CAP 25 - Part 7 - Competitive Ability Discussion

#1
NEW: This is a Celebration CAP, meaning that we are going out of our way to break some rules. We'll be creating a set of three Pokemon this time around, a set of Fire, Water, and Grass-type starters! You can read exactly which rules we'll be breaking here and the logic behind Celebration CAPs here. Give these a read-through to get some context.

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Welcome to the one and only ability discussion for CAP 25! Please pay very close attention to snake_rattler's posts during this thread and remain on topic.

Some general rules for this discussion:
  • Custom abilities are banned. No exceptions. Posts suggesting custom abilities will be deleted.
  • There are ability banlists for the different stages of ability discussion. Posts suggesting banned abilities will be deleted.
  • Flavor abilities do not have any place in this thread. Do not bring up flavor reasoning. Posts that rely on flavor reasoning will be deleted.
The following abilities are banned from this discussion:
Air Lock
Arena Trap
Aura Break
Bad Dreams
Battle Bond
Color Change
Dark Aura
Defeatist
Delta Stream
Desolate Land
Disguise
Fairy Aura
Flower Gift
Forecast
Full Metal Body
Fur Coat
Huge Power
Illusion
Imposter
Moody
Multitype
Neuroforce
Parental Bond
Power Construct
Primordial Sea
Prism Armor
Protean
Pure Power
RKS System
Schooling
Shadow Shield
Shadow Tag
Shields Down
Slow Start
Soul Heart
Stance Change
Teravolt
Truant
Turboblaze
Victory Star
Water Bubble
Wonder Guard
Zen Mode

Battery
Big Pecks
Friend Guard
Healer
Honey Gather
Illuminate
Pickup
Power of Alchemy
Receiver
Run Away
Symbiosis
Telepathy


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CAP 25 so far:

Topic Leader: reachzero

Topic Leadership Team:
EpicUmbreon29 - Typing
snake_rattler - Ability
jas61292 - Stats
cbrevan - Movepool


Name: Starter Trio CAPs

Description: This CAP is not one Pokemon, but three seperate Pokemon, based off of a Grass/Water/Fire starter trio.

Explanation: There is rarely such thing as a competitively viable starter Pokemon in the OU metagame, rare exceptions being Serperior, Greninja, and Blaziken for their insanely powerful abilities, and Infernape for his speed and movepool. Running three seperate CAP Processes with different Concepts can be loads of fun, and a nice way to celebrate CAP with our own starter trio! I'd love to see what the artists can come up with, and what pre-evos will be made alongside this trio, as well.
I've spoken to Birkal about this framework, and I've decided that this framework would definitely limit the Typing stage of each CAP, but not necessarily limit the Abilities stages, as Overgrow, Torrent, and Blaze aren't very competitively viable, and not necessarily limit the Stats stages, as starter trios tend not to share the same BSTs, giving us flexibility with where and how we want to place stats, especially with each "starter" most likely having a different concept from the others.

Possible Questions:
Is it possible to create a fully competitively viable Grass/Water/Fire trio?
What can be learned from a trio of Pokemon that will mostly likely check, if not counter, each other in a Rock Paper Scissors manner?
Exactly what does it take to create a fully competitively viable starter trio, something unprecedented in all of official, competitive Pokemon?

Of course, feedback is all but begged for as we work to flesh out this framework!

Starter Fact Sheet

Final Submission
  • Name - Astounding Ability Actualization (Triple A)
  • Description - These Pokemon each maximize the potential of their given, separate abilities by coordinating their movepools and that ability's competitive effect.
  • Justification - This is an Actualization concept much like Cyclohm's original "Neglected Ability." In my research on what made Pokemon with "Starter Level" stats effective, the common denominator was they all had abilities they used to full effect with their other competitive aspects. This framework gives us a unique opportunity to A-B test some fairly powerful abilities we usually shy away from and bring out an effective competitive starter trio.
  • Questions To Be Answered -
    • Which Abilities are best suited to a full, comprehensive exploration of their specific mechanics?
    • Why does Ability seem to be the common factor in taking "starter-esque" Pokemon into prominence (e.g. Protean and Battle Bond Greninja, Contrary Serperior, Speed Boost Blaziken to Ubers, etc.)
    • What is the threshold where maximizing an ability goes toi far, such as Blaziken's combination of Swords Dance, strong attack and mid-grade speed, and high BP STABS with Speed Boost or Protean Greninja's huge speed and just-varied enough movepool in prior Generations?
    • How will introducing three specialized Pokemon into the metagame at once impact it overall?
    • Which type combinations along with the starter types are best suited to maximizing the potential of a specific ability, and why?
  • Explanation - Competitive Pokemon has suffered from a massive power creep for a long time. In order for a Pokemon to be effective, not only does it have to be fairly good generally, it also can't be directly outclassed. Considering our Framework, our Pokemon are already competing against Heatran/Volcarona, Toxapex/Keldeo/Greninja, and Ferrothorn/Kartana for offensive or defensive roles. However, each of those Pokemon have their own flaws that give our FWG CAP Trio space to explore if we are focused on a key niche for each of them.

