Resource USUM PU Viability Rankings

[Anty]

The VR is fine but there are a couple things I want to touch on and idt they would really be much different in a mag-less meta

A+ -> A
Though Jynx has been A+ for a long time I no longer think it deserved its rank for the past month or so but has sort of been left in A+. Firstly, the addition of Spiritomb really hindered it as its a much more reliable stop than Skuntank as shadow sneak cant be stopped by CB and it can get past sub variants easily. The other earlier additions of Aurorus and Snowslash also annoyed Jynx as it competes with Aurorus as an ice type breaker and scarf sets can pivot in on ice beam and OHKO with edge, whereas snowslash resists Jynx's dual STAB. Z-LK set is also not as threatening as it was due to scarf togedemaru/swanna being popular, while priority users like Gurdurr and Lycanroc continue to be popular. Usage is by no means an indication of viability, but there is a big reason why Jynx usage is way down.

A- -> B+
Another Pokemon which has fallen from its peak but sorta just got forgotten about. Wallbreakers with immediate power have been extremely popular lately yet Drampa usage is at a low as it cant compete with the rest of the crowd effectively. Firstly Aurorus arriving has certainly given it competition, as before Drampa was extremely effective at being a mon you don't have to especcially predict with, just click buttons and kill stuff - which is what Aurorus does, but only better. Clefairy's usage is very high and when paired with a solid Normal-check Drampa isnt in the easiest position to just click and kill whereas Aurorus's Blizzard is much more effective at that. Magmortar's rise has made Carbink much more popular, and if you drop focus blast for surf then Audino/Type: Null can more effectively pivot in on Drampa, while AV Hitmonchan usage is still high and with Spiritomb here locking into hyper voice can be a risk as if dramap gets Pursuited it will often no longer serve much use due to its subpar speed.

B+ -> A-
The loss of Palossand has helped Lycanroc a lot, especcially considering it was pretty underrated beforehand. Though Lycanroc still has two solid counters in Gurdurr and Gastrodon, what makes it a really nice cleaner/breaker is its ability to pair with many different mons to effectively lure checks, such as Stoutland which can comfortably put Gurdurr into boosted Stormshards range or Pyroar which can chip at chan and potentially lure Gastrodon (just have good fighting resists). Additionally SS does 53-63% to Gurdurr and 60-70% to Gastrodon, the former isnt especcially difficult to weaken down (spikes support is amazing with lycan) though you just have to be wary of getting in mach range, and though the latter is often healthier, it is pretty passive. Mach Punch does provide a significant threat from chan/gurdurr, meaning Lycanroc has to be careful about setting up to remain high health (otherwise it can often find easy opportunities on mons like sensu, mesprit, choice locked stout etc), however it is great at forcing mons like Magmortar out, and even the threat of a z-move on certain checks can cause them to switch out to get an SD up. I also cant stress how amazing spikes are since you can even put scarf ape/toge in accel range (esp if you run LO which is a good option) since they both switch in during games a lot. Lastly Lycanroc provides vital midgame support by revenge killing top threats like Archeops, Magmortar, Pyroar, Swanna, Sensu, and more. Heres a game where I set up on a sack, and sweeping after I weakened Gurdurr (pressumably my opp assumed gurdurr could RK it)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pususpecttest-733088197
Ive said this before, but its tour MU is notably better than on the ladder as less people run hitmonchan and in general its not a well prepp'd for mon (take my exhb game vs Kushalos for example, had I played a bit better and chipped regi more or got the protect prediction right I woulda swept mid game)

 

[yogi]

C+ > B- (potentially higher)

Might seem like a strange nomination, but I think the Substitute + Toxic set has some serious meta potential at the moment. Being a Water-type that literally sets up on Ferroseed and straight forces it out is really cool as even though others like Kingler and Floatzel can, they're scared of moves like Thunder Wave and don't enjoy Leech Seed at all. I find the ability to also abuse traditional Water resists like Lanturn and Gastrodon to also be a big selling point, as Poliwrath is capable of setting up Sub or Toxicing them when they come in, then stalling them out to a point where they're either KOed or severely weakened. Also having a decent match up against a load of powerful wallbreakers like Aurorus, Kingler, and Pyroar (to an extent) makes it a rather potent Pokemon and actually gives it a defined niche on a lot of balance teams as a way of checking said Pokemon. Overall an actual solid Pokemon in the current meta and trends have definitely favoured it!

I also agree with all of Anty's points, and I remember him talking about Lycanroc with me and the lads a few days ago. Palossand leaving was pretty huge for it as that's one less hard counter for it to attempt to deal with; leaving only Hitmonchan, Gurdurr, Gastrodon, and less common Pokemon like Mudsdale. As Anty also mentioned, Hitmonchan sees less tour play and Gastrodon definitely is not a common sight in both the tour scene and on the ladder.

 

[Aaronboyer]

Cradily C+ --> C
Tangela C --> C+

I'm surprised this hasn't happened sooner, but Cradily and Tangela really need to swap places on the Viability Rankings. Cradily has really had no true niche for itself this generation, and I think this is because of strange dual-typing and general inability to fit on bulkier playstyles. Honestly, the only time I've seen Cradily used was Anty vs. Kushalos during Exhibition which, although it was during the Passimian metagame, failed to do much of anything except sit there and die. In contrast, Tangela has really proven itself lately, despite the soaring usage of Magmortar and Aurorus. Regenerator and an absurdly high physical defense makes it a great physical tank that can annoy the opponent with its array of support options such as Leech Seed and Knock Off, and unlike Cradily, works well in tandem with other specially defensive Pokemon such as Audino or Carbink to form a solid defensive backbone for archetypes such as Stall. It's even done well during the PU Budget Tournament and had almost single-handedly pulled back Game 2 of my series against ProtoLugia by being able to repeatedly switch into Kingler and chip Weezing and Oricorio-Sensu. For these reasons, I believe Cradily and Tangela should swap places.

 

[TJ]

A --> A+

I think that Aurorus is easily one of the most offensive threatening Pokemon in the tier atm. Aurorus puts a huge strain on teambuilding, especially with Miltank rising, as its Choice Specs set 2HKOs the majority of the tier with ease. It can even 2HKO blanket checks like Hitmonchan with its absurd Blizzard + Hail combo. Aurorus is blessed with great coverage moves in Freeze-Dry and Earth Power, meaning it can bypass Ice-resistant Pokemon such as Lanturn and Aggron. Additionally, the choice scarf set is seeing more usage as it's great for luring mons like Archeops and Oricorio-G on offense. With its good bulk, Aurorus can also pivot in and threaten out bulky Pokemon like Weezing and Spiritomb. Although it's lacking in speed and has a bad defensive typing, I think Aurorus is a very potent threat that is now better with Mag banned; thus deserving of A+.

I also agree with every nom above except for Shiinotic.. even with Mag gone this thing just isnt good, its like D at best imo.

 

[Sam I Yam]

Kingler B+ > A.

A few months ago. I made a post (here) nominating Kingler from D- > B-. Although Kingler didn't get recently get a fancy new move like back in November, the metagame has been fairly kind to Kingler.
It has ways to deal with its most common checks. Can sub on ferroseed, potentially SD & Superpower Gastrodon, Ice beam grass types (although less viable now that Altaria is gone)

I think Kingler now deserves to move up to A rank. Agility is the most common set I've seen and it absolutely runs through defensive teams. Common "checks" like Lanturn get 2hko'd by Liquidation + Superpower. Fully defensive Mesprit is 2hkod, Offensive mesprit can get OKHO'd after stealth rock. Clefairy / Ferroseed cores get torn apart as they have to try to pivot around and force you to drop attack with superpower and hope that you don't have sub. The viability of pursuit users like Skunk and Spiritomb make Kingler that much better by allowing you to "force" Agility Kingler's checks to be put in range of it's attacks.

I haven't laddered up much higher than 1500ish recently and am not in the current SSNL so the only "high level" recent replays I have are from the official roomtours. Sorry!

Replays

Official Roomtour finals where Kingler forces opponent to sack silvally fairy allowing for gurdurr to sweep afterwards.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-736656721
Official Room tour (semifinals I think) where a well played kingler put him into a really tight spot. Stay tuned til the end for salt
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-736648212

Sableye A- > B+ or B

Surprised this mon has stayed this high for so long. Seeing this in the same rank as things like Gastro, Lilligant, lanturn, etc is kind of silly. Even on high ladder, it sees less usage than kekleon and usually does nothing in games. Your ghost slot is almost always better filled with spiritomb, and your dark slot is almost always better filled with either tomb or skunk.

---

Other noms:

A > A+ Agree

A+ > A Agree. Possibly even -A

 

[BigBootyAnimal]

Aurorus A > A+ Agree
I think that aurorus is seeing a lot of play at the moment and will only see more now that magmortar is gone. While it's speed is slightly lacking, it is such a versatile pokemon with multiple viable sets, all of which pose problems to other teams. The choice scarf set is also becoming more potent and i know from personal experience without a good counter, it can tear through whole teams. Either way, there isnt much that wants to switch into a blizzard. Finally considering aurorus is talked about potentially for the next suspect test, i think it is well and truly deserved of a upgrade.

