Alola @ Mental Herb
Ability: Lightning Rod / Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty / Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Curse
- Snore / Protect / Sandstorm
- Substitute
Mental Herb blocks Taunt, plain and simple, that's the only reason it's there. Speed is speed, that shouldn't be difficult to figure out. The nature doesn't really matter, as long as it increases speed; Timid also works, as it reduces the power of potential Struggles after Belly Drum. The ability is kinda filler to be honest, but there are some situations where they will come in handy; Lightning Rod blocks Thunder Wave, which is one of the most frustrating moves in the metagame that isn't Trick/Switcheroo, while Cursed Body *can* prevent Smeargle from killing itself due to Mind Blown. The last major thing I want to talk about is the third moveslot; Sandstorm is useful if you need something to help kill the rest of your Pokemon, but is relatively useless on Alolan Marowak, since Curse kills it anyway. The next slot, Protect, is still kinda useless, but at least it blocks Taunt and Encore, so you don't need to use up your Mental Herb. Snore is probably the most useful, as it prevents the opponent from exploiting Alolan Marowak's Struggle to essentially wipe out there team. Honestly, it's a bit of a tough call, but Snore wins out in my mind.
I have used this on Trick Room, but the speed aspect barely matters as long as you get a Substitute up. Getting a Substitute is pretty tough for Marowak, however, so you'll want a fast SubPasser. This may scream Accelgor, but it's not the only one, just the safest against Trick/Switcheroo/Purify Smeargle. I've already brought up Illumise as well, and it might get along the best with the ability to bluff Oblivious/Prankster, with the main issue being the inability to possess both abilities at once. Espeon, and by extension, Mega Absol, also do a great job, giving the ability to be fast AF AND pass a Substitute relatively safely. I'd argue Espeon would be better, due to the ability to hold an item, but if you want to use Mega Absol, then you might as well run Marowak as well.
Anyway, I'll leave the thread for now (I have a pretty good team, but that team is staying mine, I'm not sharing!), hopefully this will bump the thread enough that it will be resurrected.
I think Trick Room will help out Marowak out quite a bit because otherwise it might get Taunted on the Curse turn, after it has already expended its Mental Herb during Belly Drum. Then again, TR isn't going to be any use against a Prankster... Sub support and Lightning Rod seem highly desirable, as Thunder Wave and Tricked Leftovers are crippling for it.
I think Espeon would be the preferred and perhaps only viable Magic Bounce SubPasser for Marowak. For an Absol team, Decidueye would likely have much better synergy than Marowak due to its exclusive access to the Ghost-Curse + Baton Pass combo, allowing it to efficiently spend a Perish incubation turn Cursing itself to half HP before passing the Perish on and killing a full-health teammate (even better if it's something that can phaze out an opponent that might have both Perish and Curse status). Decidueye can then come back in later on and finish itself off in one more turn with another Curse, without the need to start a new Perish countdown (it also has access to Tailwind if that seems to be the better use of a Perish countdown turn).
I think Trick Room will help out Marowak out quite a bit because otherwise it might get Taunted on the Curse turn, after it has already expended its Mental Herb during Belly Drum. Then again, TR isn't going to be any use against a Prankster... Sub support and Lightning Rod seem highly desirable, as Thunder Wave and Tricked Leftovers are crippling for it.
I think Espeon would be the preferred and perhaps only viable Magic Bounce SubPasser for Marowak. For an Absol team, Decidueye would likely have much better synergy than Marowak due to its exclusive access to the Ghost-Curse + Baton Pass combo, allowing it to efficiently spend a Perish incubation turn Cursing itself to half HP before passing the Perish on and killing a full-health teammate (even better if it's something that can phaze out an opponent that might have both Perish and Curse status). Decidueye can then come back in later on and finish itself off in one more turn with another Curse, without the need to start a new Perish countdown (it also has access to Tailwind if that seems to be the better use of a Perish countdown turn).