    Let's take Grass for example, and Tough Claws. Tough Claws boosts one of the most incredibly CAP-relevant moves, Grass Knot, because it is a special contact attack. Only Mega Metagross ever even came close to utilizing this combination, and Mega-Meta was banned (for other reasons, of course). Grass could also use it's huge number of healing options with Triage, including priority Strength Sap that even outruns Bullet Punch. Nearly every Fire attack has a secondary effect chance perfect for Serene Grace or Sheer Force. Water has a few specific moves that would also love Serene Grace, but would also appreciate breaking through Gastrodon and Mollux with Mold Breaker. Suffice it to say, this concept gives us an ability to meet our Framework demands and think through a huge combination of synergistic types and abilities in a single project.

CAP 25g

Typing: Grass/Electric
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7875516


CAP 25f

Typing: Fire/Ground
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7870058


CAP 25w

Typing: Water/Bug
Threats and Counters: https://www.smogon.com/forums/posts/7872739
 
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snake_rattler

CAP23 Topic Leader, Pun-isher of Evil
is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor
Moderator
#2
Hi everyone, it’s now time to enter the beast of the project, the abilities stage. To recap, each of our staters will have access to their respective pinch ability (Overgrow, Blaze, Torrent), as well as ONE COMPETITIVE hidden ability. While almost all previous projects have had at least two “good” abilities, the ability we place onto each starter will be the ability of choice. You may want to consider the pinch ability to be the “flavor ability” for this CAP - the final projects may be able to use them, but they are certainly not the focus of this project.

Before I get into initial questions, I want to set a couple of guidelines for this discussion. I do not want to see posts naming moves in conjunction with abilities at all. I’ll say it again, I do not want to see posts naming moves in conjunction with abilities, in this thread, at all. You may refer to each starter's STAB move TYPE, opponent moves, etc. Do not use phrases akin to "Sludge Wave + Sheer Force." This is polljumping - we’re here to discuss abilities, even if moves are an integral part of the project. Your post might be deleted and even infracted if you polljump. Stay at the task at hand, which is abilities. Additionally, be sure to check the list of additional banned abilities list found below. These are banned to this project only due to their lack of good ability-movepool interactions. The list was generated during concept assessment.
Dry Skin
Flash Fire
Sap Sipper
Lightning Rod
Motor Drive
Storm Drain
Volt Absorb
Water Absorb
Guts
Flare Boost
Toxic Boost
Bulletproof
Soundproof
Aftermath
Clear Body
Cute Charm
Damp
Dancer
Defeatist
Effect Spore
Filter
Fluffy
Forewarn
Heatproof
Hyper Cutter
Immunity
Innards Out
Inner Focus
Insomnia
Iron Barbs
Limber
Liquid Ooze
Magma Armor
Moxie
Mummy
Natural Cure
Overcoat
Poison Point
Rattled
Rough Skin
Sand Rush
Sand Veil
Shield Dust
Solid Rock
Static
Steadfast
Sticky Hold
Sweet Veil
Thick Fat
Unnerve
Vital Spirit
Weak Armor

That aside, we’re here to have fun and discuss abilities. I’d like to give a couple of initial thoughts. First, the Fire-type starter’s offensive nature should be very easy to achieve ability-movepool synergy, but that doesn’t automatically exclude weaker connections. Second, the Water-type starter’s defensive role will make it harder to achieve direct ability-movepool synergy, and that’s ok - it’ll be a challenge that we’ve set for ourselves. Last, the Grass-type starter should receive its “specialized” role here, so this ability will be rather unique compared to other Grass-types in the metagame.

Without further ado, here are a few questions to kick this thread off. You may name specific abilities right from the get-go!

1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

Feel free to answer as many or as few questions as you wish. You can reply to other people’s posts for clarification, but be respectful and constructive. Again, no naming specific moves in conjunction with ability suggestions.
 
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#3
Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

Defensive abilities are hard to have direct interactions with. The best I personally can offer in terms of abilities maximizing movepool are Magic Bounce, working with all status moves with being untauntable. If you want to be more specific, hazards can be set up without the worry of being taunted before we get the chance. Hazard removal also works wonders with Magic Bounce, as it gives us control of hazards even if we come in while Rocks already are up. You also could do defensive set up with Magic Bounce, although Haze still is an issue. Battle Armor does something similar to that, although it simply prevents crits a la Mega Slowbro. Stamina works in a similar manner, making the setting up process faster. Poison Heal pairs well with any form of recovery. The main issue I personally see with Pheal is that recovery barely varies and that Gliscor has a better type and can easily outclass us.
 
#4
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?
Some options are Simple, Super Luck/Sniper, Mold Breaker, or Merciless and Magnet Pull. In an arbitrary order,

Mold Breaker: Levitate (primarily) and also Flash Fire are relatively common abilities, and Mold Breaker removes their effects, which is an offensive effect that plays well with our fire/ground typing. Unfortunately, the matchups it changes are mostly limited to a few Levitate Pokemon.

Super Luck/Sniper: Fire and ground both have relevant moves, and the ability does help its offense. Besides the existence of relevant moves it is not especially effective wrt its typing. Depending on how it is used, it could be a simple stat-rearrangement, or something significantly more interesting. I look forward to more discussion on these two abilities.

