CAP 25 - Part 7 - Competitive Ability Discussion

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Korski

Distilled, 80 proof
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Hello CAP it’s been a while. I’ve been lurking in these threads and reading up on the process so far and wanted to add my thoughts to this discussion.
First off, wow it’s tough to put together an argument for coordinating moves with abilities that doesn’t mention any moves by name. I can see in many posts that the more substantive debating is going on on Discord, so forgive me if I’ve missed or overlooked any details that are presumed but banned from this thread.

Now, for the actual commentary, mostly having to do with CAP 25f and what I think is the most pro-concept ability being considered for any of these starters: Sheer Force. I think the enthusiasm for this ability is a little lukewarm because it is an “obvious” choice based on the concept and the offensive direction of this Poke (i.e. a boring choice), or that it’s uncreative because Gamefreak already has a Fire/Groundmon with Sheer Force. These are fair criticisms, but I think in terms of the specific aims of this Project, the good vastly outweighs the bad.

The ability Sheer Force has a demonstrably competitive benefit that is only triggered by a specific subset of moves used by the Pokemon with the ability; we have complete control over which of these moves this Poke has access to, as well as full control over how powerful to make them (this is essentially a rewording of the concept itself). We have a clear offensive framework established that exactly matches the benefits of this ability (especially Type-wise). We have guidance on balancing the power of this ability from established examples like Landorus-I (overpowered), Mega Camerupt/Druddigon/most others (underpowered), and Nidoking/Darmanitan (situationally powerful but ultimately not OU-caliber) when it comes to stats and movepool. We have stat limitations that threaten the viability of each of these starters in a BST-bloated metagame, and this ability helps alleviate that pressure in a pro-concept way, a major bonus over Mold Breaker. No other abilities can check all these necessary boxes imo, which I think ought to be acknowledged.

CAP 25f’s non-Sheer Force attacks like Earthquake and Hidden Power will be weaker with non-monstrous raw attacking stats, but I don’t find that to be a dealbreaker. If anything, even these limitations are pro-concept as they focus the CAP’s power around its use of ability-boosted moves. I personally like the idea of balancing physical vs. special sets by (for example) giving the Poke useful coverage types exclusively on the physical end to compensate for its weaker STABs (Flare Blitz is optional). In this mixed attacker scenario, an Earth Power/Fire Blast set with limited coverage (possibly just Hidden Power and/or anti-Clefable coverage) would be a strong AoA or 3-attacks main set to give the physical sets more surprise value and give the CAP a decent repertoire. Most important, though, is the fact that choosing Sheer Force will engage with and focus each of the remaining process steps around a cohesive build.

In other words, 25f’s success will depend on how optimally we choose to coordinate the movepool with the ability, simple as that. The path from Sheer Force to the concept is a straight line, and I think it would be a mistake to pass on it in favor of much more convoluted strategies with dubious competitive merit like Merciless and Sniper (are we seriously considering designing a CAPmon, one that is intended to celebrate the legacy and history of this forum, around one of the game’s most uncompetitive features?). I don’t know what else to say, Sheer Force is an obvious choice for good reason; don’t make this harder than it has to be (that’s what 25w is for lol).

For CAP 25g, I think the only standout options are Speed Boost and Galvanize, although I prefer the former for its strong movepool correlations, which I actually am not allowed to talk about, and for its help in skirting around our self-imposed stat limitations, similar to Sheer Force. As a bonus, 25g gets SE STAB on HazeHawk, which will make every other stat booster in the tier jealous.

Finally for CAP 25w I fear none of the abilities proposed, besides maybe Poison Heal, will be able to give the Poke any real niche, and I think we should maybe be looking at stronger abilities like Simple that can pair with average stats and a handful of key boosting moves. I’m still pondering this one but I think most of the abilities being tossed around so far are exhibiting an overabundance of caution.
 
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What is it about 25f that needs to considered for Sheer Force that Feraligatr wasn't able to achieve? Is its typing enough? Is its offenses good enough? Is it missing vital coverage, and of so, what?

If we're considering Sheer Force, can we consider Huge Power? that way we can break through the BST limitation and still utilise the moves tacked on effects.
 

Frostbiyt

Not Exactly Helping
What is it about 25f that needs to considered for Sheer Force that Feraligatr wasn't able to achieve? Is its typing enough? Is its offenses good enough? Is it missing vital coverage, and of so, what?