God, I completely forgot about Decidueye. If I remembered, then maybe I wouldn't have mentioned Alolan Marowak on Mega Absol teams. But you are definitely correct when it comes to Trick Room, that's where I've been using it mostly. Being safe from fast Taunts is a godsend for Marowak, and although it doesn't protect from Prankster Taunts, it's better than nothing. And yes, Espeon is definitely preferred over Mega Absol, and the only reason I'd say it's the best is because Xatu/Natu can't get Baton Pass and Magic Bounce at the same time...
Big changes! I'd like to thank T-Lukke for creating this absolutely fantastic banner. Nothing could make me happier! We're also probably going to update the VR within this week.
Because Adrian didn't want to double post, he asked me to update you guys on the Viablity Ranking situation. You've no doubt questioned some of the current ranking, particularly Mewtwo being A, and some Pokemon (like cancer lizard AKA Salazzle) not even being ranked. Well, through technical issues and the plethora of self distractions we've had, we've finally fully updated the VR, with some of said changes. We still don't have a C ranking (not enough Pokemon belong there so far), but other than that, its pretty good. Just a couple of the changes (by a couple, I mean most of them)
Ditto: Unranked ---> A+
Lickilicky Family: A ---> A+
Mewtwo: A ---> A+
Cancer LizardSalazzle: Unranked ---> A+
Illumise: Unranked ---> A
Murkrow: A- ---> A+
Walrein Family: A+ ---> A
Mega Absol: Unranked ---> A-
Hawlucha: Unranked ---> A-
Zoroark: Unranked ---> A-
Swampert: Unranked ---> B+
Gulpin: Unranked ---> B
Minun: Unranked ---> B
Dugrio: Unranked ---> B-
Ninetales: Unranked ---> B-
And those are all the changes I remember, hopefully I didn't miss any other changes!
So here's a new way to screw with PerishPass if you're counting on Taunt and Magic Bounce to prevent phazing: Dragon Tail. Luckily Tapu Bulu could absorb it for me but setting up with Absol becomes extremely difficult. A secondary, fairy-typed Perish setter might be mandatory if this becomes popular.
I’ve been having fun with this meta and I’d like to share some fun sets.
Xerneas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Ingrain
- Roar
- Substitute
- Hail/Protect
This is a mon that both works on a perish song team and against one. Ingrain makes sure you can’t be phased out, Roar phases out other mons, and Substitute and Hail are for taking damage. This mon can be screwed over if you Ingrain on the wrong turn, for example if you get Tricked a Lum when you ingrain. Protect is another option to ensure you get poisoned or to scout or count down the perish counter. This mon seems decent, please tell me if it needs any changes or has major flaws. Venasuar also has Roar+Ingrain and can do the same thing, just replace a few things.
Edit: You must have 3 perfect IVs, just keep that in mind if you decide to use this mon.
Riolu @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Copycat
- Substitute
- Roar/Filler
- Filler
The gimmick is switching in on Smeargle’s mind blown and then copycating. Pretty simple. Seems kinda niche but it’s fun.
Zangoose @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Boost
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Filler
Just a Belly Drum suicide mon but w/ Taunt. It’s OK, doesn’t do much different than Zard.
I’m having fun with this tier and I hope it continues to grow.
I’ve been having fun with this meta and I’d like to share some fun sets.
Xerneas @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Fairy Aura
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Ingrain
- Roar
- Substitute
- Hail/Protect
This is a mon that both works on a perish song team and against one. Ingrain makes sure you can’t be phased out, Roar phases out other mons, and Substitute and Hail are for taking damage. This mon can be screwed over if you Ingrain on the wrong turn, for example if you get Tricked a Lum when you ingrain. Protect is another option to ensure you get poisoned or to scout or count down the perish counter. This mon seems decent, please tell me if it needs any changes or has major flaws. Venasuar also has Roar+Ingrain and can do the same thing, just replace a few things.
