CAP 25 - Part 7 - Competitive Ability Discussion

[Yoshiblaze]

1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

While I do like the idea of Sheer Force, Mold Breaker, and, to a lesser extent, Technician, I really have to throw in support for Simple. While not having many setup moves in either type, due to being a starter, 25f is forced to learn a certain setup move that gives the potential for a really cool kind of mixed sweeper. Fire/Ground have their most powerful and common moves in different type categories, so Simple would allow 25f to effectively utilize the strengths of both typings. The only concern I have is that Simple may allow 25f to threaten some of it's checks too easily.

 

[Dece1t]

1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

Super Luck, while appealing to say the least, seems a little bit too gimmicky for my liking. It does break through defensive boosts and it ignores the downsides of moves that lower stats (Overheat being the first thing I can think of). We shouldn't be forced to run Scope Lens in order to make this ability viable, we should have a better opportunity to vary our item pool a little more without the expense of our ability being viable. This case is similar with Sniper. Don't get me wrong, it's a clever idea, but I think it just limits us a little bit too much. Merciless, also interesting, is just far too niche, and it relies too heavily on Toxic (which isn't very good for an Offensive mon unless it is to catch Pokemon on the switch before switching out) and Toxic Spikes (which I'm not crazy about having to partner with Toxapex or Greninja for it to work). Sheer Force, to me, feels like too much of a gimmie, and we're not really going to explore much of anything if we choose that. I thought strongly about Stakeout, but my fear is we'd be really similar in concept to Volkraken, another offensive Fire type we'd be competing with for a team slot.

So, as of right now, I am really scratching my head on the abilities presented so far for this mon. Surprisingly I'm liking Super Luck the best out of the fact that it is not very well explored outside of gimmicky Kingdra sets, but I think we can do better.

As a side note I'm pretty opposed to Simple. I think the doubled stat boosts we'd get from it would make our Fire mon excessively strong against would-be walls and checks as opposed to maybe Pelipper. It already have amazing coverage across the board with its STABs, I don't see the need for more.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

I'm gonna hop on the Corrosion train. I alluded to it a while back (I asked to make sure at the time I wasn't poll-jumping lol), but it seriously amps up our defensive utility. The ability to not only hit Steel and Poison types, but Magic Guard users like Clefable or Poison Heal users like Gliscor as Dogfish mentioned is unbelievably threatening (he just beat me to the punch lol). This'll make 25w such a nastier defensive threat, and it'll give us solid niches against the two mons mentioned above, Ferrothorn, Celesteela, and Toxapex. While it wouldn't directly smash any of it's checks, it gives CAPw a small opportunity to pressure back. Corrosion is very under-explored, given it's only on arguably one of the least defensive options in the game, Salazzle, so this would be a great opportunity to to give it a purpose on a real defensive-oriented mon. Stamina is another ability I also wouldn't mind backing as well.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

This is probably the toughest one, given that we're trying to specialize it and not make it too similar to Jumbao when it comes to threatening Tomohawk. So far, I kinda like the idea of Berserk. This is another ability largely unexplored aside from the occasional use on Drampa. Given that 25g only has a few weaknesses in Bug, Fire, Ice and Poison, and it has resistances to Electric, Grass, Steel, and Water. Everything else it is neutral to, which with a decent amount of bulk can come in to our favor with this ability. Galvanize could also be good, but I feel like that's a bit generic given we're aiming for a specialized role. Emergency Exit, while silly sounding at first, could be really awesome for momentum-based role, making for easy switches for couter-play. However, if we're not careful, this could work against us by forcing a switch when it's inconvenient. Given that, I'm a little hesitant on that one. Reckless is also appealing given we could abuse Wood Hammer and Wild Charge, but my biggest concern is it'll lessen 25g's longevity to stay alive in battle.

Instead, I would like to propose an ability could give us not only a much more serious niche, but it can potentially punish usual switch-ins. Tinted Lens would allow any of its attacks that are resisted to be doubled, allowing them to turn into a neutral hit. This would be able to abolish our susceptibility to Necturna so that we're not complete set-up bait, and we'd at the very least be able to do a sizable amount of chip damage against Jumbao, Mega Lati@s, Ferrothorn, and Pyroak before needing to switch out. This would also increase the effectiveness of our Grass STAB as a whole, being able to hit a bunch of switch-ins or threats decently hard. This would give us a much more specialized niche, and we'd be able to stand a little more toe-to-toe in competition with Jumbao for the offensive Grass slot.

 

[Pipotchi]

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

I think the absolute unrivalled best ability for 25w is Poison Heal. Lets look back at mons we would theoretically expect 25w to check or counter:

-

Any Landorus (problem moves: Fly/Z-Fly, Stone Edge/Z-Stone Edge, Explosion?)

Standard Syclant (problem moves: Tail Glow)

Any Zygarde (problem moves: Outrage/Z-Outrage, Toxic)

Any Colossoil (problem moves: Knock Off/Facade)

Any Gliscor (problem moves: Knock Off/Facade)

Standard Mega Swampert (problem moves: none)

Standard Gastrodon (problem moves: Toxic)

Any Fidgit (problem moves: none?)

