Resource USM Ubers Viability Ranking Thread

[Vengeance417]

Kangaskhan mega should atleast have B+ ranking. Because its parental bond ability threatens the opponent.Body slam has 60% chance of paralysing the target.It can learn fake out,sucker punch, crunch, seismic toss, power up punch, rock tomb. All these moves make it a real monster.

Hey, welcome to Smogon :)

When you nominate a mon, you'll want to base it off of how it stacks up alongside the current metagame trends, not just listing aspects of the mon people here most likely already know. We get that it has those attributes, but how well does Mega Kangaskhan actually perform in practice? A good way to back up your nomination is to provide good replays of your selected mon so people can see it in action.

There were some discussions about Necrozma-DW while the revamp was going on in C&C section. Both me and others came to an agreement that the only viable way to use it is just using its Ghost typing to block Rapid Spin and use Ultra Burst afterwards. I assume Necrozma-DW was ranked at C- earlier because Necrozma-DW had its own set (Trick Room + Lunalium Z) on the dex site, which will be removed as soon as revamp is done. Do these mean that Necrozma-DW should now be sent to the shadow realm as its only viable use is technically using it as Ultra Necrozma, which is separately ranked on VR?

Regarding Necrozma-DW, it'll have its own set on the Smogon dex after the revamp from my understanding, which is going to be with Ultranecrozium Z + Moongeist Beam, something that Necrozma-DM can't have. That alone should allow for Necrozma-DW to have some kind of standing in the VR, even if it's D rank in the end. It hits bulky Psychics such as Mega Slowbro, the Mewtwos, and especially Lunala while also slamming Giratina-O pretty hard when not running Dragon Pulse, which are mons that Special Necrozma-DM can have issues getting past.

 

[Serial]

DW's set will be a SD Ultra set, which has a niche as a spinblocking wallbreaker on webs. The other sets will be in Other Options.

 

[Mystery Secret]

I don't know if it is just me but should the two Ultra Necrozmas be ranked separately? Ultra Necrozma that started out as Dusk Mane is a lot more viable than one that started off as Dawn Wings.

 

[MaahirMomtaz12]

I don't know if it is just me but should the two Ultra Necrozmas be ranked separately? Ultra Necrozma that started out as Dusk Mane is a lot more viable than one that started off as Dawn Wings.

Nooo that makes things convoluted

 

[pooyou123456789q]

There are only two relevant spinners, one of which beats DW. Neither of them are common anyways(Excadrill is at 2.8% and Cloysteris at 1.9% according to 1630 stats) so I support it getting unranked.

 

[ChrystalFalchion]

Just curious but what prompted Lunala to move up to A-? And at the top of A- no less. Marshadow is still common, Yveltal is always a threat and Darkceus is getting more popular as it's a support Arceus that is not susceptible to shadow tag. Not that I'm complaining , I love that Pokémon , I am just curious.

 

[TayyibZ]

Just curious but what prompted Lunala to move up to A-? And at the top of A- no less. Marshadow is still common, Yveltal is always a threat and Darkceus is getting more popular as it's a support Arceus that is not susceptible to shadow tag. Not that I'm complaining , I love that Pokémon , I am just curious.

I was about to ask the same thing, but here is my best guess:

There is nothing that can come in on this pokemon safely, not even Blissey, especially when it is boosted. Ultra Necrozma is on the rise as well, and of course, you need DM or DW to Ultra Burst, both of which it counters. Lunala has so many coverage moves, and with USM giving it tutor moves, it now has access to things like Heat Wave. It also gets things like Defog and Tailwind, as well. With Yveltal and Ho-oh dropping, this thing has even less mons to threaten it (Though it does have Psyshock and Z-Move for Ho-oh and Ice Beam/Moonblast for Yveltal).

Few Calcs:
252 SpA Lunala Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Yveltal: 232-274 (59 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Lunala Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom vs. 252 HP / 52 SpD Ho-Oh: 225-265 (54 - 63.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Lunala Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 270-318 (41.4 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Serial]

Marsh cant rlly stop luna from nuking things with z unless it gets risky doubles right and carries pursuit. yveltal is easy to wear down and standard sets lose after rocks if luna has a cm boost. darkceus raise was in many ways a reaction to luna being good. outside of those 3 mons nothing can really stop luna from cming and nuking a ko or two. counterplay is often limited to sacking something to get off tox/break multiscale, or trying to force up rocks which a luna team will likely be prepared for.

in addition, there are many hazard denial options that let lunala maintain shadow shield to give it defensive utility vs offensive matchups. support sets have also seen a bit of use, being able to constantly refresh shadow shield with roost, and are viable (i think there are replays of it in use in kyogref4ns recent seasonal games)

 

[InvalidOS]

Primal Kyogre A --> A+

Offensive Calm Mind is the set used for this analysis.

Capable of 2HKO on Zygarde-Complete without boosts, possible OHKO with boosts, and guaranteed OHKO on Zygarde before Power Construct takes effect.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 836-988 (131.4 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 560-660 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 560-660 (133.3 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Capable of OHKO on defensive Groudon-Primal, though has to switch in on it or Desolate Land will take priority.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal in Heavy Rain: 1132-1336 (280.8 - 331.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Can be OHKOed by offensive Stealth Rock Groudon-Primal, though highly unlikely.
236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 262-309 (75 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

OHKOed by offensive Swords Dance Groudon-Primal.
+2 160 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 454-535 (130 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2HKOed by Necrozma-DM without boosts, OHKOed by Necrozma-DM with boosts.
252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 180-213 (51.5 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 358-423 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

OHKOes Necrozma-DM, but is threatened by Necrozma-DM with boosts due to Necrozma outspeeding. Having a Substitute can allow Kyogre to get the KO.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Heavy Rain: 343-405 (102.3 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kyogre-Primal Speed: Base 90, 31 IVs, 152 EVs, 254 Spe
Necrozma-DM Speed: Base 77, 31 IVs, 252 EVs, 278 Spe

CM Kyogre may struggle against defensive Kyogre, as it needs a +3 SpA boost before it can 2HKO. However, it can still easily get the +3 boost if it's at full health.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 72-85 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

With a +1 SpA boost, Kyogre-Primal 2HKOes +1 SpD Gothitelle.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle in Heavy Rain: 249-294 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyogre-Primal actually is better off using Origin Pulse on Yveltal than using Ice Beam.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal in Heavy Rain: 559-658 (122.5 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 408-480 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

If Kyogre had just a little more speed, this would matter.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 508-598 (123.6 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Unfortunately (or fortunately), Xerneas does win after Geomancy...
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 352-416 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +2 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 255-301 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...Unless Kyogre has +3 boosts, which is highly unlikely.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. +3 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 142-168 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +2 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 424-499 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Overall, I think Kyogre-Primal is worthy of getting boosted to A+. It has too many checks to be S rank, but I don't think A does it any justice.