Simple: Our typing has access to a few moves that work with Simple. More than that, though, Fire/Ground coverage is super-effective against much of the metagame, and so 25f will have more opportunity to use stat boosts as it forces opponents out. This ability plays well with both our type and its movepool, so is a good option.

Merciless: This ability has perhaps the strongest type-synergy of any possibility. Only poison- and steel-types can avoid the effect of merciless, but it is precisely those types which Fire/Ground STAB punishes the most. Despite this great boost in effectiveness due to our typing, it's not enough to be overwhelmingly powerful. It helps the CAP effectively play offense by making defensive switch-ins significantly more dangerous, but the set-up required for the opponent to be poisoned keeps it from sweeping with its amazing offensive coverage.

Magnet Pull: I mention this ability only because of its amazing synergy with STAB fire/ground moves. If we were purely maximizing effectiveness I believe this would be the ability to go for. However, I worry it would easily be unbalanced even with subpar stats and movepool, so I cannot recommend it as a good option for 25f.
 
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#5
Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?
I think a unique ability to give to 25g to define it's specialist role is Berserk. I choose this ability since it synergize well with grass typing's healing factor and electric's offensive disrupting power. It would give it a form of set up sweeper role that relies on your opponent's direct damage rather then using your own set up moves on during the turn. Another ability to talk about is No Guard, now this ability can synergize with underused low accuracy moves from electric and grass typing to prove itself as a wallbreaker. Now even though we have Bulu and Kartana to fill this role, the secondary electric typing would help deal with flying types that the latter would struggle.
Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?
Now an ability that can really work well with Fire and Ground's movepool is Sheer Force. Many Fire and Ground moves have secondary effects that have very low chance to proc their effects so you would rather have extra fire power to break through bulky pokemon like Clefable.
 
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LucarioOfLegends

Has both direction and magnitude
is a Pre-Contributor
#6
Woo my favorite stage :D

1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

The generically good Sheer Force, Adaptability, Tough Claws, Analytic and Stakeout all technically have good ability-movepool syngery since they all increase the power of a large variety of moves or moves in general. However, I feel these specific mentions are too broad and wouldn't be very interesting, and would actually hurt the concept, since they just generally increase power of certain moves instead of doing anything interesting with them. Compound Eyes / No Guard fixes an issue that some Fire STAB tends to miss, but it generally doesn't help the ground STAB portions due to thier strongest moves consistently having 100 accuracy. It also has some downright broken possibilities attached to it that could be potentially dangerous.

Honestly, I have no major thoughts about any major ability personally for CAPf, so I'm mostly going at this neutrally. Probably my favorite right now among these is probably Sheer Force, since it effects the least moves and doesn't buff them to ridiculous extents like some of the others, but this opinion can change.

Oh btw, Magnet Pull is an absolutely terrible idea for balance sake in my opinion, as it traps and beats every relevant steel outside of like Naviathan. Hard Pass.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

Defensive abilities are very difficult to find direct interactions with, so a lot of consideration in terms of also helping the viability and utility of them mon is in order. With that, I think that the perfect ability for CAPw is whole heartedly Poison Heal.

Poison Heal, at a surface level, already has at least two somewhat direct interaction synergy with it, one being a move I can't name (thanks polljumping rules) and the other is the protection move category. Both of these directly interact with the ability, with the second helping you stall out healing turns to better increase longevity. Where this ability shines however is in its inferred interactions (as I will be calling them), which aren't directly synergizing with the ability, but help the movepool itself perform better. Poison Heal is able to supply a consistent amount of passive recovery every turn to keep CAPw healthy. By keeping CAPw healthy, it doesn't have to use an actual recovery move as much, saving PP and giving CAP a free turn to actually do something let set hazards or spread status instead of being forced to use a recovery move and give the opposing Pokemon a free turn while you do so. I think that is the beauty behind Poison Heal: it not only has direct move interactions but also can influence the ability to use other moves. I think this is a prime ability.

Stamina is also an option, as it similar helps support by increasing its ability to survive attack, although this time through stats instead of recovery. However I feel this ability has a much less likely chance to suceed when you consider the fact that CAP is a metagame with Tomohawk in it, which we are already weak to, as well as the fact it has very limited direct move interaction. Others I don't really have large thoughts on right now, so I'll wait for more to come up before I get thoughts on them.
 

Granny Pie

Mafia Champion
#7
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

Sheer Force seems to be a somewhat obvious, but still powerful ability that synergizes with Fire/Ground STAB very well.

Many Fire moves have a secondary effect, most often Burn. Sheer Force removes those 10% chance burns in return for a 1.3x stronger (as well as Life Orb recoil-less) attack, and even does similarly with some Ground-type attacks, though notably not as many. Presumably, much of CAP25f's movepool can easily work with Sheer Force, as it's easy to find viable competitive moves with secondary effects and use them to create efficient coverage.
 