Other Noms:

Kingler B+ > A Agree

 

[Katy]

Aurorus to A+

in all honestly it should rise, hail + 100% accurate blizzards are really good, hitting mons really good aswell with freeze-dry and other coverage options like earth power or thunderbolt. Also utility moves like rocks to setup hazards and encore are viable options to pressure your opp to defog.
scarf to outspeed other mons in his speed range, specs to hit mons harder or just focus sash.
also blizzard and freeze-dry is really good in the current metagame right now, hitting mons like gastrodon, swanna, oricosio sensu hard.
It also has reasonable bulk to withstands moves with a good HP stat and a decent spdef.
I cannot stress enough how good this mon is currently in the metagame. Imho even suspect worthy.

 

[MZ]

Oh man this has been a long time coming. With all the suspects, the potential for Archeops and/or Aurorus to go next, just the general shifting of the tier, there hasn't been an update in quite a while and many of these changes are long, long overdue (Kingler in B+ oml).

Aurorus A to A+
Jynx A+ to A
Kingler B+ to A
Lycanroc B+ to A-
Sableye A- to B+
Drampa A- to B+
Mudsdale B- to B
Poliwrath C+ to B-
Shiftry B to B-
Throh B to B-
Tangela C to C+
Bellossom C to C+
Silvally-Dragon C to C+
Jumpluff C- to C
Sliggoo unranked to D (yes, even after Magmortar's ban)
Prinplup D to unranked
Lycanroc-Midnight D to Unranked

Almost all of these were discussed at length or had one well written post and aren't too controversial. Mudsdale, Shiftry, Tangela, Bellossom, Silvally-Dragon, and Jumpluff were all added to the slate by the council (as well as other noms that didn't go through) for one reason or another, but most are fairly straightforward. Mudsdale, Tangela, and Bellossom all directly benefit from various Pokemon leaving the tier like Altaria, Palossand, and Magmortar, and arguably deserved to rise beforehand. Silvally-Dragon has gotten a large bump in tournament and ladder usage due to how much better Draco Meteor is at apply pressure than, say, Silvally-Fairy's Multi-Attack, and Shiftry still is just really hard to fit on teams and loses to so many common Pokemon. I also figured out how to make these easily viewable! Hit this link and then hit view previous responses to see everything we voted on, who voted what, and all that jazz.
As for discussion points, the only thing we were 50/50 on is Shiinotic. Debating how much of a niche is needed to rank a Pokemon is very tricky though, and there's plenty of other potential changes to discuss.

 

[Arcobaleno]

Shiinotic : Unranked -› C-/C

I really don't understand why this mon is still unranked, even its weakness and its terribad speed, it's probably the best gurdurr check in the tier, with access to strengh sap to weaken switch ins or stay even if your opponent has super effective moves, spore (only a few mons are able to absorb spore and pressure shiinotic), support moves... It's also a decent check to Hitmonchan, Phys Floatzel, Kingler, Shiftry or Absol (without z-steel). Finally, its ability Effect Spore is very useful, to sleep or para u-turn core, or cripple spam (mesprit, chan, even gurdurr without fearing about guts, etc...). I think it has a niche in current PU metagame.
Final winner ssnl Pepeduce vs Taskr :
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-738135356
Vs Orange Memes :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-737418074

Wormagoat-trash Unranked -› C-/C

Even if wormadam is passive and lacks reliable recovery, it finds its niche with access to rocs and fantastic typing, allowing to check huge threats such as Aurorus (thanks to overcoat), Stoutland (mixed def Worma), Mesprit, Jynx or Kangha. Moreover, it can easily pressure other rockers, more particularly Clefairy, or Mesprit with toxic+protect, protect also is a good way to scout choice locked mons (specs pyroar, eggy-a, drampa...). Of course, i'm not saying Wormatrash is a very good pokemon, but the fact that it can check a lot of very threatening mons is a good reason to give it a rank.

Semi ssnl Pepeduce vs Tjay :
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-732714566
Final winner ssnl Pepeduce vs Taskr (scroll up)

Thanks to Pepe for replays because i forgot to save.
(Sorry for my frail english)

 

[UberSkitty]

Welp, I've been procrastinating this post for a while. Here's just a few noms I've had in mind (in no particular order more or less).

Lilligant A- -> A
Not only has one of this thing's best defensive checks in Magmortar been banned, but another in Drampa has fallen down largely in usage. The obvious benefit is not having to worry about these checks, or at least not as much in Drampa's case, but it also means it doesn't have to carry Z-Hyper Beam anymore. Although Z-Hyper Beam is still decent, its other potential items in Life Orb and Grassium-Z can now be run much more effectively. While Life Orb simply lets it hit harder while sweeping, Grassium-Z gives it a nuke for stuff or +1 Speed to better deal with Scarfers like Primeape. The point is it can now better deal with other stuff like Ferroseed without having to worry about choosing other moves to hit those damn Magmortar or Altaria. Anyway, its simply a great setup sweeper, especially with Sleep Powder, and defiantly deserving of A.

Bellossom C+ -> B-/B
Simply an underrated mon, and even though it was just raised, I'd say it still deserves higher. While it may be less of a immediate threat than Lilligant, it really shines after it can get a Quiver Dance or two up. It can sweep more safely that Lilligant since it doesn't have to worry about being worn down by things like status and priority thanks to its better natural bulk alongside Safeguard and Strength Sap. Strength Sap also pairs so well with Quiver Dance, making it harder to break through with raw power if the foe can take a hit. The whole Magmortar and Drampa thing also applies here. I'd say it differs enough from Lilligant to go to at least B-, if not B.


Alolan Dugtrio B -> B+
Another underrated mon. That combination of Ground/Steel STAB, reaching that nice base 110 Speed tier, not even the worst Attack, and of course, SubToxic. If it can come in safely, it can often force the opponent out and get up a free Substitute. That Substitute makes it all the harder to revenge kill, and often lets Alolan Duggy get off a free Toxic or a flat out KO. SubToxic is also great for dealing with things that would otherwise check it, like Weezing and Pyukumuku. And speaking of Pyukumuku, Alolan Duggy is also pretty good against stall. If the opponent doesn't have Ferroseed, this thing is gonna put in work.

Carbink B- -> C+
Carbink, I love you, but remember that whole Magmortar and Drampa thing I've mentioned a couple times? Well it applies here too, but this time it ain't a good thing. Those two mons gave Carbink's secondary typing in Fairy a good niche over Regirock, but now I'd say I can pretty safely run Regirock again. It's still an okay special wall and the Fairy typing is nice to have, but even then its not doing too well with things like Flash Cannon Aurorus running around. Its not you Carbink, its everything else. Specifically Regirock.

Kecleon B- -> B
It's just a cool blanket check for a good amount of special attackers. Its moveset is also great, with priority in Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak, recovery in Drain Punch, utility in Knock Off, and even Power-Up Punch to break down bulkier mons. These moves altogether provide some good coverage, too, which goes great with Protean, giving all its moves STAB on the offensive side and can create mind games on the defensive side. But yeah, just an overall cool AV user.

Kangaskhan A- -> A
My man GeneralAnnoyance made this nom about two months ago, and goes into more detail on why it's so good, but I'll go over the standard stuff. Starting with its stats, it has a solid Attack stat, reaches a nice Speed tier with base 90, and even good bulk. Then we've got its Normal typing, which has more than proven itself in PU, especially when combined with Scrappy. Finally there's its movepool, which gives even that Kecleon guy a run for his money. There's the powerful STAB Double-Edge, priority in Sucker Punch and STAB Fake Out, Power-Up Punch for those fun boosts, and its coverage with moves including, but not limited to, Earthquake, Hammer Arm, Fire Punch, and Iron Tail. This allows it to have a good amount of diversity in its sets, making it all the less predictable, especially being able to run multiple items such as Silk Scarf, Normalium-Z, or just a Z-crystal that goes with its coverage for those lures. It can wallbreak, revenge kill, even clean, the whole shebang. Also KangaSpikes has risen in popularity, and for good reason, since it's OP. Do people still use that term? Anyway, just another mon deserving of A.

As for the other noms that have been made since the last VR update all two of them...

Wormadam-Trash, if the name doesn't say enough, is honestly just a worse Ferroseed or Bronzor. It can hold Lefties instead of Eviolite, but eh. Just eh. I'd say leave it unranked.

Now this mon I wouldn't be against ranking D, maybe C-. While Shiinotic faces competition against things like Tangela, it can deal with things like Gurdurr with its secondary Fairy typing, Strength Sap, and Spore, just some nice niches.

Sorry if these sounded too much like less detailed analysis, or would it be analyses? Analysi? IDK what the plural is. Anyway, s/o to TJ for grammar checking and stuff which means you can blame him for anything inaccurate.

Also Duosion is still D rank don't listen to the haters.

 

[TTK]

Haven't made a nom in a while since my Crustle nom way back when (I was a noob at PU then) but there's been a pokemon that I've been thinking about dropping for quite a while and I didn't know if I should post or not but nah, I'm gonna have to.