 

[TayyibZ]

Primal Kyogre A --> A+

Offensive Calm Mind is the set used for this analysis.

Capable of 2HKO on Zygarde-Complete without boosts, possible OHKO with boosts, and guaranteed OHKO on Zygarde before Power Construct takes effect.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 836-988 (131.4 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 560-660 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 560-660 (133.3 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Capable of OHKO on defensive Groudon-Primal, though has to switch in on it or Desolate Land will take priority.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal in Heavy Rain: 1132-1336 (280.8 - 331.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Can be OHKOed by offensive Stealth Rock Groudon-Primal, though highly unlikely.
236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 262-309 (75 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

OHKOed by offensive Swords Dance Groudon-Primal.
+2 160 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 454-535 (130 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2HKOed by Necrozma-DM without boosts, OHKOed by Necrozma-DM with boosts.
252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 180-213 (51.5 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 358-423 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

OHKOes Necrozma-DM, but is threatened by Necrozma-DM with boosts due to Necrozma outspeeding. Having a Substitute can allow Kyogre to get the KO.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Heavy Rain: 343-405 (102.3 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kyogre-Primal Speed: Base 90, 31 IVs, 152 EVs, 254 Spe
Necrozma-DM Speed: Base 77, 31 IVs, 252 EVs, 278 Spe

CM Kyogre may struggle against defensive Kyogre, as it needs a +3 SpA boost before it can 2HKO. However, it can still easily get the +3 boost if it's at full health.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 72-85 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

With a +1 SpA boost, Kyogre-Primal 2HKOes +1 SpD Gothitelle.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle in Heavy Rain: 249-294 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyogre-Primal actually is better off using Origin Pulse on Yveltal than using Ice Beam.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal in Heavy Rain: 559-658 (122.5 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 408-480 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

If Kyogre had just a little more speed, this would matter.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 508-598 (123.6 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Unfortunately (or fortunately), Xerneas does win after Geomancy...
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 352-416 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +2 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 255-301 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...Unless Kyogre has +3 boosts, which is highly unlikely.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. +3 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 142-168 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +2 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 424-499 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Overall, I think Kyogre-Primal is worthy of getting boosted to A+. It has too many checks to be S rank, but I don't think A does it any justice.

"Usage stats and replays are good to support your arguments, but avoid basing your entire argument around them."
Now, to be honest, I really wouldn't put in what OHKOs it or is good against it. To me, this half sounds like you want Pogre going down in rank and half want an increase. It would obviously OHKO Pdon in rain, seeing how it is 4x weak. As for Zygarde, that is also obvious. Almost every set carries ice beam.
Here is it's weakness: Pogre relies too much on the current state of the game. Zygarde-C is one of the tankiest mons. It can come in on almost anything. Yveltal has a Psychic and Ground immunity, with access to Sucker Punch, it can predict a move from Pdon or Ultra Necro and revenge kill them. Marshadow also has Priority, so if the state of the game is that you are being swept, this thing can predict a move and help you out. I feel Pogre is in the spot it should be.

 

[InvalidOS]

"Usage stats and replays are good to support your arguments, but avoid basing your entire argument around them."
Now, to be honest, I really wouldn't put in what OHKOs it or is good against it. To me, this half sounds like you want Pogre going down in rank and half want an increase. It would obviously OHKO Pdon in rain, seeing how it is 4x weak. As for Zygarde, that is also obvious. Almost every set carries ice beam.
Here is it's weakness: Pogre relies too much on the current state of the game. Zygarde-C is one of the tankiest mons. It can come in on almost anything. Yveltal has a Psychic and Ground immunity, with access to Sucker Punch, it can predict a move from Pdon or Ultra Necro and revenge kill them. Marshadow also has Priority, so if the state of the game is that you are being swept, this thing can predict a move and help you out. I feel Pogre is in the spot it should be.

Thanks for the criticism. It is appreciated.

 

[pooyou123456789q]

Kyogre C -> C-/Unranked

The only reason this isn't D is cause it can wreck stall with specs, but stall is shit now, making this thing irrelevant.

 

[Katy]

Kyogre C -> C-/Unranked

The only reason this isn't D is cause it can wreck stall with specs, but stall is shit now, making this thing irrelevant.

I harshly DISAGREE with Kyogre to a lower rank or even unranked. Its Specs set still wrecks havoc and scarf Water Spout is dangerous to switchin if you dont have something to slow it down or lost your rain answer in Primal Groudon.
Kyogre still is fantastic at what it does and saw a decent amount of normal Kyogres lately again and all their sets where scary to face. In every battle it put in a decent amount of work. The metagame didnt change to Kyogre disadvantage either.

UberWhale aka Kyogre keep at C.

 

[Lotus]

A- to B+

Arceus-Fairy reminds me of the fact that many balance teams persist in same erroneous mindset, thinking it is "a glue mon" which can provide various utility options in both offensive and defensive sides. Arceus-Fairy is indeed a Pokemon that is capable of blanket checking many things, but some players fail to account for the downsides it leaves its own team to deal with.

The first tragic flaw of Arceus-Fairy I would like to point out is its strapped moveslot. Support variants of Arceus-Fairy prefers taking advantage of its offensive typing to be a Stealth Rock setter that can force out Mega Sableye and therefore struggles fitting both Toxic and Will-O-Wisp. I witness more balance teams employing both Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM in their team and this means that Arceus-Fairy will inevitably be taken advantage by either of them due to lacking Toxic against the former or lacking Will-O-Wisp against the latter. Many people, including myself, have attempted to experiment on dual status Arceus-Fairy to maximize the number of Pokemon it can punish, but this means that Arceus-Fairy will forgo Stealth Rock and will no longer be able to compress the roles it previously did. Even with this dedicated and niche adjustment of moveset, Arceus-fairy continues to struggle against any team with Ho-Oh and Toxapex.