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#8
Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

So as an interesting note, we have quite a number of Grass pivots in the CAP metagame, but none of them actually use pivot moves. The only one that has a pivot move is Malaconda with U-Turn, and Malaconda is pretty bad actually. Most Grass pivots are also very slow. This makes sense, because Grass is a very good slow-pivot typing, but slow-pivotting comes with slow Speed stats

One thing I was actually thinking about as far as making a pivot that pivots itself was actually Emergency Exit. With EE, CAPg could simultaneously be fast while also being a slow-pivot. Not only that, but Grass and Electric also have Healing moves, so you could potentially set EE off over and over again. In addition, Electric types tend to get pivot moves as well (Rotom-W and Koko being examples), so your slow-pivot can also be a fast-pivot. Lando-T is one of the very few Pokemon in the tier that can both slow-pivot and fast-pivot, and it can't do it on the same set, which a Grass/Electric with EE and a Choice Scarf absolutely could.
 
#9
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

So, one idea that I've been tossing around in my head for our offensive Fire/Ground Type is Skill Link. I would describe why I think Skill Link is good, but saying literally anything about it will probably get me censored/modded, so...yeah. It's probably obvious what the thought process is, anyway.

Another idea would be Poison Touch. While Poison is normally seen as a defensive Pokemon's way of dealing damage without actually having to attack, I think giving a more offensive Pokemon a way to easily spread Poison around without giving up moveslots could be beneficial. It would help increase the overall damage output, potentially force things to switch out when they might not have otherwise (which, admittedly, does raise concerns about forcing out our counters), and can force the opponent to waste time trying to Heel Bell/Aromatherapy away the Poison. Plus, with the already high likelihood of spreading Burns around, it would give CAP25f some extra utility, helping out any status-dedicated Pokemon on your team, or potentially allowing you to replace them with something else you need.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

As others have noted, finding a good defensive Ability that coordinates well with a Pokemon's Movepool (without being to discuss any potential Moves...) is tricky. While several Abilities exist, we have no idea what we're trying to coordinate with, outside of the incredibly broad Water/Bug STAB we've given ourselves, and the handful of moves that might, possibly, be safe to assume CAP25w might get.

One thought that does come to mind is Prankster. Defensive Pokemon often rely on Status Moves to get anything done, and having priority on said Moves would, potentially, help CAP25w preform its role as a defensive Pokemon, whether that's by applying Status' to the enemy, buffing itself or it's team, or whatever else. While I personally still feel like CAP25w should have some offensive presence, Prankster would be a solid choice if we decide to go the more "traditional" defensive route. On that note, Oblivious would also be a good choice, simply by preventing CAP25w from being Taunted, thus enabling it to use whatever Status moves it might receive.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

So far, the only thing that's really jumping out at me for CAP25g is, as NumberCruncher said, Emergency Exit. Being able to serve as both a fast pivot and a slow pivot at the same time would certainly be a useful niche, assuming we get the recovery moves nessesary to pull it off reliably. If we decide to go the straight offensive route, Galvanize could be effective, especially if we give CAP25g some interesting moves to take advantage of it. I can't say what those moves might be without being censored, but I'm sure y'all probably know what I'm thinking about.

I'm also tempted to suggest Steel Worker, since Grass/Electric/Steel is a far superior STAB combo compared to Grass/Electric, and having a Pokemon that can actually use Steel Worker effectively would be a pretty solid niche. However, this would likely wreck Jumboa and heavily shift the match-ups with our other checks/counters, so I'm not really sure it would be a good idea. I just literally can't think of any other ideas, outside of really generic things like Tough Claws or Adaptability.
 
#10
Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

I don't have a strong opinion on this one so I guess I'm going to agree with Sheer Force being fit for this CAP, although it means we would essentialy make a better Camerupt-Mega. Most offensive-focused abilities are very strong with the proper moves so it won't become unbalanced as long as we don't give absurd stats to CAP 25f.

Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

This time, even though I don't have much ideas of which moves could really pair well with this ability, I'm completely in favor of Poison Heal . Water / Bug is an interesting typing but isn't really ideal against any common Pokemon and curses CAP 25w with a SR weakness, which is moderately reduced by the passive recovery. But moreover, it gives CAP 25w a strong advantage over other Ground checks, as it is much more efficient against Toxic variants of Zygarde which are rampant in this metagame and once you're poisoned you can't switch on Colossoil fearlessly since losing your Toxic Orb won't matter at all. I feel totally safe giving such a strong ability to CAP 25w, and anyway that's how the best starters reach their current level.

Need to think more about CAP 25g for now.
 
#11
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

Sheer force uses the only overlap of the fire/ground movepool, so it will certenly Work. However, i'm not sure that we will learn anything from it.
Simple is also a good option and could be more intresting.
Technicien pair also well with fire/ground movepool since both type have access to a move that have less than 60bp and 100% chance to do something. (Can't be more precise thanks to polljumping rules)

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

Cap25w could make good use of stamina thanks to recovery moves and moves that are boosted by stats boosts.
Even if I really like stamina, I must say that poison heal is a good option because cap25w will otherwise struggle with status. Magic bounce is nice for the same reason.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

I'm really excited about a fast emergency exit user! That ability is bad on golisopod because it's too slow to move before switching, but a fast mon could use it yo move and switch the same turn. That ability will pair well with recovery moves, to make in sort that cap25g use is ability more than once.
 