Standard Revenankh (problem moves: Toxic, Will-o-Wisp)

Any Keldeo (problem moves: Scald)

Standard Arghonaut (problem moves: Toxic, Knock Off)

Dragon Dance Naviathan (problem moves: Taunt, Wild Charge, Facade)

Lead Excadrill (problem moves: Rock Slide, Toxic)

Setup Mega Scizor (problem moves: Toxic)

Jirachi (problem moves: none)

Greninja/Ash Gren (problem moves: Rock Slide, boosted Dark Pulse)

Standard Mega Gyarados (problem moves: depends on our defenses, but Z-Fly from regular)

Every Pyroak (Lava Plume, Toxic)

Tangrowth (Toxic, Knock Off)

Bolded are all of the problem move that Poison Heal helps- and thanks to the extra recovery providing us extra tankiness and mitigation of our stealth rock damage it will improve many of the neutral attacks also (in italics are the moves that might still be an issue afterwards). Its synergy with protection-based moves could potentially give us a buffer against any of the above Z-moves that attempts to surprise us, as well as fully blocking Landorus-T and Gyarados from ohkoing us with their 2-turn flying attacks after their Z-move is gone.
Because its key strength is its ground resistance, it desperately needs countermeasure for a nasty Stealth Rock weakness and Toxic, the two most common things you would expect to come alongside Ground attacks. Poison Heal helps with both of these issues, and just looking at how this ability turns almost every single mon on this list into a favourable or playable matchup shows its key to granting 25w a niche beyond other choices like Corrosion etc, which are imo a novelty path that might leave us with a mon that doesnt really deserve the teamslot for all its weaknesses.

Poison Heal also has a lot of moves that synergize well with it- protection moves, recoil moves, two-turn invuln moves, or perform combinations such as those used by Poison Heal Breloom back in the day (god this non-move mentioning is hard). It synergizes well with moves that cost HP, whether they be stalling or boosting tactics, and any defensive boosting is hugely bolstered by a toxic immunity and the healing is in turn made more effective by increased defenses. Any regular healing moves are improved by the ability to heal higher than 50% a turn, stalling out even powerful attacks.
There are also moves that can synergize with free activation of toxic orb (for instance stopping the opponent from hitting you, as well as moves that use your poison condition to boost your offensive potential or share the status with the opponent. There's a lot to work with creatively, and a huge boost to our defensive consistency even before moves are considered!

Ill make a post on the others later, but I wanted to show Poison Heal support early cus thats the one Im mostly convinced on already.

 

[Warren685]

I also agree that Mold Breaker for 25f seems a bit limited since there's only a few pokemon would really get threaten by it, namely Mega Latios, Heatran, Stratagem (Somewhat), Rotom-W (kinda relevant). You're also betting on the fact that the opponent might have one of the named pokemon too, if they don't you're better off running Blaze for that pinch boost then.

 

[JBL Jason]

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?
My favorite options for 25g are mostly unexplored abilities that can be fun to work around while giving a viable niche to this mon. Therefore, I feel Triage and Emergency Exit are the best abilities for 25g. Triage works well with the Grass/Electric typing, since both types have a STAB draining move at their disposal. Grass types and Electric types do not have a mon that effectively uses priority, so that can be an effective niche for 25g to fill. Emergency Exit is more of a hindrance to its sole user, Golisipod, so having a fast user of this ability can make for an interesting grass type pivot.

 

[reachzero]

I'm a fan of Mold Breaker for 25f, because not only would it let Ground moves hit Levitate Pokemon, but it would be good for setting hazards (immune to Magic Bounce) and hitting Heatran with Fire attacks. It isn't overwhelmingly powerful, which is one feature I like about it. Technician is also an excellent possibility, since the Ground movepool in particularl offers some really strong options.

The strongest argument for Poison Heal on 25w is the switch-in list from the previous stage--so many of the Pokemon 25w is supposed to come in on use status, and Poison Heal would be great for preventing negative status for a boosting Pokemon--a definite way to give 25w the bite to distinguish it from other defensive Waters.

Galvanize is super cool for this concept. It's unprecedented, which is exactly what we want from 25g. It'd be equally great either physically or specially, which is hardly ever true and especially fun for the process. It would give 25g really powerful options while allowing us to use the large counter list as a balancing factor.

 

[Warren685]

Another think I forgot to mention about No Guard for 25g is that beside it can interacts with many low accuracy moves, it can also include permanent status-inflicting moves. No Guard would also help against our pressure list from the Threats discussion.
Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?
Well usually stall mons are hampered by status moves that hinder their ability to out live the opponent so we should consider Wonder Skin as a viable ability as it makes all status moves a coinflip and would certainly makes it easier to win stall wars.

 

[koista12]

CAP 25f: I feel like this one has the most ability options available due to it's generically good offensive typing, which presents less of a set direction for how we want to break through our targets. My favorite 2 abilities are Technician and Merciless - the former offers great ways to synchronize ability and movepool, while the latter can threaten both balance and stall depending whether we go physical or special. Not trying to poll jump here, but going special can really take advantage of the fact that crits ignore stat drops, while going physical means we become a nightmare for stall to switch in to sans bulky ground types like quagsire and hippo. Other cool abilities are Mold Breaker and Simple, although I feel that the latter would really consign us to a narrow stat range due to the raw power potential.

CAP 25w: This is the hardest to sync up ability and movepool imo. Wonder Skin sounds cool as shit, but it offers few avenues to pair with movepool and as such I'm not a fan. Stamina runs in the same vein. Regenerator sounds generically good to me, and can really only pair with pivoting moves. I like corrosion because while it's move pairing potential is slightly limited, it offers unparalleled utility for a defensive Pokemon in wearing down the opponent. Lastly, my favorite choice is Poison Heal. I know I've been expounding on synergy with moves, but the list composed by Pipotchi shows how much this ability helps us check the things were supposed to, and I think that an ability to avoid status while also gaining recovery that alleviates the rocks weakness is the best way to CAP 25w succeed as a defensive Mon.