The second flaw of Arceus-Fairy is other Pokemon fulfilling similar roles while providing other utilities. Other Arceus formes like Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Water rose as viable Stealth Rock users that can threaten common Defog users. Whereas Arceus-Water prevents every Defog users apart from Giratina-A from staying in, Arceus-Dark stands as a Stealth Rock setter that discourages Lunala lead, avoids Shadow Tag trapping, and checks other threatening foes like Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma. Arceus-Fairy too threatens Defog users like both Giratina formes, but it fails to keep Stealth Rock from staying on the field with its inability to threaten Defog Ho-Oh and Skarmory - choosing to run Fire Blast over Toxic to deal with Skarmory leads Arceus-Fairy to being completely useless against Ho-Oh. As a Stealth Rock user, Arceus-Fairy also has unfavorable matchup against other relevant Stealth Rock setters like Primal Groudon, Necrozma-DM, or even Excadrill, which it cannot take out swiftly. Calm Mind sets fails to threaten balance teams as Arceus-Fairy will never be able to justify both Earth Power and Fire Blast in its moveset, and specially defensive Necrozma-DM easily walls this set regardless, leaving Arceus-Ground, Arceus-Flying, and Arceus-Dark as far better Calm Mind users than Arceus-Fairy in most instances.

The third flaw of Arceus-Fairy is its inability to check foes properly. While Arceus-Fairy is one of the few Pokemon that can reliably take STAB combinations from Yveltal and Marshadow, it is often forced to use Recover to prevent it from getting picked off by Marshadow / stay healthy enough to take +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Lucario / other purposes and often ends up 'meat-shielding' hits and yielding momentum to dangerous threats like Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM. Arceus-Fairy's effectiveness as a pivot is further diminished by its vulnerability to both Shadow Tag users and vulnerability to status moves and this leads to my final point.

As publicly known, Arceus-Fairy's efficiency is undermined by its vulnerability to Shadow Tag trapping, and this worsens players' headache with teambuilding when they are already concerned about Gothitelle's presence when deciding to use an Arceus forme in the first place. To specify, every relevant cleric apart from Magearna are vulnerable to Mega Gengar, and pairing Magearna with Arceus-Fairy to alleviate it of status moves (which it will be inflicted with while combating Defog users, Yveltal, and other threats) will make the team more vulnerable to aforementioned common threats. This means that Arceus-Fairy's vulnerability to Shadow Tag not only hampers its usefulness in certain matchups but it also worsens the difficulty of a cleric justifying a place in the team and thus making Arceus-Fairy making easier to overload in general.

With this many drawbacks and opportunity costs coming from this Arceus forme, I refuse to believe that A- is an appropriate place for Arceus-Fairy when its efficiency with defensively checking foes and providing utility options are progressively declining. The benefit from using Arceus-Fairy is nowhere close to other Pokemon dwelling in A- like Magearna, Arceus-Dark, Toxapex, and Ferrothorn. I therefore believe the most accurate representation of Arceus-Fairy's viability in the current metagame state is somewhere lower than A- rank. B+ is what I propose for now.

 

[Ropalme1914]

A > A+: Disagree
Can't see how anything changed to make it raise. Not much to talk here, it still lacks any switch-ins, but strong physical Pokémon that are faster than it like Zygarde-C (especially with Groundium Z) and Ultra Necrozma being even more used is not good news to it. It's fine where it is.

C > C-/UR: Keep it C or drop to C-
Even if stall is not the most dominant playstyle, it still is exists. C- probably is better, but I disagree with UR, it still is better than Darkrai, Mega Gross and Mega Latias imo, which are even more outclassed than it by other Pokémon.

A- > B+: Agree
DMDW said everything. Isn't good at role compressing at all (especially with other Arceus formes being able to do that) and always is vulnerable to the most common or second most common Pokémon in the tier.

&

: A+ > S
I have to agree with what Cynara said, those Pokémon are a cut above those on A+. Zygarde-C basically has an answer to everything that checks, especially with Toxic Spikes up. The insane winrate on SPL further proves that, and almost every team had to adapt to it (and balance/stall still lacks counterplay to it alongside Gothitelle outside of like, Darkceus). It also can provide utility to the team with Glare to spread paralisys and Speed control, Thousand Waves trapping Pokémon so that you have a free switch to your check, and even making Zygarde-C able to setup to +6 against some pretty common Pokémon like defensive Primal Groudon, Ferrothorn and Sp. Def Dusk Mane. The defensive set is still as good as ever (being actually one of the few switch-ins to Primal Groudon's Overheat) and checking some rising threats like Ultra Necrozma and Solganium Z Sp. Def Dusk Mane Necrozma. Some of its better checks also aren't as good as before, like Fairyceus. There isn't much else to add I think outside of what was already said back when people were nominating it to S-, I would just repeat the same argument over and over.

Mega Gengar still does what it always did, trapping stuff and blablabla. However, Gengar greatly benefits from the raise of Ultra Necrozma since it basically makes it so that it can't get more than one KO in a match. Hex trapper always beats Necrozma-DM unless it is Double Dance and it uses its Z-Move turn 1, and even it is KOed, a burned Dusk Mane can be used as setup bait to other Pokémon like Primal Groudon or Zygarde-C. Ho-Oh dropping is algo good for it. It still is probably the Pokémon that always either gets a KO or opens the path for another on every match. I don't think the others A+ have as much decisive power as this thing (obv outside of Zygarde-C and maybe Xerneas), and it's why it is a step above them.

This probably will be a decision for the council, but imo Necrozma-DW should stay ranked even if it is only for Ultra Necrozma, if it spinblocking, then there is a motive to use it instead of Dusk Mane.

 

[Cynara]

I'll provide my thoughts on some nominations posted recently.

C to C-/UR: Disagree

The only reason this isn't D is cause it can wreck stall with specs, but stall is shit now, making this thing irrelevant.