#12
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

Despite being a very threatening set of STABs when not locked into a move, Fire/Ground coverage opens up to a lot of fifty-fifties when having to choose the right moves.
I could see "will they switch their Heatran on my Specs/Band boosted fire move?" or "Will they switch their Levitate user on my ground-type move?" as a double edged sword for this Pokémon. Being prediction-reliant could be seen as a cool trait for this mon since it would sometimes take very offensive plays to use effectively, but it on the other side of the spectrum it might make 25f very hit-or-miss in its choice of moves and items.
That's why I think Mold Breaker would be a really interesting abilty to have, since it would let 25f click moves more freely and really take advantage of its typing.

EDIT: Merciless is a really appealing ability that would make 25f both very strong and carve a very specific and unseen before niche. This very strong ability would require tspikes actually being up, that balance out 25f overall, expecially considering how wide spread defog is.

Since the core idea for the Project is "Astounding Ability Actualization" I won't be suggesting Sheer Force, hoping that cooler and underexplored abilities could see the light of day. To be fair, not even mold breaker is that cool of an ability, but I'm keeping my other two or three more original ideas for the next two mons on the list.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

This is a tricky one for sure, expecially since we can't discuss its movepool yet. I would have loved if we would have focused on taking advantage of its typing.
One that might take advantage of both is Gluttony, which is, in my opinion, very underexplored, with only Snorlax and Linoone being remarkable users of it. Gluttony would let 25w take advantage both of its very well-rounded typing and of any movepool we eventually decide the mon to give, expecially since 25w is leaning towards a more defensively oriented role.
I hope that with the Gluttony suggestion I didn't break any CAP Guideline, if so I'm sorry, I just want to help out creating the most interesting mon we can.
Poison Heal is a very interesting one too, but doesn't really take advantage of its movepool, I feel, but moreso of its role as a ground-type pivot. I'm on the fence on this one.


3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

I'll be straightforward for once and throw it out immediatly. With Grassy Terrain being very accessible through Bulu's Grassy Surge, I think that Grassy Pelt would be a really cool ability for this mon to get. While nowhere near as broken as Greninja's Protean or Blaziken's Speed Boost, Bulu + 25g could make for a really interesting core, being able to soften each others checks with Bulu's Superpower and 25g's STAB Electric-type moves. Its niche would actually be one of a mid to late game sweeper, which would take the advantage of the added bulk to pull of a sweep.
It would be interesting to see a good user of Emergency Exit, but in my opinion it will be a very difficult ability to work around and use effectively in practice, which might 0
result in a mess. Does sound very usable on a faster mon though, but not very "starter-esque", which is a point that could be made abot my suggestion as well.

EDIT: I'd like to propose Refrigerate for 25g too. It would make 25g carve a very interesting niche between all others grass-type that would further empasize its role as a more specialized 'mon. Having access to STAB boltbeam + grass STAB is obviously unseen before and I think it would be the best option for 25g, both for this cap's concept both for its more specialized nature.
 
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#13
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

With a type that is so offensive, the generally good abilites like Sheer Force, Adaptability, and Tough Claws are the best options.

But i would like to notify that Sheer Force will probably force 25f to be special since that there are no good physical ground moves that can benefit from this ability.

I'm not sure about Merciless and Magnet Pull since they're very strong abilities that combined with this typing, can threaten a vey big part of the metagame.

Mold Breaker seems good for Choice sets, but outside of this i can't see much utility.

In the end, i like Simple because i think it can work well with single stat boosting moves like Bulk Up, Hone Claws, Work Up or Flame Charge, giving it several ways to sweep.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

For a defensive mon there are some option that can help it, like Poison Heal that avoid the status problem and gives it an extra recovery; Magic Guard blocks status and hazard damage negating the rocks damage that creates problems for 25w; Magic Bounce keep off the hazards, status and blocks Taunt; Prankster, instead, favors its own status moves, making it more annoying.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

Galvanize can be a funny option giving the STAB boost to particular attacks like priority or anti-Substitute. Magic Guard is another strong option that blocks status damage and removes recoil from moves and Life Orb.

I can't find No Guard useful because we can simply raise the atk/spa and give it accurate moves to have the same effect AND still have another ability to choose for 25g.

Emergency Exit is redundant since, at 95%, its Electric type will give to 25g the access to Volt Switch. "But the Ground types will block it", Ground types are threatened by the Grass STABs, so this ability will be mostly useless
 
#14
3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

I would like to propose Prankster here. Grass-type is commonly a slow type with an Speed average of 71 and Prankster users have a poor offensive capacity. Grass/Electric has a large amount of moves that benefit from Prankster and combined with a offensive stat spread may create a unique rol for CAP25g: An slow-offensive pokemon (juggernaut?) that can stand in the field when some counter come in and make something usefull before swith out, keeping the momentum for us, a solid offensive pivot that can be different from Tangrowth in so many ways.

I have found a lot of problems to capture my idea trying to avoid poll-jumping and with the language but I hope to have explained well.
 