CAP 25g: I love Triage here. Its extremely specialized and is a completely unexplored aspect of the meta. What really gets me is that it doesn't necessitate that we have high offensive stats - the unique niche in itself can warrant usage of this mon. I fail to see the usefulness of Galvanize - it offers move synergy yes, and the ability itself is unused, but I personally feel this ability is more useful in a purely offensive role and offers few opportunities to specialize.

 

[Sereg]

1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

I agree that Super Luck is my fave for this. Not too common or generically good, but has move-ability interaction and works well for an offensive mon with a great attacking typing. Sniper works well for the same reason, but in this case, I believe reliability is more important than power. While I love the idea of Merciless, I think fire moves’ burn chance result in poor synergy here. Technician does work well for the kind of utility attacks that Fire/Ground types would have, though is a little more broad than would be ideal for me. Sheer Force works perfectly for an offensive fire type, but as said, is a little generic. We could go the other way with Serene Grace, but while that may be more interesting, it doesn’t fit the role as perfectly. Simple also works really well for an offensive Fire type, but again, not as perfectly. Contrary would also benefit an offensive Fire type, but the ground side benefits less. Compound Eyes/No Guard is another helpful ability for a Fire type, but maybe more for a more tanky one than I suspect we’re going for. Burns are better for withstanding counterattacks, of couse. Download would be better for a Psychic, or better yet, a Dark type. Reckless/Rock Head/Magic Guard, Skill Link and Iron Fist are other abilities that could work, but less well IMO.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

Aroma Veil/Oblivious/Prankster work well for Status users as bulky mon tend to be. Corrosion would be perfect, especially with the STAB trapping moves we could get (I hope that’s not polljumping), though I’ have preferred a Ghost for that. Intimidate/Magic Guard/Regenerator/ work well for a bulky pivot, and Bug makes pivoting hit harder, but the hazard weakness sucks for that role. The latter two abilities make that less of an issue, but the last is a bit generic. Battle Armor/Shell Armor can work well for tanky moves, and Multiscale can similarly help, though Stealth Rock weakness makes that slightly less attractive. Stamina works similarly, and it’d be great to have a good user of that. I do like the idea of Gluttony, but I think Cheek Pouch is even better. It’s basically unexplored and allows some diversity in tanky strategies. Especially for a wall with multiple weaknesses. Serene Grace, Simple and Contrary are all technically capable of being used defensively as well, and it might be nice to see that. Triage also works well for a defensive mon of this typing.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

As cool as the Emergency Exit idea sounds, I don’t think it’s ideal for this concept. As said, Triage is amazing for our typing and lets us move some points from our BST away from speed, which will make things easier for us. Prankster also gives us helpful priority and along with Oblivious/Aroma Veil, helps us use our typing’s useful status moves (admittedly, they don’t benefit from STAB, but still). Compound Eyes/No Guard, Serene Grace and Technician could all help with the interesting move diversity our typing has as well. Another niche could be using Skill Link to get through subs, sturdy (many sturdy mon are vulnerable to Grass), Multiscale and Focus Sash. Or, we could use our Electric side to paralyse and our Grass side to combine a multi-hit move with Stench to paraflinch to death.

 

[Ahhhhhh......Clefable.]

As far as CAP25g goes, I like Triage over Prankster or Galvanize for a few reasons. First, it’s ENTIRELY unexplored. We have zero examples of Grass-type or Electric-type STAB priority moves. And, to boot, Triage has a ton of options for non-damaging moves that could be included as well. We’ve explored a Grass-type with Prankster, and while Whimsicott doesn’t excel, it HAS been done. Triage, in this fashion, has not. It’s brand new.

I feel as though Galvanize is too vague for CAP25g, since we want something specialized. We have good, solid STAB options already for Electric-types, and I’d rather give CAP25g more flexibility with priority, which Triage allows.

 

[hawk1113]

1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

The first part of this has been answered; there are plenty of offensive abilities that have both obvious and non-obvious interactions. The obvious ones (Tough Claws, Adaptability, Analytic, Stakeout, Sheer Force) seem fairly bad in my mind, both because they're, well, obvious and because this bad boy doesn't need more raw power - in fact, giving it sheer raw power is extremely dangerous. I am also strongly, strongly opposed to Mold Breaker - this thing has precious few checks and counters, and the idea of improving our game against Latios, Latias, Rotom-W, CM Naviathan, Mega Venusaur, and Heatran (some of which are on our list as intended checks to 25f's power) is hard to countenance. 25f is the place to get weird and experimental in my opinion, as even if we miss I'm sure Blaze 25f will be somewhat viable on typing alone.

I'm most partial to Technician, Sniper, and Super Luck - they are unexplored on ground types and in competitive battling in general, and both contribute to an offensive wall-breaking wall (Sniper and Super Luck because they let us ignore defensive boosts, Technician because it synergizes with some common low-power boosting moves to allow us to power up while still getting some chip damage in). I don't mind the idea of Simple either, but have concerns that even mediocre boosting moves are going to make us KO too much of the meta if we get a free turn or two - and we will, with this typing. Serene Grace isn't too bad as a "plan B". While very few ground moves interact with it, almost every fire move on both sides of the spectrum would. Serene Grace enables a "boost while attacking" plan as well, but also may enable us to make a tankier 25f and exploit the ability to cut enemy abilities and burn them up.