If we're considering Sheer Force, can we consider Huge Power? that way we can break through the BST limitation and still utilise the moves tacked on effects.
25f has a vastly superior typing to Feraligatr both in general and for Sheer Force in particular. As far as Huge Power, I'm pretty sure it's banned and even if it was, 25f does not need to break the BST limit.
 

Magic Mayhem Maiden

formerly CorruptionInTheGovernment
I'm with the Technician Hype. Sure, it might be too good, but with our 535 BST limit, we really do need an ability to be good. I like the moves, because they have speed control with STAB, a berry burner, and other useful utility. I can see it become a offensive utility. If it becomes too good, we could possibly make it mixed attacker and have basically equal stats to both attacking stats, so we can have less offense while keeping defense low. We still keep our checks and counters.
 

snake

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Alright, the long-anticipated slate is here! These are the abilities that will be going to the polls.

CAP25g:
Galvanize
No Guard
Triage
Speed Boost
Regenerator
Reckless
Galvanize has many, unique Normal-type moves to take advantage of and to differentiate CAP25g into a number of different roles, such as a priority user, unique hazard remover, and stallbreaker, but these are generally different roles than current Grass-types.

No Guard takes a slew of inaccurate moves, some of which are coverage that other Grass-types in the metagame do not get, and boosts the accuracy of some utility moves.

Triage allows CAP25 to take advantage of STAB priority moves, but counterplay will be more limited due to the nature of a double STAB priority. The movepool interactions are not as extensive as the previous two options, but it's still a good contender.

Speed Boost has received some good support in the thread, allowing CAP25g to become either a sweeper or a unique offensive pivot.

Regenerator lines up with pivoting and helps CAP25g mitigate its Ground-type neutrality.

Reckless boosts some powerful physical STAB moves for CAP25g, turning it into a powerful physical attacker. Although recoil will be an issue to mitigate, a secondary Electric-type STAB will separate it from other Grass-type attackers.


CAP25w:
Poison Heal
Magic Guard
Triage
Corrosion
Prankster
Stamina
Poison Heal helps Water / Bug's rather unique set of resistances and helps mitigate hazard damage and makes it immune to toxic status, which is important for a defensive Pokemon in this metagame. It has loose interactions with protection moves as well as other utility.

Magic Guard much of the same reasoning for Poison Heal applies to Magic Guard, except it's immune to hazard damage altogether and is free to use an item. It has much looser interactions with moves but that's to be expected of defensive options.

Triage makes another appearance due to priority recovery and a STAB option if we so choose, which a defensive Pokemon will appreciate a lot.

Corrosion allows CAP25w to wear down opposing Steel-types well due to its resistance and Toxic.

Prankster has very good interactions with utility moves, but we will need to hone in on a specific role before we attempt to add every utility move that we can. Nonetheless, it fits concept very well.

Stamina allows CAP25w to turn into a tank and possibly a bulky setup sweeper. With its resistances to common moves, it should be able to use this ability well.


CAP25f:
Technician
Sheer Force
Multiscale
Super Luck
Serene Grace
Compound Eyes
Technician has very good move interactions and is good for an offensive Pokemon such as CAP25f. While it is certainly one of the stronger abilities on the slate, I wanted stronger abilities to have some representation.

Sheer Force is a direct but efficient way to satisfy the concept. It's a good choice, allowing for some extra power behind CAP25f's moves.

Multiscale saw a resurgence towards the end of the thread, allowing CAP25f to act offensively in a defensive manner. We can look at Dragonite to see its shortcomings and attempt to make CAP25f a better user of the ability.

Super Luck is probably the least lucrative of the critting abilities, and I wanted at least one of these to appear on the slate. With STAB moves that synergize will with the critical hit mechanic, this ability is a good contender.

Serene Grace has good interactions with Fire-type moves more than Ground-type moves, but it definitely can have a movepool tailored to it and it can be used well.

Compound Eyes might seem weak next to these stronger options, but it can be serviceable for this CAP, allowing it not to worry about missing moves as much, which offensive Pokemon enjoy.


With that, we now wait for reachzero's approval!
 
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reachzero

the pastor of disaster
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I'm going to -1 Regenerator for CAP 25g, because Grass/Electric is a bad defensive typing and going the"pivot" route seems like a great way to get out-competed by bulkier Grasses with better typing. Otherwise, slate approved!
 
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