#15
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?
Sheer Force
seems like a decent option, as many above me have said, but this ability would require 25f to be either mixed or special to effectively utilise boosted Ground STAB. I personally think Hustle would make a great fit for a more physically oriented attacker, being able to boost Fire and Ground's high powered attacks to absurd levels at the cost of slight unreliability. However, by far my favourite option is Mold Breaker as it allows 25f's STAB attacks to avoid several immunities they may otherwise struggle with as well as helping out in other edge scenarios, such as bypassing Sturdy or Disguise. EDIT: Its typing (and likely speed) combined with the ability to bypass Sturdy would also make 25f a decent option as an Anti-Lead, for what it's worth.


2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?
My first thought for a defensive Water/Bug's ability is Regenerator. Regenerator is a great ability for a defensive Pokèmon, allowing it to pivot into attacks it may not otherwise be able to and utilise more passive opponents as opportunities to heal. The typing of 25w is extremely well suited to this role, having strong matchups against offensive types such as water, ground and fighting. Being a reliable pivot into users of these types would give 25w ample opportunity to make use of its movepool, whether that be spreading status or firing off a STAB attack. Another possible but less effective option is Drizzle, which would give 25w a resistance to Fire and more power behind its attacks. The main issue with Drizzle is that it would change the usage of 25w from a defensive pivot/wall to a defensive Rain setter.
 
#16
3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

I think we could explore Triage with CAP25g. This could give CAP25g priority STAB potentially with both Grass-type and Electric-type moves, since both types have healing moves, specifically damaging healing moves, in their arsenal. This would give us a Grass/Electric type pokemon with STAB priority, which could be an effective chipper or revenge killer. We don’t have a Grass-type or Electric-type Pokémon with STAB priority, so this would be a completely new and specialized addition to the CAP meta game.
 
#17
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

I'm gonna vouch for a few 'ere! First off, Hustle. Whilst it might sound like 'generic booster' - and a strong one at that, 1.5x multipliers are pretty hefty, Hustle is unique both in the fact that it has an inherent downside, and the fact that it's downside can inherently be solved within the Movepool - which qualifies it very nicely as a strong ability-movepool interactor.

I'm also going to back Super Luck & Sniper, both of which have lovely synergies on both of 25f's STAB sides, and both of which can be further enhanced as abilities by the rest of the movepool.

Finally, I'm also going to take an explicitly Anti-Sheer Force stance, not only because it's a chronically boring choice, but also because it has chronically low interaction levels with 25f's STAB Ground moves.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

25w's ability is honestly my favourite because Defensive abilities have so much more wiggle room - defensive synergies by their nature care more than just about 'moves do more damage, k?'.

Corrosion is my absolute favourite ability choice here. First, you've got the obvious synergies with 'Anything that inflicts poison', but the indirect synergies are beautiful and varies in their own right.

Corrosion synergises well with move effects that we so very rarely get to see. Moves which literally gain BAP against poisoned targets are perhaps the most obvious somewhat direct, but other synergies remain. Ability suppression allows Corrosion to break through Poison Heal and Magic Guard targets. Any form of trapping becomes inherently more valuable to 25w, as does any form of hazard setting to abuse switches that become forced. Even the bizarre - the moves which remove status on what they hit - become viable to consider when taken in the context of 'we cannot poison a burnt/paralysed/sleeping target'. This short list excludes matters such as recovery and other generic 'stallish' plays, which further help the overall strategy behind Corrosion.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

I think the first point of note is that our 'role' needs to be broader than Anti-Tomohawk Grass Type. We have one, it's called Jumbao. Sorry, just making sure that I've got that written down ^^;.

Grass and Electric are both a smidgen short when it comes to Priority Users - this absolutely makes a case for Triage (something that assists both Grass- and Electric- STAB options) and Prankster (Which by virtue of the fact that we could give 25g any utility move on the planet, boosts a lot of things).

Grass in general is a fairly slow type (with Kartana it's fastest offering at base 109 Speed I think? Ignoring the likes of Necturna after it uses Shell Smash). Something along the lines of Speed Boost could work very well for 25g - not only due to a certain unmentionable STAB option that gains power, but also with moves with effects like Flinching and Attack Lowering, which are found on both sides of 25g's STAB options, and which both absolutely benefit from being faster than one's opponent. I think it'd also be interesting to explore an ability that we know is very strong on a starter, and balance that to the CAP meta without it being overwhelming in the same way.

I'm finally going to toss Reckless into our ever-growing pot. It gives less of a direct niche than the other abilities do, but in exchange it boosts up some pretty powerful moves across both sides of our STAB, whilst also opening up synergies with Healing moves for 25g.
 
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#18
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

An interesting ability to consider here might be Technician. Both Fire-type and Ground-type moves have some really cool and neat move options with secondary effects that just aren't strong enough on their own to be worth merit. However, give said moves a 50% power boost, and we could have a completely new, unparalleled Technician user who gets STAB on some really cool moves. Plus (apologies if this is polljumping) but if we go physical, this would give our Fire-type moves some really good middle-ground power, stronger than base-75 but also without the recoil of the powerful base-120 move.