Semi-seriously, if ya'll REALLY want to test Emergency Exit this is the place to do it. There's a little less synergy here as there are no recovery moves in Fire and Ground, but that doesn't rule out our ability to give 25f recovery anyways. The idea proposed for Grass using this was that we could have a fast 'mon that uses Emergency Exit to set up battlefield control, crippling status, or entry hazards and then get a "free switch", and that's absolutely something 25f could do too. It also makes us a better partner with Jumbao, a pokemon we'll likely be friends with anyways - we can be a "fast pivot" into Jumbao, and Jumbao can pass us wishes to let us do it again if we want too. It also provides a possibly necessarily limiting factor on our otherwise extremely deadly offensive Pokemon. And, if the thing that got you all fired up about Emergency Exit was its ability to block U-turn, why not put it on a 'mon that actually resists U-turn?

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

I am all aboard the Poison Heal hype train. Being a bulky water that can absorb and ignore opposing status moves gives us an automatic niche in an extremely crowded field and dramatically improves several of our key matchups. The interaction between Poison Heal and typical defensive skills that evade enemy attacks for a turn is excellent, and it also makes us well suited to utilizing trapping moves present in both Water and Bug.

I'd like to build off of Sereg's post and also give some strong support to Triage. One niche 25w COULD have over some current bulky waters is an ability to clobber opposing psychic and dark types. However, with a BST stat total we're going to have a tough time getting the bulk to tank neutral hits AND the speed to beat threats like Latios, Latias, Mew, Aurutmoth, and Greninja up before they kill us with their sheer power. Enter Triage. We've already seen how powerful priority Recovery is on a defensive 'mon with Tomohawk, but bug also has the ability to have priority aggressive healing to beat down enemies while recovering. I know Triage leaves a bad taste since it was snuck onto Revenankh and now it feels like we're retreading, but making a defensive trapping 'mon instead of a bulky attacker would make us different from Revenankh in a way that we might struggle more with with 25g.


3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

I am ride-or-die for Galvanize. I've seen a few comments to the effect that Galvanize is mindlessly offensive and not "specialized" enough, and I simply must disagree.

- "Specialist" doesn't mean we aren't an attacker; it means we attack on an entirely different axis compared to other grass types. Since most grass types in the meta favor bulky offense and weather abuse, that necessitates us focusing on a more purely aggressive role. Kartana is the only pure attacking grass type, and it's much easier to differntiate ourselves from one mon instead of all of them.
- Galvanize DOES enable some specialized performance - we are capable of having this 'mon use powerful Electric-typed priority to threaten common checks to other grass types (such as Tomohawk, Greninja, and other waters), we are capable of providing hazard removal with no risk of getting ghost-blocked, and we're capable of unleashing devastaing Sound-based moves against common sub abusers. More generally, electric in the meta tends to require being Special-biased, since Wild Charge is the highest damage physical move in the game (that's available for common consumption), and a devastating physical electric attacker would definitely shake things up.
- It may seem like the "Grass" is lost there, but the nice advantage of this dual STAB combination is that many things (especially the things on our switch-in list) that can absorb electric moves are extremely pressured by our Grass STAB.

 

[LouisCyphre]

I'd never call Triage unexplored in a metagame where Revenankh, essentially the perfect abuser of Triage, exists.

After several involved discussions on Discord, my favorites for each CAP25 are Super Luck, Poison Heal, and Galvanize, respectively.

CAP 25f's popular ability options all feel kind of samey to me.

Sheer Force: My biggest gripe with this ability is how essentially close to being a plain stat boost this is. It's already well-explored outside of CAP. This is a route we can go if we absolutely require power with no fuss, but the moves that get a boost from Sheer Force are already so common and so strong on users without the ability that I can't feel good about how this ability addresses the concept.

Simple: An intriguing option that pigeonholes us into offensive boosting moves (as anything else would be anti-concept, natch). The trouble with this ability is that it requires us to reign in our unboosted offenses. Even single-stage boosts become +2 under Simple, meaning we're forced to either design a CAP 25f that deals no damage before boosting; or accept that it will be exceptionally hard to wall afterwards. Most of CAP 25f's checks list rely on their raw bulk to weather neutral STAB hits from 25f, and this list erodes quickly if we go down the path of repeatable offensive boosting.

Serene Grace: Frankly, this leans us defensive and is thus anti-concept. If we pool all Fire- and Ground-type attacks together, toss out all of the legendary exclusives, and also scrap the moves with either 10% or 100% effect chance (which don't benefit enough or at all from Serene Grace), we're left with a whopping one move with Burn chance and one move with Accuracy-drop chance. While some of CAP 25f's checks don't appreciate Burn, and the accuracy drop gives us a chance to... make them have a chance to miss.. Lastly, running these moves as our STABs to abuse Serene Grace means we've foregone much more damaging STAB options. It's not unreasonable to say that this ability does nothing for 25f's role as an offensive Pokemon.

For CAP 25f, Super Luck has my attention for the unique advantages it lets 25f offer in teambuilding. Combining Super Luck with high-critical rate STABs and coverage, a crit-chance-boosting move, or a setup move that has a crit-chance-boosting Z-effect gives CAP 25f a unique edge against Intimidate switch-ins, screens, and enemy defensive stat-ups in a single package that's hard to replicate with other competing Fire- and Ground-type attackers, ensuring that 25f is viable whenever hyper offensive teams, Bulk-Up / Calm Mind users, and more are viable. I like Super Luck better than its cousin Sniper because more consistent critical hits means more access to the benefits of critical hits, and because the maximum damage boost is lower overall. Sniper sends 25f in a more setup-focused direction, as it's harder to reach +3 critical stages without relying on boosting moves.