Edit: You must have 3 perfect IVs, just keep that in mind if you decide to use this mon.
Riolu @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Copycat
- Substitute
- Roar/Filler
- Filler
The gimmick is switching in on Smeargle’s mind blown and then copycating. Pretty simple. Seems kinda niche but it’s fun.
Zangoose @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Toxic Boost
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Filler
Just a Belly Drum suicide mon but w/ Taunt. It’s OK, doesn’t do much different than Zard.
I’m having fun with this tier and I hope it continues to grow.
That Xerneas is absolutely hilarious to be honest, it could be absolutely awesome to lose to it. I have no real qualms with that set. Now, Riolu seems horrible, since Copycat+Roar doesn't work anymore, and if it did work, it wouldn't on Dark types. At least, that's what popped into my mind at first glance. I understand that you are using Copycat to beat Smeargle, but many, many mons already do that better (Sunkern and Damp Politoed come into mind instantly). The Zangoose is actually kinda similar to the Pokemon I want to talk about, although the one I wanted to talk about doesn't have Belly Drum, but happens to be a helluva lot faster. Also, Charizard doesn't get Taunt, so that's Zangoose's niche over Zard. The issue is that the counters are very similar, but Zangoose is actually slower (base 100 for Charizard, base 90 for Zangoose), and also kills everything when Taunted. In general Belly Drummers prefer Black Sludge, but that's kinda a little nitpick.
As for the Pokemon I wanted to talk about, I bring you the future of mid-game fast taunters!
Decent At Last (Mightyena) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid / Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Snatch
- Roar
Yes, that name is something I stand by 100%. This thing is actually decent, and that's due to a combination of a few things; with Quick Feet, Mewtwo just barely outspeeds by 1 point. Yep, you end up with a nice speed value of 393, which is fast enough to outspeed many threats in the meta and dish out a Taunt. Where this thing shines is it's Dark typing; with Dark type, you flat out ignore Pranksters, and since you outspeed most common Trick Pokemon, you don't really have to worry about losing the Quick Feet boost, as long as you switch it in safely (which can occasionally be tricky), which makes it one of the safest fast Taunts in the meta. The moveset is sadly limited, however, and unless you go with Mimic or something, your set is going to look something like this. Thankfully, said set is fairly rock solid; Taunt is amazing, forcing Pokemon to attack you, ad prevent a whole plethora of annoying moves from going off. Substitute is substitute, no real mystery there. Snatch steals opposing Substitute and Belly Drums, which both slow down the opponent's team and speeds up Mightyena's death. Roar is mostly just filler, but it can be useful against PerishPass teams.
The main issue Mightyena has is that it HATES switching in. To solve this issue, you'll want to have Substitute+Baton Pass on your side, so make sure to slap Espeon and/or Accelgor on your team when you use Mightyena. I recommend Espeon, because Magic Bounce allows it to deflect incoming Taunts, which is always useful. It is also fairly good at countering Prankster's, Mewtwo's worst nemesis, so you *can* use it with Mewtwo. I personally haven't, I find Mightyena perfectly viable as a standalone Pokemon on my Sub+Baton Pass team, but it's there if you want to do so. Honestly, I don't have much else to say about this magnificent beast, except that it takes more skill than cancer lizard, yet fulfills a similar niche. Basically, its a more enjoyable Salazzle.
That Xerneas is absolutely hilarious to be honest, it could be absolutely awesome to lose to it. I have no real qualms with that set. Now, Riolu seems horrible, since Copycat+Roar doesn't work anymore, and if it did work, it wouldn't on Dark types. At least, that's what popped into my mind at first glance. I understand that you are using Copycat to beat Smeargle, but many, many mons already do that better (Sunkern and Damp Politoed come into mind instantly). The Zangoose is actually kinda similar to the Pokemon I want to talk about, although the one I wanted to talk about doesn't have Belly Drum, but happens to be a helluva lot faster. Also, Charizard doesn't get Taunt, so that's Zangoose's niche over Zard. The issue is that the counters are very similar, but Zangoose is actually slower (base 100 for Charizard, base 90 for Zangoose), and also kills everything when Taunted. In general Belly Drummers prefer Black Sludge, but that's kinda a little nitpick.