Technician also opens us up to some really cool coverage options, and, again, if we DO go physical, we don't have to worry about stray Hidden Powers hurting our checks and counters. Think of all the low-powered moves that have awesome secondary effects. Technician could really let us explore these from an offensive perspective, which is exactly what this concept is about.
 
#19
However, by far my favourite option is Mold Breaker as it allows 25f's STAB attacks to avoid several immunities they may otherwise struggle with as well as helping out in other edge scenarios, such as bypassing Sturdy or Disguise. EDIT: Its typing (and likely speed) combined with the ability to bypass Sturdy would also make 25f a decent option as an Anti-Lead, for what it's worth.
you are not the first to talk about mold breaker, but that ability would allows us to pass mega-tios and mega-tias, so it mess up with our check and counter list.

Emergency Exit is redundant since, at 95%, its Electric type will give to 25g the access to Volt Switch. "But the Ground types will block it", Ground types are threatened by the Grass STABs, so this ability will be mostly useless
We are not obliged to give cap25g volt switch just because it is an electric type (for example, stunfisk don't have volt switch) and we certenly won't give it volt switch if it get EE. Moreover, cap25g us not obliged to use a damage move before EE being actived: it can also be used as a setter that won't lose turn of whatever it setted or it can heal teammates, for example.
 

GMars

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#20
you are not the first to talk about mold breaker, but that ability would allows us to pass mega-tios and mega-tias, so it mess up with our check and counter list.



We are not obliged to give cap25g volt switch just because it is an electric type (for example, stunfisk don't have volt switch) and we certenly won't give it volt switch if it get EE. Moreover, cap25g us not obliged to use a damage move before EE being actived: it can also be used as a setter that won't lose turn of whatever it setted or it can heal teammates, for example.
I have been saying this on Discord, but our definition for coordination between our movepool and ability mandates explicitly changing our matchups: "An ability that coordinates with the movepool that has one or more moves that are significantly impacted by the ability to change that Pokemon's match-ups at some point in the game". Our counters/checks will shift after this ability discussion for every one of our starters, and so the counters list should not be used as an argument against an ability at this stage unless that ability would nullify a large chunk of the list. Simply being able to hit Mega Latis (Speed tier aside, in which Surf or just STAB Latis would still function as extremely good checks) should not in any sense discount Mold Breaker from the discussion.
 
#21
I would like to remeber that the core idea behind the CAP 25 project is the "Astounding Ability Actualization", therefore I would encourage people to post something more interesting than just plain Sheer Force for 25f or PHeal for 25w: let's try and be more creative and make good use of underused and underexplored abilities. For example, Merciless is an amazing option for 25f, which, while strong, is balanced by the fact that he needs tspikes actually being up, and therefore being very niche. I will edit my first post adding this ability too, since I undervalued how strong it would be. To be fair its way cooler than plain mold breaker/turboblaze (I know it's banned but its a fire-type, it would make more than enough sense to have the latter rather than the first).

Another very cool ability which I'm absolutely in love here is Reckless for 25g, since both Grass and Electric have very strong moves to take advantage of the ability, but it wouldn't really fit with the "role that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve", sinceother mons like Jumbao and Kartana are filling the "hard-hitting Grass-types" role already.
I would like to put the enphasis on Refrigerate too, since its niche would make use of not only its typing, being able to sport STAB on the coveted BoltBeam, but it would give 25g an edge over all other Grass types currently in the tier. I will edit my first post with this one too, so no worries.
 
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Deck Knight

CAP Triple Crown
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#22
1. Regarding CAP25f, what offensive abilities have good ability-movepool interaction? Which one is the most effective with regard to its Fire / Ground typing and why?

I think the best abilities to both alter some matchups and make 25f unique are Super Luck or Sniper. These operate on the premise of crit-stage, and this is important for a couple of reasons:

In Gen 7 you only need a +3 crit modifier to get 100% crits. Crit-boosting status moves are +2, High crit attribute moves are +1, Super Luck is +1, and Scope Lens is +1.
Any combination of a high crit move and Crit-boosting status gets to +3. The combination of High crit move, Super Luck, and Scope Lens gets to +3.

In so doing, 25f:
- Improves Matchup against Landorus-T (and other Intimidate Pokemon) for physical sets.
- Improves Matchup against hyper offense by bypassing dual screens support.
- Has relevant, sufficiently powerful options for both STABs to use these abilities.

Now, there are Pokemon that have used these kinds of abilities before with varying degrees of success. Absol and Honchkrow suffer from a similar problem in using Super Luck, in that while they have high offense, relying on Night Slash alone for STAB and sometimes a coverage high-crit move is not worth the item slot to compound Scope Lens with their attacks. Additionally they have mediocre defensive typing and/or stats, and in Honchkrow's case a much more consistent ability in Moxie that can compound with other items. Fire/Ground avoids nearly all of these problems at the outset with an immunity, a good set of resistances, good natural coverage and better initial power.

The quintessential Sniper Pokemon is Kingra, whose combination of decent stats and typing can exploit the stat-drop disregarding nature of critical hits to hit impressively hard with its own STABs. Kingdra of course also had very dangerous Swift Swim sets at its disposal, and the Sniper set was more of a surprise set.