***

erp I am out of time. I'll edit in my 25w ramblings later tonight.

***

CAP 25g's the one I've really made my mind up on. As above, Triage has already been done and dealt with by Revenankh, who abuses both the +3 STAB priority angle, +3 instant heal angle, and the +3 ChestoRest option. Our typing doesn't afford us the rockstar coverage Revenankh boasts, and we don't have the wide range of resists necessary for a purely defensive take on the ability. Triage CAP 25g struggles to differentiate itself with starter-level offenses, poor-to-mediocre BP on their primary STABs, and a gameplan that crumbles to the first whiff of status. Hard pass.

As for Galvanize, turning the list of Normal-type damaging attacks into Electric-type moves gives us an amazing number of possible unique niches. We can create the game's first Electric-type priority attack, approach hazard removal from a new angle, punish status with a boosted STAB, deliver %-max-HP damage in a new typing, threaten a powerful STAB self-sacrificing attack, and even just select much more powerful physical Electric STABs than the pool of originally-Electric attacks would offer us. And these options aren't exclusive--we could do some or all of these things, some of them within the same set! Galvanize allows CAP 25g to find a niche--a powerful, competitive one--that no other Pokemon can replicate, ensuring we deliver on our promise of "unique role" from concept assessment.

 

[snake]

As far as CAP25g goes, I like Triage over Prankster or Galvanize for a few reasons. First, it’s ENTIRELY unexplored. We have zero examples of Grass-type or Electric-type STAB priority moves. And, to boot, Triage has a ton of options for non-damaging moves that could be included as well. We’ve explored a Grass-type with Prankster, and while Whimsicott doesn’t excel, it HAS been done. Triage, in this fashion, has not. It’s brand new.

I feel as though Galvanize is too vague for CAP25g, since we want something specialized. We have good, solid STAB options already for Electric-types, and I’d rather give CAP25g more flexibility with priority, which Triage allows.

Posting as a user and not as Ability TLT, I find your Triage arguments to be flawed. First, it is not unexplored - we're building for the CAP Metagame, which already has a Triage user: Revenankh. It already abuses Drain Punch and Moonlight with Triage. If you mean it's unexplored outside of Grass-types, then Galvanize is equally unexplored. Galvanize can also provide Electric-type priority options using Normal-type priority moves. While the Grass-type priority might be unique to Triage, Electric is by far a better offensive typing than Grass. Personally, I find Galvanize to provide a ton of flexibility for later stages.

 

[LucarioOfLegends]

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

While it is not my premier choice, Galvanize is a really interesting option for CAPg that I do like more than most. Considering the massive amount of moves we have at our disposal thanks to interacting with Normal type moves, it still gives us multiple different options of actually exploring parts not exactly for the Grass typing, but instead for the Electric typing. A lot of electric types tend to function the same, usually being special attacking pivots or wallbreakers. This gives CAPg to turn away from this stereotype and actually explore something new with the type. Its also an ability that is mostly unexplored, as the only user in Alolan Golem is not only unviable in CAP but tends to run Magnet Pull instead in OU. I think it is a really interesting ability that would turn out great for CAPg.

I don't know where people are coming from, but I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Triage is somehow unexplored. Probably missed updates. Anyways, aside from the fact that Revenankh is about as good as you can get with a user in my opinion, I honestly don't think this option is great. If people want Priority STAB for this CAP, there are significantly better options through Prankster and the above mentioned Galvanize. What people tend to forget is that these moves tend to be on the much weaker side of attacking prowess (even Revenankh's Drain Punch is only 75 BP) meaning that we will seriously have to beef up the attacking stats. I think this ability is also super limiting for the rest of the project, and will way less interesting.

People have mentioned that Grass-types tend to be great pivots but don't actually use Pivoting moves. I think this is something that could very much be explored, considering our decent matchup against Ground-types due to Grass STAB. And although it pains me to say, Regenerator is pretty much the cream of the crop when it comes down to it. Not only does this ability have very strong synergy with the pivoting moves, but it will let CAPg come in on way more attack before going down, since we have not as many resistances as our type would like. It also wouldn't have to run any major recovery to keep ourselves alive, which could lose momentum. I think this is a solid ability choice, even though I personally think this is the most generically good junk food ability we can get.

And on a final note, while I personally and completely biased love Emergency Exit in concept, I think it would still fail due to how many issue that could come with it. Even if we are fast, unlike Golisopod, we still have to worry about switching into incoming attacks as well as hazards, which could become a massive liability, especially if the attack is strong and faster than us. I like the ability, but I just don't see it working at all and as such won't support it.

 

[SHSP]

Wanna throw my weight behind Galvanize for grassmon. We're aiming for a niche for two different reasons: one, for the sake of achieving the "specialist" role we've developed for this, and two, so we're not overshadowed by the hordes of other grasses with arguably better typings, at least defensively. Galv, as it's been explained a ton of times here, gives us that niche. We have access to both sides of an attacking spectrum easier, as well as the possibility of priority that's been alluded to. It creates an interesting balance with grass type STAB for grounds that we often times force in. It creates options for us to work with and lets us play with later stages to achieve the goal of the concept and adjust what we are checked/countered by.
Reach's ideas for firemon are very in tune with mine. This the one of the trio I'm far and away most worried about: we've got a limited check/counter list all things considered and an ability that pushes power too much threatens a lot of that precarious balance. Mold Breaker seems a little too strong when considering it limits switchins heavily (suddenly you can't switch in stuff like the Latis and Levitaters in general, for example), but Technician stands out as letting us play around a lot with moves and coverage while also not breaking the meta open and letting next to nothing switch in.