Shiftry: B- to C+
I know this thing dropped from B from the 24/4 changes but this mon doesn't deserve B- in my opinion. The meta is not kind to Shiftry and hasn't been for a long time. It cannot do its job properly at all as a defogger. Losing to every common scarfer in the tier doesn't help at all and with such a terrible defensive typing and defensive stats, it doesn't live long and goes down relatively quickly and it is quite hard to fit onto teams. Furthermore, even as an offensive mon, it gets outclassed by Absol and Raticate-Alola, which are significantly stronger than it albeit being slower but Shiftry's Speed tier isn't that amazing. I wasn't thinking about this in particular until I saw Silvally-Ghost in C+ and Shiftry was B-. Honestly, how is Shiftry higher ranked than Ghostvally? It makes no sense. Now this comes on to my next nomination.

Silvally-Ghost: C+ to B-
I find that in most situations, Ghostvally is always the better defogger than Shiftry. Having superior speed, better typing and being a spinblocker; it has many more merits than Shiftry and the only reason this mon doesn't get much usage is because it gets Pursuit-trapped by Spiritomb and Skuntank. This might be Ghostvally's crippling flaw but it is easy to fit onto teams and it gives so much momentum with Parting Shot support. Furthermore, as an offensive mon, being a Mesprit check is quite nice, being able to 2HKO all Mesprit sets with the special set. Even though it is slightly weaker than Shiftry due to it being able to carry Life Orb, Ghostvally is still able to check offensive mons like Scarf Ape when it is locked into Close Combat and gain momentum using Parting Shot and it is able to speedtie with an unboosted Jynx. I could've nominated Ghostvally to B but I'm not sure if people think Fairyvally is better atm or not but this mon should honestly swap places with Shiftry.

Sorry if these noms felt a bit bare-boned (I feel like I could've done better) but there isn't much else I can say. Shiftry is hard to use and isn't as good as it used to be and I think Ghostvally is better being a defogger than it as of now and it should be reflected on the Viability Rankings. No one really uses Shiftry much anyways.

 

[LordST]

Zard and Hjad's short podcast inspired me to break my massive lack of posting streak so s/o to them. First I'll address some of the recent noms:

Shiinotic: Unranked -> wherever Disagree

When I first saw this nom, I went to go build with it cause it does have a fair amount of appeal to it. Moonblast + Spore is quite annoying to switch into without a Ferroseed especially now that Magmortar is gone. Even vs Ferroseed Magic Coat is a nice tech. The rise of Kingler certainly makes this mon look decent on face value, but after an extensive amount of testing I really just can't find a justification for using it over Tangela. Tangela checks everything that Shiinotic does better bar Gurdurr but even then it has a solid matchup. Hitmonchan and Primeape still do zero damage to Tangela, Kingler is still checked comfortably, and the Dark type matchup is still questionable just like with Shiinotic (neither are solid answers to Ret which is easily the best of the 3 SD dark types). Sure Effect Spore is nice, but Regenerator will be useful much more frequently. Unlike Shiinotic, Tangela doesn't have to recover to stay healthy to continually check what it needs to meaning its free to put more pressure on switch ins. TLDR: Tangela does everything that Shiinotic does but better.

Wormadam Trash: Unranked -> wherever (C/C- might be a stretch) Agree

In contrast to my opinion on Shiinotic, I do think Worm-Trash has enough of a niche to deserve a spot on the VR as long as Aurorus is in the tier. Other than Munchlax, It is quite literally the only GSI in the tier to broken dino. Other stupidly niche stuff like spdef Regice and Grumpig have too much stuff in the meta to hard abuse them, but after testing I feel Wormadam has enough good matchups and the tools to circumvent the things that can abuse it. ToxicTect can be used to wear down switch ins and scout for choice locked mons in a similar manner to how Ferro LeechTects. Sure it does let Ferroseed come in and Spike for free, but there are so many other mons that do that already that i don't think that is enough of a knock to keep it off the VR. While I'm discussing Ferroseed I'll address the "It's basically just a worse Ferroseed" argument. Sure these two mons do share part of a role, but Ferroseed really cant check Ice types the same way. While the matchup vs Stout and Kanga is much shakier than Seed, it really is the only thing in the tier that can switch into Physical Skunk, Mesprit, Aurorus, and Jynx reliably in one slot and I find that should be enough to be listed somewhere among the other absurdly niche stuff in C- and D.

Lilligant and Bellossom moving up Agree

I'll keep this one brief since Skitty covered the reasoning well already. This things checks and counters have gradually become less common, moved to NU, or banned in Magmortar's case, meaning it really doesn't have a whole lot of use or need for Z Hyper beam anymore. This frees it up to run the incredibly threatening Grassium Z + Hp Fire set that has the tools to outplay basically all its checks if used well. Bellossom is the same deal. It has less checks so it can get away with getting more creative with its sets. Aromatherapy basically solos any stall, HP rock with lets it pressure Pyroar and Corios, or you can just stick with Sleep Powder. Tbh I could even get behind Lilligant to A+ if it wasn't just a bit more difficult to fit on teams compared to the rest of A+.

Alolan-Duggy B -> B+ Agree

This thing has been under ranked for awhile imo and it only gets more viable with the Archeops ban. On top of having less competition for that super fast offense breaker slot that Archeops was, it also doesn't have to worry about losing a speed tie to it. I've also seen Scarf make a few waves though I'm less sure about that set being actually good or just some sick meme.

Silvally-Ghost C+ -> B- Disagree

I really don't see the need for this nom. The meta hasn't really shifted much regarding its checks or the things its supposed to check. It's still an incredibly unreliable spinblocker and fighting check, and it still hates how present Tomb and Skunk are in this meta. It definitely has a niche but It's more comparable to the likes of Smeargle and Volbeat in the size of that niche than stuff like Ursaring and Carbink that occupy B-.

Now for a few noms of my own:

Oricorio-Sensu A+ -> A

I made this nom awhile ago and the council didn't seem to agree but I wanted to bring it up again because I really feel it stands out as something that isn't as effective as the rest if the rank. Infiltrator Spiritomb, Regirock/Carbink, and Eelektross are ever present pretty hard counters that keep the breaker set from very rarely ever accomplishing much vs well made teams. The things it used to be used for checking aren't as common as they were towards the beginning of this gen (Lilligant (tho it deserves more) and Zangoose). Even with the offensive flying type slot becoming a bit more open thanks to Archeops's ban, I believe A is much more fitting for Sensu in the current meta than A+.

Floatzel A- -> B+

With the departure of Archeops, Float lost one of its main niches as something that can always revenge broken bird. In addition FerroClef is getting more and more common which is a core that Floatzel really struggles to break. It also faces stiff competition from Kingler, which can break what it needs to and have a good matchup vs offense in just three slots with Liquidation, Superpower, and Agility. Meanwhile to accomplish the same thing with Floatzel it needs about 6 moveslots. It can still be a nice anti-offense mon, but between its poor bulk and lack of immediate power it struggles to do much against really any other playstyle. The mon has honestly been a bit unexplored in terms of movesets but atm i really don't see it worthy of A-

Alolan Persian B -> B-

Same concept as Floatzel. With Archeops gone, there's less need for absurdly fast things that can revenge it. On top of that, it's kinda hard to build with considering it doesn't really do a great job checking all the things its theoretically supposed to check as it can get chipped quick and is relatively passive. It also faces competition with Spiritomb and Skuntank as the Dark type slot on teams making for either some awkward "dark spam" or the lack of a real pursuit trapper which is something hard to justify in this meta. Just find myself never really wanting this thing on my team and with Archeops gone its even less so.

Tangela C+ -> B-

Kingler is one of the most common breakers right now and Tangela is honestly one of the best and most splashable of checks. I sorta covered this already in my Shiinotic paragraph but thanks to Regenerator it doesn't have to worry about recovering every time it comes in on the mons its checks and can actually pressure things switching in unlike the rest of the Kingler checks. It also has a decent movepool and the slots to abuse them so switching in to it can be a hassle for a lot of teams. Overall this is a really underused mon and deserves more especially with Magmortar gone.

Zebstrika C- -> D/unranked

Another fast mon with less reason to use with Arch gone but this time that was it's whole niche. There are very few mons in the speed tier that Zebstrika hits over Raichu-A or Manectric so there really isn't much reason to use it atm. If something like Floatzel becomes really popular for whatever reason it might deserve a slot back but right now it really doesn't need to be on the VR.

 

[jklioe]

A+ ---> S

This is probably going to be a pretty interesting case for a lot of people since we haven't really had anything that has gotten ranked, or even nominated for S-rank in this thread purely for the Pokemon's defensive capabilities, and a large part of Mesprit and Skuntank's ranking is due to a combination of versatility and just overall effectiveness. Archeops, on the other hand, was more of a case of its threat level consistently outshining everything else. I think Ferroseed has now reached a level of influence, dominance, and potency that absolutely rivals the rest of the current Pokemon in S-rank.