Looking my post over the Riolu is trash especially since Roar+Prankster no longer works, thanks for that reminder. The point of the Zang over Zard is Taunt, I should of been more clear. Regardless of that I wanted to show off a Perish Song Team w/ the Xerneas I put in the post. http://pokepast.es/c086c45893747a02
Going through the mons top to bottoum.
Xernas is both a phaser and Ingrain makes sure it doesn’t get phased out itself.
Venasaur accomplishes the same thing but also sets up sun for Zard.
Charizard dies to Belly Drum, Black Sludge, and Solar Power, which is activated by Venasaur using Sunny Day.
Mega-Absol baton passes Perish Song to any other mon and has Magic Bounce and Taunt, it’s a key mon to this team.
Mew just a decently fast mon that can Baton Pass, Knock, and phase. It’s kinda filler but it does it’s job. Sub can be replaced by anything really, Taunt is a good option though.
Kadabra makes it so you will usually win (lose) if they are their last mon, because of swapping Magic Guard. It’s also a decently fast mon w/ Taunt and just serves as another mon which dies to Perish Song.
This team seems good in theory but I’d appreciate being told how it could improve.
Surprised Adrian Marin hasn't found this, despite all of these in his signature. It gets cool stuff like Baton Pass, Taunt, Thunder Wave, but more importantly, is the only one that gets Skill Swap + Soundproof for all of your Perish Song-beating needs. Also has pretty shitty physical defenses for those Struggle or Knock Off mons.
Looking my post over the Riolu is trash especially since Roar+Prankster no longer works, thanks for that reminder. The point of the Zang over Zard is Taunt, I should of been more clear. Regardless of that I wanted to show off a Perish Song Team w/ the Xerneas I put in the post. http://pokepast.es/c086c45893747a02
Going through the mons top to bottoum.
Xernas is both a phaser and Ingrain makes sure it doesn’t get phased out itself.
Venasaur accomplishes the same thing but also sets up sun for Zard.
Charizard dies to Belly Drum, Black Sludge, and Solar Power, which is activated by Venasaur using Sunny Day.
Mega-Absol baton passes Perish Song to any other mon and has Magic Bounce and Taunt, it’s a key mon to this team.
Mew just a decently fast mon that can Baton Pass, Knock, and phase. It’s kinda filler but it does it’s job. Sub can be replaced by anything really, Taunt is a good option though.
Kadabra makes it so you will usually win (lose) if they are their last mon, because of swapping Magic Guard. It’s also a decently fast mon w/ Taunt and just serves as another mon which dies to Perish Song.
This team seems good in theory but I’d appreciate being told how it could improve.
One word: Smeargle. Smeargle is straight up the best Pokemon in the meta, and is superior to Mew in all ways but speed. Plus, it also gets Mind Blown, which means it can kill itself in 2 turns, tied with Alolan Marowak for the fastest suicide in the meta.
Surprised Adrian Marin hasn't found this, despite all of these in his signature. It gets cool stuff like Baton Pass, Taunt, Thunder Wave, but more importantly, is the only one that gets Skill Swap + Soundproof for all of your Perish Song-beating needs. Also has pretty shitty physical defenses for those Struggle or Knock Off mons.
What exactly does that Mr. Mime do? I liek tha mimez 2, but I seriously don't see what it provides to the meta. Yeah, it has some nice moves, but it just doesn't have the speed to beat the most common Perish Passer, Mega Absol. It's not horrible, I just don't think the Soundproof+Skill Swap set would put in a ton of work in the meta. As for Swoobat, I'm not a fan of fast Trick leads without Pecha Berry. Seriously, Trick+Pecha Berry is the most overpowered Trick to be honest.