I don't have much in the way of thoughts for watermon. Poison Heal seems like the best for viability's sake, I honestly can't think of too much else in way of concept fit that stands out as something I support or really have an opinion on.

 

[Wulfanator]

The two biggest issues CAP 25w faces as a bulky water Pokémon are status and hazards. Bulky waters are a prime target for moves like toxic. Stacking that with bug’s weakness to stealth rocks only proceeds to give CAP 25w a difficult time fulfilling its role. Abilities like Poison Heal only solve half of the problem since you’ll still be taking rocks damage. Not to mention, it requires you to run toxic orb. Magic Guard would seem like an obvious candidate since it would be an immunity to both. However, many people like to dismiss it for being “generically good.” A lesser but still very problematic thing defensive, especially utility, Pokémon face is taunt and trick + choice lock. Having your ferrothorn or clefable shutdown for several turns or even the remainder of battle is devastating. Magic Bounce resolves many of these issues and would allow for 25w to set up, recover, or provide support with minimal worry. Rocks and spikes opportunities become questionable and risk allowing 25w to come in for free. Magic Bounce is by far one of the strongest options for 25w.

 

[xurkitrium-z]

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

I'm gonna advocate strongly for Poison Heal on 25w here. It's biggest weakness is its Stealth Rocks weakness and its ability to get walled by switch-ins. This makes it liable to get forced into a cycle of "switch in, do 1 thing, switch out, take 25% hp in the process". Poison Heal mitigates that by giving 25w strong passive recovery that gives 25w much-needed longevity for the duration of the match. In addition, Poison Heal makes 25w immune to status, particularly toxic, making it a lot harder to break through.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

For 25g, I'm really into Emergency Exit. It's a really unique and potentially powerful ability that got shafted because its only user had a Stealth Rocks weakness and no recovery, much less any way to actively benefit from the free switch-out. 25g doesn't have the SR weakness, and the whole point is to give it a movepool to maximize the ability's potential. I'm all in on Emergency Exit.

 

[Mx]

I'm going to go into detail for CAP 25f abilities, I'll try talking about the other two tomorrow

Super Luck/Sniper: I really dislike these two abilities, as they require very specific moves and items to work, and I feel that can just achieve similar results with more traditional methods. With Sniper, you need Focus Energy + Scope Lens to guarantee a crit, which would give you a x2.25 modifier to all of your attacks. However if you simply use boosting moves, you can get almost the same effect (x2), while still being able to use any item and ability. Even on Kingdra, the only reason why it can use a dedicated Sniper set is a set is because it doesn't have access to any other good boosting moves, and if it did, it would drop that set in an instant

Super Luck is similar, because it allows us to abuse it without any set-up, but it forces us into very sub-optimal moves and item, when other abilities can give us much more reliable ways of powering-up our attacks.

Technician: I think this is a decent option, however, I'm not sure if there are too many good moves that this ability can coordinate with, because it limits us to moves with 60 BP at maximum, which become 90 BP after the boost. Of course, there is a way to bypass this, by using multi-hit moves, but I think that the next ability in my list is much better at abusing these. Of course there are other uses for this ability (2-hit moves in particular seems pretty interesting, even if there are only a handful of those), but most of the time, I think that it is mostly outclassed.

Skill Link: I like this ability much more, and I'd like to see more discussion on it, because it lets us abuse the best moves for Technician in a much more reliable manner. For reference, the standard 2-5 hit moves with 25 BP have an average power of 79.2 (according to Bulbapedia), accounting for Technician, this becomes 118.8 on average, while Skill Link always gives 125 BP, which makes it the more ideal ability. This can already be seen on the Cinccino NU analysis, where Skill Link is the preferred ability over Technician.

Sheer Force: This ability might be pretty straightforward, but it is still a great option in my opinion. While it might not work alongside some of our best STAB moves, I think that in coverage is where this ability truly shines, as there is a massive array of moves to pair this ability with, both physical and special. It is also important to remember how this ability also negates Life Orb recoil, which means that it can effectively gives us more power than a Choice Band/Specs without locking us into a move, and unlike Super Luck/Sniper, it can provide a solid benefit to sets that wish to run other items, such as Scarf or Z-Crystal.

 

[pythonSL]

With this post I'm gonna focus on 25f and the abilities I believe we should consider here, being Defiant/Competitive. While these abilities may not have hugely specific ability-movepool synergies, I believe that given the strength of the STABs of Fire/Ground, we don't necessarily need huge ability-movepool synergy. Defiant and Competitive raise Attack and Special Attack by two stages when any stat is lowered by an opponent and this boost in strength would allow an offensive fire type such as 25f to break through walls in a meta full of Lando-T and potential drops from moves on Pokemon such as Moonblast Clefable, which can, in theory stop 25f. While you might think one of these abilities forces 25f to run either physical or special sets, Blaze is not a bad ability if you were to want to run other types of sets. Personally, I prefer Defiant because it discourages Lando-T switch-ins which would typically stop the physical fire types of our metagame, but both of these abilities have a lot of merits.

 

[escarlata]

Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

First of all, I really dislike abilities that outright boosts damage like Adapability/Sheer Force/Tough Claws in particular because in CAP we can give it the stat spread that allows it to hit the offensive benchmarks anyway.