For starters, Ferroseed cements itself as a top choice for practically any team due to how it single-handily defines balance, defensive utility, and hazard stacking playstyles in the metagame. Due to its presence, a majority of the framework for teams nowadays tend to involve a Defog user, or, if you're running Ferroseed yourself, you'll often opt to Hitmonchan or Kabutops for Rapid Spin to maintain your own hazards in the field. Spikes have become that much of a defining presence, all thanks to Ferroseed to the point where you pretty much have to build in this fashion to avoid being at a disadvantage all game once Ferroseed is able to get some initiative.

On top of centralizing how the hazard game plays out in matches, Ferroseed's influence plays a massive role in teambuilding in a lot of other ways due to its effectiveness, as it dictates coverage moves for a multitude of Pokemon (HP Fire and Fire Punch on things that would otherwise run other stuff, mostly), because of the insane amount of pressure it puts on teams with its utility. You also see solid responses like Lurantis (which is amazing rn, move it up to B+!), Probopass, and even Golem-A gaining in traction just because their ability to function as a complete stop to Ferroseed better than the majority of the tier is such a relevant trait in and of itself. Basically, if you don't have a direct answer for it, a well-played Ferroseed is pretty much going to outpressure and outlast most of the tier with Spikes+Leech Seed+Iron Barbs all game. This is why, despite being passive, Ferroseed generates massive amounts of momentum in the form of chipping away the opponent's team and safely scouting the opponent with Protect, even against things that threaten it like Pyroar.

Ferroseed is quite one-dimensional compared to the other stuff, but it's just so effective at what it does and pairs well with so many Pokemon with the support that it offers that it's rarely a hindrance in the grand scheme of things. It's almost never really a bad idea to consider it on any team. While it can have some variety in moves like Knock Off, Toxic, Thunder Wave, or even Stealth Rock in some cases, it's most consistent set is Spikes / Leech Seed / Protect / Gyro Ball. It makes offensive threats and more passive win cons like Calm Mind Clefairy even bigger threats with Spikes, it blanket checks a lot of threatening and passive threats, and the number of 50-50s it forces with Leech Seed+Protect all contribute to its ability to basically set the pace of the game extremely well.

I think it's important to establish that Ferroseed doesn't stack up to Mesprit or Skuntank by any means in terms of versatility. I think it does make up for that setback by being just as splashable, dominant, and the amount of influence it has in the metagame. It not only centralizes the meta around preparing for hazards, but it checks a lot of the tier and is the centerpiece to a ton of successful cores (cough cough ferroclef) and playstyles that make use of its utility. I think it stands out among the rest of the A+ crowd at this point.

for a tl;dr breakdown, basically this pokemon is omnipresent, centralizing, can fit in and pressure tons of playstyles, and is dumb. and don't even get me started on the infamous ferroseed ditto (s/o hjad for team)

 

[Ktütverde]

Hello!

A+ -> S

I don't understand why people find weird to think of gurdurr as S rank. The main argument against is: "it is predictable, it only runs one set". So I checked and found this very easily: https://www.smogon.com/smog/issue31/forum. The definition of viability ranks for all the tiers. Having only one role doesn't prevent a mon from being S. Gurdurr has established itself as a superstandard in offense and balance too. It is incredibly easy to use: pair it with a pursuit trapper, skuntank notably. It can also be used in the ultra-standard little white girl core: HW mesprit+Pursuit skuntank+Gurdurr. A core that could be a full S-ranks core. The opportunity cost for using gurdurr is almost null, it is splashable (almost every team runs skuntank, and many of those who don't carry spiritomb). The only teams that might not use gurdurr are those who already use hitmonchan for glue/spin reasons or primeape which can sometimes be swapped with togedemaru scarf and therefore allowing gurdurr to join the squad without typing issues.

Gurdurr is an absolute nightmare at teambuilding level to be honest, I would even say the most centralizing pokémon. I will frankly affirm that a team with only one gurdurr check (even a hard check like weezing) is a bad team. It forces the use of weezing, colbur mesprit or psychic spiritomb. First point here then: you are forced to run psychic on spiritomb. Using crotomb is a waste, because it doesnt check gurdurr, so here we have the first level of centralization. Second point: the necessity of having 2 answers to gurdurr at least, or 1 flawless one like taunt sableye with nightshade/metalburst. It also led me and other people to use shiinotic, because tangela can struggle a lot vs gurdurr if well played. My teambuilding is always, always following this outline: Pokémon I chose 1st, make a core around it including one gurdurr check/counter, make the rest of the team starting with the second gurdurr check, or finish the team and get rid of stuff until I manage to fit a gurdurr secondary answer. I don't think I build poorly at all, I've checked how are other teams made and most of them are following this pattern. And most teams with only colbur mesprit or weezing to deal with gurdurr struggled immensely vs this little monster in the games I watched, especially because of how often gurdurr is paired with HW support (which isn't a niche pick at all justifying gurdurr's effectiveness: 90% teams use mesprit so HW too). Dealing with mesprit means nothing rn because it is pure support, and skuntank is everywhere but not a very deadly pokemon, it's just super good at what it does and is annoying at best. That's why the current S ranks may provoke a bias in the gurdurr case, because it deserves imo the S ranking for very different reasons, which are to me absolutely legitimate.

A- -> at least B+, B- if possible
I have read the posts about lycanrock and have honestly not understood the point of using it at all. It is completely unlikely to get a sweep, accelerock is way too weak to pose a threat even at +2. The best thing I think of when using it is to nuke something with +2 SSS , but even that is never going to happen with gurdurr in most teams and ferroseed/chan deterring it from setting up. Also, about setting up: it's way too hard to get the +2, might be possible on a clefairy or mesprit but they will go to regirock/gurdurr/whatever. I would just not use this pokemon unless it really fits the team. I will probably go to B- but let it drop slowly. Sash lycanrock is the best set imo, but really hard to fit and justify, so none of his sets justify its presence in A-.
Now, why should it be B-? Let's compare lycanrock with pokemons above A-, so in A, which is the best way to establish viablities. Lurantis and dugtrio are B, and are literally great as compared with lycanrock. They are easy to justify: dugtrio checks a plethora of pokemons with it's speed and typing and will always pressure the oppo, while lurantis is a balance slayer, with good bulk, recovery, defog etc. Lycanrock has got nothing to justify it over these mons, that's why I think it should be B-. If I need something to mess up with balance and being fast, my go-to pick will be dugtrio-A and not lycan.

A --> at least A-, B+ if possible
Sorry for radical changes, but the ridiculous usage of jynx which is extremely weak to priority due to its abysmal defense stat, weakness to stealth rock, and high opportunity cost as compared with wallbreakers like aurorus shouldn't allow it to remain A. Missing the kiss also can lead to losing jynx stupidly. It's opportunity cost is pretty high as compared with A- rank things like kanga, gastrodon and stoutland. So B+ if possible.

B --> B+ Agree
Dugtrio is the new archeops. This is a partially true statement.
Seriously, Dug is the best pick for a fast attacker rn. It's typing make it a better choice than floatzel, and raichu-A is completely bad. Dugtrio can take advantage of mesprit with its typing, get a sub on skuntank, and cripple balance heavily (sometimes soloing them) with the famous subtoxic set. It doesn't have real counters except tangela and eelektross which get toxiced. It gets a free switch on clefairy and can set a sub on mesprit, also it can weaken ferroseed whitout fearing instant ko

calc

0 Atk Ferroseed Gyro Ball (150 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dugtrio-Alola: 70-83 (33.1 - 39.3%) -- 13% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

A lifeorb/band set is also very good at revengekilling anything slower lacking priority. All in all, dugtrio should move up, and deserve more attention now that archeops is gone.

A+ -> S Disagree
Ferroseed is annoying, but you just need some preparation to easily beat it (like ferrothorn in OU). Even though the spam of flamethrower on silvallys might look like centralization, it's just a way to prevent ferroseed from staying in because silv is the defogger. And the "we are forced to run hpfire on everything to beat it", well I don't know what needs Hpfire actually: Lurantis handles it super easily with superpower or even Hpice which hits dragons too, eelektross will use flamethrower in its set regardless of ferroseeds presence in the meta, aurorus destroys it with blizzard, mesprit hpfire well why not; HP fire lilligant sucks when u could use Zbeam, but you can as well pair with probopass or just use a ferroseed breaker. If that is the reason of ferroseed centralization, I have to disagree: hard stopping lilligant is a cool thing and prevents it from being an easy setup-and-win mon. Clefairy in balance/eelektross in offense are super standard and deal with ferro. One could argue: "and that's all?" But ferroseed isn't that hard to weaken without leftovers, and is just a massive pain with leech seed: force it out, don't let it leech for free and you won't have trouble. Ferroseed struggles with burns from spiritomb, is useless vs weezing, loses to kingler, aurorus, pyroar, exeguttor, gurdurr, chan, clefairy, eelektross, flamethrower silvallies, drampa; in desperate scenarios you let something get weakened and switch on a protect/spikes. Ferroseed isn't splashable, it always is spikestacking with clef/mesprit, a spinner, a ghost and cleaner, and isn't as reliable as you could think unless you focus on a spikestacking core, because ferro doesn't have an awesome staying power and really hates its spikes being defogged away (that's his main job afterall, get spikes up at the cost of its health!). Prepping for it isn't harder than prepping for gastrodon, it's a very good mon but nothing like a S rank mon because it loses to so many things and relies on being able to spam leechseed/ stack spikes which is gonna happen but isn't going to destroy your team.