Completely disagree with this one, I feel this argument point is very weak also, there isn't much substance to back this up. Arguably stall teams aren't as effective as they used to be, they still exist. Despite this, Kyogre isn't 'irrelevant' at all as far as its viability and niches are concerned. Specs Kyogre is very strong whatever way you look at it though I do agree its a very niche team choice. Even if it doesn't play against stall, Kyogre is still able to function as a breaker against balances and other slower Pokemon, its absurdly strong in the rain and can cause common Pokemon on defensive backbones to fold due to its sheer power such as Support Arceus' or Giratina-O etc. Players who prefer a slightly stronger matchup against faster builds such as Bulky Offense that still would employ a decent defensive backbone on their teams, Choice Scarf is also an option, this allows Kyogre to get a jump on other frailer targets and give it more valuable revenge killing capabilities too that would otherwise threaten it such as Marshadow, Mega Lucario, Unboosted Salamence etc.

The main issue with regular kyogre and especially choice sets is the huge 'guessing game' which in turn can cause some 50/50 moments of 'does the opponent switch in Primal Groudon on the water move or do they Ice Beam?' which I honestly feel is the largest downside to Kyogre and could mean you could completely lose momentum with an incorrect guess. this also means Kyogre requires a considerable amount of team support that is required which makes it inferior to Primal Kyogre which is a Pokemon that faces some teambuilding constraints itself.

If you manage to remove Primal Groudon, this set can start taking a hefty toll on against opposing teams and you simply can't ignore the power and small merits that Regular Kyogre can sometimes have over Primal Kyogre. Despite its flaws I feel its attributes still warrant it of the C rank.

A- to B+ - Agree

Arceus-Fairy reminds me of the fact that many balance teams persist in same erroneous mindset, thinking it is "a glue mon" which can provide various utility options in both offensive and defensive sides. Arceus-Fairy is indeed a Pokemon that is capable of blanket checking many things, but some players fail to account for the downsides it leaves its own team to deal with.

The first tragic flaw of Arceus-Fairy I would like to point out is its strapped moveslot. Support variants of Arceus-Fairy prefers taking advantage of its offensive typing to be a Stealth Rock setter that can force out Mega Sableye and therefore struggles fitting both Toxic and Will-O-Wisp. I witness more balance teams employing both Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM in their team and this means that Arceus-Fairy will inevitably be taken advantage by either of them due to lacking Toxic against the former or lacking Will-O-Wisp against the latter. Many people, including myself, have attempted to experiment on dual status Arceus-Fairy to maximize the number of Pokemon it can punish, but this means that Arceus-Fairy will forgo Stealth Rock and will no longer be able to compress the roles it previously did. Even with this dedicated and niche adjustment of moveset, Arceus-fairy continues to struggle against any team with Ho-Oh and Toxapex.

The second flaw of Arceus-Fairy is other Pokemon fulfilling similar roles while providing other utilities. Other Arceus formes like Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Water rose as viable Stealth Rock users that can threaten common Defog users. Whereas Arceus-Water prevents every Defog users apart from Giratina-A from staying in, Arceus-Dark stands as a Stealth Rock setter that discourages Lunala lead, avoids Shadow Tag trapping, and checks other threatening foes like Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma. Arceus-Fairy too threatens Defog users like both Giratina formes, but it fails to keep Stealth Rock from staying on the field with its inability to threaten Defog Ho-Oh and Skarmory - choosing to run Fire Blast over Toxic to deal with Skarmory leads Arceus-Fairy to being completely useless against Ho-Oh. As a Stealth Rock user, Arceus-Fairy also has unfavorable matchup against other relevant Stealth Rock setters like Primal Groudon, Necrozma-DM, or even Excadrill, which it cannot take out swiftly. Calm Mind sets fails to threaten balance teams as Arceus-Fairy will never be able to justify both Earth Power and Fire Blast in its moveset, and specially defensive Necrozma-DM easily walls this set regardless, leaving Arceus-Ground, Arceus-Flying, and Arceus-Dark as far better Calm Mind users than Arceus-Fairy in most instances.

The third flaw of Arceus-Fairy is its inability to check foes properly. While Arceus-Fairy is one of the few Pokemon that can reliably take STAB combinations from Yveltal and Marshadow, it is often forced to use Recover to prevent it from getting picked off by Marshadow / stay healthy enough to take +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Lucario / other purposes and often ends up 'meat-shielding' hits and yielding momentum to dangerous threats like Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM. Arceus-Fairy's effectiveness as a pivot is further diminished by its vulnerability to both Shadow Tag users and vulnerability to status moves and this leads to my final point.

As publicly known, Arceus-Fairy's efficiency is undermined by its vulnerability to Shadow Tag trapping, and this worsens players' headache with teambuilding when they are already concerned about Gothitelle's presence when deciding to use an Arceus forme in the first place. To specify, every relevant cleric apart from Magearna are vulnerable to Mega Gengar, and pairing Magearna with Arceus-Fairy to alleviate it of status moves (which it will be inflicted with while combating Defog users, Yveltal, and other threats) will make the team more vulnerable to aforementioned common threats. This means that Arceus-Fairy's vulnerability to Shadow Tag not only hampers its usefulness in certain matchups but it also worsens the difficulty of a cleric justifying a place in the team and thus making Arceus-Fairy making easier to overload in general.

With this many drawbacks and opportunity costs coming from this Arceus forme, I refuse to believe that A- is an appropriate place for Arceus-Fairy when its efficiency with defensively checking foes and providing utility options are progressively declining. The benefit from using Arceus-Fairy is nowhere close to other Pokemon dwelling in A- like Magearna, Arceus-Dark, Toxapex, and Ferrothorn. I therefore believe the most accurate representation of Arceus-Fairy's viability in the current metagame state is somewhere lower than A- rank. B+ is what I propose for now.

I agree with this nomination, I actually brought this up on the previous viability rankings update, DMDW actually covered the points as to why considerably well, so I won't elaborate as much as I usually do.