One thing that makes Fire/Ground stand out is their access of highly reliable moves on both sides of the spectrum. As a primary offensive Pokemon, the most important aspect is probably our defensive list, where a lot of our checks are specifically noted to be "physical only" or "special only", which suggest that an ability that allows 25f to run both offensives effectively, though not at the same time, syncs up very well to our threat list. Because of that, I really like Download in particular because allows 25f to break past our defensive threatlist, while still allowing our defensive threatlist to switch into us if we didn't get the right boost. I also like Competitive more so than Defiant because Defiant can make pure physical sets muscle through Lando-T, while not proc-ing Competitive is more controllable.

Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

It is really difficult to define a role for 25g because its concept is literally "something unique". I don't think there is any ability that is more unique for a Grass type than Flower Veil because all of its current users get literally nothing out of it. Since not many people know that Flower Veil does, it works only on Grass types, making them immune to stat drops and status. Regardless of whether we want to make 25g defensive or offensive, Flower Veil will always have its merit. If we were to build 25g defensively, being immune to Toxic and Burn means it is harder to wear down by passive damage than any other bulky Grass that exists now. Or if we were to build 25g offensively, immunity to stat drops and status allows it to become a boosting behemoth that destroys any form of stall by virtue of its typing that lets it beat all Unaware users.

Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

As for 25w, the available options feels more bland than the other 2 because literally any ability that boosts sustain is a good option. Alternatively, if we focus on the abilities that facilitate crippling rather than longivity, Serene Grace can be super strong when Water/Bug has so many moves with strong proc effects. Alternatively, Infiltration can work too because allows us to proc secondary effects through Substitutes.

 

[Rifou88]

I love the idea of competive (/defiant) for cap25f. It may not have many movepool connections but it goes well with hazards, to force the opponent to defog.

Concerning mold breaker, i'm quite lost. If we can change the threat list, then why did we already made that list? And if we can't change it, then why have that ability so much support?

Lastly, i'm conviced that EE would be better on cap25g than on cap25f because it needs to take hit and survive under 50%, so an offensive mon like cap25f won't be bulky engough. And while cap25g doesn't resist u-turn, it does resist well volt-switch.

 

[Magic Mayhem Maiden]

For 25F, why are we discussing Defiant/Competitive? They make checks/counters such as Landorus-T not a check at all (unless it's scarf). This also includes Gyarados with Intimidate and Moonblast SpA Drop from Clefable. Escarlata said that competitive should be used so pure physical sets should be countered, but then why are you going to use a physical set if the ability is leaning towards special? And I didn't know a time that a physical wall is good at talking a special attacker. Also, these abilities are too situational, like the only other time is Defog, but the only time the ability will trigger is when you catch the opponent on the switch, because why would you defog against the most potent stab combo.
I heavily say no to both of them, especially Competitive.

 

[escarlata]

For 25F, why are we discussing Defiant/Competitive? They make checks/counters such as Landorus-T not a check at all (unless it's scarf). This also includes Gyarados with Intimidate and Moonblast SpA Drop from Clefable. Escarlata said that competitive should be used so pure physical sets should be countered, but then why are you going to use a physical set if the ability is leaning towards special? And I didn't know a time that a physical wall is good at talking a special attacker. Also, these abilities are too situational, like the only other time is Defog, but the only time the ability will trigger is when you catch the opponent on the switch, because why would you defog against the most potent stab combo.
I heavily say no to both of them, especially Competitive.

Because this thread is called Competitive Ability Discussion
Our threatlist specifically mentions that LandoT and Clefable should only be answers to the physical sets. In other words, it means allowing mixed/special attacking sets to break through them is not a problem. In contrast, the checks in our "special only" list do not use moves that drop stats to beat us, means they won't accidentally proc Competitive and get themselves screwed over. In that sense, I feel that Competitive does not mess with our threatlist the way Defiant does.

Especially since you mentioned how potent our STAB combo is, I don't think we need anything more than a conditional ability that changes the way 25f plays when it procs. As for why run physical moves at all if we have a specially offensive ability, physical moves of Fire/Ground generally have higher BP than their corresponding special moves. On top of that, our movepool and stats can be adjusted such that both physical and special moves are viable depending on whether Competitive procs.

 

[Birkal]

1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

I agree that Super Luck is my fave for this. Not too common or generically good, but has move-ability interaction and works well for an offensive mon with a great attacking typing. Sniper works well for the same reason, but in this case, I believe reliability is more important than power. While I love the idea of Merciless, I think fire moves’ burn chance result in poor synergy here. Technician does work well for the kind of utility attacks that Fire/Ground types would have, though is a little more broad than would be ideal for me. Sheer Force works perfectly for an offensive fire type, but as said, is a little generic. We could go the other way with Serene Grace, but while that may be more interesting, it doesn’t fit the role as perfectly. Simple also works really well for an offensive Fire type, but again, not as perfectly. Contrary would also benefit an offensive Fire type, but the ground side benefits less. Compound Eyes/No Guard is another helpful ability for a Fire type, but maybe more for a more tanky one than I suspect we’re going for. Burns are better for withstanding counterattacks, of couse. Download would be better for a Psychic, or better yet, a Dark type. Reckless/Rock Head/Magic Guard, Skill Link and Iron Fist are other abilities that could work, but less well IMO.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

Aroma Veil/Oblivious/Prankster work well for Status users as bulky mon tend to be. Corrosion would be perfect, especially with the STAB trapping moves we could get (I hope that’s not polljumping), though I’ have preferred a Ghost for that. Intimidate/Magic Guard/Regenerator/ work well for a bulky pivot, and Bug makes pivoting hit harder, but the hazard weakness sucks for that role. The latter two abilities make that less of an issue, but the last is a bit generic. Battle Armor/Shell Armor can work well for tanky moves, and Multiscale can similarly help, though Stealth Rock weakness makes that slightly less attractive. Stamina works similarly, and it’d be great to have a good user of that. I do like the idea of Gluttony, but I think Cheek Pouch is even better. It’s basically unexplored and allows some diversity in tanky strategies. Especially for a wall with multiple weaknesses. Serene Grace, Simple and Contrary are all technically capable of being used defensively as well, and it might be nice to see that. Triage also works well for a defensive mon of this typing.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