Damn that was long, thanks for reading!

 

[asa]

A- -> at least B+, B- if possible
I have read the posts about lycanrock and have honestly not understood the point of using it at all. It is completely unlikely to get a sweep, accelerock is way too weak to pose a threat even at +2. The best thing I think of when using it is to nuke something with +2 SSS , but even that is never going to happen with gurdurr in most teams and ferroseed/chan deterring it from setting up. Also, about setting up: it's way too hard to get the +2, might be possible on a clefairy or mesprit but they will go to regirock/gurdurr/whatever. I would just not use this pokemon unless it really fits the team. I will probably go to B- but let it drop slowly. Sash lycanrock is the best set imo, but really hard to fit and justify, so none of his sets justify its presence in A-.
Now, why should it be B-? Let's compare lycanrock with pokemons above A-, so in A, which is the best way to establish viablities. Lurantis and dugtrio are B, and are literally great as compared with lycanrock. They are easy to justify: dugtrio checks a plethora of pokemons with it's speed and typing and will always pressure the oppo, while lurantis is a balance slayer, with good bulk, recovery, defog etc. Lycanrock has got nothing to justify it over these mons, that's why I think it should be B-. If I need something to mess up with balance and being fast, my go-to pick will be dugtrio-A and not lycan

Comparing Lycanroc to these other Pokemon is unfair, since it does something completely different from Alolan Dugtrio and Lurantis. Swords Dance Lycanroc and Focus Sash Lycanroc aren't very comparable either, as they don't serve the same purpose. Palossand departing was really good for Lycanroc, since aside from it, the best checks to it at +2 are Gurdurr, which still takes about 60, and Gastrodon. Other typical defensive staples like Weezing, Mesprit, and Regirock get absolutely demolished by +2 Splintered Stormshards, which is big for teams that can struggle against these Pokemon. Setting up isn't as impossible for it as you make it out to be either because of its good Speed tier allowing it to force out Pokemon like Oricorio-G that isn't behind a Substitute, Alolan Dugtrio, Pyroar, and Aurorus and freely use Swords Dance. I agree that it isn't particularly the easiest to use, though that alone should not warrant it dropping, especially not an entire ranking.

Regarding other nominations, I agree with Lilligant and Bellossom rising, Alolan Dugtrio rising, Tangela rising, and Kangaskhan rising. do not lay a hand on shiftry though.
e: you also smash ferroclef aka most annoying fat core ever
e2: i also entirely disagree with most of the other nominations in this post. gurdurr is no s-rank pokemon and your arguments for why ferroseed isn't s-worthy are fairly mediocre, but i figured to leave those be, since i've had more experience with this thing.

 

[Ktütverde]

Comparing Lycanroc to these other Pokemon is unfair, since it does something completely different from Alolan Dugtrio and Lurantis. Swords Dance Lycanroc and Focus Sash Lycanroc aren't very comparable either, as they don't serve the same purpose. Palossand departing was really good for Lycanroc, since aside from it, the best checks to it at +2 are Gurdurr, which still takes about 60, and Gastrodon. Other typical defensive staples like Weezing, Mesprit, and Regirock get absolutely demolished by +2 Splintered Stormshards, which is big for teams that can struggle against these Pokemon. Setting up isn't as impossible for it as you make it out to be either because of its good Speed tier allowing it to force out Pokemon like Oricorio-G that isn't behind a Substitute, Alolan Dugtrio, Pyroar, and Aurorus and freely use Swords Dance. I agree that it isn't particularly the easiest to use, though that alone should not warrant it dropping, especially not an entire ranking.

Regarding other nominations, I agree with Lilligant and Bellossom rising, Alolan Dugtrio rising, Tangela rising, and Kangaskhan rising. do not lay a hand on shiftry though.
e: you also smash ferroclef aka most annoying fat core ever
e2: i also entirely disagree with most of the other nominations in this post. gurdurr is no s-rank pokemon and your arguments for why ferroseed isn't s-worthy are fairly mediocre, but i figured to leave those be, since i've had more experience with this thing.

Lycanrock is still a low-reward mon, which will be hard to setup, and if u manage to do so, might not even kill the switchin or be able to clean, making it a weird teambuilding choice, that might fit on spike stacking as a potential cleaner, or in HO with many other physical breakers. It mixes speed and sweeping potential in a unique way in PU, but doesnt really do it that well imo, and if u use it for the SSS nuke, better use a dedicated wallbreaker like zangoose with much more power and prio too.

As for gurdurr, I just forgot some points like:
-it forces the use of colbur mesprit. It might be justified by the presence of pursuit, but u would actually not use pursuit often without gurdurr: crunch on skuntank is a usually better option for a consistent dark stab, and spiritomb would love running crotomb sets but cannot mainly because of gurdurr being able to beat it 1v1. I'm pretty sure pursuit is ubiquitous because of gurdurr, that's probably a controversial point but my opinion.
-you have to run psychic spiritomb but i already said that
-it often forces u to use moonblast and not seismic toss on clefairy, as an emergency option for gurdurr and to somewhat check it at the cost of losing ur special wall. Moonblast cannot be justified for "power", " for crotomb" or "for a CM sweep" because 1) clef is weak, very weak offensively speaking 2) crotomb isnt really used 3) a Cm sweep is completely unlikely, and using CM+rock for stall is useless given that articuno beats it anyway even at +6 with pressure

calc

+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-silvally fairy isn't a great mon but is used mainly for gurdurr (solid knock absorber and bulky)
-shiinotic (lol) which has been justified by the players who used it as a very good gurdurr counter able to gain momentum vs it, which separates it from tangela
-sableye has to drop one of its fav moves in wow/knock to run an antigurdurr move
-also Z haze weezing which isnt really useful but can be used as a way more reliable gurdurr answer

Isn't that centralization? Can we call this "meta adaptation"? A+ stuff like regirock, clefairy, or sensu arent hard to deal with at teambuilding level and in games. You might even forget about them given that the former is food for skuntank which is highly used, and the two others just need a check.

I won't comment anymore about ferroseed because of how unique it is, like ferrothorn in OU, with leech+spikes+steel typing. It still is good only in the standard spikestacking teams which are actually all the same despite the variations with sensu, aurorus, poliwrath, chan and so on. If it doesnt have the right defensive backbone and a ghost usually, it might see its efforts become useless, so you end up making always the same ferro teams, which doesn't support the "splashable" argument.

Feel free to criticize.

 

[asa]

As for gurdurr, I just forgot some points like:
-it forces the use of colbur mesprit. It might be justified by the presence of pursuit, but u would actually not use pursuit often without gurdurr: crunch on skuntank is a usually better option for a consistent dark stab, and spiritomb would love running crotomb sets but cannot mainly because of gurdurr being able to beat it 1v1. I'm pretty sure pursuit is ubiquitous because of gurdurr, that's probably a controversial point but my opinion.
-you have to run psychic spiritomb but i already said that
-it often forces u to use moonblast and not seismic toss on clefairy, as an emergency option for gurdurr and to somewhat check it at the cost of losing ur special wall. Moonblast cannot be justified for "power", " for crotomb" or "for a CM sweep" because 1) clef is weak, very weak offensively speaking 2) crotomb isnt really used 3) a Cm sweep is completely unlikely, and using CM+rock for stall is useless given that articuno beats it anyway even at +6 with pressure

calc

+6 0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Articuno: 168-198 (43.7 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

-silvally fairy isn't a great mon but is used mainly for gurdurr (solid knock absorber and bulky)
-shiinotic (lol) which has been justified by the players who used it as a very good gurdurr counter able to gain momentum vs it, which separates it from tangela
-sableye has to drop one of its fav moves in wow/knock to run an antigurdurr move
-also Z haze weezing which isnt really useful but can be used as a way more reliable gurdurr answer

Isn't that centralization? Can we call this "meta adaptation"? A+ stuff like regirock, clefairy, or sensu arent hard to deal with at teambuilding level and in games. You might even forget about them given that the former is food for skuntank which is highly used, and the two others just need a check.

Colbur Berry Mesprit would still be excellent in a meta without Gurdurr because of the sheer amount of support it gives a team in just one slot, it's not forcing you to run that. Pursuit would still be a good move without Gurdurr as well due to the number of Normal- and other Fighting-types like Zangoose, Hitmonchan, and Primeape that can take advantage of faster Ghost-types being removed. Defensive Mesprit should not be used as your sole Fighting check imo, simply due to how easy it is to chip away with Stealth Rock, U-turn, other attackers, and so on. Teams using this Pokemon as their only Fighting check will of course struggle more against Gurdurr in the late-game, which is not the fault of Gurdurr but the opposing team.