I honestly do feel Arceus-Fairy isn't really capable of pulling the stops as a top support Arceus anymore and is being overshadowed considerably by other formes of Arceus such as Dark and Water Arceus due to their superior defensive capabilities they bring to team structures. Therefore they have been also occupying Arceus-Fairy's support role as a Stealth setter as well in recent metagame trends as these Arceus aren't complete Mega Gengar bait compared to Arceus-Fairy which is really huge, trappers are quite prevalent in USM Ubers and Mega Gengar is arguably one of the most threatening Pokemon in Ubers right now. Arceus-Dark in particular, cannot be directly threatened by any major trapper in the tier (think Gengar, Gothitelle/Gothorita) whatsoever and this is a big boon for it, becoming the metagame trend to be the foundations of the defensive backbone on teams. Furthermore I feel as a support Fairy, Xerneas has the superior support moves currently, with access to Aromatherapy, can actually pull off the Defog support role and is actually stronger against offense as it is able to utilise all of this on the Choice Scarf set.

A to A+ - Disagree

Offensive Calm Mind is the set used for this analysis.

Capable of 2HKO on Zygarde-Complete without boosts, possible OHKO with boosts, and guaranteed OHKO on Zygarde before Power Construct takes effect.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 836-988 (131.4 - 155.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde-Complete: 560-660 (88 - 103.7%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Zygarde: 560-660 (133.3 - 157.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Capable of OHKO on defensive Groudon-Primal, though has to switch in on it or Desolate Land will take priority.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal in Heavy Rain: 1132-1336 (280.8 - 331.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Can be OHKOed by offensive Stealth Rock Groudon-Primal, though highly unlikely.
236+ Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 262-309 (75 - 88.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

OHKOed by offensive Swords Dance Groudon-Primal.
+2 160 Atk Groudon-Primal Precipice Blades vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 454-535 (130 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

2HKOed by Necrozma-DM without boosts, OHKOed by Necrozma-DM with boosts.
252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 180-213 (51.5 - 61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Photon Geyser vs. 32 HP / 124 Def Kyogre-Primal: 358-423 (102.5 - 121.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

OHKOes Necrozma-DM, but is threatened by Necrozma-DM with boosts due to Necrozma outspeeding. Having a Substitute can allow Kyogre to get the KO.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in Heavy Rain: 343-405 (102.3 - 120.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Kyogre-Primal Speed: Base 90, 31 IVs, 152 EVs, 254 Spe
Necrozma-DM Speed: Base 77, 31 IVs, 252 EVs, 278 Spe

CM Kyogre may struggle against defensive Kyogre, as it needs a +3 SpA boost before it can 2HKO. However, it can still easily get the +3 boost if it's at full health.
200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 168+ SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 99-117 (24.5 - 28.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 4HKO
0 SpA Kyogre-Primal Scald vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal in Heavy Rain: 72-85 (20.6 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO

With a +1 SpA boost, Kyogre-Primal 2HKOes +1 SpD Gothitelle.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gothitelle in Heavy Rain: 249-294 (72.3 - 85.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Kyogre-Primal actually is better off using Origin Pulse on Yveltal than using Ice Beam.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal in Heavy Rain: 559-658 (122.5 - 144.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Yveltal: 408-480 (89.4 - 105.2%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

If Kyogre had just a little more speed, this would matter.
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 508-598 (123.6 - 145.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Unfortunately (or fortunately), Xerneas does win after Geomancy...
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 352-416 (100.8 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +2 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 255-301 (62 - 73.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

...Unless Kyogre has +3 boosts, which is highly unlikely.
+2 252+ SpA Xerneas Thunder vs. +3 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 142-168 (40.6 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+3 200+ SpA Kyogre-Primal Origin Pulse vs. +2 72 HP / 100 SpD Xerneas in Heavy Rain: 424-499 (103.1 - 121.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Overall, I think Kyogre-Primal is worthy of getting boosted to A+. It has too many checks to be S rank, but I don't think A does it any justice.

I feel Primal Kyogre is a bit of a luxury mon in the current metagame and this whole nomination is mostly theorymon and there isn't really any substance to back it up aside the calculations. Primal Kyogre is something that constantly gets nominated and I constantly feel it isn't really worthy of an A+ Rank, though I do agree it is one of the strongest breakers the metagame has at the moment, however as a breaker, it has some teambuilding constraints and isn't very flexible in team options and can lead to situations of 'forced team partners' earlyish in the teambuilder, Primal Kyogre teams only tend to work when it is the focus of the team.

One of the major downsides of Primal Kyogre is that it struggles considerably against offense which just dances on it due to its lack of recovery and bulk meaning it can't stomach any heavy hit well. In most Matchups against offense, Primal Kyogre is getting a trade off at best ,making it quite unreliable in such an offensive metagame, the less reactive a team is, the easier it deals with Primal Kyogre. An attribute Lunala has over Primal Kyogre as a wallbreaker, currently is its ability to take hits from offense and Shadow Shield helps it out considerably.

 

[Nuka Cola]

In my opinion, Mega Gengar and Marshadow should be promoted to S rank as all teams have to prepare for them.
Gengar can trap, Hex, and KO most Pokemon and even if it does not get a KO it can still cripple.
I think Mega Gengar provides offensive utility to the team by way of its Shadow Tag and vast movepool.
Marshadow can basically stop all setup from the enemy team, deals heavy damage to Yveltal with Rock Tomb(252 atk marshy is able to 2HKO physically defensive Yveltal after leftovers) and is able to steal stats from any non normal setup mon.
I see Marshadow everywhere now.
Plus with perfect type coverage and an assortment of coverage, Marshadow is quite a threatening physical attacker.
Gengar can also 2HKO Yveltal(Bold) in after leftovers(Thunderbolt) and can OHKO Ultra Necrozma and 2HKO Necrozma DM with Shadow Ball
Not to mention the Destiny Bond set.

 

[pooyou123456789q]

to C+
Darkceus is hot shit now, which makes Ghostceus a wasted team slot. Offensive Zygarde-C with sub is also good, which forces you to Z to kill. However, that means you can't Z vs Yveltal/Supportceus/P-Don sosomething else will wreck you. As a result, it should move down. Wouldn't be opposed to this moving to C, it's pretty bad rn.

to B-
Tspikes offence is nice, which Naganadel abuses thanks to absorbing the hazard and nuking Zygarde.

 

[Guard]

Kyogre C >>> C- or UR
Disagree

No. Stall may be nonexistent (curse you Goth!) but Specs Kyogre has the niche of breaking through Ferrothorn, something its Primal version cannot do. As long as Pdon is chipped enough or taken care of, SpecsOgre is incredibly difficult to switch into, with only Pdon and Ferrothorn being reliable answers. Moreover, it's Scarf set has a lot better matchup against HO than Pogre and still manages to provide a blanket check to stuff like Necro. Don't underestimate it!