For 25f, I think Super Luck is the superior option, however. There is one regular move that increases crit chance by 2, and several Z-Moves of varying usefulness. If using the Z-move, CAP can't run Scope Lens. If CAP runs Scope Lens, it will act as a pseudo-Choice Band that lets you switch attacks for it's high-crit STABs and coverage. Additionally it can use either +2 crit stage move to get to the +3 crit stage necessary in Gen 7 for 100% critical hit chance.

While Sniper has impressive damage outputs, it lacks consistency without setup and can be largely replicated by an appropriate boosting move. Super Luck's possibility for abuse without setup and better compatibility with both physical and special STABs makes it the better option. While Super Luck + Scope Lens could go fishing with non-high crit moves, Life Orb or Choice Items with those moves are more consistent for the resulting trade-off.

2. Regarding CAP25w, what defensive abilities can take advantage of ability-movepool interactions? If the ability cannot create direct interactions, how does the ability enable CAP25w’s movepool to be used to maximum potential?

I'm going to sound like a broken record here, but defensive abilities do not need to lead to passive play.

While I am loathe to advocate for it with so many CAP relevant bulky waters having it already, Bug and Water STAB's plethora of on-contact debuffs makes Regenerator an incredibly sound option. We have already seen what good Regenerator does in mitigating a Stealth-rock weak pivot like Tornadus-T, what CAP's typing does is add STAB to pivoting moves, debuffs, and other rather infamous utility options.

On that note, Serene Grace also enhances much of this utility as multiple Bug and Water moves have non-100 effect chances with varying strength. Water has status inflicting,and stat lowering options, Bug has different status inflicting, flinch, and stat lowering options.

Wonder Skin is not presently seen on any viable Pokemon, much less in CAP, but has scary potential for utility with only a basic support movepool backing it. Evading Toxic, Taunt, and other direct status attacks half the time is a huge benefit to a defensive Pokemon that can't be overstated, and robs many opponents of the consistency they would need to address 25w. The only real downfall is the ability itself is inconsistent in this level of defense, but in the case of non-volatile status, the ability to remove without a high likelihood of re-infliction is a huge advantage.

3. Regarding CAP25g, what are some roles that current Grass-types in the CAP Metagame currently do not achieve? What abilities facilitate this new role? How does Grass / Electric typing help CAP25g execute this role?

Grass types in CAP are oddly weather-centric, or else mostly fill defensive or tank roles. Jumbao has pushed the first category to an extreme, even bringing back Malaconda to an extent because it is such a good Sun setter. Tangrowth and Tapu Bulu often act as tanks, and Pyroak is a more traditional wall model with undeniable utility. And then there is Necturna, an incredible setup sweeper.

One of the niches Grass doesn't really have though is as a priority attacker or revenger killer. Scarf Jumbao is a set, yes, but Jumbao has so many other consistent sets.

To this end, Triage, Prankster, and Galvanize provide 25g with access to relevant priority and other tactics that will improve its matchups. Triage is the most powerful and controversial of these, boosting the highest number of STAB attacks and status moves among these choices. While Prankster Grass types exist, none truly use it to maximum offensive, defensive, or pivot potential. Galvanize's utility and accessibility in expanding Electric's movepool can't be understated, and it has many, many more options than the readily apparent priority, including hard punishes to status, stat-debuffing moves, and even combinations with its many paralysis-inducing STABs.
 
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#23
you are not the first to talk about mold breaker, but that ability would allows us to pass mega-tios and mega-tias, so it mess up with our check and counter list.



We are not obliged to give cap25g volt switch just because it is an electric type (for example, stunfisk don't have volt switch) and we certenly won't give it volt switch if it get EE. Moreover, cap25g us not obliged to use a damage move before EE being actived: it can also be used as a setter that won't lose turn of whatever it setted or it can heal teammates, for example.
I might not need to do damage, but for taking damage it needs to be enough defensive for tanking a hit and since grass/electric is not a so good typing we will forced to work heavily in its defenses in order to make it bulky enough to activate EE and survive an hit when <50% to use a recovery
 
#24
Technician has already been mentioned but again it gives the option of running moves that have secondary effect that can be taken advantage of as well as avoid some issues with powerful moves such as inaccuracy and recoil.

Also mentioned are the ate/ize abilities. They expand the move pool options due to some of Normal types versatility and potentially give a psuedo STAB for a third option.
 
#25
I think that -ate/-ize abilities are better for the CAP25f than for CAP25g. Fire/Electric and Fire/Ice managed to get a lot of votes in past steps of the process and an offensive Pokemon with 2.5 STAB types is something to consider. Refrigerate is the most broken option because it allows us to hit super effective those Dragons with Levitate and other Ground types such us Lando-T and Gliscor. Galvanize is also very powerfull, hitting super efective vs Water (principal counter) and some Flying-type such us Zard-Y and Mega-Aerodactyl. However, I think Super Luck is much more appropriate (Deck Knight made a fantastic explanation of it) and it doesn't imply problems with the design and bio consistency.
 

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