Calm Mind Clefairy sweeping is not as unlikely as you make it out to be. You set up on figureheads like Ferroseed, defensive Mesprit, Regirock, and Spiritomb and are basically impossible to KO once stronger physical attackers have been removed. Also, of course Clefairy isn't going to be KOing Articuno with all that Special Defense investment, you even mention yourself that it isn't very strong. But 252 HP / 252 SpD Articuno seems very niche and lackluster in comparison to sets with maximum Speed investment.

These Pokemon aren't just used for Gurdurr. They all have merit and use outside of checking Gurdurr, like Defog support and beating Ferroseed if you play well enough, checking other Pokemon like Kingler, the sheer annoyance that Taunt + Will-O-Wisp can be for teams, and keeping setup sweepers like Clefairy in check while providing a form of recovery to a Pokemon that lacks it otherwise.

Even if Gurdurr is 'centralizing', it certainly isn't to the level that you make it out to be.

 

[Darkinium]

Shiinotic from UR to C/C-: Disagree

Reasoning

I dunno, I really used to think this thing could be in at least D, but after Megazard and HJAD's Untier Talk regarding the VR, it became more clear to me that this thing is just hopelessly outclassed by Tangela. Tangela's superior physical bulk even without Eviolite, being able to check the same threats such as Hitmonchan and Kingler, and having the same utilities such as Sleep Powder vs Spore and Leech Seed and Synthesis vs Strength Sap just makes me feel like this thing should stay in the shadow realm. The only thing even giving this Pokemon any form of merit is Strength Sap (why is your opponent keeping their physical attacker in on this) and Spore (is the 25% more accuracy than Sleep Powder really worth giving up everything else Tangela offers?) These perks are just so microscopic, I don't even think D is a suited place for this.

Wormadam-Trash from UR to C/C-: Leaning towards D/UR

Reasoning

This thing just competes so closely with Ferroseed, but, akin to the relationship between Mesprit and Grumpig, perhaps the Aurorus check could serve useful for very, very specific teams. Really though, if you need to give up Ferroseed to afford using this, staying in UR is far from impossible.

Lilligant from A- to A: Leaning towards A-

Reasoning

Magmortar leaving and Drampa kinda, uh, disappearing are both huge cards in this 'mon's hand. However, although it has the means to beat all its answers on paper, in practice it just can't: HP Fire > Z-Hyper Beam just leaves you walled by so much, Z-Sleep Powder to beat Choice Scarf users has the same issues, too. Z-Hyper Beam over the two aforementioned options still has big trouble with Choice Scarf users such as Pyroar, Primeape, and Togedemaru, and has no chance in hell of beating Ferroseed or Oricorio-Sensu. Overall, while I must admit that Magmortar and Drampa falling off the map has made it better, it still faces the same issues it always had.

Bellossom from C+ to B-/B: Agree

Reasoning

If you've ever watched a game featuring this Pokemon, there's no doubt that you know how easily it can sweep teams off their feet. Akin to Barrier Musharna, Bellossom can bolster both its defenses via QD and Strength Sap, allowing it to set up even more. I don't think much has changed in favor of this Pokemon barring the nonexistence of Magmortar and Drampa; if anything, it's just that this has been ranked way too low for way too long.

Alolan Dugtrio from B to B+: Agree

Reasoning

Nothing that hasn't already been said about this: SubToxic is annoying, and when backed by decent Attack and STABs as well as stellar Speed which is good against Pyroar, Oricorio-Sensu, etc., it'll usually be putting in work. It also has a good matchup against common foes such as the two aforementioned ones, Mesprit, Skuntank, Clefairy, Togedemaru, and more.

Carbink from B- to C+: Agree

Reasoning

Again, nothing much to add here: Drampa and Magmortar are gone, hyperbolically in the case of the former but still, so naturally this thing has less use. Admittedly stops Stall from getting its ass whooped by Oricorio-Sensu and Taunt Pyroar, but that's really its only surefire niche on stall: SR can be provided by other Pokemon, Choice Specs Aurorus doesn't really break stall anyways, and Dark-types are dealt with by Pyukumuku.

Kecleon from B- to B: Agree

Reasoning

Quite simply, coverage is amazing, and its priority is even more annoying to play around. The ability to change type before an opponent attacks is great, and Sucker Punch, Shadow Sneak, and Fake Out is unbearable for offense, not to mention STAB on all of them thanks to Protean. Knock Off is always spammable, Drain Punch gives longevity, too. Similar to Bellossom, nothing has helped it much in recent times, it's just underappreciated.

Kangaskhan from A- to A: Leaning towards A

Reasoning

To keep it concise, the only thing holding this back from A is the prevalance and splashability of Regirock and Ferroseed. However, given that those are only 2 Pokemon, how easy they are to pressure with Spikes, which is Kangaskhan's best friend, and Kangaskhan's overall great MU against offense and balance, I definitely think this can be A worthy.

Shiftry from B- to C+: Disagree

Reasoning

This thing has been beat down a lot in recent times, but this time around I'm stepping in to defend it, and not just out of pity: Knock Off is great at pressuring most if not all walls, a strong form of priority in Sucker Punch gives it some leverage against Offense, and Swords Dance is just terrifying once set up. What is probably its best set, Mixed Wallbreaker, is also good at, well, wallbreaking, doing tons upon tons to foes that don't resist its STABs, and chipping away very well at one of the few that do, Skuntank.

Oricorio-Sensu from A+ to A: Agree

Reasoning

I think this thing probably should've dropped a while ago. Nothing much to say other than Spiritomb's very existence, Eelektross and Regirock being easy to fit onto teams, the need for a hard Lilligant counter isn't as high as it used to be, etc.

Floatzel from A- to B+: Agree

Reasoning

Wasn't even certain of this thing being A- material during Archeops meta, and now... Its speed just has way less use with the recent ban, and this was never particularly strong, especially for a wallbreaker. This will always be both a favorite and a solid pick, but just not the stuff for A-.

Alolan Persian from B to B-: Disagree

Reasoning

Okay, the Archeops ban has definitely decreased this thing's usefulness. However, it still remains in my opinion a great option for VoltTurn teams, and other miscellaneous archetypes. Taunt + Toxic is a great stallbreaker, Parting Shot needs no explanation, and Z-Parting Shot's usefulness is, for lack of a better word, unparalleled; healing quickly worn down walls such as Eelektross and Mesprit, who both make excellent partners by the way, is amazing. Foul Play also makes Alolan Persian a better blanket physical attacker check.

Zebstrika from C- to D/UR: Agree

Reasoning

This thing basically takes Floatzel's situation and cranks it up to 11: this wasn't even a great pick during Archeops meta because it was just so weak and worthless against most other opponents... Now just tell me why you would use this over any other Electric-type. Speed? Do you really need the Floatzel and Alolan Persian check that bad, two mons that aren't even super common? Sap Sipper and Overheat? Don't tell me you can't afford a better Lilligant and Ferroseed check. Alright, the last point was perhaps a bit hyperbolic, but really, is even that niche worth keeping in C- for when other Electric-types are better in literally every other situation?

Lycanroc from A- to B/B-: Heavily Disagree

Reasoning

Ugh. Where do I even start with this one? Outside of, uh, Suicide Lead apparently being this thing's best set? the nomination severely downplayed this thing's power. First off, set up opportunities aren't that hard to find when you force out Non-Choice Scarf Pyroar, Oricorio-Sensu, specially defensive walls, etc. This isn't even accounting for the fact that Lycanroc doesn't even always need to set up to defeat an opposing team: fast and powerful Stone Edges and Accelerocks easily pick off weakened teams. As for walls, by late-game (which is when Lycanroc should be sweeping unless you have means of healing it back up for a second go), a +2 Splintered Stormshards will completely annihilate Regirock as well as even Pokemon that resist Rock, such as Ferroseed and Hitmonchan.

Calcs

+2 252 Atk Lycanroc Splintered Stormshards vs. 252 HP / 56+ Def Regirock: 271-321 (74.4 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

+2 252 Atk Lycanroc Splintered Stormshards vs. 248 HP / 128 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 179-211 (61.5 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252 Atk Lycanroc Splintered Stormshards vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Hitmonchan: 345-407 (117.7 - 138.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 Atk Lycanroc Splintered Stormshards vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gastrodon: 260-306 (61 - 71.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Jynx from A to A-/B+: Leaning towards A-

Reasoning

This thing just isn't as amazing as it used to be. Spiritomb and Togedemaru invalidate it entirely. Stuff like Regirock and Ferroseed, although definitely not surefire answers, give it much trouble as well. Nothing much to say about this thing, combination of both new introductions that stop it cold, as well as issues that have always existed, specifically reliance on luck and the existence of soft checks.

Oof, now that that's done... Gonna comment on two of the biggest recent proposals in this thread.