Kyogre Primal A >>> A+
Disagree

A is perfecty fine for Pogre. Sure, its probably the deadliest breaker ever, with EQ sets even being able to break Pdon, but it struggles so much againt Offense and that's what's limiting it. Also, it doesn't have as much utility as mons like Xern and Yveltal so to me A+ seems a little unfitting.

Arceus Fairy A- >>> B+
Agree

This thing takes up the Arceus-spot while being set-up bait for either Necro or Pdon, so is largely outclassed by other Arceus-formes. Support Groundceus and Darkceus both 1v1 Pdon and Dusk-Mane with nothing else than their signature move and the former 1v1's Marshadow (and Yveltal with Ice Beam) while the latter 1v1's Yveltal, the main Pokemon Arc-Fairy is used to cover.

Also, let's not forget Arc-Fairy is incredibly weak to Mega Gengar, the best Mega in the tier by a considerable margin, and Gothitelle, while Darkceus beats both of them and Groundceus beats the former.

As if that isn't enough, Arc-Fairy doesn't support your team as much as other Arceus-formes, with Darkceus providing a much-valued status sponge and Groundceus either Stealth Rock or Defog support. Therefore, Arceus Fairy should drop because it's outclassed by other Arceus formes in terms of viability, role compression and utility.

Mega Gengar and Zygarde Complete from A+ to S
I cannot stress how much I agree!

Both of these mons are incredibly amazing and have outrageous niches in the tier that should seperate them from the A+ rank. Mgar has been ranked S- and Zygarde had been nominated to S- an uncountable number of times the previous slate, which already hints that A+ is not where they belong.

Mega Gengar is the best stallbreaker and trapper courtesy of Shadow Tag and one of the best wallbreakers and revenge killers in the tier in just one set. Because of this godly role compression, only matched by Special Defensive Pdon, Dusk Mane and ScarfXern, it is able to distinguish itself from Marshadow, which would otherwise give it serious competition.

Also, the decline of Ho-Oh and the rise of U-Necro is huge, as the former countered every single Gengar set and the latter gets revenge killed from full HP, something Marsh cannot do with Shadow Sneak, adding up to its overall viabilty.

All in all, Mgar, when played to its fullest extent, provides a scary amount of support while maintaining devastating offensive presence, and this should warrant it a place in the S-rank, along with Dusk-Mane.

Zygarde doesn't have that amount of role compression. What Zygarde does have however is the ability to threaten the entire metagame solely with Thousand Arrows. While it's Att stat may be lacking, it has amazing boosting moves in Dragon Dance and Coil. Zygarde has centralised the meta quite a bit too (e.g. HP Ice on Marsh and Pdon)

However, the main asset Zygarde has, which should warrant it an S-rank, is its deadly unpredictability. You thought you could switch in your Xerneas to it? Glare completely invalidates both GeoXern and Scarf! You thought you could phaze that monster that keeps stacking boost? Dragon Tail phazes you first! You thought you could poison or burn it? Rest in your face! You thought you could revenge kill it? E-speed kills you! And let's not even talk about calcs, because you know it survives everything.

The ability to soft-check every single Attacker with its offensive set is huge for offensive builds and defensive sets are unbreakable with Dragon Tail if your Fairy is gone, while countering every single Pdon, except for special variants, and Dusk Mane, if it has transformed to 100%.

By the way, transforming isn't difficult to do. For offensive sets just Sub to 50% HP and for defensive sets, scout your opponent's Pokemon and send it in to stomach hits like ScarfXern's Focus Blast or Support Groudon's Precipice Blades.

Imo both Zygarde and Gengar have caught up to the viability of Dusk Mane while seperating themselves from the A+ mons by a very large margin, hence they should be ranked S.

 

[Nayrz]

sup. Time for the July update! Usual business this time around but we mainly looked into cleaning up the lower (B + C) ranks for better accuracy. Here's our sheet (note: in cases where abstain was a common vote i did not go forward with the nom) and here's the results in an update list:

Update List:

Arceus-Normal: B+ >> A- (bottom of A-)
Gothorita: Unranked >> A- (below Gothitelle)
Mega Mewtwo Y: B >> B+ (above Lugia)
Rayquaza: A- >> B+ (above Mega Scizor)
Cloyster: B >> B+ (above Mega Sableye)
Skarmory: B- >> B (above Tyranitar)
Mega Lucario: B+ >> B (below Blissey)
Smeargle: B- >> B (top of B)
Naganadel: C+ >> B- (below Ditto)
Arceus-Dragon: B- >> C+ (above Arceus-Grass)
Mega Slowbro: C >> C+ (below Dugtrio)
Arceus-Ghost: B- >> C+ (above Dialga)
Arceus-Poison: C >> C- (top of C-)
Mega Metagross: C- >> D (rip)

Our next targets in the August update will likely be taking the Ubers Open metagame progression into consideration and looking at adjusting C+ because it is rather stacked at the moment.

 

[orch]

Palkia to B
It is a strong pogre check that doesn't care about the switching order and speed of pogre unlike pdon. The 100 speed base lets it to take down the crucial 99's as revenge killers. You can use Palkia as switch in on fire moves from pdon and 2hko. Palkia is excellent against the two most popular supp arceus: water and ground. Heal block set is always an option if you want to ensure your victories over stall teams. The rise of defog is beneficial for Palkia as that it means less spikes to chip Palkia and its strong hole punching moves become more valued. The strong water move to keep ho-oh in its bay is appreciated to prevent endless ho-oh pivots. I've also experimented with bulk up liquidation Palkia and it does some work. In short, Palkia is in a good place in this meta and should be raised.
e: ive seen more palkias than mega lucarios and it's more useful than mega lucario thats for sure.

 

[bloblo]

A- to B+

Arceus-Fairy reminds me of the fact that many balance teams persist in same erroneous mindset, thinking it is "a glue mon" which can provide various utility options in both offensive and defensive sides. Arceus-Fairy is indeed a Pokemon that is capable of blanket checking many things, but some players fail to account for the downsides it leaves its own team to deal with.