As cool as the Emergency Exit idea sounds, I don’t think it’s ideal for this concept. As said, Triage is amazing for our typing and lets us move some points from our BST away from speed, which will make things easier for us. Prankster also gives us helpful priority and along with Oblivious/Aroma Veil, helps us use our typing’s useful status moves (admittedly, they don’t benefit from STAB, but still). Compound Eyes/No Guard, Serene Grace and Technician could all help with the interesting move diversity our typing has as well. Another niche could be using Skill Link to get through subs, sturdy (many sturdy mon are vulnerable to Grass), Multiscale and Focus Sash. Or, we could use our Electric side to paralyse and our Grass side to combine a multi-hit move with Stench to paraflinch to death.

Not to beat up on Sereg too much, but I find it difficult to read posts like this in a competitive discussion. When you're making your posts, please consider it within the actual context of the competitive CAP metagame. This post doesn't mention a single Pokemon -- this could refer to PU for all we know. Doing a "spray and pray" post where you regurgitate ability names with no real context or consideration for our metagame is not helpful. I know snake_rattler and reachzero have implemented a policy where you cannot name moves (a great idea, imo), but you can see some really great examples in this thread on how to have a relevant conversation within their restrictions.


I think the conversation about Galvanize is headed in the right direction, especially with how much flexibility it overs us in fulfilling the concept. It is going to need some serious power to rip through all Skarmory and Toxapex sets. And if it's supposed to pressure out Heatran, it better be hitting hard on the first hit. That's why I find Triage so unattractive for CAP 25g; it lacks the basic power that we're going to need to make this thing work. Priority healing is pretty broken as it is, but I also find it pretty one-dimensional. I can only think of a few moves that would benefit it, and even those will struggle to achieve what we want in terms of our threats and counters.

The CAP 25f conversation is headed in a great direction. Mold Breaker and Technician are both adequate without being broken on an already amazing offensive typing. I would love to see us go with Technician specifically, as it allows us to really go all out on the physical movepool we give this thing in order to beat its threats list that we don't beat with basic Fire/Ground coverage alone. I'm specifically looking at Mega Sableye, Tornadus-T, defensive Gliscor, and Levitate Stratagem.


Where we need to pour the majority of our attention, in my opinion, is CAP 25w. As people are becoming increasingly aware, it is difficult to actualize moves with a defensive ability; GameFreak hasn't really given us a ton of tools to do that. As a result, I don't feel that we should stray away from offensively-oriented abilities for our defensive Water-type Pokemon. Common defensive Calm Mind users (Suicune, Clefable, Reuniclus, Latias, etc) are great examples of defensive Pokemon that can become a winning condition. Giving it a way to significantly boost its stats through something like Simple or Contrary is a great idea, in my opinion. I don't think we should fear typically "broken" abilities here either. Magic Bounce is crazy powerful, for example, and I see people bringing it up as a tool to evade Taunt users. While this is true, we also have to make sure we're balancing it in movepool later on, as Magic Bounce offers WAY more benefits than just Taunt immunity.

I don't find the case for Poison Heal particularly convincing. Off of Pipotchi's list above, we should theoretically be faster than all of those Toxic users sans Toxic Zygarde. Between Substitute and Taunt, there are plenty of common options that prevent all of those Pokemon from giving us status. But this is also why I think Prankster is my favorite ability for CAP 25w, it makes our speed tier irrelevant. Priority healing is incredible on a Pokemon that is weak to all forms of hazards, while priority Taunt (and other tech moves, if we want to get cheesy) gives it teeth against other defensive Pokemon so it doesn't find itself as set-up bait. There are so many moves that Prankster actualizes that it seems like a shoe-in for this concept. Through tweaking movepool, we can pressure pretty much everything on our pressure list, including offensive Necturna sets, which I don't think we have a prayer of beating without Prankster. I'm also having doubts about how a Bug-type Pokemon is going to pressure out both Stratagem and Mega Crucibelle without some form of priority; it would need to have serious defensive bulk to survive their STAB Rock-type after hazards.

 

[SuessMD]

I really like LouisCyphre's post as a 'summary' of some of the best abilities discussed so far. This isn't exactly a response to that post, but uses that post as a place to start to avoid repeating what's already been said.

I'm onboard for 25g being Galvanize (or Triage, although I'm becoming partial to Galvanize because I think there's great potential for priority Electric), and for 25w being Poison Heal because I think there exists a niche for a defensive Pokemon that is mostly immune to status conditions that doesn't have a 4x Ice weakness.

I'm struggling with Super Luck, though, because it's so hax-y. I understand how it fulfills the concept, especially if it coordinates with other moves that increase the crit level. But in the world of coordinating setup to create a super-attacker, I'd personally rather explore Simple, which is less chance-based.

I'm under the impression that a lot of people think Simple and Mold Breaker would be over-powered for the niche we want this Pokemon to fit. I'm not at all qualified to judge that, so although they would obviously be great abilities, I'm not going to discuss them any further.

I'm pretty interested in Technician, which I think could be a well-balanced ability that clearly has to coordinate with the movepool to be fully effective, and thus fulfills the concept as I understand it.