Ferroseed from A+ to S: Agree

This thing is just amazing. To kick it off, it's just a great blanket check to so many things: Skuntank, Mesprit, Normal-types, Regirock, Water-types, Carracosta, Spiritomb... the list is infinite. Secondly, for a defensive Pokemon, its ability to maintain pressure is astounding: Leech Seed slowly drains the for away while Ferroseed becomes even harder to break, Spikes's chip is stellar, Iron Barbs eats away at physical attackers, Gyro Ball is a great attacking move... The utility it brings to the table is amazing too; Spikes is obvious, but less common options such as Stealth Rock, Toxic, Thunder Wave, and Knock Off are equally as great for Ferroseed and its teammates.

As to opposition:

• "Fire-type moves destroy it." Uh, actually not all that true: most Silvally forms do not come even near to OHKOing with Flamethrower, and Ferroseed just Leech Seeds them while they have their numbered health drained away while simultaneously being pressured to remove its Spikes. Fire Punch Kangaskhan has the same issues, except Iron Barbs just makes the issue even worse. As for HP Fire Mesprit and Lilligant, both moves can easily be scouted via Protect, and in Mesprit's case Ferroseed can, again, simply recover again with Leech Seed. Not saying to use Ferroseed as your Pyroar answer, but random Fire-type coverage is usually, if not rarely going to be "gg ez."
• "Only fits on Spikestack and/or alongside Clefairy." Sorry, but please don't tell me that your team doesn't appreciate a Normal-type check, hazard setter, Psychic-type check, Skuntank check, and all that other good Ferroseed stuff. Clefairy is also far from a necessity, lol. Sure, it's a great partner, but it's not like the relationship between Shedinja and Natu, where one is practically nonexistent without the other.
• "Forces you to run a Rapid Spinner over a Defogger, as well as a spinblocker + Defiant user." Again, not obligatory. Sure, Rapid Spin keeps your own Spikes up, but you don't always need 3 layers up: sometimes 1 is all you need, and that's an easy demand to supply; 1 layer of Spikes isn't that different from Stealth Rock. A spinblocker and Defiant user are nothing but a bonus, either. Saying that each team Ferroseed is on is a Spikestack team is nothing short of being flat out wrong.
• "Loses to x, y, z." Goddamn it Ferroseed, why aren't you beating every fucking meta-relevant mon?! Really though, in my opinion the couple Pokemon that beat it is far outweighed by everything else it brings to the table.

Gurdurr from A+ to S: Heavily Disagree

Multiple arguments I want to address here that I disagree with and that I think are quite flawed:

• "Pair with a Pursuit trapper and we gucci." Sadly this is pretty damn far from the truth. Spiritomb just burns Skuntank; Defensive Mesprit is way harder to trap in practice, between predicting whether to use Crunch or Pursuit based on Mesprit switching or using U-turn, not to mention the initial protection given by Colbur Berry, and the fact that Mesprit can just U-turn out on a switch to Skuntank or Spiritomb. I also find this a bit hypocritical considering how it is then argued against Ferroseed that it requires a spinblocker, Rapid Spinner, Defiant user, and Clefairy considering how the nomination also goes on and on about how great Skuntank and Defensive Mesprit go with this thing...
• " 'Centralization.' " Well, first off, a Pokemon being centralizing isn't a super accurate measure of viability, which is kinda "eh" considering how much of the nomination is, heh, centralized around this... Look at Passimian, Magmortar, and OU Dugtrio, none of which were S rank prior to their ban. The nomination acts as if answers to Gurdurr are sparse and are considered on teams solely for their ability to beat it. This is also severely untrue: don't say that Mesprit, Weezing, Swanna, Oricorio-Sensu, Psychic Spiritomb, Sableye, etc. are garbage outside of beating Gurdurr, because, I'mma let you in on something, they're not.
• "Gurdurr requires multiple sturdy answers, with even counters such as Weezing and Defensive Mesprit not being enough." Really, that's just WAY too hyperbolic and, if anything, people aren't running two Fighting-type checks solely because of Gurdurr, lol

 

[TTK]

Shiftry from B- to C+: Disagree

Reasoning

This thing has been beat down a lot in recent times, but this time around I'm stepping in to defend it, and not just out of pity: Knock Off is great at pressuring most if not all walls, a strong form of priority in Sucker Punch gives it some leverage against Offense, and Swords Dance is just terrifying once set up. What is probably its best set, Mixed Wallbreaker, is also good at, well, wallbreaking, doing tons upon tons to foes that don't resist its STABs, and chipping away very well at one of the few that do, Skuntank.

Everyone of your other points are solid but I still have to address this one because I disagree completely.

• "Knock off is great at pressuring most if not all walls, a strong form of priority in Sucker Punch" - Sure it can do this but other offensive Dark-types will just outclass it. If Shiftry is pressuring these walls, then Absol and Raticate-Alola are doing the same thing, but better. There is a noticeable difference in damage between those 2 Dark-types and Shiftry and this warrants the use of them over Shiftry most of the time. The only thing that Shiftry has over them is Speed and only Speed and guess what? They are currently higher ranked than Shiftry on the VR. Now it's not the case that the VR is 100% accurate and clear-cut deciding which mons are better than one another, it changes regularly but there is a reason why Shiftry is lower ranked than them.
• "Swords Dance is just terrifying once set up" - Shiftry finds little opportunities to set up tbh and even when it does, unless all its checks on the opposing side are gone, and this mon has a lot of checks, including every common scarfer like I mentioned in my post, this thing's reign of potentially running through teams is just cut short and is revenge killed. (Was going to write easily but +2 Sucker does a chunk to most scarfers apart from Primeape)
• "Mixed Wallbreaker is good at wallbreaking, doing tons upon tons to foes that don't resist its STABs" - That is a bit of an exaggeration imo.
• "Chipping away very well at one of the few that do, Skuntank" - Only Adamant Skuntank is chipped by Leaf Storm and that's only if Shiftry is running Hasty. If Skuntank is running Jolly (Which is the most common nature), Shiftry doesn't even chip it at all because it is outsped and just gets OHKO'd by Poison Jab.

Calcs

4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 125-147 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- 90.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Shiftry: 350-414 (109 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO woop there goes Shiftry

I'm not out to get Shiftry, I'm just expressing my opinion that it should be C+.

 

[Darkinium]

Everyone of your other points are solid but I still have to address this one because I disagree completely.

• "Knock off is great at pressuring most if not all walls, a strong form of priority in Sucker Punch" - Sure it can do this but other offensive Dark-types will just outclass it. If Shiftry is pressuring these walls, then Absol and Raticate-Alola are doing the same thing, but better. There is a noticeable difference in damage between those 2 Dark-types and Shiftry and this warrants the use of them over Shiftry most of the time. The only thing that Shiftry has over them is Speed and only Speed and guess what? They are currently higher ranked than Shiftry on the VR. Now it's not the case that the VR is 100% accurate and clear-cut deciding which mons are better than one another, it changes regularly but there is a reason why Shiftry is lower ranked than them.
• "Swords Dance is just terrifying once set up" - Shiftry finds little opportunities to set up tbh and even when it does, unless all its checks on the opposing side are gone, and this mon has a lot of checks, including every common scarfer like I mentioned in my post, this thing's reign of potentially running through teams is just cut short and is revenge killed. (Was going to write easily but +2 Sucker does a chunk to most scarfers apart from Primeape)
• "Mixed Wallbreaker is good at wallbreaking, doing tons upon tons to foes that don't resist its STABs" - That is a bit of an exaggeration imo.
• "Chipping away very well at one of the few that do, Skuntank" - Only Adamant Skuntank is chipped by Leaf Storm and that's only if Shiftry is running Hasty. If Skuntank is running Jolly (Which is the most common nature), Shiftry doesn't even chip it at all because it is outsped and just gets OHKO'd by Poison Jab.

Calcs

4 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Skuntank: 125-147 (35.9 - 42.2%) -- 90.7% chance to 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252 Atk Skuntank Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Shiftry: 350-414 (109 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO woop there goes Shiftry

I'm not out to get Shiftry, I'm just expressing my opinion that it should be C+.

• I probably should've touched on this more in my defending post, but the wallbreaking edge Shiftry offers over Absol and Alolan Raticate is its Grass STAB. Forcing out Regirock, Gastrodon, Mudsdale, Poliwrath, etc. can be a big need for a good amount of teams, which is where Shiftry comes out over opposition. Outside of this, Shiftry's Defog is probably the second biggest, if not the biggest reason to use Shiftry over the two aforementioned competitors, which, admittedly, I probably should've said more explicitly as well.
• Its setup opportunities, similar to the previously-discussed Lycanroc, is in forcing out Pokemon it beats, such as Aurorus, Gastrodon, etc., which isn't too hard after a Pokemon has been KOed and Shiftry gets a free pass into th field. What is probably my biggest problem with this specific point is how it states that most common scarfers beat a +2 Shiftry:

Calcs

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Primeape: 203-240 (74.9 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO - Just needs a little bit of chip to be OHKOed.