The first tragic flaw of Arceus-Fairy I would like to point out is its strapped moveslot. Support variants of Arceus-Fairy prefers taking advantage of its offensive typing to be a Stealth Rock setter that can force out Mega Sableye and therefore struggles fitting both Toxic and Will-O-Wisp. I witness more balance teams employing both Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM in their team and this means that Arceus-Fairy will inevitably be taken advantage by either of them due to lacking Toxic against the former or lacking Will-O-Wisp against the latter. Many people, including myself, have attempted to experiment on dual status Arceus-Fairy to maximize the number of Pokemon it can punish, but this means that Arceus-Fairy will forgo Stealth Rock and will no longer be able to compress the roles it previously did. Even with this dedicated and niche adjustment of moveset, Arceus-fairy continues to struggle against any team with Ho-Oh and Toxapex.

The second flaw of Arceus-Fairy is other Pokemon fulfilling similar roles while providing other utilities. Other Arceus formes like Arceus-Dark and Arceus-Water rose as viable Stealth Rock users that can threaten common Defog users. Whereas Arceus-Water prevents every Defog users apart from Giratina-A from staying in, Arceus-Dark stands as a Stealth Rock setter that discourages Lunala lead, avoids Shadow Tag trapping, and checks other threatening foes like Yveltal and Ultra Necrozma. Arceus-Fairy too threatens Defog users like both Giratina formes, but it fails to keep Stealth Rock from staying on the field with its inability to threaten Defog Ho-Oh and Skarmory - choosing to run Fire Blast over Toxic to deal with Skarmory leads Arceus-Fairy to being completely useless against Ho-Oh. As a Stealth Rock user, Arceus-Fairy also has unfavorable matchup against other relevant Stealth Rock setters like Primal Groudon, Necrozma-DM, or even Excadrill, which it cannot take out swiftly. Calm Mind sets fails to threaten balance teams as Arceus-Fairy will never be able to justify both Earth Power and Fire Blast in its moveset, and specially defensive Necrozma-DM easily walls this set regardless, leaving Arceus-Ground, Arceus-Flying, and Arceus-Dark as far better Calm Mind users than Arceus-Fairy in most instances.

The third flaw of Arceus-Fairy is its inability to check foes properly. While Arceus-Fairy is one of the few Pokemon that can reliably take STAB combinations from Yveltal and Marshadow, it is often forced to use Recover to prevent it from getting picked off by Marshadow / stay healthy enough to take +2 Bullet Punch from Mega Lucario / other purposes and often ends up 'meat-shielding' hits and yielding momentum to dangerous threats like Primal Groudon and Necrozma-DM. Arceus-Fairy's effectiveness as a pivot is further diminished by its vulnerability to both Shadow Tag users and vulnerability to status moves and this leads to my final point.

As publicly known, Arceus-Fairy's efficiency is undermined by its vulnerability to Shadow Tag trapping, and this worsens players' headache with teambuilding when they are already concerned about Gothitelle's presence when deciding to use an Arceus forme in the first place. To specify, every relevant cleric apart from Magearna are vulnerable to Mega Gengar, and pairing Magearna with Arceus-Fairy to alleviate it of status moves (which it will be inflicted with while combating Defog users, Yveltal, and other threats) will make the team more vulnerable to aforementioned common threats. This means that Arceus-Fairy's vulnerability to Shadow Tag not only hampers its usefulness in certain matchups but it also worsens the difficulty of a cleric justifying a place in the team and thus making Arceus-Fairy making easier to overload in general.

With this many drawbacks and opportunity costs coming from this Arceus forme, I refuse to believe that A- is an appropriate place for Arceus-Fairy when its efficiency with defensively checking foes and providing utility options are progressively declining. The benefit from using Arceus-Fairy is nowhere close to other Pokemon dwelling in A- like Magearna, Arceus-Dark, Toxapex, and Ferrothorn. I therefore believe the most accurate representation of Arceus-Fairy's viability in the current metagame state is somewhere lower than A- rank. B+ is what I propose for now.

What about playing Earth power instead of giving yourself a headache about which status move you should pick ? (it's the same deal with Arceus water btw, you can go for the ground-beam which has great coverage too) It deals at the same time with Primal Groudon, Necrozma DM, Toxapex, and Gengar-M (and also Metagross-M).
For the Duel against Necrozma-DM, which is the guy who resists best thatyou can 3HKO him if he's offensive and you're defensive, and he can't OHKO or outspeed you unless he does for rock-polish then burns its Z-move (or unfortunately happens to be a Weakness policy user :/ and in that case everything went wrong) which makes him lose 2/3 of his health for setting up on you, seems like a good deal, right ?
as for the defensive version, it just counters you, but is itself countered by steel types so you should have no problem finding a switch-in in your team.

 

[bloblo]

Pheromosa from D to C-

I get that it's very frail for this tier, and even easily dies to priority moves alone, and does not hit hard enough like Deoxys-atk in order to be a good duelist/cleaner/wall breaker. Besides, its typing struggles against fairy and flying and poison and ghost types, which are all common in the tier.
BUT, here are what make it better than the other bug types of the tier, which makes me believe that it deserves to be ranked above them :
- it isn't weak to rocks (unlike Arceus-Bug), which lets him pivot with U-turn pretty freely
- it has coverage to hit them fairy types and flying types which resist both his STABs (arceus bug covers flying and poison types, genesect covers flying and fairy)
- rapid spin (superior to arceus' Defog unless there's a ghost type)
- it boosts upon kill, which gives it some cleaning potential
- it outspeeds Deoxys, Mewtwo, Ultra-Necrozma, Shaymin-sky, withtout a scarf and OHKOs them
- using adamant scarf it revenge kills key fast boosted threats such as Dragon dance Salamence-M with ice beam, Rock polish Groudon-P with low kick, and geoXern with poison Jab !

this last point is in my opinion not to be looked down on, given that those 3 outspeed all common scarfs that are under 100 base jolly (like Genesect). While you could argue that other scarfs do the same job, like Shaymin-sky, Marshadow, or Ditto ; Shaymin- struggles against Xerneas' Spedef, Marshadow does not hit as hard, and Ditto is in my opinion inferior out of the context of revenge killing sweepers. I don't say that Pheromosa is better than those in any way, just that it deserves some credit because having a scarf that revenge kills things that others don't and has a STAB U-Turn is something good. Also, that u-turn pairs well with Dugtrio, who can trap kill Groudon Primal, Toxapex, and Magearna.

here's a replay that I've taken pretty early in my testing of that pokemon, with a team I built in 10mins just in order to give this pokemon some credit when I realised it was underrated (imo). I am new to this thread btw. But not to the Ubers tier.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-783387839

Turn 1 : a scarf with u-turn that's even faster than deoxys-Speed ! that allows me to swich directly into my spinner without getting my focus sash broke by the hazards.