A few people have mentioned Swoobat, and it could work, but that set has no means of damaging itself, even if it Tricks itself a damaging item, due to Klutz. It is therefore pretty much required to carry Skill Swap to operate independently. Klutz Skill Swap could be quite useful though, as it would be able to force out things like Accelgor, even with a sub up, and some Magic Bounce users.
Mr. Mime probably needs like Tailwind or Sticky Web support to work, and it should carry Magic Coat or Absol can Thunder Wave it to stop Toxic Orb from activating. It seems like there are better options to check Absol, like Dugtrio or Dragon Tail Slowking.
Xerneas seems really nice as a Perish receiver. Since Ingrain has poor synergy with Toxic Orb (which isn't needed anyway), it could run Mental Herb to ensure that at least either Ingrain or Roar activates, giving it the upper hand against opposing phazers with Taunt like Murkrow.
Zangoose might want to run either Black Sludge or Snore in the last moveslot; otherwise it risks being Taunted into a Toxic Boosted Struggle.
I got an idea for an interesting strat and found that m-absol has another niche outside of perish pass: accuracy drop pass
The idea is to baton pass accuracy drops to pokemons with moves like High jump kick or jump kick for them to miss twice their moves and die.
between all possible users m-absol was the only one that could evade taunt and phazing after he trapped the foe.
Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Flash
- Psych Up
- Baton Pass
- Mean Look
some counters exists like taunt+mold breaker, no guard, skill swap+magic guard but if you don,t encounter them you'll be forever happy to miss your high jump kicks
I got an idea for an interesting strat and found that m-absol has another niche outside of perish pass: accuracy drop pass
The idea is to baton pass accuracy drops to pokemons with moves like High jump kick or jump kick for them to miss twice their moves and die.
between all possible users m-absol was the only one that could evade taunt and phazing after he trapped the foe.
Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Flash
- Psych Up
- Baton Pass
- Mean Look
some counters exists like taunt+mold breaker, no guard, skill swap+magic guard but if you don,t encounter them you'll be forever happy to miss your high jump kicks
Cool idea, but problem with that set is absol has no way of dying. Also I have played around some absol teams lately and have seen that most teams have a pokemon that can only die to perish song. You can take advantage of this and try to kill absol with a strong move. For example say you have a dugtrio if you run earthquake on it then you can effectively trap the absol and prevent them from killing their teammates. One last thing, remove spheal from the rankings as it does not learn roar and that is the whole point of using walrein/sealeo.
I got an idea for an interesting strat and found that m-absol has another niche outside of perish pass: accuracy drop pass
The idea is to baton pass accuracy drops to pokemons with moves like High jump kick or jump kick for them to miss twice their moves and die.
between all possible users m-absol was the only one that could evade taunt and phazing after he trapped the foe.
Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Flash
- Psych Up
- Baton Pass
- Mean Look
some counters exists like taunt+mold breaker, no guard, skill swap+magic guard but if you don,t encounter them you'll be forever happy to miss your high jump kicks
Creative, but much like Jrsmash9 said, it has no way of dying. I would rather use the standard Mega Absol set...Which has some issues itself, but at least can kill itself consistently. I don't think I can clearly state all the reasons as eloquently as he did, so I'm just going to quote him on this.
Cool idea, but problem with that set is absol has no way of dying. Also I have played around some absol teams lately and have seen that most teams have a pokemon that can only die to perish song. You can take advantage of this and try to kill absol with a strong move. For example say you have a dugtrio if you run earthquake on it then you can effectively trap the absol and prevent them from killing their teammates. One last thing, remove spheal from the rankings as it does not learn roar and that is the whole point of using walrein/sealeo.