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Togedemaru: 394-464 (145.3 - 171.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Pyroar: 355-419 (113.4 - 133.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mesprit: 523-616 (173.7 - 204.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Swanna: 398-468 (136.7 - 160.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Aurorus: 356-421 (91.9 - 108.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

• The Skuntank vs Shiftry scenario here is just far different from what it would and should look like in an actual game. I don't know if there was some massive break in communication here, but I think it should be kinda clear the situation I was describing was Skuntank switching into a Shiftry. When Skuntank is taking 35.9 - 42.2% from a Leaf Storm and 37.6 - 44.5% from an initial Knock Off, I don't think that's anything less than a great example of chip.

god forbid that you're keeping shiftry in on skuntank lol

 

[yogi]

Okay I'm on my phone right now, and it's currently very low, but I wanted to have my say with Shiftry. I don't believe it should drop. It's a rather unique Pokemon in the current meta, as Darkinium has highlighted in his post, with the ability run several different sets that all have unique utility moves compared to both Absol and Alolan Raticate, like Defog, Explosion, Rock Slide, etc. Pokemon like Skuntank and even Weezing are shaky answers thanks to either Swords Dance or Leaf Storm, so using them as examples isn't the best. While I do agree that both Absol and Alolan Raticate do the Swords Dance more consistently (bar the missing from Hustle from the latter) I can't help but feel like you're not considering the full utility Shiftry can offer with its multiple sets and customisable options.

 

[asa]

To make three posts in the span of two days shift things away from Gurdurr and Ferroseed, here's something that obliterates both!

Crabominable: C+ to B-

On the surface, Crabominable seems to work as a threatening wallbreaker that works under Trick Room and that alone, and it isn't particularly difficult to see why people would feel that way. However, I feel that certain meta trends have really been in favor of Crabominable as a standalone breaker. Crabominable thrives against balance, which is arguably the most common playstyle at the moment, with certain defensive cores like the omnipresent Ferroseed + Clefairy (+ Spiritomb) having an absolute headache attempting to deal with Crabominable. Substitute sets can very easily exploit how these Pokemon as well as others like Eelektross, Regirock, and Skuntank will more than likely switch out to avoid taking its strong attacks, allowing it to easily 2HKO the tier's go-to Fighting checks like defensive Mesprit and Weezing. Crabominable's passable bulk and Speed with investment allow it to take neutral attacks well and outpace certain slower threats, making it even better against bulkier builds. Against slower-paced teams, Crabominable can even afford to use Bulk Up and essentially always eliminate something with +1 Subzero Slammer. There are other options it can opt for Substitute + Focus Punch or Toxic to allow it to bypass other checks, which means that it isn't exactly the most predictable thing ever. The typing has basically zero resists and though it isn't perfectly defensively, it does give Crabominable the ability to serve as a decent offensive check to the increasingly threatening Aurorus.

There are more consistent Fighting-types than Crabominable admittedly, so it only needs a small rise imo.

a few replays bc i am not the best w words

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-749535459 - stall matchup. crabominable is a massive threat for the team and even manages to put in work when burned. after being healed by mesprit, it finishes off the game.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-749517658 - roomtour finals, bulky offensive / balance matchup. crabominable hits muk hard, sets up on crotomb, and essentially finishes off the game before the guy forfeits.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-749513513 - bulky offensive matchup. sets up on ferroseed, ohkos gurdurr with +1 subzero slammer, dishes out a massive hit to mesprit even with close combat, and KOes ferroseed. probably could've done more if i had used ice hammer against mesprit, but still.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-749461671 - jklioe playing. crabominable is again a massive threat for this team to deal with and is overly reliant on weezing and gastrodon to deal with fighting-types. crabominable shows off its decent bulk by taking hyper voice from pyroar, eliminating it and gastrodon as well as weezing with subzero slammer.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-749134370 - ok yes, the lower ranking on ladder might not say much, but it does show crabominable off well. it deletes gurdurr with focus punch and finishes the game off.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pu-749145597 - another stall matchup, this time showcasing toxic crabominable to get past pyukumuku. the opposing team cannot deal with it and thus it loses.

s/o jklioe for passing two of the three teams, giving me the idea do this, and officially bringing me out of retirement or smth.

 

[kay]

Hi its me, have some noms.

C- --> C+

Baby Xatu is extremely good at the moment as it really just disrupts the current balance builds. It shatters any Ferroseed reliant teams, can't be pursuit trapped by Tomb or Pjab Skunk thanks to Feather Dance, and overall it finds itself in a meta where it can thrive off these fat balance teams.

B- --> C/C-

With Magmortar leaving it finds itself mostly as a TR lead again, with the CM sets just being less viable version of CM Clef. Not a lot to say about it other then it being a relic of a meta past.

C+ --> B-/B

Tangela is quite literally one of the best defensive walls in the tier. Sure on most standard balance teams you'd have to make the choice between Ferroseed or Tangela, but Regen + insane bulk lets it cover majority of the metas physical threats, and with Magmortar out of the picture it lost its biggest abuser. The past 2 bans have only really helped the state its in so it can probably be bumped out of the C ranks as now that its a general catch all with very little draw backs.

B --> B+

Same thing as Tangela. It lost its 2 main abusers in Archeops and Magmortar who could break Audino and safely switch in, and as a result Audino Balance gained a lot more viability. Not a lot to say about it because everyone kinda already knows what it does, but just not having to worry about giving Archeops and Magmortar free switch ins makes it so much easier to justify this over something like a Type Null as a generic special wall.

A- --> A

With Magmortar and Archeops leaving the tier lost some of its biggest wall breakers, and the biggest winner of this is Eggy-a as its ability to slaughter defensive cores is now unmatched, and it lost 2 of the better offensive checks with the 2 recent bans. OTR also has amazing match up into anything offensive which gives it a really good match up across the board.

 

[Arcobaleno]

Gurdurr A+ -› S : Disagree
Even if Gurdurr is a very great eviolite tank, very annoying for most part of teams, i think it really has to be supported to shine, the Mesprit-Gurdurr core is a very threatening core with HW support, but Gurdurr alone is easily weakened by rocky helmet recoil, strong physical wallbreakers such as Aggron or Lycanroc. S rank is for mons that don't need any support to shine.

Ferroseed A+ -› S : Totally Disagree
Check Ktutverde reasoning

Natu C- -› C+ : Disagree
That thing should be unranked, terribad stats, mediocre typing, trapped by Skuntrap/Spiritrap, its only "niche" is the access to magic bounce, but it's to frail to perf.

Lilligant A- -› A : Agree
Thing is you have to check its set , and a mistake could be catastrophic. Lilli can run a qd + 3 atk, and if you switch to absorb sleep powder, it's very risky. Drampa isn't in every teams, and z beam can break drampa/eggy, it's a 50/50. If scarf Swanna is so popular, it's because of lilli (and jynx), togedemaru is forced to u-turn, and risk an other qd, primeape has to Gunk Miss, and Pyroar has to no miss, scarf jynx doesn't kill +1 lilli. It's a huge threat in PU metagame.

Audino B -› B+ : Agree
Audino is known for annoying stall cores, and because it's the best wish support in the entiere tier, with its access to regeneragod. But it now find another niche, chople TR is one of the best TR inducer with its access to encore to punish sub spam, HW support, and aforementioned regenerator.

Sableye A- -› B : Disagree
It's still a very annoying mon, able to check most part of fighting/dark type, with access to a plethora of lure sets (fairium, RH, CM, etc...)

Silvally-G C+ -> B- : Agree
The need of this mon is simply because it's one of the best offensive anti spinner in PU, with a great natural bulk, nice speed, able to check fighting types easier than oricorio-S, and pivot. And because it's special oriented, it makes very good cores in kanghaspikes.

 

[Arcobaleno]

It would help to have at least a semblance of your own opinion, especially when the original opinion wasn't very good

Ferroseed :
If you really want an explanation (this jugement wasn't very cool from you to Ktut, anyway) ...Ferro has only one viable set, that's why it's very predictable, it's not particularly versatile, and very passive, sub mons, strong wallbreakers can easily switch in. A most part of hazard removers are able to pressure Ferro (chan, silvally, Skuntank, lurantis, Swanna Z, etc..). Furthermore, it's a set up niche for a plethora of mons, such as Clefairy, Gurdurr etc.. Most part of grass such as tangela, lilligant, lurantis, Eggy pack coverage to punish ferro which can't leech them.

Natu :
Really? Reflect 5 turns eviolite, what a niche. It's totally outclassed as a screener. Feather dance works only with spiritomb, and feather dance means that you can't hit steel types. It can't check fighting type, all of them hit heavily natu, with koff or ice punch. Bad offensive stats, bad defensive stats even with eviolite or feather dance, it's like running def murkrow, it's just bad. Its overall stats are just too low to exerce any pressure. Like i've said, its only niche is magic bounce to "counter" mesprit/ferro, but C+ is too much.

Silvally-G :
It is. It's able to pivot on common spinner with access to parting shot, Oricorio-S is destroyed by Ice Punch/koff, misdreavus depends of its eviolite, Golurk is an offensive rocs also weak to chan. Spiritomb is the best anti spin in the tier for offensive teams, that's why i've said "one of the best" and not "the best". Silvally has access to SD, mixed offensive sets to break chan, offensive spe to pressure a little gurdurr, when you want Silvally-G in the same rank as Natu, i don't agree.