Turn 5 : revenge killing Groudon-P after rock polish (ditto has a 15% chance to miss with Precipice Blades)
252+ Atk Pheromosa Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 168 HP / 0 Def Groudon-Primal: 150-177 (39.1 - 46.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Turn 16 : revenge-killing Xerneas after Geomancy
252+ Atk Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 208-246 (50.6 - 59.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Pheromosa Poison Jab vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 176-208 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 22.3% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Adaptability Lucario-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 168-200 (42.7 - 50.8%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 0 HP / 168 Def Xerneas: 195-231 (49.6 - 58.7%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psystrike vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Xerneas: 232-274 (56.4 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(those last 2 lines prove that in this game the Xerneas was indeed going with some Def EVs to take only 53% from my Mewtwo, and that I got a low roll on the poison jab, which was compensated by the poisoning)

 

[bloblo]

Arceus-Ice from D to C-

Another underrated toy of mine, which I will now defend against the other Arceus forms that are in the D ranking, which are Fighting, Bug, Fire, and Psychic.
- The fighting type alone is bad because it doesn't perform well offensively in the tier and has bad offensive potential and obviously bad resistances. The Ghost and Steel/Poison coverage are cool, but there are too many situations where a duel of STAB moves is unfavorable.
- The Bug type is offensively well covered by Arceus' movepool, but being weak to Stealth Rocks and not having U-turn nor Quiver Dance is bad enough coupled with the horrible typing that is simple Bug. There are better options in he tier, such as Genesect and the upper cited Pheromosa.
- Psychic : mewtwo and deoxys and Necrozma are all better options. The only point of this pokemon is if you wanna go mono-psychic, which you could try for fun ^^
- Fire : there are already a lot of very strong fire type options in the tier, that are either not weak to stealth rocks, or have a very strong ability (or both). And they all can keep Kyogre in check (even reshiram), while arceus can't even with a +1 Thunder.
- Ice : there is no competition for a STAB ice user, but this is probably the tier where there are the most weaknesses to that type (compared to OU, this is the case in both absolute and relative ways of counting). And you know Arceus' movepool makes it easy to cover the types that resist, making it one of the strongest ice types in the game (because what they need is offensive power, not defensive). Fire blast covers every steel type in the tier, and thunder makes you win against Kyogre if you got a calm mind first. Fire types actually don't resist your Judgment except Blaziken, and other ice types simply are no problem either. THIS POKEMON CHECKS NEAR HALF OF UBERS, and can do some great job with a calm mind, there are a very few pokemon that do not get 2HKO by it, and since so many are weak to ice in the tier you'll sure find opportunities to be useful. I found this out when I wanted a pokemon to deal with both ground types and flying types for my sticky web, and I think there was no better option than him in there (sticky web being itself a very good environment for him because his main weakness is the defensive typing, which you don't have to worry about when you have initiative and momentum)

here's a replay to simply illustrate this :
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ubers-726131522

252 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Yveltal: 378-446 (96.1 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Groudon-Primal: 144-169 (35.7 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 SpA Icicle Plate Arceus-Ice Judgment vs. 168 HP / 36 SpD Groudon-Primal: 195-229 (50.9 - 59.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Arceus-Ice Thunder vs. 32 HP / 0 SpD Kyogre-Primal: 150-178 (42.9 - 51%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[shrang]

Couple of suggestions:

Bugceus from D to C- or C
You know how people struggle to find a check to both Marshadow and Zygarde (I know Buzzwole exists but Zyg can sort of beat that with the right set)? Better yet, a check that doesn't get trapped by Goth? Well, Bugceus can do ALL THREE of these things AND Defog at the same time. Something like Judge/Ice Beam/Defog|Toxic/Recover can do all of that. Sure I'm not downplaying the fact that you're using Bugceus and you now have a huge Ho-oh/PDon/Dusk Mane bait, but hey - it's a niche that pretty much nothing else can fulfill right now.

Groudon (base) from D to C-
I've brought this up before in SM but I forgot if it had a proper discussion because it was pretty much end of SM and a new thread started pretty soon but whatever. I feel base Groudon has a niche in the way that if you actually go out of your way to build a specific team for it, it can actually work, unlike a lot of the shit in D, which makes me want this to be a bit higher IMO. Of course, using base Groudon has the very huge opportunity cost in not being able to run Primal Groudon, but it has a few perks of its own and has its own team that it could use. For one, it's probably the only Ground type in the tier that doesn't have to auto-trade with support Groundceus whereas pretty much every other Ground (outside of Groundceus itself) dies to Judge/Ice Beam, meaning you can retain momentum without having to either die or switch out. Z moves has also given base Groudon a very good lease on its ability to sweep. Something like RP/SD/P Blades/Dragon Claw with Dragonium-Z or Groundium-Z lets it beat lots of its original checks (Dragonium Z probably has the widest distribution to kill its checks - +2 Dragonium Z easily OHKOs Zygarde/Gira-A/Gira-O/Mega Mence/Ho-oh with no issues whatsoever; Groundium-Z lets you muscle past Arceus formes more easily).
This is not to mention the whole Drought vs Desolate Land business. Of course, Desolate Land is what makes PDon so great, but Drought opens up a couple of options for aggressive sun teams and what not. Again, it's hard to build these because you need really solid POgre checks and you're giving up PDon's splashable check-all, but I'm pretty sure you can make this work if you really wanted to.
All in all, I feel while base Groudon is definitely much less viable than its Primal variant, it still has a couple of perks and if you put it the effort, you can really make a niche for it which differentiates from the other D rank mons which are really out of niches.