I've been rocking with Substitute+Baton Pass a lot recently, and I'm getting the feeling that Espeon might need to be raised to A+. As one of 3 Pokemon that can use it while being essentially immune to Taunt (the other 2 being Illumise and Mega Absol, which have obvious flaws), it obviously has a useful niche. Pair that with it being the fastest Taunt immune Substitute+Baton Pass Pokemon that can hold an item and you realize that this thing is around as good (if not better than) as Accelgor at this role. Honestly, I want Espeon in A+ because although it isn't 100% safe, it makes unsafe Pokemon safe just by being the one passing the Substitute.
And I think I should post this team I've been using for a while, along with a shitload of replays. Enjoy stealing the shit out of this team!
God (Smeargle) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Purify
- Knock Off
- Taunt
Decent At Last (Mightyena) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Snatch
- Roar
Underrated (Espeon) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Snore
- Heal Bell
Consistent (Accelgor) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Sandstorm
- Encore
Tellescope (Gothitelle) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Heal Pulse
- Substitute
- Magic Coat
- Taunt
Amorphous Blob (Ditto) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Imposter
Quiet Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Transform
The idea is pretty simple: Pass a Sub to Mightyena, use the appropriate move, then use your wit to win! Seriously, I can't say the best way to win, but here is a general format for when you want everything to die: Mightyena should be first, then either Gothitelle or Ditto, then Espeon, then whatever you like. Of course, this order is easily subject to change as the match wears on, so you'll want to keep that in mind. Have fun with this team you obviously stole!
Creative, but much like Jrsmash9 said, it has no way of dying. I would rather use the standard Mega Absol set...Which has some issues itself, but at least can kill itself consistently. I don't think I can clearly state all the reasons as eloquently as he did, so I'm just going to quote him on this.
I've been rocking with Substitute+Baton Pass a lot recently, and I'm getting the feeling that Espeon might need to be raised to A+. As one of 3 Pokemon that can use it while being essentially immune to Taunt (the other 2 being Illumise and Mega Absol, which have obvious flaws), it obviously has a useful niche. Pair that with it being the fastest Taunt immune Substitute+Baton Pass Pokemon that can hold an item and you realize that this thing is around as good (if not better than) as Accelgor at this role. Honestly, I want Espeon in A+ because although it isn't 100% safe, it makes unsafe Pokemon safe just by being the one passing the Substitute.
And I think I should post this team I've been using for a while, along with a shitload of replays. Enjoy stealing the shit out of this team!
God (Smeargle) @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Purify
- Knock Off
- Taunt
Decent At Last (Mightyena) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Snatch
- Roar
Underrated (Espeon) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Snore
- Heal Bell
Consistent (Accelgor) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Sandstorm
- Encore
Tellescope (Gothitelle) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Shadow Tag
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Heal Pulse
- Substitute
- Magic Coat
- Taunt
Amorphous Blob (Ditto) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Imposter
Quiet Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD / 0 Spe
- Transform
The idea is pretty simple: Pass a Sub to Mightyena, use the appropriate move, then use your wit to win! Seriously, I can't say the best way to win, but here is a general format for when you want everything to die: Mightyena should be first, then either Gothitelle or Ditto, then Espeon, then whatever you like. Of course, this order is easily subject to change as the match wears on, so you'll want to keep that in mind. Have fun with this team you obviously stole!
I just have to say that this is a very effective team! Mightyena is incredibly good due to its potency as a Prankster check. I also have to agree that Espeon may be A+, given the fact that it boasts a stellar base 110 Speed stat, Sub-Pass, and Magic Bounce. Additionally, Espeon has a lot of value as a Mega Absol check. Its only issue is its inability to exert any kind of pressure (opposers have no trouble using Substitute and other moves as it attempts to pass a Substitute.) That's my point of view, however. What do you guys think?
EDIT: Thank you Jrsmash9 for pointing that out! Spheal has been removed.
